To Chris (if your still around) and all others,

This is a partial response to your last message concerning Michael, dealing with what was brought up on rebuking and what your implications with it are in relation to The God, Jesus and Michael.

The case of 'rebuking' for Jesus being The God not accurate with what is said in the Bible. Nor really a case against Michael being Jesus. There are a few reasons.

What is rebuking? Websters: to address in a sharp disapproval; reprimand

Is this the whole meaning for the Greek context? Is that the way the Bible writers used the term? Did they say that only Jesus, because He was The God, could use the term in the sense of judgement? Did Jesus actually "judge" those He rebuked? In both cases the answer is no. Why?

The term rebuking has several meanings in Greek and the same Greek word used for the sense of judgement in Jude 9 is used in other places, but does it mean the same things?

The Greek words for rebuke: A) epitimao (Strongs #2008): change, censure or admonish; forbid; charge, rebuke

B) elegcho (1651): convict, convince, tell a fault, reprove confute admonish

C) amometos (298): blameless

D) epiplesso (1969): to chastise (with words); to upbraid

Which one is used in Jude 9? Inerestingly #2008.What does this mean?

*9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" *

Chris is correct in saying here rebuke implies judgement (ex:charge #2008) and that The LORD will judge Satan - the Devil. This does not however, mean that only the LORD and Jesus (because He is The God) can judge.

But, does this mean that Michael is not allowed to actually "pass judgement?" It does not. Why? In Revelation we find Michael, if not passing judgement (Dan 10:13, Dan 12:1, Rev 12:7) at the very least He is carrying it out - doing the Will of The God  thereby by the power of The God carrying out judgement. Which is what Jesus said He was doing - His Father's Will. Which we all must do in order "to inherit the Kingdom of God." Jesus never said He WAS His own Father, never part of a trinity, but He did the things His Father told Him to do. Jesus came "not to judge, but to save the world" - did He not?

Further, what about the cases of Jesus "rebuking" devils? Did He actually judge these? No. (And, who did they say He was? The Son, not The Father.) Lets see why.

Matthew 17:18 (NIV) Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

Did Jesus actually judge this demon? No, He cast him out. No judgement as in the final is involved. That is still left to The God and when/who He wills to do it. Furthermore, even here in this passage the disciples are said to have the power if they develop a strong FAITH. Therefore there is no proof here Jesus is The God. If so then, the disciples become The God. The same applies to Mark 1:25, Luke 4:35; 9:42, etc. Please note that ALL these rebukes are the same #2008 in Strongs.

(On a side note (Luke 4:41; Who did the demons say Jesus was? The God, The Father or The Son?????)

What of the case of the pigs? Luke 8. Now, what happened to these demons? In verse 31 they ask NOT to be sent to the abyss. What is the abyss? Synonymous with the grave, death, hell, the end, ca-put, nothing else. Did Jesus send them, did He judge them? Verse 32 says He gave them permission to enter the swine and the swine drown. Did the demons die who were spirit creatures? Where they actually judged and cast into hell/abyss? Were they destroyed? Honestly, do you think that these spirit creatures 'die' that easily? I think not. Again, no judgement is made  its not the time  yet.

The point is made, you can go thru the rest.

What about Jesus even "rebuking" the Devil (Mat 4:10)? 10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "

Did Jesus actually rebuke him? He did not, simply because the word "rebuke", especially of "judgement", is not even mentioned - is it? And what does Jesus say? Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only. Why didn't He just say "Me" if He was The God? He didn't. He always said "Father." Always giving the ultimate Glory to His Father, never to Himself - just as we are to do. The PERFECT example for us to be sons of The God as Jesus proved Himself to be  The Perfect relationship. You cant have a Perfect relationship with another part of yourself unless your schizophrenic  and thats not perfect, by Nature which The God invented He doesnt go against His own laws to prove His point.

Now, what Biblical examples do we have of other rebukes of judgement?

Lets start near the beginning. In Exodus 23:20-23 this Angel has power to not pardon. Surely this means He can judge, does it not  for My Name is in Him says God Almighty. Again, I do not believe this is just a coincidence that the very name Jesus means God is salvation. YHWHs very Name is in Jesus. And, if your curious, Zec 3:2, Ecc 7:5, Acts 20:31, Titus 1:13, Luke 6:40

Further, what of men? Are they allowed, by The God, to judge others? Yes. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 says that Paul had the authority, by The God thru His Christ, to allow others to judge whether or not they should socialize with those whom they judged unclean. And even in 2 Cor 2:6 for the congregation to do so and remove those who are in it  disfellowshipping (as many churches  yours included  have done in the past and present).

These reasons disproves the theory of only The God having the power to judge, as He gives this power to those whom He pleases  including men (Mark 6:7and at least one angel Exodus 23). And, even in your catholic thoughts, Peter is said to bind whatever on earth  he judges, is he now The God? Of course not.

As usual this is getting too long so Ill stop and anyone here can look this up for yourselves and make up your own mind. Or even prove this incorrect :>).

Shalom - the search for Truth

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 02, 1999

Answers

Wake up folks!! Satan is throwing smoke your way. He made his decision and was cast out from heaven. Not fairy tales but elemets of spritual life.

Christ was man like us in that He felt all emotions of a human. I feel he got more than angry with devils demons and evil spirits. He was and is the supreme warrior who is confidant enough to not use violence only when needed.

Peace And Well Being.

jean bouchard

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 11, 1999.

If you are refering to what I've written as smoke, then please clear it up.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 12, 1999.