Will those who are not baptized with water go heaven? Also will Jews go to heaven?

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag,net), May 20, 1999

Answers

jean:

since my catechism days we were taught that there are three forms of baptism: 1- with water 2- baptism of blood: when you die a martyr without beeing a christian (example: the innocent children killed by Herod) 3- baptism of desire: when someone not being a christian lives according to his own conscience an honest and sincere, even sometimes, a saintly life (example: mahathma gandhi). here are included jews, moslems, pagans, even atheists,etc etc.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 21, 1999.

This is a very interesting question. What is the catholic view of the number stated in Revelation (144,000) as those inheriting the "Kindom of Heaven?"

Second, since none of the earlier prophets or leaders of the nation of Israel were "Christians", what happens to them? (Example: Moses, Solomon (the 'depressed' man), David (another 'depressed' man), etc)

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 21, 1999.

Jamey,

This Catholic feels the intpretation of the 144 in Revelations is truly misunderstood. This figure I beleive is symbolic only and hopefull not taken literally.

Jewish mystical writings of which we must remeber John was Jew wrote in the idioms of his day and used symbols that we are still to-da attempting to both intrepret and understand.

As to the prophet I beleive they as messengers of God by definition suffered enough to warrent heaven. They carried the cross of which Christ spoke of. Does this make sense??

Peace And Well Being.

Jean B.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.iamg.net), May 22, 1999.

Jean,

I do not believe that the 144,000 is symbolic of an infinite number. If we are all to "go the Heaven" in the "New Kingdom of God" then what is the New Earth for? Also, what is the purpose if those who die and are deemed "good" go to Heaven anyway? Do they have to make 2 trips :>)? This is a part of M. Luther's Reformation that seems to be ignored, misunderstood or forgoten by many.

MGP

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 22, 1999.

would someone comment on Rev 7,9:

"After this I beheld, and,lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, OF ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE, AND TONGUES,stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands;" (capitals mine).

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 23, 1999.

God wishes all to be saved and Christ died so that all could have the means to be saved. Some times these means fail in their effect. Because of the unwillingness of some persons to avail themselves of them. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Alphonsus Liguori all state this in their works on Salvation. Christ offered His merits for all and instituted Baptism for all, which is the ordinary means of application of the Merits. It would be very hard today to find someone who is truly ignorant of Christianity or who has never heard of Christ and His Gospel. To know of the Gospel and Christ but refuse to explore the posibility of Christianity is to reject the means of Salvation offered by God, resulting in exclusion from the kingdom.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), May 23, 1999.

Jesus said that no one gets to the Father except through Him; that He is the way, the truth and the life. Ever since Jesus died on the Cross and rose again, the only way to Heaven is through faith in Him. Since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled, it is no longer a path to God. Jews must also go through Jesus to get to Heaven now.

Water baptism is an action that follows our faith in God. It is necessary in order to be obedient to God, but salvation itself is secured by faith. So one who believes yet does not know to be baptized or dies prior to being baptized is not excluded. At the same time, one who believes yet deliberately refuses to be baptized cannot be assured of salvation . . . how could one call Jesus 'Lord' and at the same time refuse to obey such a command . . . it demonstrates that their faith is dead (faith without works is dead). As far as children, the NT states that the faith of a believing parent is a covering of righteousness for their children until the children are of the age of accountability, so children incapable of faith (due to age) are still assured salvation if they have a believing parent.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 24, 1999.

Some Jews have already gone to heaven. "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB AND ALL THE PROPHETS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD" (Luke 13:28). Paul mentions that Abel, Enoch [whom God took with Him], Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were looking "forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. . .And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country--A HEAVENLY ONE. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them" (Heb 11:10,13c-16).

As for those not baptized, Paul seems to imply that God can bring salvation somehow to those who do not know ("do not have the law"). In the context of justification Paul mentions that "when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts no accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares" (Rom 2:14-16).

Regarding the 144,000, if this is taken literally then most of us will never attain heaven. "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure" (Rev 14:4). "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel" (Rev 7:4). We cannot pick and choose what is literal and figurative within the same context from one sentence to the next.:( This would suggest that only virgin male Jews can attain heaven. I don't think so!

-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 20, 1999.

The answer to your question lies in John 3:16.

-- Yolie Duarte (yondelac@nmda-bubba.nmsu.edu), November 29, 1999.

<< The answer to your question lies in John 3:16 >>

Read, of course, in light of John 3:5.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), November 29, 1999.

True. To me that would mean to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, to be baptised in obedience, but that does not mean that I will not go to heaven if I did not get baptised. The only way you cannot go to heaven is if you reject Christ. By accepting Him, you are given a free ticket to heaven. All expenses paid.

-- Yolie Duarte (yondelac@nmda-bubba.nmsu.edu), November 29, 1999.

So many are being mislead with this. Without Baptism and I specifically mead the Sacrament of Baptism one stands a great chance of not entering the Kingdom and the Beatific Vision. Why would anyone want to take that chance! Baptism of Desire is a specific public statement of the desire to receive Baptism but that you are prevented from doing so by death.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), November 30, 1999.

I can understand why people wish to be baptized, confirmed, have a priest say a few words to them before they die etc., but I simply cannot believe that a person who did not wish to be baptized(I wasn't because I never went to Church) will be refused entry to Heaven *just* because of that.

I really wish people wouldn't *insist*(as most of you are) that these rituals are somehow legally binding. I don't think it is misleading to promote John 3:16 on its own. It is far more misleading to tell people that baptism alone will save them, which is what such emphasis of these things does

-- Matthew (matthewpope@aol.com), November 30, 1999.

I for one am not being mislead. I know I am going to heaven, and it doesn't rely on if I am baptised or not. I will live in eternity with Jesus because I believe in Him and what He did for me. I also beleive that those who have accepted Christ as their personal savior, regardless of their walk in Him, baptised or not, will also go to heaven. We are not to judge or condem those who are not baptised, (and I am not saying that you are saying that). Who are we to say who will go to heaven or hell? Only The Lord God Almighty has that authority to decide on it. We on the other hand, have a choice to make while living on this earth, Will I accept Christ as my personal savior or will I reject Him?

-- Yolie Duarte (yondelac@nmda-bubba.nmsu.edu), November 30, 1999.

Matthew wrote:

<< I really wish people wouldn't *insist*(as most of you are) that these rituals are somehow legally binding. I don't think it is misleading to promote John 3:16 on its own. It is far more misleading to tell people that baptism alone will save them, which is what such emphasis of these things does. >>

Matthew, we are just seeking to be true to Scripture. In John 3:5 our Lord says,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

That's a pretty strong statement. The Greek text makes it clear that there is only one birth in view here; it is a water-Spirit birth. The unanimous Christian interpretation of this verse in the first fifteen centuries of Christian history is that it refers to water baptism.

Now I can anticipate all the responses, because I've heard them all before. Most non-Catholics will reply that it refers to two births, your natural birth by water and your supernatural birth by the Spirit. Wrong. The Greek has one definite article that governs both "water" and "Spirit", making it clear that there is only one birth, a water-Spirit birth. That can only be baptism. The context supports this too since just prior to this chapter we have an allusion to the ministry of John the Baptist and immediately following we have Jesus' disciples going out to baptize.

I know that many non-Catholics also do not care that this verse was unanimously understood to refer to water baptism for the first fifteen hundred years of Church history, starting in the first century and extending all the way to the "reformation." They just don't care. It always makes me shake my head. Is the Holy Spirit, Who is to lead us to all truth, so inept that He cannot teach His people what the Bible means? Was every Christian prior to the sixteenth century so lacking in common sense and enlightenment by the Holy Spirit that he couldn't see what every Fundamentalist or Evangelical plainly sees in this verse? I say it's impossible, or at the very least staggeringly unlikely; but your mileage may vary.

But no, the Catholic Church simply seeks to be true to Scripture as it has always been understood in the Church throughout all of history--even when the sayings are difficult to understand. She truly is the original Bible Church.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), November 30, 1999.

Dear David, First of all, I am a baptized Catholic. My question to you is, where do you think all the good people, who are not baptized, go? I am referring to the people who lead good lives and are charitable to others and for whatever reason, are not baptized? Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), November 30, 1999.

The same answer applies to the question: "Is Hell empty?" The answer that the church gives is we don't know. But Mk 16:16 is clear to me.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), November 30, 1999.

It's a great question, Ellen.

The Scriptures say, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right" (Acts 10:34-5). This seems maybe to contradict John 3:5, but Scripture often has absolute statements that, when taken in the entire context of the Bible, are not absolute. An example is 1 Cor 15:22-23 which says, "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." I guarantee you that even the most literal Fundamentalist will not take that last sentence absolutely literally, since that would be universalism and would seem to deny even the possibility of Hell for anyone.

The Catechism explains the dynamic this way: God has bound salvation to His sacraments, but God Himself is not bound by His sacraments. So yes, baptism is necessary for salvation. But God, as a loving Father, does not play a "gotcha" game with those who are unable to receive baptism through no fault of their own. Vatican II says that it is possible for those who have only imperfect communion with Christ (those who lack water baptism and the Eucharist, or even those who lack explicit knowledge of Christ) to be saved, but the Council does not say that it is easy or even likely. So all of us Catholics need to have the evangelical zeal of our Catholic forefathers and mothers, to be bold to preach the Gospel so that as many as possible can hear the Good News and be saved.

I hope that's helpful. Let me know if I need to clarify.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), December 01, 1999.

when someone not being a christian lives according to his own conscience an honest and sincere...

Now there's an oxymoron. Living by one's own conscience is the opposite of honest and sincere. God's Word clearly states "the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it." "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. " Only one way leads to salvation. To say that anyone can make it to heaven on his or her own merits is to totally miss the entire point God's Word makes about man's sin nature and his hopelessness without God's righteousness and grace.

-- Bondslave of Jesus Christ (tillnow@rn.com), December 02, 2001.

It's well that you don't make the rules, bondslave. Because you've misunderstood not only the scriptures you quoted, you misunderstand the meaning of salvation outside of the Church. Nobody claims a man can be saved by his own merits. God saves that man, not any merit of his own. If God sees an upright heart, one that is ignorant of the Gospel without it being his fault, the grace of God through Jesus Christ can save that man. Despite his invincible ignorance. --But it would depend on a blameless life-- a willingness to accept the Holy Gospel were it evident to him. This would indicate to God, who reads the heart of every man, that the man has made an effort to live a sinless life, and that he was sorry for all his sins. It may be a tall order, but hope is certainly justified.

As for your interpretation of the ''total depravity'' of every man, from the scripture you've read here-- You infer more from it than God has intended. God has not condemned the whole race universally. He is referring to the inherent sinfulness of all human nature. But He has given all men a conscience. All men, no matter how sinful, can repent of their sin. You've assumed by the severity of the passages you quote, that man is by nature unrepentent.

Yet, the prophet states unequivocally, speaking to God: ''A humble and contrite heart you will not spurn.'' What is a ''humble and contrite heart''? A man who lives by his conscience. Therefore, there is no necessary oxymoron. Only your short-sighted interpretation of scripture. Remember the words of the holy apostle Paul: ''God desires that all men be saved.''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 02, 2001.