Does this trend of dressing up little girls for pop stars bother you?

What drives you nuts about Britney Spears? Or do you want to defend her? Do you think that parents should do whatever it takes to make their child a star?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Answers

By the way, the real reason for this post is that "Baby, One More Time" woke me up this morning. Consequently the damn song has been in my head all day. I thought maybe if I worked through my demons a little then the song would subside. It hasn't worked yet.

God help me, that stupid song could continue on this loop for the next seven hours or so.

Oh God.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

I hate Britney Spears. You know, she's cute and all, but no where near the idea teen. The only thing she makes me think of is how guys (like my boyfriend) drool over her 17 year old ass.

Him:
Yeah, I like her song... Hit me baby one more time!

Me:
Are you sure it's not because she looks like a little school girl and you think she's hot? It's like that whole thing with Shania Twain too, right? She's 'not hot or anything' - you just really dig the music, right?

Him:
No way! Her voice is awesome. I think she's ugly though. No way I'd ever do her. Just listen to her lyrics. Shhhhhhow me how you want it....la la la.
That's what I'm talking about.

Me:
Huh?

Him:
Nevermind. You just don't get it. She's awesome.

Die, Britney Spears, die. You're making men into walking drool factories.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Poor Pamie! Consider waking up to a different radio station because, honsetly, the only way you are not going to hear the same processed shit (Third Eye Blind, Britney Spears, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, Whitney Houston- UGHHH!!)over and over again is to maybe put on the classic rock station every now and again. I find that even my "modern" rock radio plays the same crap over and over (Korn - open eye, insert hot poker). Sometimes it's just really good to hear some old rock n roll. :)

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Luckily I don't get any pop songs on my station.

Uh, my response to this is this: Jeane Bennet Ramsey.

If they don't get sexually molested and killed before they reach their teens, we give them implants and lipo to make sure men improperly oogle them as an underage teen. And all for the parent's own egoistic self esteem.

This all goes to the school shootings. A decay of parental responsibility and thought for their own children. They don't raise themselves, people.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

I wish my parents did what it took to make me a teenage star. There are worse fates.

And I seriously doubt they forced her to get implants or she'd be grounded. It's not like they're not removable, either, if she changes her mind.

You just wish you were her, is all.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Every day of my life I wish I was Britney Spears.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

i don't know her song, i've only seen a snippet of her video...so i can't say 'i hate her'. i will say that i think it's parentally irresponsible to 'allow' a 17 y/o to get implants - or any cosmetically altering surgery. it's actually, disgusting.

how DO young girls 'compete' with something like that? and how do the younger girls learn that the body you are growing into is OK...

i am not against titty jobs - i personally, wouldn't indulge myself...that's only b/c i am comfortable in my skin. no, i'm not saying that i don't cringe with female envy when i see a heidi klum - minus the wandering eye - flash in front of me on tv or a magazine or walking the street...but i do take a certain 'comfortable pride' when i see someone like tyra 'implants' banks or stephanie 'implants' seymour...ok, they're beautiful - but they needed the implants to give them the extra boost of confidence, sexuality and desire from the gawking society we live in. - obviously, or where would they be?

i don't know if i've gotten anywhere with my 'point', so i'll wrap things up. i think it's disgusting to see a 17 y/o use her not-yet-fully-developed assets to push herself forward in life. i think it's irresponsible of parents when they don't help their children through the awkward stages of puberty and young adulthood. i think it's selfish of them not to draw from their own memories of what they went through as teens and young adultsi think parents need to be more of a role model to their children.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

If she's 17 I'm the King of France! There is no way in hell she is a teenager. She's at least 25, anyone can reinvent their past (for example: Ice T).

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

I don't care what she looks like. Has no one noticed that she has maybe the worst voice currently being perpetrated on the masses? Hello? What is that ridiculous accent she is trying to pull off? I would try to spell out the words but there aren't letters for the sounds she makes: "It's not the way I plahhyyhned in...Oh babehya babehya..." What? Does she need some speech therapy is what I'm asking...? "Show me how you want me to be..." I just want to hear you sing outside of the studio - and I want you to get a pronunciation guide for the English language. Don't worry Pamie - this one will also fade away. Think Tiffany, think Debbie, think the myriad of others who have been on the cover of Rolling Stone and were never heard from again.

They all had insane little fan clubs too - and all those people are embarrassed now. Oh - and as for 'N Sync (sheesh...) and The Backstreet Boys, I've got three syllables for you: "Me -nu- do."

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

1. Tiffany 2. Debbie Gibson (currently Deborah) 3. Samantha Fox 4. Hmm....This was supposed to be a comprehensive list of girls who became famous for having hot, luscious "musical talent," but I can't remember the other ones. Sort of the point I was going for, actually.

Did anyone see that Jennifer Love Hewett video? Har! They actually had the gall to make her jump up and down! I couldn't believe it. I had to go back and forth, still-framing the tape, over and over again just to make sure I was properly outraged.

Derek

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

I had forgotten about Samantha Foxx. But I think she was "of age" since she was in all those movies and all.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

You know, I'm sitting here trying to understand you women. Do you ever see guys sitting around going, "oh man did you see so-and-so taking his shirt off and exposing those obviously steroid induced pectoral muscles? Oh, I hate him. It's so outrageous and he'll never amount to anything, etc.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

No, you call him gay.

And if you noticed, it's not just women posting to these pages.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

Hello Joe? Being a girl these days is all about competition. This is why we're annoyed. Britney is telling little girls that we're supposed to look like Barbies and we're supposed to be forever miserable without a man. Ugh.

I agree with Pamie, the Spice Girls had a better message, even if it was totally fabrica

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

pamie, do you know how hard it was to try to hide the pictures of britney spears while reading your entry? i looked like i was reading the britney spears fan club page. perish the thought.

my husband bought the cd single, he claims for the music and not for the interactive cd or trading card enclosed. yeah, right. men are drooling over this girl left and right. fact remains, she's just that. a GIRL. not a woman. not nearly of age. and she should not be going out and getting implants and lipo and perpetuating this whatever-you-want-to-call-it that if you have big tits and a flat stomach, you can do anything. i don't, and i've done very well for myself. why not show pictures of me or any other woman on tv saying, "i'm not perfect, but i can still succeed". i think that would be a much better message to send to todays girls.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

My views on this issue are a bit conflicted. I think it is very disturbing that 17 year old Spears has breast implants, but let's face it--she's not the only one. It's a bad message for teenage girls, but that message is everywhere you look. It's on television, in magazines, movies.. That perfect woman is supposed to be thin and tall and well-endowed and yadda yadda yadda. How many of us fit into that Barbie mold? (How many of us want to?) Spears is symptomatic of a deeply ingrained mentality. And personally, I don't think that the Spice Girls were much better. Don't tell me their bodies didn't have anything to do with their popularity. The shock comes not from the idea that someone had plastic surgery to fit into society's ideals of beauty, but that that someone is so young. I'm really amazed that her parents and plastic surgeons let her do it, but sadly, I'm not surprised that she'd want to. The intense pressure to fit in, and the inevitable insecurity that accompanies teenagehood.. It's a vicious cycle because she has surgically changed herself to fit into the mold, instead of challenging the mold itself, and in doing so, because she IS famous and a "role model", she is (implicitly) advocating conformity.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

In all fairness, Pamie said that the rumors of her getting implants is unconfirmed. A lot of people are getting worked up over what may be nothing.

Other than that, does anyone remember that episode of Speed Racer, where Spritle and Chim Chim stowed away on the Mach 5? You know, that episode? And when Speed is captured, Chim Chim just walks over and unties him, because no one thinks a chimp is just going to come along and set him free?

I wasn't going to comment on this topic, but I just had this brain flash of Brittany Spears stowing away on the Mach 5, and not understanding Speed and Trixie's pleas to set them free.

Speed

C'mon Girl! Untie the knot! You can do it!

Trixie

It's no use Speed! She's just sitting there with her chin in her hand, smiling at us! Untying us is beyond her comprehension!

Speed

I know ... is she hot or what?

Trixie

If we ever get out of this, I think I'm going to see what Speed Dentist is up to.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

This is what happens when you listen to the radio. I hardly ever know who these horrible people you mention are, and I think I'm glad.

But I still hate Britney Spears because she's yet another example of people who can't even spell their own goddamn names.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

"you wish you were like her", Joe? Just like a man. I wish I could be more coherent, but this is wrong. Shania Twain is thirty-something. Britney Spears is a child. Period.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 1999

What? Is no one else going to comment that the child can't sing? That is the actual outrage! Not only is she jostling around in a "Do Me, Any Pedophiles Out There" Catholic school girl uniform, she is violently offending the musical sensibilities of America's young people. And she's making 10 tons of money which will no doubt be squandered by her managers/parents/pimps. And in a few months we will see her on "Where Are They Now?" on VH-1.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

I agree. The child can't sing a note. I think that if her CD had been released with absolutely no pictures in it, if nobody knew what Britney Spears looked like, then she wouldn't be popular at all and we wouldn't be burdened with that awful song. "Show me how you want it to be"? "My loneliness is killing me"? Ummm..yeah. Girl Power. Get a guy or you'll die. What a great message to send young girls today, not to mention "you'll never be anyone important cause you'll never look like Barbie".

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

I don't know from Britney's boobs...but if it's possible to have a tongue job, she has had a tongue job. That big ol' thing flapping around in her mouth makes me wonky. Check out her videos, the tongue is flicking in and out and lolling about in her oral cavity in a very nasty way...go ahead and look, but know that once you have seen the serpent that is her tongue - you will be very very sorry.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Wow. I thought I was the only one who noticed how funky her mouth was shaped (and that tongue of hers, phew!). Now, my S.O. has a tongue that will go past the end of his chin when he sticks it out all the way (*grin and giggle*) but "Britney" Spear's tongue is really... Orca-like. I swear, it makes me think of the time I went to SeaWorld and the killer whale came part ofthe way up onto that deck thing with 3" of water and the trainer was patting its tongue. Big thing like a huge cut of pink, fleshy rubber. Y

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Jennifer: The issue is not so much the RUMORED boob job but just the whole 17 year old beautiful child star with perfect teeth thing. I would think Pamie reserves the right to hate Britney even if the boob job rumors turn out to be false (as I suspect they are). To suggest that Pamie is jealous of someone because of their boob job is quite ridiculous ... all things considered ... ahem. Anyway... if y'all want to slag Britney Spears, feel free. However, I hardly think you're fooling anyone by hiding behind the societal responsibility and role model crapola. Britney is a hot babe, she's using her hot babe body to gain exposure and sell albums, and you would too, if you could.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

why is it that everytime a woman expresses a negative toward another woman, men automatically assume "jealousy, there ya go.. you just wish you could be like her."

wrong! what i wish is that girls could grow up being happy and PROUD of their uniqueness, not striving to live up to plastic perfection. however, as long as there are girls like britney running around, i don't see that happening.

there is nothing wrong with wanting to make the most out of what you have. we all know that britney is not the first (nor will hardly be the last) to capitalize on looks. but what ABOUT talent? are we telling our daughters that it's ok if they sing like shit, as long as they look good? they don't have to be smart, as long as they are pretty.

we might as well tell them not to even worry about their personalities, or intelligence. "just smile and lick your lips, dear, you'll have a man to take care of you in no time." ugh! that is, until he divorces her to chase after the next hot young thing in implants.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

First things first. Debbie Gibson (yes, it is Deborah now) wrote her own lyrics, her own music and could play an instrument to boot. While this in itself isn't that big a deal for thousands of other musicians, it does set her apart from all of the other teeny-bopper, formulated money makers-- even the Spice Girls. Plus she's very nice. Now that I have made everyone question my own taste (i never said i liked her music) and sanity, let me say that the mass transformation of Mickey Mouse Club kids (who were quite annoying enough without heavy rotation on MTV and radio, thank you very much) is what's scaring the hell out of me. I'm not even sure they're human. They could all just be a bunch of animatronic robots from the Hall of Presidents at Epcot that they slapped some different heads on. That would explain Britney's dancing. That would also explain mop-headed space boy from 'N Sync-- those aren't dreads or braids, they're power cords. Then there are the songs themselves. i only watch the videos or listen to the songs enough to make fun of them; you have to know your enemy. i don't know what song and i can't even be sure which boy-group it was, but it was a live performance and it went a little something like this: Bad-boy rebel of the group who is of course the designated rapper for the 'breakdown': "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! Party people let me hear you say 'whoa'! Say 'whoa'! Throw your hands in the air! Wave em like you just don't care!" Then he breaks back into the 'song'--"Am I originaaaaal?" (Which, since I can't put the notes up here for you, sounded frighteningly similar to Another Bad Creation's "Iesha" -- "We ate cereaaaaaal") Now, for those of you who might not know, the answer to the moody heartthrob's question is a resounding no. While my first memories of "Throw your hands in the air" go back to Cameo circa '85, I have it from good sources that this actually started with James Brown. Even if we were to assume that perhaps this Franklin Mint reproduction of Donny Wahlberg were meaning "Am I original in the sense that I am a white guy from the suburbs saying 'party people let me hear you say whoa'?", the answer would still be no with the reason of, well, Donny Wahlberg (or his Funky Bunch-firing brother). My rather long-winded point is this: there will always be crap. People will love to buy it because they are told to. If it's got catchy beat, is played incessantly and has a cute package, chances are some old, fat horribly un-cool producer will make a hell of a lot of money off of them. That assures they will never go away. I thought the New Kids were dead-- I really hoped they were, at least. Turns out they were just hibernating, lurking in the basement of some record exec. until the musical taste of America dipped to level where they could make a comeback. "Yes, we've got a Menudo sighting, release the cutest two to test the waters!" But if it makes you feel any better, for every one salivating fan of Britney or the Backstreet Boys, there are two people who pray for their death and three old people who are just scared and confused by them.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Yes, that is definitely the most annoying song so far this year. At least the Spice Girls were somewhat ironic - their movie is actually geniunely funny in places (there goes my cool rating).

I agree with Rich - parental responsibility is sadly lacking when parents are letting their children carry on like this, if not actively encouraging it. Kids are definitely growing up at a young age these days - my 6 year old niece wants to be a Spice Girl, and my 3 year old niece will only play with Barbie dolls. Is it just me, or is the idea of a 3 year old child relishing the thought of dressing a buxom blonde somewhat strange?

Samantha Fox getting mentioned caused me some painful flashbacks - when I was 17 I had a flatmate who was obsessed with her - he had her overblown figure and horrid pouty features plastered all over the flat and tried to justify it by telling us how much he loved her music. Sadly her breasts were the most talented thing she had (similar to Britney and her navel).

And Big Joe - I can't believe the cliched 'lust over the supposedly impossible female form' kind of bloke really still exists. Do you think she'll be looking quite so hot when she's 24 or 25? She's a little girl, and at the age of 16 (with the help of hair extensions, a make-up artist and some fake tan) I could have been her (I can't sing, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement here). I didn't get hips until I was 20. She won't look like that forever.

This has been great. If anybody wants to start discussing how ridiculous the current trend for super-long hair is, I'm available. I'm also free to make fun of Gwyneth 'Crybaby' Paltrow.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

ManOman, so much to say, so many closed minds. So I won't waste my time. A smart girl used a great quote on her site and I'm stealin' it. "Be the change you want to see in the world"-Mahatma Gandhi If this quote offends you at least THINK before you type a reply. WHY do you think it was aimed at you? Have I named any names?(besidesMG) Maybe it was meant for the person with an opposing veiw to yours. If you are saying "I know confucious boy 'aint talkin' to me" then maybe I am. Just THINK!!-Please!

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Um, Lee - you may not want to waste your time, but you may have to spend a little more time on your message, because I for one couldn't make head nor tail of the last one.

So why don't you get crazy on it, SAY what your TALKING about, WHO you're referring to, and WHAT you THINK about it all. Please!!!

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

I'll THINK about it.*big'olgrin* No really-I'm nonconfrontational. Is that a word? I just really hate to be misunderstood and I know that I can't adequately convey what I might or might not be feeling. I am a man after all.:-) What do you expect? Which does bring me to one point(finally) Not much at all apparently(expectations from a man) Which is a sad thing. Y'all will have to forgive me I'm kind of a-type as I think it guy- which can be disconcerting(how 'bout that? is that a word?) Anyway, I'll try to focus and be less vague. Staying awake for 80 hours straight and then typing opinions on others opinions probably isn't the smartest thing I've done this year. I'll have to get some sleep and try again. By the way, my wife Loves Britney. Me? I would like to hear her sing live before I comment on that.I like what I hear so far based on a intimate knowledge of studio magic. I do think that she is to young to be so lucky.Yes, luck is in the eye of the beholder. And No. I couldn't have explained myself in the time it took to blow all this hot air; believe me.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

well, i finally saw her - britney - on leno lastnight.

is THAT what the 'hype' is all about? appearances aside, she can't sing. i mean, she really can't sing. and it looks like she was lip synching the whole thing - which is perfectly normal on a show like that - but even that, a supposed studio recording, sounded like ass. and she can't dance. she looked all stiff, she looked like she was just practicing the moves - not giving it her all. my boyfriend said it was probably b/c she was in pain from the titty job.

he also couldn't refrain from saying how dumpy she looked, what was up with her nose, the fake tan, hoe dumpy she looked. i had to keep reminding him that she is only 17. she still has baby fat...she is still growing...she is trying to portray herself as a woman, when she is just a girl...and it is working cause my b/friend kept mistaking her for a woman...a dumpy woman with no dancing talent and no singing capabilities.

i take offense to some of the 'men' of the board saying that us women who are 'complaining' about this girl, are jealous. jealous? are we not allowed to express our opinions without hearing a viscious cat meow in the not-so-far distance? i agree with saying that it is rediculous for women to 'hate' someone like britney, especially if they've never heard her sing or speak or have even seen her...that's a little ignorant. but jealousy? you insult me with your ignorance and lack of intelligence or creativity by not being able to come up with something better than the age old fantasy of a cat fight.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Arrrggg! can't sleep-might as well type-did I mention I hate typing? Ok, I'm opening myself up here like a big target. Get your arrows, stones, and clubs ready. Don't say I didn't warn you because I'm probably going to piss everybody off. That is not my goal-I just want folks to think. First of all "being a girl is about competition"?? I do not even know what to say about that. I can't hardly believe you are serious. Please don't have a daughter.

When I was a teenager going through teen things I wrote several songs about loss and loneliness and wishing that special someone would come along to ease my loneliness; and I liked listening to songs that put words to my insecure, ineloquent boymones. They didn't perpetuate anything in me except that I could explain myself better and I felt that at least someone understood, however misplaced this was. No, I won't buy that this was because I was a boy not a girl.

In case you havn't figured out Britney is not what I'm stirred up about. She is just the convenient example. Everyone seems to think that she is sending some message or perpetuating some myth; that Be Barbie-Get a Boyfriend-or DIE--is her mantra. Please think about what you are saying. There are so many things wrong with people talking about how young she is and then attributing this supposed goal to her. She is not a role model-she is a moneymaking tool at best so far. (her personal life aside) She is not advocating anything. She is a entertainer. We have a entertainment culture to entertain us. Not provide role models. She is most likely about success, money, and fun. She has said that she is doing what she has wanted to do her whole life. We are not in a place to judge if she is telling the truth. I'm certainly not. If her birthday is correct then she is actually 18 now, right? We will find out soon enough if she is happy with what she is doing. I for one hope that she is happy because if she is not it could just destroy her soul; like the many before her.

We choose our role models; they don't choose us. We should give our teens more credit for this. I am around lots of kids-they like this stuff-just like we liked our stuff. 99% of these kids (where I live) are not affected by it that much. Should the other 1% dictate that no unhealthy images should be in music, drama, and any other public forum? No-that is just silly.

Don't assume that men automatically assume anything. It makes you look like the dorkboy who does assume stupid stuff. Joe, don't make ignorant goading statements just to bait people into arguing with you just like I'm doing now- It accomplishes nothing just as my statement accomplished nothing but to irritate you-right?

Girls can and do grow up being happy and proud of themselves. Aren't y'all unique and proud? Don't tell me that you didn't have your Britney's and Barbie's to deal with. Lets Hope "we" aren't telling our daughters that they should emulate Britney. Let's hope that "we" are showing them where to look to get across what we want to teach them.Like Mom, hopefully. We have to provide the positive role model in their life; not try to tear down someones misplaced trust in a faulty role model. That will only alienate them. Parents should be guiding and having more of an influence on their kids lives than Britney Spears. If they aren't then they only have themselves to blame. Not society,school,TV, or the internet. I like what Rich said- they don't raise themselves- and he is right. If the parent doesn't, Britney will---don't blame her--blame the parent. When I was a wee thing who did I look up to? My Dad--because he wanted me to? Not really. Because I was smarter than the other kids?--No, not by far. My Dad was a good man that people genuinely liked. So I wanted to be a good man and have people like me to. I guess that is where Gandhi comes in. Your actions speak louder than someone elses words in the long run where it really counts. Believe it. Yes, it was that simple. He loved me and gently showed me how to be my own unique person TOTALLY different from him, but still a good man and a happy, well- adjusted adult. Ok. I'm done. Please try not to be offended. I'll go to bed now, and you can type me into oblivion. >8^D>

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Lee--

You're right. Ultimately it is up to the parents to teach their kids what a role model is or isn't. It seems hypocritical for me to say, "Britney Spears shouldn't be allowed to dress that way, she's a terrible role model" and then on the other post say, "How can anyone blame Marilyn Manson. What fucking idiots."

I still say there's a difference in age, though, and that Marilyn is an adult, and you can explain to a child that when they grow up they can decide if they want to wear fake boobies on their spandex clothes, but that Britany says that they should start wearing fake boobies on their spandex clothes earlier.

I can't believe I just drew a connection between Marilyn Manson and Britney Spears and the connection was fake boobies. That's America for you.

Kids are influenced by so many things, and often times as a kid you start listening to your friends more than your parents. My best friend dressed in clothes that weren't exactly suited for a thirteen year old. Often times boys thought she was at least sixteen. I thought my parents were being stupid for saying that she was dressing above her age. It made her cooler that she wore sexy bras. It made me less cool that I didn't have one. it was that simple. Seeing it on the television only stresses that my parents must be so "not with it" and wrong.

I'm not mad at Britney. I just find it amazing that this is what we pass off for "entertainment" these days. Music isn't about the music, it's about the look. I just miss musicians. That's why I like my Radiohead and Foo Fighters. It's not an image, it's the music.

If Britney is happy doing what she's doing, which she says she is, then that's great. But we've seen a lot of teen idols grow up and say how miserable they were being put in the situation they were in. They had to grow up so fast. These days there's a lot of pressure to grow up fast. We don't have many actors/musicians/athletes who stay kids. They all have to grow up and be role models and think of their fans all the time.

I just think it's a lot of pressure for someone so young. Not everyone is Jodie Foster (who dressed like a prostitute when she was a kid in a film) or Brooke Shields (who dressed like a prostitute when she was a kid in a film).

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Jackie wrote: "I can't believe the cliched 'lust over the supposedly impossible female form' kind of bloke really still exists."

Surely you jest. EVERY guy absolutely dreams about doing a girl like Britney. Young, pretty, skinny, and with big tits. Any guy who says he doesn't is lying. It's that simple. Who cares how she looks when she's 30? Guys will find a new bimbo to lust after. (Ever hear of Playboy magazine? Did you think guys were buying it for the articles? Ha! Obviously your man has you fooled...)

-----

Pamie: Okay, okay, I admit the whole Britney thing makes me sick. Happy? But the whole "she's a bad role model" thing, that's where you lost me. The thing is, young girls don't want to be Barbie because Britney is. They want to be popular. How can you be popular if you're just average and happy about it? Being happy with who you are might get you happiness (assuming such a thing were possible), but it doesn't get you what you really want, which is popularity. People are always going to try and be whatever the current societally coveted version of beauty is, and let me assure you, it will never be 'average'. Never.

As for music being more about the look than the music, well, welcome to the MTV era. Music is about one thing, selling records, and MTV is a powerful marketing tool.

You think Radiohead and Foo Fighters are not about image? Ha! Guess again. Their image is that they have no image. This 'non-image' gained popularity with the grunge era as a backlash to the big hair glam bands of the early eighties. If appearing to have no image is going to sell you records then that is what the record companies are going to deliver. And it appears that, for you anyway, the non-image image is working.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

Yeah, the friend factor is big I must admit. I think my parents always wondered why I was so uninfluenced by 'friends',but never examined it to close because they were just glad I wasn't. Why? I guess because I saw early on that I was generally happy and my friends weren't. I had a pretty secure self image before boymones took over. Of course when I turned 18 I went nuts! But that is normal too. I finally settled down to happy again.

It is definitely not a good thing that a lot of kids feel the very real pressure to grow up so fast. I was impressed by Hanson(however much I don't like them) pretty much sticking to their maxim to just have fun and be kids. I imagine that the pressure is on them by some record exec. to take it to the next level already. Johnny Lang is another young talent, but I'm not sure what is going on there except that he is extraordinarily talented. It is funny that we seem to want to make a big deal out of young talent. Is it because we wish we could have had recognition for our talents when we were that age? I surely don't know. But if I had to choose between Lang and Clapton-- Clapton would be the MAN! Of course, as well, I have used guy examples. Are girls different? Society has surely invented more ways for the ladies to change their appearance that is for sure. Let's forget fantasy for a moment though. I know that I prefer a lady that is comfortable being makeup free and boob job free, ect.... My wife is a beautiful woman when she chooses to fix herself up, no doubt.But she has finally seen that I feel the same about her when she isn't 'fixed'. I really do not think that I am that unique. A vast majority of my friends pick the 'real' woman to be with not the fantasy that maybe is or probably isn't what you see. I'll admit that I thought that I wanted a tall blond thing(after all I'm tall and blond, and I was thinking of kids) :^) until my smart wife came along and changed my mind resoundingly. By the way, Baby one more time is an excellent studio song. The proof is in the fact that when you hear it you can't just get it out of your head. Try Roger Miller's King of the Road or anything by Loverboy-working for the weekend and such.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 1999

... and Joe wrote:

"Surely you jest. EVERY guy absolutely dreams about doing a girl like Britney. Young, pretty, skinny, and with big tits. Any guy who says he doesn't is lying. It's that simple. Who cares how she looks when she's 30? Guys will find a new bimbo to lust after. (Ever hear of Playboy magazine? Did you think guys were buying it for the articles? Ha! Obviously your man has you fooled...)"

Joe, I think you need to have a chat to Rich, because he's been trying to tell me over the past couple of days that the Baywatch viewing, cheerleader lusting American male was a hopeless media lie!

I don't think my husband has too much smut in the flat (sorry, have onlly been married for seven weeks - still quite taken with referring to him as 'husband'!), and as a slim 24 year old who's pretty foxy (if I do say so myself) and with fair-sized mammaries I can't imagine why he'd want them!!!

I've never snapped any boyfriend with girlie pics, despite frequently keeping stuff in their sock drawers and retrieving my shoes from under their beds. Is that unusual?

-- Anonymous, April 29, 1999

Want to BE her? Surely you jest.

Poor Brit. She is going to peak before she turns 21. Pop stars only rarely last more than a couple of years, and some barely make it beyond their first album. I haven't even heard the music (I listen exclusively to "classic" rock stations) but I can tell by the hype that she's not going to be one of the stayers.

Imagine this. Years from now, she's going to go on a date with some guy who never even heard of her singing career before. And before their second date, he'll do some research and look it up, and find her CD somewhere. And he'll listen to the music and be underwhelmed, and he'll look at the pictures and be wowed. And do you know what he's going to say to her when they go on that second date? "I found your CD. You were really hot!"

And she's going to know that the "hot" refers to her body, not her career (and not her current body, either, but her old body); and that "found your CD" means that it's not in stores anymore, not that it's being grabbed up as fast as it's being shipped. And she's going to know for the rest of her sad life that she's already had it as good as she's ever going to get it - that the whole rest of her life is downhill.

For her, it's never going to be, "In a couple of years, when I'm doing better." It's always going to be, "Back when I was doing better."

People who make careers of their looks are doomed in a society that worships youth above all else. Because you can't get any younger.

So she's hot, yeah. And she may be happy now. But it's going to take some serious internal dialogue and mental adjustment for her to be happy later, when her looks start to fade.

It doesn't make me jealous. It would at one time - I'm not a looker, never have been, never will be. Too short. Wrong body type. But I've got a husband who adores me, and friends who aren't after my body or my money, and a job that will still be here in ten years. I'm happy with my life.

I just feel sorry for her.

-- Anonymous, April 29, 1999

Hey NOW! Jackie, you're just trying to get me back into the general conversation, I figure, by swinging my name around like that!

I'm going to walk a line between Jackie and Joe and say that the media and advertisers, not just in the US, realize one truth:

Sex Sells. Period. That's why you have page 3 girls in the U.K., topless soda adds in Spain, and women having orgasms by just washing their hair in the U.S. I wouldn't say every guy has fantasies of statutory rape, but we aren't talking about the over 18 set here. Britney is going after the newly pubescent kid that suddenly realized that he can't stand up to answer the teachers question because the girl in front of him has Britney stickers all over her notebook.

This isn't limited to the U.S.

As for Baywatch and cheerleaders, uh, I still stand behind my statement that most American males are not Baywatch-watching, cheerleader-lusting horny bags of unbriddled sexual desire. But they do, at some point in their lives, have a subscription to Playboy.

As for Jackie's husband, I'd wager he has something tucked away under his shirts or in the back of the closet. It's not a matter of the woman you're with being a knockout or anything. Men are just pigs that way. Really, we are. So stop asking if we thought that hot girl walking by was hot. She was, and you damn well know it!

-- Anonymous, April 29, 1999

You can just guess that I'm going to head home and start sneakily going through his sock drawer and peering under his shoe boxes, can't you!

No - I refuse to believe it. It's all the other blokes in the world that are pigs (wow, the monitor looks pretty through these rose coloured specs!), not MY darling.

(incidentally, he saw Britney Spears on Top of the Pops and wanted to know who 'the scary muppet girl' was).

-- Anonymous, April 29, 1999

Liz:

To each her own, I suppose. Personally I love watching the sunrise, even though it means the rest of the day is plain in comparison.

I would rather be a has-been, as Britney likely soon will be, than a never-been.

-- Anonymous, April 29, 1999

After digesting the postings to this topic over the last few days, I've noticed a pattern of many of the women coming to a general understanding that the men aren't able to pick up on.

To use an example from my own life, when I was taking judo classes in the last few years, I helped my instructor, a Midwester grandmother, for her kids' classes. I was a good size for her to throw.

In the class was this one funny 6 year old kid, who spent a week leaping on me and yelling, "You're my boyfriend!" of which the only appropriate response was to slam her to the ground and sit on her, while making her eat the foot of another kid and telling her that she had no friends.

To a normal human being it's easy to say that she didn't know of what she was saying. She may as well have said, "I killed a man just to watch him die!" In that particular environment, nothing ever came of it.

The dark side of this is that if she should behave this way with a stranger in a public park, the sight would send a shiver down everyone's spine. If the stranger is a predator, he's not going to take You're my boyfriend! for the nonsense a normal human being would.

This is why the word No! makes up 80% of a words that come out of a mother's mouth.

In the case of Britney Spears, it seems like a 17 year old said, "I wanna show cleavage and belly button on TV!" and no one slammed her into the ground and sat on her, making her eat the foot of another kid and telling her that she has no friends. It's normal for someone her age to choose to behave this way, but for her guardians to support her like this is to alert every stalker in the country, each one the only one who can love her in the way she obviously yearns for.

This is what made the Jon Benet Ramsey murder so disturbing: she was encouraged to be a victim by her parents. And it's not just her. These kiddie pageants are a breeding ground for victims.

It's only evolution. Where there is a surplus of victims, Nature will provide a predator.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 1999

Sorry to harp back on this one, but I read something in Kymm's diary a couple of days ago that struck me as timely. She was referring to 11 year old Welsh soprano Charlotte Church:

"She also had a moustache long enough to twirl. I don't think that eleven is too young to start bleaching it."

I disagree. An eleven year old is a child, for God's sake! Why don't you tell her she's fat as well and be done with it? She's actually famous for her voice, not her face.

If a seemingly intelligent woman can make this kind of throwaway comment about a young girl, judging her appearance and suggesting improvements, it's no big surprise that 16 year old Britney got breast implants or that loads of crazy mothers put their five year olds' on tanning beds in the hopes of seeing them crowned 'Miss Young and Beautiful'.

Am I over-reacting or am I right in thinking its not normal to look at a young girl with such hyper-critical eyes?

-- Anonymous, May 05, 1999

Jackie, I had the same reaction to Kymm's comment, no offense intended to Kymm. I am forever grateful to my mom for not dumping that baggage on me when I was a kid -- I got enough of it from other girls, after all.

Eleven years old is WAY too early to start getting insecure about all that crap ... but then again, so is 25. Or 40.

-- Anonymous, May 05, 1999

Well, I just have to open my mouth once again!!!

On Britney Spears: She is 17, not 16. And she didn't get breast implants. End of discussion.

On Jon Benet Ramsey: This whole incident gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. What is especially troubling is that the parents are walking around free (last I heard). It's enough to make me want to ban these kiddie pagents altogether. But is that just a knee jerk reaction? Do pagents lead to abuse? Is there really a higher incidence of abuse among beauty pagent entrants? And if there is, is it caused by the beauty pagent? Or is it just that the parents are prone to such behavior and would do it with or without the beauty pagent? I think the real question here is, is it beneficial for the child? On the surface it seems the answer is no, but is it really that different from entering track and field? Nobody think children shouldn't be allowed to participate in track and field events, do they? Which brings me to my next point:

On Beauty -vs- Intelligence -vs- Athleticism: Why is it that everybody sneers at beauty pagents or people who try to exploit their looks? Why is it okay to use your intelligence to get ahead, or your athletic ability, but not your beauty? Are they not all genetically driven? Some people will never be smart. Some people will never be athletic. Should we sneer at those who 'show off' their intelligence or their athleticism because everybody can't be like them and they make the rest of us feel inferior? How is saying that a person should be happy with the way they look any different from saying a person should be happy with how intelligent they are, or athletic? People work to improve their intelligence, people work to improve their athletic abilities, and I don't see any reason why people shouldn't work to improve their beauty.

My conclusion is this: kids should be allowed to participate in beauty pagents if they so desire. That's a big IF, by the way, too often the child is pushed into it by the parents, in which case it reeks of the parent trying to live out their failed dreams throught their child. That is just plain wrong. The same goes for basketball, or spelling bees; if the kid wants to participate, fine. If not, they shouldn't be pushed into it. (They can, of course, be encourage, just not forced.)

-- Anonymous, May 05, 1999

Joe,

Although I agree that restraint should be shown in terms of legislating any victimless activity, I'm not sure I see the point you are defending. What need does showing off beauty or intelligence or athleticism serve?

-- Anonymous, May 05, 1999

Mike:

All I meant to say is that it seems to me to be hypocritical thinking for us, as a society, to on the one hand frown upon competitions based on beauty as exploitive, and on the other hand have no problem with competitions based on intelligence or athletic ability. Why is one exploitive and the other not?

(Of course I am playing a bit of the devil's advocate here. I know perfectly well why society frowns on competitions based on beauty. It's because it gives men hard-ons, and that's just plain wrong. Right?)

-- Anonymous, May 05, 1999

When you give a ball to a group of kids, they throw it around, run around, yell, jump on each other. It doesn't have to get out of hand.

When you hand out checker and Monopoly boards to a group of kids, they put pieces in their mouths, run around, make a mess. It doesn't have to get out of hand.

When you hand out make up and mirrors to little girls, and throw bright lights in their eyes, and all they can hear is that one of them will get more approval than the others, well ... is that something you want your kid go through?

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

Do you want to train these kids to seek approval for providing, as you put it, hard-ons?

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

Mike:

Words are funny things. You can twist them around to say pretty much anything you want. I could just as easily rewrite what you just wrote thusly:

When you give make up and mirrors to little girls, they smear it all over the place, giggle, and enjoy playing with it. It doesn't have to get out of hand.

When you give a ball to a group of kids only the ones who are athletically gifted will get the approval of the others. The ones who have no athletic ability will be ostracized, made fun of, or at the very least picked last. Is that something you want your kid to go through?

To answer your second question, I do not want to train these kid to do anything. I want them to do whatever they enjoy doing. (We can leave the current cultural over-emphasis on beauty for another discussion.) To say we should ban beauty contests because men will become sexually aroused is much the same as saying women should keep themselves completely covered to avoid the same 'problem'. In Islamic countries they do think this, by the way, and what do we think of the practice? Why are we wanting to change our attitude when it comes to beauty contests?

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

I don't think people are against beauty contests because they sexually arouse men. Remember the context in which these things take place. Our society, unfortunately, emphasizes that women's main function and talent is to be pretty. you have to decide if you think that's true, or if that's the impression you want girls to row up with, or if you think that maybe there are other aspects which you t hink girls would be better suited to focus on, like intelligence, or or phsyical skill, or critical thining etc. etc. What traits will help them out in life?

Prettiness is dependent on someone else's response. it's not too useful of itself. prettiness also may not last a long time, and takes more and more energy to maintain as you age. Prettiness also can lead to negative and unwanted attention, as well as the 'good kind.' Beauty pageants encourage girls to pin their self-worth on something which is fleeting, and determined by standards which are often unrealistic or difficult to attain by most girls, and which takes a lot of energy to maintain. Maybe that energy could be better spent? And maybe there are other facets of a girl's personality which could be celebrated and encouraged, which will do them (and the world) more good.?

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

As I said before, I ain't for banning any victimless activity.

I have noticed that you've ... drawn a line in the ground. I questioned your need to draw that line. Maybe I articulated that badly, and if I did, then I am sorry. However, the question for your need to draw that line remains open.

What is the point that you are defending? Tell us of this need for kiddie pageants that you have decided to stand up for.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

Trouble:

First of all, I do believe people are against beauty contests precisely because they sexually arouse men. Some people have come right out and said it, others dress their arguments up with words like "objectification" and "exploitation", but it all comes down to sex. I have yet to see any other argument that holds any water whatsoever.

All your arguments can be applied equally against sports, in fact, more so. To paraphrase what you said:

'Sports encourage people to pin their self-worth on something which is fleeting, and determined by standards which are often unrealistic or difficult to attain by most people, and which take a lot of energy to maintain. Maybe that energy could be better spent? And maybe there are other facets of a person's personality which could be celebrated and encouraged, which will do them (and the world) more good?'

I'd venture that Mary Lou Retton (who by the way managed to earn $20 million off her all-around gold medal) had a shorter carreer than Elle McPherson.

And come on, did a person doing gymnastics, or any other sport, really do the world any good?

No, the fact is, a lot of people just can't stand the thought of women standing around looking pretty and men lusting after them. They will attempt to rationalize this with all manner of invalid smoke-screen arguments, perhaps even believing themselves.

Why do people believe that people who exploit their looks are somehow 'cheating' while people who exploit their athletic abilities are to be admired? (hmmm, perhaps it's because exploiting one's looks is too easy? People can't stand to see other people get something without working for it, can they?)

I believe in letting individuals make up there own minds about what will "help them out in life." I believe a person should be able to spend their energies wherever they want, without anyone else condemning them, or second guessing whether or not it will do them, or the world, any good.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

Mike:

I never said we needed kiddie pagents. We don't need basketball, or gymnastics, or checkers either? So what?

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

So what? I don't know. When you said that you just had to open your mouth once again, I thought you had something to say.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

Mike:

I do admire a man who is willing to admit he just doesn't know. Thanks for confirming what I suspected all along.

If all you want is just to have the last word, well, you can have it.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

???

Oh, I just realized you asked the following without me answering it:

When you give a ball to a group of kids only the ones who are athletically gifted will get the approval of the others. The ones who have no athletic ability will be ostracized, made fun of, or at the very least picked last. Is that something you want your kid to go through?

Actually, yes. I think screening one's friends is a good skill.

I see no advantage to submitting my kid to perceiving that same ostracization from a group of adults I don't respect.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 1999

There is a site (www.voy.com/35137/). There are moms there are are happy with some pageants that score their little girls on facial beauty only! THAT IS SO SICK! What's worse is that this is coming from other women! We women have had our looks exploited throughout centuries only being praised by our external appearances and here comes these sicko scum broads (who are usually fat and lucky to have teeth) allowing their kids to be used as prime meat just to win money and crowns!

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2001