Why is there so much anger towards practising Catholics as the milliniun approaches? Is it fear of our solid based faith or our quite arrogance?

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.netj), May 19, 1999

Answers

Jean,

What do you see as signs of an increase in anger toward Catholics? I ask because I've only recently joined the internet community and discovered quite a strong anger and intolerance towards ALL Christians (not just Catholics). I'm not certain whether or not it has always been that way or if it has been escalating as we approach the millennium. I've always encountered a certain degree of anger towards my faith in every day life, but rarely the kind of outright hatred that is frequently expressed on the net. I assumed it was just a 'net' thing that puts us in touch with such a diversity of people that I'm not normally exposed to in every day life combined with the anonymity of the 'net' which provides a freedom of expression that seems to uncork some emotions and attitudes that are normally constrained.

There is also the issue of the massive numbers of Christians (of all denominations) that are being martyred today. The disciples of Jesus are taking quite a beating in many nations in recent years . . . upwards of 160,000 Christians are genuinely martyred each year for their faith in places like China, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Africa. Surely this represents an increase in hatred towards the Body of Christ, but I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 19, 1999.

David,

It is very true that there is increasing animous toward all Christians. However, I think it is also true that the worst animous is reserved for the Catholic faith and faithful Catholics. I have only been a Catholic for five years; before that I was an Evangelical for twenty five. I can tell you that there is a real difference in the bigotry and disrespect and outright hatred reserved by some for Catholicism than that held toward Evangelicals/Pentecostals/Fundamentalists.

The Catholic League is a group like the Jewish Anti-Defamation League that documents the outrageous slanders directed toward Catholics and Catholicism. It's pretty sick stuff. I believe they're at www.catholicleague.org.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 19, 1999.

Most of the animosity towards Catholicism is probably a hangover from the Reformation. I don't think the identification of the Pope with Anti-Christ has ever really gone away in some quarters. Catholicism is also the most theocratic of the Christian denominations; I've heard it called the "White Man's Islam" on many occasions. People are more inclined to call Catholicism facist that any other denomination because it has always been eager to wield political power. There's also minor things like transubstentiation; this was regarded by many as unneccessary superstition during the Reformation and is probably regarded as just silly now. The above posts are correct: -all- denominations are under attack, but because Catholicism sticks to its principles and refuses to bend to democratic pressures it is bound more hostility. The recent controversy in the UK over the ordination of women is a good example of the Catholic church being reviled for sticking to its beliefs; however antiquated they appear to some. It isn't a question of arrogance; it is the inbuilt conservatism of the Catholic faith that makes opponents of so many.

>Long may this continue: a church that becomes extince because it upholds it creed is a much more honourable institution that one which sells its principles to survive<

-- Matthew (u05mdp@abdn.ac.uk), May 19, 1999.

The answer to your question is found the simplest geometric shape - the circle.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 19, 1999.

Good answer Jamey! Jean don't misinterpet anger for truth. The truthful do not fear catholics only god. "quiet arrogance"??? yes she is arrogant. Was the inquisition quiet? What is your solid based faith,is it on a rock? Please read Deuteronomy ch.32 "the song of Moses" and notice the true rock(GOD)and the other rock. Also read Revelations ch.15 and notice "the song of Moses" and who sings this song.

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), May 19, 1999.

I agree that there has become such 'hate' for Catholics and bigotry that is unacceptable. But I do believe that being the 'True Faith', we will be under such condemnation as Christ was on earth. It is intolerable that Hollywood and other media venues can display such a public prejudice against our religion. Would they get away with it against the JEWISH FAITH, BAPTISTS or any other religion? I don't think so. But I take faith in knowing that the 'GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL'! We may have to go to hell and back by standing up for our faith, but we will be with our Lord in the end...

-- Allene (avano@home.com), May 19, 1999.

So far many interesting (not all) contributions. I trust this issue will offer a platform for discussion from many others. The residue left from the Reformation is a very good point as well as all Christians being persecuted in this day and age.

AS to a circle being the answer try again for since the fall of man through Adam God has offered over and over again a way forward to break this deadfall.

Think perhaps that Chrsit brought evolution not revolution

Peace And Well Being.

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.netj), May 20, 1999.

Jean, I think that a lot of people are disapproving of the Catholic faith because it remains conservative in an increasingly bleeding- heart liberal world(particularly in the West). Furthermore, we disapprove of many behaviours, which many ignorant people misconstrue as hate or prejudism. Basically, I think that most people don't want a moral leader or official morality, which the Church provides. They'd rather live without an ethics code. As such, the Church makes them uncomfortable. Bradley MacDonald

-- Bradley MacDonald (bl_macdo@hotmail.com), May 20, 1999.

I agree, Bradley. Jamey wrote:

<< The answer to your question is found the simplest geometric shape - the circle. >>

No, I don't think this is true. The Scriptures say that it is not of any spiritual value if you suffer because you did something wrong (1 Pet 2:20). But the Lord says that we are blessed if we suffer for righteousness (Matt 5:10-11). Now, is it primarily because of past sins on the part of some of her members that the Catholic Church is so hated and despised today? I don't think so. Rather she is...

* Hated by homosexuals because she has the audacity to teach that their behaviour is disordered and sinful.

* Hated by pro-aborts because she has the audacity to teach that unborn human life is sacred.

* Hated by death groups because she will not sanction euthanasia or assisted suicide.

* Hated by a great many divorcees because she upholds our Lord's teaching that a divorced person cannot remarry while their spouse is living.

* Hated by the population control crowd plus lots of ordinary citizens because she alone continues to uphold what used to be a 1900 year unanimous Christian consensus that contraception is sinful.

* Hated by too many Jews because, supposedly, the Church and specifically Pope Pius XII did nothing in the face of the Holocaust -- the truth on the other hand being that the Pope and the Catholic Church did more than any other entity on the planet to save Jews; this is well documented.

* Hated by ...

Well, you get the picture. I submit that the Catholic Church is being despised and hated for all the right reasons. But too many Catholics are so caught up in the modern ethos that as soon as these charges start flying they start kow-towing and apologizing and abandoning the Faith. The Church has already apologized for the past sins of some of her members. If other people, Christians even, can't forgive then that's their problem.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 21, 1999.

atta boy dave!!! good answer, but lets not forget the marooning of practicing catholics on islands in the carribbean by cromwell's henchmen; the beating of nuns on the streets of boston: members of the clergy suggesting that we have a medieval mentality. a problem with the church has been the virtual lack of teaching church history. they are good at teaching the tenets of the church but sorely lack in the teaching of what happened and why. juan

-- juan (declined@aol.com), May 21, 1999.

the trouble with many people is that when they look at the catholic church they do it in a very negative way (sometimes may be they also look at other things in the same way): they speak about the inquisition, about pope alexander vi. and so on, but they don't see (or don't want to see) people like the great missionaries: saint francis xavier, saint pedro claver, saint patrick, motolinia,fray junipero serra, etc. etc. great mystics like saint teresa of avila, saint john of the cross, etc. etc. great religious men and women like st. francis of assisi, st. bonaventure, st. catherine of siena, saint margaret, mother teresa of Calcutta, st.ignatius loyola,st.charles borromeo etc.etc. great humanists like st. thomas aquinas, st albert the great, alcuinus (is this the correct name in english?) raban maur, etc.etc. great martyrs like st. peter chanel, st. domenico savio, st maria goretti, etc etc, great popes like st gregory, st leo, st pius v,etc, etc. i could go on for days. who, if not the C.Church, estabished the first schools and universities in the americas, the first hospitals, the first schools of artcrafts for the indians, the first printing press, etc, etc? remember the great defenders of the indians: bartolome de las casas, pedro de gante,etc.etc.

this is just a small and very incomplete list of the many, many POSITIVE THINGS you can mention about the catholic church.

i would like to hear some americans talk about the many benefits they recieved in the past or the present from th cath. church.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 21, 1999.

A few questions though to follow a line of thought of to this "reasoning"?:

"the first schools of artcrafts for the indians"

First, who discovered America and what "faith" did he hold and what happened to those "indians" under his authority?

Second, what would the "catholics" care for artifacts/artcrafts, especially those of "pagan indians"?

Just curious, Jamey

P.S. Jean, from your "Retort: Jamey you waste athinking man's time.", please do not waste yours if you so consider it to be.

I am trying to study/understand why catholics believe as they do, whether or not I agree is a different issue. So far I see no Biblical way to back up their teachings, except for extra writings of what I see as only men.

If you must believe the way you do because of being brought up in this "doctrine" or some teaching that "guided" you to it then so be it, I personally do believe those who don't "buy into it" are going straight to hell "and burn forever." If discussing this is "wasting a thinking mans time" then again please don't waste yours.

However, I was under the impression this is a place to ask questions or maybe even to provoke some type of answers (besides mysteries).

Anger on the other hand is on both sides, please see what other religions in France are having to go through with a catholic based population.

Its not us or them. The CC has a long history. Some is very good and even served a purpose in The Gods purpose Im sure. Some of the CCs history is not so good and many dwell on those issues. I for one do not. Neither do I believe Peter was a pope.

Shalom

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 21, 1999.

Jamie,

I offer an apolgy and hope you accept. Let's get on with it.

Peace - Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.netj), May 21, 1999.

jamey: when you refer to America do you mean the United States? do you know that we latin americans WITH THAT NAME never refer to just one country, but to the whole continent?

if you mean the U.S. i think the first europeans that landed there were from England and were fleeing religious persecution and not exactly from catholics.

was it the catholics that said that *the best indian is a dead indian* or invented de *manifest destiny*?

i wonder.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 22, 1999.

It is a general statement referring to all of the "America's" not just the US. In specific I was referring to Columbus (who only landed close to US  he wasnt alowed to go to Florida - in what is now Cuba and what some of his contemporaries did to the Aztecs, among others), Desoto (?) (who explored the Mississippi territory several years before the English arrived), etc.

True the English did these atrocities also. In the name of God. Both sides share equal guilt. Its not that either side was worse than the other. Both were bad. Those who did such, did so under the guise of religion  whatever he happen to hold  as an excuse.

Sad to say there were, and still are, Catholics/Protestants/etc claiming faith in "god" that committed many errors. Also sad to say many were probably kin to me (I have both Catholics and Protestants in my family background. Parts of my family, Ive discovered, have been in the US since about 1700.

My point would be, its not anger toward Catholics or Protestants, its greed and power struggles between mere men wanting to be like The God.

Jean, apology is not needed. Thank you though. Accusations are easily misunderstood thru words. Discussions are the means to understand the others view point and is how we shall move on to true understading  hopefully:>)

Jamey

P.S. as to "a good indian being a dead one", whomever said it was an idiot, imho. My wife is part (minor) Cherokee. And, many in my family say we have some Creek somewhere, I haven't been able to find it though - someone's got the old Bible and I don't know who.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 22, 1999.

Kee it coming for there are so many emotions regarding this issue. Are there any ladies out there with viewpoints??

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag,net), May 23, 1999.

I had a thought on this subject which may have some relevance.

When viewing the sources of anger and hatred, it may be important to consider the source.

On one level I can see how the sins of the past (or even the perception of sins of the past) can serve to fuel hatred and division between people. Turkish muslems today may hate and distrust all Christians because of sins committed during the crusades centuries ago. Lutherans may distrust and fear the Catholic church for the persecutions following Luther's revolution. Calvinists may distrust and fear Lutherans for the persecutions following Calvin's revolt (I think I got my history right with that one; point being that Lutherans, having been hunted and killed by Catholics for their "heresies", turned right around and did the same thing to a group that splintered off from them). These kinds of wounds do run deep and can pass from generation to generation, at least among certain cultural groups.

However, in the U.S. I'm pretty sure that the source of anger and hatred lies elsewhere. In this culture, anger and hatred are pretty strong emotions and are usually reserved for recent and personal events (something that happened to you personally). We have very short memories and a fairly poor understanding or knowledge of history. My guess is if a Catholic and a Lutheran get into an argument today (for instance), it's over a disagreement with doctrine or something alone those lines with no mention of past sins other than as a tool to use in the argument. Neither party really cares about what happened 500 years ago.

Truth be known, most non-Catholics spend very little if any time thinking about the Catholic church (as I am sure can be said of Catholics in regard to non-Catholics). It's generally not a part of our lives at all. We have enough to worry about without worrying about what Catholics are doing and saying. So I just don't see the average non-Catholic as being a source of anger or hatred. It doesn't add up. We need to look a little deeper.

I think the true source of anger and hatred today is coming from those who have a personal reason to resent the Church. Perhaps from someone who was raised in a church and for various reasons grew to hate and resent the church. People like Madonna and Sinead O'Connor both fit that bill. They take personal experiences or abuses they have had with someone (parents?) who are Catholic and project that to the church. Or maybe like a child who is raised in a Catholic school grows to resent to strict rules of the school and church because it stands against their rebellious nature or because they resent what they perceive as spiritual manipulation as a means of controlling behaviour. Many times, hypocrisy plays a part. Parents or teachers who clamp down on children for certain sins yet openly sin themselves in other ways.

This is not exclusive to Catholics in any way. I've encountered numerous children of evangelicals or fundamentalists who grew up similarly resenting the emphasis on holiness and accountability while witnessing the hypocrisy of the adults around them.

In my view, this is the true breeding ground for hatred and anger today.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 24, 1999.

I agree with you, David. Much anger is leveled today towards the Catholic Church for various failings in the near past, not the distant past. And I think you will probably agree that much of the splintering we see in Protestantism comes from chasing after that elusive "perfect Church" where all the people are as sinless as I demand and all the doctrine agrees with my personal doctrine. But that "Church" doesn't exist, anywhere. In fact, because different people are looking for a multitude of different contradictory things, it by definition cannot exist.

But I do still see lots of hatred leveled at Catholics simply on the basis of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 24, 1999.

Please allow me to commend you all so far for the wonderfull input to this question of hate. It is coming clear that dialogue is the answer for us all.

Tragically so many hurts and wounds are there in all of us when if we stop for moment and realize as is evedenced from the input so far - WE ALL HURT -

Bless your little pea-pickin' hearts.

A Little Brother In Christ,

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag,net), May 25, 1999.

Jean and the rest of you wonderful people, catholic or not:

in a former posting i sincerely gave the following advice: LET'S LOOK FOR THE THINGS THAT UNITE US INSTEAD OF INSISTING ON THE ONES THAT SEPARATE US.

i understand that a catholic has all the right in the world to answer when he is attacked (and so does everybody) but if we try to follow Christ's teaching let's do it with love and respect for each other: charity above all!!

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 26, 1999.

"Perhaps from someone who was raised in a church and for various reasons grew to hate and resent the church. People like Madonna and Sinead O'Connor both fit that bill."

Naahhhh... Those two are just attention-junkies. Loudly criticizing the church is a very easy way to get attention from people, whether they're religious or not.

Attacking things Cath. got Madonna some attention, but not enough; she soon moved on to more shocking, sexual material. Later she had her (illegitimate) daughter baptized into the church.

O'Connor is simply looney tunes.

Some folks may have legitimate gripes about the religious climate in which they were raised, but celebrities who love to act out can't be relied on for an accurate picture.

-- an RC (not@this.address), May 26, 1999.

Enrique,

Was unaware of my attemtping to cause pain and derision in this forum. My hope on the question of anger was and is to listien and learn and perhaps to know some are being releaved from anxiety when open dialogue is offered.

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag,net), May 26, 1999.