What will the Catholic Church be like in AD 2050? You may add your comments here.

-- rp (zpub@sirius.com), May 31, 1999

Answers

"Thy *Kingdom* come"

I pray we don't have to wait that long.

MGP

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 31, 1999.

Some feel the seat of the church will move to Portugal. There will be a most severe shortage of ordained priests. Many parish activites will fall to the hands of the laity. Married deacons will support many areas. Religious vocations will be on the rise. There will be three distinct manner of Catholic practise. I will be in heaven God willing.

Peace and Well Being.

Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 01, 1999.

I'm with Jamey on this one, I hope Jesus has returned and established His Kingdom on earth by then.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), June 01, 1999.

hopefully ill be an old grandfather telling my grandkids how the church used to be so vague and is now more firm and direct

-- Ed Soto (supersampler@netzero.net), September 10, 1999.

If we are still living on Earth in the year 2050, there will not be many remaining in the Catholic Church. More are learning the truth of the names Yahweh and Yahshua and of the divine title Elohim. How much longer can the Catholic faith keep this information hidden when the Church is starving? For starters, investigate the word, "Tetragrammaton", the (erroneous) name Jehovah, and trace the almalgamation of dieties that is "Jesus Christ" to it's origin. (You may discover that "Jesus Christ" comes from Ie, Zeus, and Krishna, which are Babylonian, Greek, and Hindu.)

-- Montaz Meah II (tazmeah@aol.com), January 27, 2000.

Why don't you all just go out and live a nice christian life and not worry about god's plans, I'm sure he's got everything under control and besides, what's the rush to have the kingdom come? God wants us to make the most of this life too, doesn't he? If you ask me, you all sound a little too comfortable with the prospect of the end of the world. And please spare everyone vague references to obfuscated theological semantics that make no sense unless you plan on explaining things in a sensible manner.

-- bob jones (bob@mindspring.com), March 16, 2000.

Not too far into the next century, the Catholic Church is going to experience internal controversy and division as it becomes apparent that it has embraced too many divergent ideas to remain unified. The strong liberal/modernist theological movements in North America and Europe will rebel against a traditionalist Pope. This rebellion will become stronger, because Catholics in these countries life in democratic societies with freedom of thought - the Catholic Church will no longer be able to suppress the historical and Biblical facts (e.g., the Papacy didn't exist in early Christendom)that challenge traditionalist doctrine. The Papacy will also become unable to steer and control Latin American Catholicism, which has syncretized a great deal of indigenous pagan belief (e.g., VooDoo). The success of Baptist and Pentecostal churches in Latin America, Africa and elsewhere will leave the Catholic Church without a single significant nation that it dominates entirely. In an attempt to preserve itself against these trends, the Catholic Church will become more modernistic - often with a New Age spin - in doctrine, seeking to use a mystic, universalistic theology (see Matthew Fox) to unite North American liberals and South American folk religionists. The result will be a Catholicism that has come so far from its roots that first- century Christians would be utterly unable to recognize any trace of Jesus' teachings in the church. Catholics who were influenced by Evangelicalism in North America will leave Catholicism for the Baptist church and other denominations that have remained truer to the Bible's revelation of Christ.

-- Jason Pressler (Jasonix@at.worldnet.net), April 11, 2000.

Jason,
That was a knee-slapper!
All the Catholics here agree with everything you said -- NOT!
For you to write what you did, you would have to have nearly ZERO knowledge of Christian history.
When you get out of ninth grade, please stop by for another visit.
We're prayin' for you, good buddy.
Big V

-- Vincent of Lerins (vince@vatican.va), April 11, 2000.

How childish some of you are!!! In 2050, God willing, I will be sitting on the porch swing with my husband happily retired at the ripe old age of 70 looking at photo albums of our grandkids; resting in the comfort of knowing that we did our job to raise our kids in the Catholic faith; still living my life for the purpose of knowing God, loving God, and serving God. In a "dog eat dog" world, the Catholic Church - as unpopular as it is among the other 4 and a half billion people on earth - is nevertheless becoming more and more attractive. "Why is it so attractive?" you ask. Well, the truth is always attractive. Period. In another 50 years, more and more people are going to continue to look at the Church for explinations of the world around them. And hopefully, as more and more people come to understand what the Church teaches and has to offer, more and more will finally accept the TRUTH and wonder why they didn't do it sooner. Good luck to all of you out there and God bless.

-- Kerri Goodwin (kerrianng@yahoo.com), May 17, 2000.

The Catholic church will probably doing what it has alwas been doing for the last 1500 years, seeking to control the world and bringing an end to all protestants and of course bringing everyone under the submission of the pope, Wich is the real reason the real reason for the popes urge for unity among other faiths.

-- clifton mathis (cliftonmathis@hotmail.com), May 25, 2000.

Clifton, baby,
If you had a brain, you'd be dangerous.
See what you can do about getting into Summer School for a little grammar and spelling help. For homework, read a truthful book about the history of the Catholic Church, so that you can drop out of the ranks of the bigots.
Mike

-- Mike Gorby (mgorbachev@crimea.net), May 25, 2000.

I know that the Roman Catholic Church will be Vibrant,Joyful and helping all of mankind (Women as well,Remember "Our Divine Mother is a Woman)Our Divine Master said "Let all the little children come to me.To days parents must Educate their Children to live to Love Jesus and his Divine Mother and NOT expect the State or others to do so.If you truely Love God, you will have Love in abundance for all of your children and their Friends...Your Children are the Church for 2050 and beyond. I KNOW that the Church will be stronger in 2050 AD because "Jesus Christ"said to Peter,thou are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and I shall be with you forever...that is why our beloved Church will not only survive but Spread even greater throughout the World as we know it today.If mankind "Yes ! you and I" heed the message of Fatima from Our Blessed Lady "Return to my Son Jesus " and the World will Know Peace and prosperity for all of mankind....All they have to do is .....Yes, return to Jesus. As I know that Heaven exists I am in possession of the Greatest GOLDMINE ever and I want the oppourtunity to share this wealth with everybody.Never despair,there is that cloud with the silver lining,just ask Our Divine Mother toask her son Jesus and all shall be yours.Jesus never refused his Mother and he never will,so Requwst/Ask Our Blessed Mother and she shall NEVER fail you.

-- Dr.Brendan Flynn. (bmapc@esatclear.ie), July 01, 2000.

Dr. Brendan Flynn, Why ask Mary for the answers? Haven't you ever read in the bible, that there is only one mediator between God and man and that was Christ Jesus? What did Jesus say to Mary when she tried to tell Jesus that there was no more wine? he said woman what have I to do with thee. Mary was just a vessel that God usedand not someone that is to be put on the same level as christ. God said that he would show his glory with no one.Search the bible.

-- Clifton Mathis (cliftonmathis@hotmail.com), August 07, 2000.

Dear Clifton,
Welcome to the discussion board!
I'm sorry that I must say that both you and the good Doctor are mistaken.

He was off base in referring to someone as our "Divine Mother." I am having trouble determining if he is calling the first person of the Trinity a "Mother" or if he is calling Mary "Divine." Either one would be wrong. Faithful Catholics never call God "Mother," and we know that Mary is a human being, a creature -- not divine.

But you have slipped in mentioning that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Dr. Flynn's message did not recommend using Mary as a mediator between us and God, but rather to ask her to pray for us to her Son, Jesus. This is no different from me asking you to pray to Jesus for an improvement in my health.

But anyway, perhaps without realizing it, each faithful Christian does indeed act as a mediator between God and men. Have I shocked you by saying so? Here is what I mean: Do you ever repeat the "Lord's Prayer." Do you not address the Father directly therein -- sometimes on behalf of your family? [Our Father ... give us this day ...] Are you not thereby making yourself a mediator between God and men? Yes, you are, and Jesus permits us to do that, in a form of mediatorship subordinate to His, because we are so united with Him that St. Paul calls us "the Body of Christ."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), August 07, 2000.

John, Jesus said that the only way to the father was through himself,so why would you ask mary to save you when Jesus said that He was the door to God and that if any man tried to come to God any other way, he would be the same as a theif or a robber.The bible did not say that mary was at the right hand of the father making intersession for us,but he did say that Jesus was. The thing that I can't understand is that catholics will not even try to talk directly to Jesus,they will only go through mary. Praying for someone is one thing but when it comes to asking forgiveness of sins only God can do that.The bible said that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins;and Jesus has already paid that price. It is through his blood alone we can be saved

-- clifton mathis (cliftonmathis@hotmail.com), August 08, 2000.

Jmj
Hi, Clifton.

I'm so sad to see that someone has badly led you astray about what we Catholics believe. I hope that it was a bad book that you can now throw away. But I realize that it may be a family member, friend, or pastor whom you will now -- out of justice to both us and him/her -- have to better inform.

Everything you mentioned about Catholic beliefs and practices was incorrect. I'll keep this brief.
1. Catholics know that their only Savior is Jesus. We do not ask Mary to save us. She cannot save us. She herself was "saved."

2. Catholics do not say that Mary is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. We know that Jesus is in that throne.

3. Catholics do indeed speak directly to Jesus -- VERY frequently. We have spoken to Jesus in every one of the 400,000 Masses celebrated every day of your life, Clifton! We speak to Him in private prayer wherever we are, but in an extra special way when we visit Him in the Blessed Sacrament. And not only do we speak to Him, but we obey Him by receiving Him in Holy Communion. Jesus is the very CENTER of our lives. Without Him, we could not go on and would not want to.

4. Catholics never ask Mary for forgiveness of sins. We ask God for that. Millions of Catholics ask God to forgive them every single day. We know that Jesus paid the price for our sins by the shedding of His blood.

I hope that these truths will make a big difference in your perception of Catholics. We would love to have you join us.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), August 09, 2000.

My prayer is that there will be continued unity amoung the Catholic Church and other denominations, so as to share "one faith and one baptism". My prayer is also that the Church will see the obvious need to recognize and understand what God is doing through the Jewish people in respect to bringing them closer to His Son. Also, I pray that the Church will recognize the need for reliance on the Holy Spirit, and that the Gifts of the Spirit are not "taboo", but a strong part of Scripture, the tradition of the Church, and the Catechism. My last prayer is to see Catholic Youth stand up firm against attacks made toward Christ in the name of false freedom.

-- Steve Aguzzi (Steven_Aguzzi@mlupc.org), September 18, 2000.

First of all, the state of the world right now is bad i.e pollution etc but we manage to go thru it to 2050, i say the Catholic Church will be even more healthy as It is experiencing steady growth i.e Pope John Paul 2 visited everywhere ESPECIALLY Cuba and Eastern Europe, I don't want to go thru the details here. Even ex-Catholics and non-Catholics Christians desire a church that is satisfying/fulfilling to their christian life and only the Catholic Church can provide that. So There will be definately unity with our other Brethen.

-- clement jaikul jnr (valleyboy12@hotmail.com), May 30, 2001.

It will fall!! You will see. And it will happend much earlier then that. Perhaps 2015..

14 more years...

Have fun at your church, while you still can.

-- Ruslan (nuclearwave@gotmail.com), June 05, 2001.

R-P submitted the question in 1999, as if 2050 were some special future date. The Church founded by Christ is to remain until the end of time. You and I may not be here to greet the end of time. But the Catholic Church has no problem waiting till then. She is good for many more years, many more centuries. What will she be like, in 2050?

The same as she was in the days of the Roman Empire. The same as she was during 2,000 years of our history. Living for Jesus Christ; laboring in the world for Jesus Christ. Worshipping Jesus Christ, in His Holy Trinity together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, One God Holy, Holy, Holy! It may not be soon, and it may be ages from now. The Church of Jesus has no doubt he will come; it remains committed to His glorious return. The Father Almighty has known when this day is coming. 2050? It's a possibility.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 06, 2001.

She will be more beautiful.Washed and cleansed by the precious blood of the lamb.

-- Sunitha Allam (bsunitha@yahoo.com), June 08, 2001.

What a beautiful thought, Sunitha and my what a beautiful name! Peace be with you.

Glory be to the father and the son and the holy spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, a world without end. Amen.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 08, 2001.

Hopefully if all catholics find God´s principles or "the Divine Principle" and follow the true Parents direccions, the catholic church is not longuer going to exist because the purpose of the church would have being fulfilled. The catholics are waitting for the Messiah, and when the Massiah is here ¿what purpose have the group of people who are especting the presence of the Messiah if they had found it? Catholics have to be very humble and acept True Parents as the Crist our sevior. I hope everybody find them! God bless you all!

-- Jesús soria martín (martinsoria@123click.cl), July 08, 2001.

True Parents? What are you talking about?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

J. Soria,

Do you by any chance have a friend named AlexJr.?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 10, 2001.

My GOD is my life and help for...ever. My dear brother, Greetings in the name of "GOD".Dear brother please help full you . I am want to visit usa cristmas day.Please help you. usa christmas day i like it is my faivrat .Please respons ,it is spaiceally message, Thanks for our all....

Your brother,Faisal alam.

-- faisal alam. (faisalwithGOD@yahoo.com), October 05, 2001.

One of the Catholic Church's strengths is its traditionalism and rituals though the last two milleniums. While people continue to change their values based on current social trends, the Catholic Church continues to help guide us in understanding Jesus' teachings through the organized structure that began with Peter the Apostle, upon whom he built the church.

Using the resources available to God's people (everyone) the church continues to help us understand the Trinity in our own lives. The church will be different for every individual in the future, just as it is now. But God will continue to be the same, now and forever.

Didn't Jesus say, "Wherever two or more are gathered, there I will be (sic)". The future of the church as a physical structure or organization should not be our primary concern.

Isn't it a better to ask the question "How will I (and others) become more like Jesus in AD 2050?"

-- Dr. Stephen Mouton (drmouton@yahoo.com), March 03, 2002.

I am amazed atthe smallness of the Mormons. They are a roup much like the JW's who continually change their religion like one changes his underwear. OFTEN. Since 1830 they have changed leaders and theologies at an alarming rate. They bless Brigham Young on one day, then reject him the next. This trend is of the most hilarious that I have seen in Religious history. They constantly change to try to win converts only to lose many more in the process.

The Jw's and some others have predicted the DOOM of the world many times then use excuses of the kind as Oh we made a mistake and start all over again.

No matter how convincingly you try to prove the falseness of these two un-christian cults they come back with more lies and stupid stories.

The one characteristic of the Mormons taht makes me laugh is the way they gradually indoctrinate people to believe that Jesus was the brother of satan. and the JW's insist that Jesus is indeed the Angel that spoke to Mary and somehow inserted himself into her womb during the incarnation.

My final conclusion is that in 50 years the Catholic Church will be stronger than ever before and will indeed be in better union with her fallen away Churches. The world will indeed be better for it. Blessed be GOD forever. And may the Blessed Trinity of GOD be strong.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 04, 2002.

I believe that the Catholic Church will be suceeding all others. Now is the time in which we(the Church) are experiencing prejudices and hatred against us. The recent issuses of child molestations has led the secular world to believe that all preists are molestors. This is not the case. These things happen in all denominations not just the Catholic church. It is VERY wrong. It should not be happening but God has a plan for the Church. The attacks against us will just make us stronger. Observations of life show that people generally "attack" what they dont understand. It is our job as a Catholic family to educate those in need. The actions against the church in 2002 will only make us stronger in 2050. Peace Be With You!

-- Shellie Fleming (Skylar0924@aol.com), March 26, 2002.

Love ya, Shellie, for your strong message of hope! You trust in divine Providence.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 27, 2002.

Why are so many people scared about standing on there own 2 feet in this world. Stand Up, declare who you are and that you answer to nobody. As long as there are people in this world who feel that do not control there destiny I will if I get the chance. My prediction for the Catholic Church in 2050, If I have anything to do with it, it will be no more. Now dont get me wrong, I have nothing for respect for people of faith. I respect that and more power to them, BUT do not push it on me and keep it to yourselves. I DO hate the Catholic Church.

-- Richard (thinkcomp29@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

Dear Richard:
Ask us if we care. You have no wish to have it in your face? So who called you in here? Goodby; don't call us, we'll call you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 25, 2002.

I do care, Eugene.
I hope to see Richard kneeling beside me at Mass one day.
A Catholic

-- (@@@.@), April 27, 2002.

Richard

Your Quote: "I DO hate the Catholic Church"

You have just committed a mortal sin. Hate is forbidden in all of Christianity. Read your Bible it clearly tells you the Hatred is forbidden lest one suffers death by mortal sin.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), April 27, 2002.

Why are so many people scared about standing on there own 2 feet in this world. Stand Up, declare who you are and that you answer to nobody. As long as there are people in this world who feel that do not control there destiny I will if I get the chance. >>>>>>>>

This statement and many of Mrs. Joan Elmo-Storey's eerily remind me of a movie I saw recently. Bless The Child. Anyone else see that? Some of the crap that the New Dawn group in the movie and its leader, Eric, "preached" seriously sounds like this.

And the *really* scary thing? There are MANY groups out there like that.

Also, why would someone that doesn't believe in God, religion or the Catholic church even want to come to a Catholic forum? Who's forcing religion on you here, Richard? YOU came HERE, remember? No one sought you out.

My guess would be people like Tony, Richard, Dennis and others are trolls from the Yahoo message boards that aren't getting enough attention there and so they figure they'll find a place where they can go flame on God and religion, hoping to get a rise out of people. Nothing short of pathetic little people with WAY too much time on their hands and not enough brains in their head.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 27, 2002.

2050 is not that far away...especially when you consider the 2000 year history of the Church. Consider these:

Islam is today's fastest growing religion -Islam nations have a high birth rate -There is a steady stream of conversions to Islam -Few are lost to other religions -Muslims are generally very fervent about their religion

Christianity is undergoing a challenge -Low birth rates (contraception, abortion, loss of family values?) -Many Christians practice their faith marginally -Christianity is becoming more divided with each new denomination.

Catholicism is undergoing an even greater challenge -Most Catholics no longer follow the Magesterium (teaching authority) of the Church faithfully. Dissent is OK, but we must still respect and follow the teachings of our bishops and pontiff. If we practice our personal opinions as opposed to the teachings of the Church, we begin to imitate the Protestant doctrine of "private interpretation." -The term "ex-Catholic" and "lapsed-Catholic" is common nowadays. Most of us are lukewarm, or even cool about our faith. The average Catholic is not educated well enough in his/her faith, making him/her easy prey for secularism and other flavors of Christianity. -Do we have a shortage of clergy? (Noticed the question mark?) Actually, I think not. With practice tapering off, we actually have a decent number. Go to your parish and find out how easy it is to schedule an appointment with your priest. Remember, a Catholic who only goes to Sunday mass doesn't really take up much of a priest's time. One who goes to confession and seeks guidance from a priest makes more use of the spiritual resource available to us.

In summary, Catholics feel too secure today. We leave the job of evangelizing to our clergy and religious. Today, Catholics are born into the religion (that's how we expand in numbers, but not in practice). This should change. We should inspire non-Catholics so that they want to take part in our faith. So how do we do this?

Please read "Novo Millenio Ineunte." It is the pope's outline for a new evangelization. This new evangelization isn't going to take place through new missions, schools and preaching. It is through the laity. Each one of us should sanctify our lives and live the lives of good Catholics. Only thus can we inspire our separated Christian brethrens and non-Christians to believe in the Church's teachings.

In 2050, I see a much smaller Church. How many generations can Catholicism endure in families that practice marginally? I also see a Church whose laity and clergy is increasingly conservative. The confusion brought about during the turmoil of the 60's and 70's will be over. The consolidation will sow new seeds in the future for a new evangelization.

Please learn more about your faith. Practice it.

Feel free to email me.

-- Steven Yap (yapstev@iit.edu), May 11, 2002.

Hi Steven,

Nice post.

Regarding Islam, my opinion is that Muslim countries are suffering secularization just as Christian countries (especially Europe) have. Islam is an inherently fractured religion. If we look at the US, there is a division between "Middle Easterner" Islam and "African-American" Islam.

I don't get the impression that Islam is going to "out-populate" other religions, though...

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 11, 2002.

Have you people ever relized how many times the Catholic Church takes God's name out of the bible? They take out his name over a thounad times! Thats very wrong! If you read the true bible you would see that his real name is Jehovah. My mother was raised Catholic. She attended a Catholic school. In second grade she was slapped accross the face by a nun, and that same year while she was kicked around in the snow by two bullies, no nun came to her rescue. Although the catholic church ended up with all the inheritance that would have gone to my mother and her siblings, a nun refused to let my mother stay inside the classroom to stay warm, when it suddenly began to snow,and my mom was wearing a short sleeved dress. The nun said she was afraid my mom might steal something. My mom was a very quiet and shy child. There was a lot more of this type of abuse, not at all the way a christian would treat a child. By 2050 I think the Catholic church will have sold many of their art objects and some of their churches, but Im not sure who will run them, as I beleive there will be an exodus by many clergy members, as they will repent and seek salvation elsewhere.

-- John Smith (Prince Scrappy@aol.com), May 30, 2002.

John,

If you think that public school teachers are effective against "bullying," you haven't been watching all the news reports that expose the terrible problem that public schools are having. Anyone know what authorities believe about the cause of the "Columbine massacre" (among other school tragedies across the nation)? They believe that the perpetrators were being "bullied" by classmates.

Also, regarding "Jehovah," it's a mistransliteration of God's name! In English, a closer approximation is Yahweh. Catholic Bibles that I use prefer this closer transliteration (See Gen 4:26, footnote #6, for example).

For the record, here are some facts regarding the terms Jehovah:

1) Darby (far from an accurate translation!) has the most--Jehovah appears 6,829 times.

2) King James (The "official" Protestant Bible) contains seven instances of the word Jehovah! Sounds like you would burn the KJV up if you got the chance!

3) RSV (Protestant Edition) contains zero instances of the word Jehovah.

Yahweh is not used in these three Protestant translations. Based on my cursory survey, most Bible translations (Protestant and Catholic) seem to favor the term "the Lord." Here are some interesting frequencies of words:

Darby (4,328 = God) (658 = The lord) (6,829 = Jehovah)

KJV (4,787 = God) (7,053 = the lord) (7 = Jehovah)

RSV (4,744 = God) (7,058 = the lord) (0 = Jehovah)

You haven't mentioned what religion you embrace--are you a Jehovah's witness? Anyway, I hope you'll spend some more time with the Bible (preferably a good translation), and less time with anti-Catholic literature that makes silly accusations about taking God's name out of the Bible.

For what it's worth, you already believe that the Catholic Church preserved the Bible under the protection of the Holy Spirit for 1500 years before Protestants even came on the scene. So, I'm glad that you have such an unshaking faith in the Catholic Church's monks and priests who tirelessly spent their lives copying the words of the Bible for Christianity before a Catholic invented the printing press!

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 30, 2002.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come, Thy Will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

Hail, Mary
Full of grace; the Lord is with Thee,
Blessed art thou among women
And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS;

Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Most Glorious and Sacred Heart of Jesus,
Have mercy on us!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 30, 2002.

+

''You, however are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people; that you may proclaim the perfections of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. You who in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God; who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.''

Saint Peter, first Pope of the Holy Catholic Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 30, 2002.

Thanks, Mateo, for that interesting post on "Jehovah," "Yahweh," etc.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Whether the Church has survived to 2050, it doesn't matter. The Faith-the belief in God the Father, Jesus his Son, and the Holy Spirit will still be there in our hearts and souls.

-- Jessica (chiquitaredfox@yahoo.com), July 09, 2002.

That post earlier from John regarding the horrible abuse by the hands of those imposterous NUNS is terrible!! I'm so sorry, John, that that happened to your mom.

The Church will be holier, sturdier, and JOY-filled by the year 2050. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 09, 2002.

I predict that in the year 2050 someone, somewhere, will ask what the Catholic Church will be like in the year 3000 :)

I predict that this will be my last post on this thread :)

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), July 09, 2002.

Can I just say that the greatest gift that God has given us, now matter if you are protestant, catholic, or if you are a seeker of truth, is His love. No more is the need for us to cause tears, suffering, and arguments, and never really has there been an excuse for us to do so. Live and love in the underserved kindness of Jesus Christ, who is the messiah, the anointed of God

-- Truth teller (Notsaying@me.com), July 10, 2002.

I have waited until now to reply to all my friends of whatever colour or creed that have posted letters regarding the position of The Roman Catholic in 2050.Each and every one had a specific point to make,Mormons/Jews/Anti-Catholic/Different shades of Protestants and others but finally , may I remind one and all that each of us is a child of "God The Almighty" and his beloved son "Jesus" from his Cross said to all of us "Son Behold Thy Mother" thus including us all in his Family. We pray to Our Holy Mother Mary requesting her to ask her son "Jesus" to help & Protect us BECAUSE "Jesus" never refuses his Mother anything.The Blessed Virgin Mary I believe is the center of God's unfathomatable Mercy and through her intercession on our behalf he grants us her wishes....ALWAYS. Of course one can talk to God directly if that is their wish,but I wish to remind all that Our Blessed Lady as our mother never ceases to remind and ask us to return to her Son "Jesus" and all over the World "Our Divine Mother" makes appearances requesting us all to repent our Sins and return To God , her Son, while we have the Time. The Roman Catholic Church through Pope John PaulII is Daily requesting Everybody on Earth to Unite all men & women of goodwill to SPURN SATAN and return to God The Father Almighty,The Son & The Holy Ghost so as all of us can live together in harmony in Paradise Thank you for giving of your Time....You have used it well.

-- Dr.Brendan Flynn (bmapc@iol.ie), August 13, 2002.

Welcome, Dr. Flynn (from Ireland?)

Thanks for your comments.

I was just wondering ... Why did you put the Holy Name of Jesus in quotation marks four times?

Also, in reference to the Blessed Virgin Mary, you used a title that the Church does not use in the Catechism -- "Our Divine Mother." Lest any visitor misunderstand your words, I wanted to add that you are referring to the fact that Mary is the mother of a divine Person, Jesus. You are not saying that she herself is divine.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 17, 2002.

Yes, I had to wonder the same things. Mary never has been a divine Mother, she is Our Blessed Mother.

In past weeks I've had my fill of confrontation, and so I resisted the urge to question Dr. Brendan Flynn. Thanks for contributing, John.

Is this a ''doctor of divinity'' who writes? It's questionable as well to write:

". . . requesting her to ask her son "Jesus" to help & Protect us BECAUSE "Jesus" never refuses his Mother anything.- - (?) The Blessed Virgin Mary I believe is the center--(?) of God's unfathomatable Mercy and through her intercession on our behalf he grants us her wishes.... ALWAYS-- " / (?) /

CHRIST is the center, the Alpha and the Omega and Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He is therefore, central to God Almighty's mercy. Our Mother is a go-between for her children; bringing us closer to the center, who is Our Lord and hers. Furthermore, God answers ALWAYS, through her intercession (or otherwise); but not always in the manner we've hoped for. Therefore, attributing no failure absolutely to the holy intercession of Mary is presumption, or close to it. No one can presume on God. We beseech His mercy; He gives it OR-- He takes it away. She would be the first to understand this, Dr. Flynn.

God be with you, bless you and keep you from harm and misfortune; through Jesus Christ Our Lord-- Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 17, 2002.

i would like to think that the catholic church is still thriving, however it would be interesting to ask if everyone contributing their comment attends weekle mass? It is clearly obvious that church attendences are dropping and we need to see a upturn of people going back to sunday mass and how to go about that.

-- pauline bicker (bickerk@hotmail.com), September 14, 2002.

Jesus was olive skinned, not fair skinned, and he probably had brown eyes and dark brown hair. Those who depicted Jesus as a long blond haired, blue eyed European need to relinquich their arrogance and realize that their ethno-centrism has alienated many of their potential believers.

The next pope will be from Asia, probably South Asia or the Mid-East, and he will set the Catholic Church on its ear, where it ought to be. The Catholic Church will move to build bridges with the darker peoples of the world and will offer Jesus's (and God's) message of peace, love and salvation to those without wealth, but with a desire to become the saved children of God.

That or the islamists will go for the same audience (and then the European non-believers and arrogants will be in for BIG trouble!)

-- Ali Baba (Alibaba2@yahoo.com), December 01, 2002.

Ali Baba,

You're a racist.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), December 01, 2002.

"The Catholic Church will move to build bridges with the darker peoples of the world..."

Last time we tried this they blamed us saying our efforts were an invasion and an imposition. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 01, 2002.

The male line ancestor of Our Lord, David, was ''ruddy'' of complexion. I hesitate to say he was fair-- but olive skinned men aren't so ruddy. Redheads tend to have reddish complexions. Lots of Jews today have fair complexions. But; if Jesus turns out to be dark, I'll still love Him. I believe in Him, even if He surprises us and shows up looking like a Filipino. If He has blue eyes, many folks would reject Him, I guess. O ye of little faith!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 01, 2002.

Eugene, we meet again on this forum, Let's keep it light this time. Quite humorous, your Filipino remark,,Also very true.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 02, 2002.

You know, they say when Our Lady appears to people, she always appears in their race or ethnic background, and in their style of dressing. (well, maybe not completely in their style, because she is always modest.) Look at the different style of dress between Our Lady of Guadalupe and Our Lady of Fatima. Maybe Our Lord will appear to us the same. Interesting thought, I think.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), December 03, 2002.

Thank you, Ed. I greet you warmly; and I concurr.

My part of Calif has a vast Filipino community. Not all Catholic, but pretty nearly so. I meet them in Church often. They're great singers and musicians. Their devotion is genuine; all have a deep love for Christ and His Church. We could learn from them, and I know Our Lord loves them.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 03, 2002.

Isabel--
About Our Blessed Mother's appearances: --Look at the different style of dress between Our Lady of Guadalupe and Our Lady of Fatima--

Look also at her little hands, in almost all her apparitions. She holds them in the most humble and graceful attitude; an attitude of prayer to Our Lord.

When I see those well-meaning folks in Mass; palms held ourtward in their ''Orans'' praying. I wonder why their hands won't do it like Mary-- Pray like Our Lady?

Nevertheless, I have my taste, they have another. And God loves all of us impartially. He reads the human heart; and I can't.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 03, 2002.

People who love the Church say it will be better off; her enemeies predict her doom. Yet I certainly believe that - everpresent possibility of the Second Coming notwithstanding - 2050 has every potential to be part of a particularly dismal dark night for the Church militant. And that potential lies in my own generation and those youngins now in high school or beginning college.

It is true, a good number of people my age have a singular attraction to fidelity to the Church. But I suspect we are a vast, vast minority. Most of those born in the early 80s are now totally inundated by the sickness of rampant secular Capitalism. Though really I believe anything could happen between now and then, I think that as a seminarian, I must prepare for the worst. There is always the possibility that the priesthood will be far diminished, Catholic communities retreated into small subsistence bright-spots or else absorbed into one of the frightfully expansive secular pseudo- Christian "mega-Churches." Europe will probably become mostly Islamic; most of the massive cathedrals here will be sold, turned into museums, or otherwise disposed of.

And the Institutional Church? I know that she will remain ever faithful to her holy commision, and for that matter, ever-confident. It's like that song, "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine." No need for bomb shelters - we have the Lord.

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), December 03, 2002.

Yes, Eugene, I never was comfortable with that kind of praying. Our Lady is an example to us all, man, woman and child. If only we could all have half her virtue and holiness, what a glorious place earth would be then.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), December 03, 2002.

The Catholic Church will get even stronger than it is today as it has a stong bases compared to most cChristian denomination and has a universal image. Though Catholics are haveing less children if may not be the biggest religion and protestism is going to break up even more and will contradict each other.

-- Hyacinth D"cruz (dcruz@cyber.net.pk), January 10, 2003.

I predict that in AD 2050, the single remaining Catholic chat group on PalmNet will erupt in a major flame war over the Old New Order Mass versus the New New Order Mass, and that we will see the appearance of two new schismatic groups, the SSJPI and SSJPII, who will argue that the newly elected Pope, Maximilian Kolbe II, has slipped into heresy when he changes the universal language of the Church from Latin to Yiddish. (Oy vay!) ;-)

-- Christine L :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

Gee!
I had a flame war once, and nobody came.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 10, 2003.

They didn't? Well, that just burns me up, Eugene! ;-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

Oh boy! Are you two going at it, Hot and Heavy!.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 10, 2003.

Ed's about to be deleted all day. Suggestive posts. :>)# + + +

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 10, 2003.

Way to go Eugene. That's my boy!.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 10, 2003.

Careful, Ed, you're playing with fire! ;-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

Won't give a prediction, but just looked up some stats. Catholic families are having an average of 1.85 children per marriage. With the broken homes situation, a much lower percentage are going for the priesthood.

Church attendance is growing in the U.S. but that is from the Hispanic population. The priesthood, which is growing, is from Souh America, and Africa. Notice in churches today, how many non American, and European, priests are serving the people.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 10, 2003.

Christine, my ears are smoking, and by the way, that's the only smoking, not banned in NYC.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), January 10, 2003.

I hear you, Ed, but it's even worse out in California. Out here, you can't even smoke salmon! ;-)

-- (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

2050? Why that's only 47 years away. I think there will be many more gatherings for liturgies and prayers in homes. We will be worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, but underground. Young people are going to grasp the faith quickly and the use of charisms will be a normal way of life for the Church, much like the early Church as in Acts. Numbers may be down, but the faith will be so strong, and the veil between us and the Heavenlies will be really thin.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), January 10, 2003.

The Catholic Church will always be around, in some form or other.

-- Applepie (Wally@mail.com), January 16, 2003.

2050, the year of my unvealing

live a good life

-- Ernest François Landry < ( o ) > (landi@nbnet.nb.ca), January 22, 2003.

Maybe by 2050 the Roman Catholic Church may go down one notch to # 2. If the Church is not able to atone for all those mishaps of the past, it will happen. My estimation: 1,200 million Catholics on paper. 400 million or less attending services. It is the 400 million mark that other Christian denominations may surpass.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), March 12, 2003.

An Deserted Novus Ordo Cathedral: Attendance at the Novus Ordo Service Drops almost 20% in a Year It has taken over thirty years, as well as a scandal involving extortion, embezzlement, and perversion on the part of Novus Ordo ecclesiocrats in the highest ranks, but Catholics are now in large numbers deserting the New Order. Its falsity is now hard to deny, as it no longer has the four identifying marks of the true Church: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Naturally, the true Roman Catholic Church continues, even if it be in the catacombs, as it were, just as Pope Pius XII predicted it would be. Our Lord never promised that His true Church would be large or wealthy. In fact, Scripture seems to indicate just the opposite and could well describe the situation of the traditional Catholic churches and chapels around the world where the light of the Faith still burns, even as the New Order attempts to quench it

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), March 13, 2003.

50 years is a very short time period for the Church; but it is increasingly becoming a very large time period for humanity what with scientific development and the rush toward immorality. in 50 years you will find that Steve marries Steve and they have a little baby (conceived by them and born of them) called Steve -- and it will be judged OK by everyone for this to happen. you might even find that we are preparing to relocate to another planet, who knows.

meanwhile, little Protestant denominations all over the world will continue to spring up claiming that God would have wanted cloning,....etc. the Catholic Church, if it sticks to its principles, will look more and more outdated.

God will start to wonder why he ever bothered.

-- Phrophet of Doom (doom.prophet@doom.com), March 13, 2003.

on a related matter, what would happen if we destroyed the planet - eg Nuclear War - before God comes back??? does the 2nd Coming not guarantee that world destruction will not happen as, otherwise, the Bible becomes false? maybe Presidents etc would survive a Nuc War but surely mankind would die out in a short period thereafter.

-- Phrophet of Doom (doom.prophet@doom.com), March 13, 2003.

Hello, "Prophet of Doom" (or is it "Phrophet"?).

You wrote: "the Catholic Church, if it sticks to its principles, will look more and more outdated. God will start to wonder why he ever bothered."

The Church is "counter-cultural." She does not care if she "look[s] ... outdated." She only cares to teach the turth, to please God, and to do his will.

No need to worry about "God ... start[ing] to wonder why he ever bothered." God never "wonders" about anything or thinks about what he has done in the "past." To our eternal God, all of our dimension of "time" is meaningless. Everything, past/present/future, is just one big "present" to him. He sees/foresees it all constantly. He never regrets what he has done, because everything he does is perfect.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 14, 2003.

agree with all of this. No Question.

point is, though -- we should expect Church attendance to decline for ever.

"faith" seem to be inversely proportional to "x" where "x" is a function of wealth, education (perceived ability to challenge "convention"), nurture (Z had an abortion so that makes it OK), nurture, nurture, nurture,....

when i say "outdated", that is the perception of the Church, but also of Faith as a concept. that does not mean that it is right (it is WRONG).

-- Phrophet of Doom (doom.prophet@doom.com), March 14, 2003.

Yes indeed, situation ethics will be the order of the times. Figure what you want to do, then make an ethic to fit. 1973 Roe vs Wade. The 7 wise men found the right to privacy. So went 40 milllion americans.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.

The following are extracted statements:

One of the most notable threads on the site reports how the Los Angeles contingent of bishops was so alarmed about a document being prepared at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which would bar the Ordination of homosexuals as diocesan priests or for religious orders, that they approached Pio Cardinal Laghi to express their opposition. Laghi, until this past fall prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education, allegedly told the L.A. bishops not to worry because Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's proposed document would never get through the Vatican vetting process. The View Of Rome Rome, however, while condemned for its sexual intransigence, is perceived as a hotbed of that same forbidden behavior. "I have heard likewise that there are more gay men in the Vatican than all of San Francisco. I feel that to protect the a---- of the 75% there will be the likes of the great witch-hunts where one accused the other." All 12 articles can be found on the web site mentioned above either on the "Home Page" or through the link entitled, "The Wanderer Archives."

This is part of an article I have just come across. It is from the Wanderer. a newspaper loyal th Rome. If it is only half true, indeed what will the church lool like in 50 yers. The thought is not comforting.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), March 14, 2003.

i should think that whatever you might be comfortable with, that'll be your star of David. just recycle and don't cheat on your wife. at least for 47 years. yup.

let love rule, b.p.m.

-- bill p mund (bilpmund@hismail.com), August 15, 2003.

Let me begin by saying that I am NOT a cathloic, and never would be. I am a Christian. I am a REAL Christian. Jesus Christ is LORD! Many of the people in this world have been decieved by Satan! I will personally testify that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. And this whole Trinity buisness (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)- you are limiting the God Almighty! For we as Christians are literally God's family, enwhich Jesus will give us the gift of life! I understand that God Almighty is the Father, the creator of all things, and that His only begotten son Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior, and that Jesus will return for His loyal servants, and that the Holy Spirit fills our hearts. For I pray to God. For God is the only god, and I would not pray to anything else. So how does Catholisism get that the HUMAN mother of the Lord Jesus is holy? I have not read once in the Holy Bible that Mary is holy. What I do remember is something in Matthew, 12:46-50 to be exact. While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told Him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Therefore, I say this: DO NOT pray to Mary! For she is one of the many humans that have died on this earth. Pray to GOD ALMIGHTY, and listen to every word of our Lord Jesus, as he told us in the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). And through the blood of the Lamb may we seek forgiveness of our sins. For it is not about you and I, ladies and gentlemen, it is about the will of God. Now let me say where we will be in 2050, in the year of our Lord, in my opinion: We are at a point in the world where we have the physical nuclear power to destroy ourselves. However, God is a loving God, God is love, thus he would not let us blast ourselves off of the planet. I have done plenty research to find the time of man will be 6 millenium, 6,000 years. Adam, to the best of our knowledge, was born 4004 B.C. Jesus our Lord lived 6 B.C. to 30 A.D. Thus we can say the end time for man is the year 2004, in the year of our Lord, Jesus. Here is what I, Greg J. predict: After the true Christians, the ones that KNOW Jesus Christ, (the church)are 'caught up' (raptured) with Jesus, the earth will face 7 years of tribulation before the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ on the earth to rule with a iron rod with the title "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". Now, this is the time to come to Jesus, for an evil man will set forth conquering, and to conquer. This man will cause war, famine, and death. He will also lead the world into the "one world government (already neatly set up due to the entire world, especially the U.S., is being controlled and ruled by Rome. Yes, Rome. The Roman Catholics control every aspect of power still to this day.). I believe that (not meaning to offend anybody!) the cathloics will be so caught up listening to the "pope" and his false doctorines that they will be decieved into listening to the evil one, the antichrist. Heed my words, and remember them: If millions upon millions of people dissapear, and a 7 year peace treaty is signed with God's chosen people (Israel) by the one to rule and defile the earth until Jesus returns, REPENT OF YOUR SINS! Do not be decieved. Read that Bible, preferably the King James Version or the NIV. Once again I do not mean to offend or incriminate any cathloics. But I do want everyone who reads this to test what the "pope" says and what catholisism preaches to the Holy Bible. Do not be decieved by satan, as most of the world has, for in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was dark, and uninhabitible by humans. This was the dark time in history that lucifer was put in charge of, in effect, ruling the earth and finishing God's work so he could put man there. But lucifer decieved Him. And Eve ate from that tree, as did Adam. Not the tree of life, mind you, or this world would be completely different, but the forbidden tree. Thus the first man on earth sinned against God Almighty and Eve was clearly decieved by Satan. Don't let this be you. In the unmatchable name of Jesus Christ our Lord, who will return, Greg J. (sorry for the book)

-- Greg J. (mosey@prodigy.net), August 18, 2003.

Dear Greg,

Let me begin by saying that I AM a Catholic, and always will be. I am a Christian. I am a REAL Christian, a member of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, not a member of one of the thousands of conflicting denominations founded by men 1500 years later, in opposition to Christ's own Church.

You state: "I will personally testify that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father". On this point Greg, you are right - and you wouldn't know this, or any other Christian truth, if the Holy Catholic Church had not preserved and defended the teachings of Christ for 1500 years before your tradituion came into existence.

"For I pray to God. For God is the only god, and I would not pray to anything else".

A: Prayer is simply commumication. To say we cannot TALK to anyone but God is silly. However, Catholics WORSHIP God alone, and Him alone do we serve, just as our holy book, the Bible, instructs.

"So how does Catholisism get that the HUMAN mother of the Lord Jesus is holy? I have not read once in the Holy Bible that Mary is holy".

A: Perhaps you recall that God sent an angel to Mary to tell her she was the most blessed of all women.(Luke 1,42). Mary responded by stating, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that all people thereafter would call her blessed. (Luke 1:48) Catholics do. Do you? Do you hold Mary in the same reverence that Elizabeth did? (Luke 1:43) Do you fail to recognize Mary as the woman described in Rev 12:1-5? Can you read that description and not feel a sense of profound awe?

"Therefore, I say this: DO NOT pray to Mary! For she is one of the many humans that have died on this earth. Pray to GOD ALMIGHTY"

A: So, you don't ask other humans to pray for you? Catholics know that Mary is human. Since when is it improper to ask other humans for prayers of intercession? Beseeching Mary (or anyone else) to pray for us does not take anything away from God. Rather, it multiplies our prayers TO GOD.

"However, God is a loving God, God is love, thus he would not let us blast ourselves off of the planet".

A: On the contrary, God has given us free will, and will allow us to do any perverse thing we choose to do, even though He does not desire or will that we do such things. If we decide to destroy our planet or ourselves, God cannot and will not intervene.

"After the true Christians, the ones that KNOW Jesus Christ, (the church)are 'caught up' (raptured) with Jesus"

A: Rapture theology is a modern tradition of men. It is not Christian teaching. Jesus did not teach it. The apostles never heard of it. Neither did any Christian on earth until a couple of Protestant preachers thought up the whole scheme in the early 19th century. Catholics do not accept such unbiblical and unchristian traditions.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 18, 2003.

Poor Greg,
You expect to be raptured before the day Jesus returns in glory???

As if you had been faithful. You really aren't, because you left His sheepfold, the catholic faith. But, in any case; Our Lord will ''rapture'' His Church up into the air to meet Him; ON THE LAST DAY. This is the true scriptural account. All will come on the last day; the living and the dead will be judged. The saints rise up to eternal life and the damned rise from the graves to eternal punishment. Before the last day, every trial & tribulation will be our common lot in the world. No one will go up in rapture until His 2nd advent; on the LAST DAY. (John 11, :23 :24)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 18, 2003.

If the world hasn't destroyed itself, the Catholic Church will be the same as it is now --------- With God loving each of His children, regardless if we love Him or even know Him, only because we are His creations.

That's the reason Jesus gave up His life.

But why are we all fighting here??? Are we not all children of the same Father, who loves us all.

-- Cath (calistababy@starhub.net.sg), October 18, 2003.

Wow what a long thread, after reading it i feel like it could go on forever :) Anyways i would just like to say we have no real idea of what will happen by the time of 2050, but one thing is Certain, the Catholic Church operates in cycles where people are devout, loving, and righteous and then when the good times come, we mess it up, and in those periods of darkness great saints are raised up to rebuild the faith. It has happend more than once before, and in all likelyhood it COULD happen again. I am not however going to say one way or the other.

For me, i was in darkness for the first part of my life and i literally hated God and the Catholic Church. I found out that the more i protested, the more God sent me to places i would not rather be But he only sent me to learn patience,love,obedience,truth and all the teachings of Jesus.

And if nothing else Catholicism has given me more than i could ever return. And maybee this is why the Church has grown so big and never gets beaten down completely, because you cannot outdue the Lord in generosity.

Peace all.

-- Stewart R. (register@daenet.ca), January 17, 2004.

I saw this thread a little over a year ago, and i have finally come up with my prediction...

By the year 2050:

Satanic cults and wiccan covens are on the rise, the number of divisions in the church and the VAST differences of opinion on morality have pushed ALOT of children and adults into the only thing that personally feels good to them... many parents fear their children.

Protestant denominations have doubled, there are now 60,000 different 'flavors' of christianity with their own 'benefits packages' for members. while the number of denominations has doubled, the overall number of protestants has dropped by 400 million, nearly half of which have joined either a new age religion, cult or buddism/hinduism in a wave of fad beliefs.

The Catholic Church has lost a good number of members to the protestant denominations, mostly because of guilty conciences being assauged, and several have split off into splinter cells of ultra trad. the net loss, however, only ammounts to 100 million. a massive influx of episcopaleans, now disenchanted with the modernism wracking their church, have flooded in to rejoin the catholic faith. nearly half of the Lutheran Synods have converted to Catholocism (en mass) as well. with 1.1 billion members, the Catholic Church is the only Christian faith that has any significant following, or can boast of matching the numbers of wicca and islam. the church still stands against the society of death, and will not allow female preistesses. this is a major contention point with the 60,000 protestant denominations.

Most world governments have condemned nearly all acts of religion in order to quel any sort of 'discrimination.' a massive shift in the populations of the world is leading to a more and more catholic France, Italy, Germany, Spain and Mexico. There is talk in several of these countries of establishing an official religion as catholicism. a war is brewing over the increasing persecutions of the remaining Catholics in other countries, who are generally imprisoned in camps when caught in secret worship. Surprisingly enough, many muslim nations support the catholics in this move...

there, thats the stage i see

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 18, 2004.

The Catholic Church will be struggling. The unwillingness to change has turned many catholics away from the church, and will continue to do so. The one stronghold left for the church will be in Latin America. North Americans and Europeans will be seeking out more liberal protestant churches and other churches for those who consider themselves to be free thinkers such as Unitarian Universalists. The catholic church is seen as an example of religious fascism, and unless it manages to change this notion of itself, its popularity will continue to decline indefinitely. It's all good, though if it is in the name of putting religion in its proper place.

-- Jesse Bedore (bedore33@potsdam.edu), February 13, 2004.

I am assuming, og course, Jesus does not return, as if he does, their will be no "CHurch" to speak og in the origional sence, as all things will be complete and called unto the Lord to determine.

However, given social trends and hisotry, I see, in the next 50 years, a continuation of the decline in Churches in europe, but along wiht it, the continuation of Moral decay which brings about social unrest and a higher crime rate. Peopel will openly mock any Christain, this incliudes Cahtolics, as thry do now, and this will intensify.

However, it will ebb off, as slowly, Most of Secularist, socialist Europe enters into Bankrupcy. Even after they manage to Unify into a single nation state, Euriope, with its ever increasign Beurocracy, slow politics, and secularism, will have the issues of Teen Pregnancy, divorce, and civil unrest. Few will be truely Happy in Europe, and the CHurches power will be low, but rising. I do not think it iwll be storng in that period, I feel too much form the outside will have weakened it, but I feel that, after all this time, several things will begin to vhange and those still in Church will be die hards, who buckle down and begin to truely liv right, observing the chaos about them. They will refuse to accept the secular ways of socialist Europe, which has brought misury ipon Misury. This will creatr foe threm increase dhatred for a while, until their lives end off more successful, then we will see the beginnigns of a turn around.

In south Americas, traditionally dominated by Cahtolics, we will see a more diverse lot, much like North America was, filled proimarily with Cahtolics, btu also with increasign noncahtolic preasence. However, religioys devotion, as well as economic growth, shall continue to increase, causign the area, along with Asia, to be the new superpower.

The trent toward what we called Modernism will have done its damage and rleigion wont be taught in schools, but at the same time, rleigious life will be more devout, and the nations will become ever stronger.

In North America, Canada is in ruins, morally, and few attend Church, but likewise crime and promisciyu ar eincreased, as in Europe. The CHurch will likely simpley loose gorund here.

In the Unitd States, Christains finally do manage to stem the tide somewhat, but in the ever increasing secularism also still an issue, we will have the usual mockeries and battles still raging, but overall, Religion will be a more respectable position.

In Asia, where COmmunism has fallen, or is in greater decline, we see an increase in Christauinity, and an increase in economy, which i sadly offset by the popyklarion growth, but nonetheless, the Church is growing and changign lives heir as never before.

This si base don statistical information.It may not come to pass as I descirbed, just saying.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 13, 2004.

Greg J wrote the following in August of 2003. "Adam, to the best of our knowledge, was born 4004 B.C. Jesus our Lord lived 6 B.C. to 30 A.D. Thus we can say the end time for man is the year 2004, in the year of our Lord, Jesus." He also claimed that by this time, Rome would control the world. It seems as if the prediction isnt going as planned, although there is some time left. Jesus said that even He did not know "the day or the hour." Also, Greg J recommended reading the King James or NIV Bible. I would recommend learning Hebrew and Greek, and reading the Bible in its written language. Other than this, I see some good points in what both the Protestant and Catholic folks are saying on this site. Aren't we all Christians? Do we not share One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism? I suppose we should start acting like it, since Christ did pray for Christian unity before his death. God bless you all...let us strive to embrace our common orthodox faith.

-- Steve Aguzzi (steven.aguzzi@ptsem.edu), February 18, 2004.

As a baby I am baptised in the name of ... THE CHRIST. I hold the light of the christ in my heart... and I do shine that LIGHT... no ONE will walk in darkness... I will be in ROM to support the holder of the ENERGY of THE CHRIST LIGHT in March 2004

much love an light to all of you that seek the TRUTH...

remember, whatever your persuation, faith, certitude...

be true to your hearts and do not be in your head,,,

-- Marianne Rink (ozreiki@thehub.com.au), February 19, 2004.

Jmj

Hello, Steve. You wrote:
"Aren't we all Christians? Do we not share One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism? I suppose we should start acting like it, since Christ did pray for Christian unity before his death. God bless you all...let us strive to embrace our common orthodox faith."

Steve, like your Catholic ancestors of the past (who would no doubt be in great sorrow to know that you are a Protestant at Princeton Theological Seminary), we Catholics do not just believe in a "mere Christianity" -- a watered-down, least-common-denominator Christianity. We believe in the fullness of the truth -- with no compromises and no admixture of error. That's why we and you do not have a "common orthodox faith." You are missing some Christian beliefs, and some of what you do believe is heterodox, not "orthodox." We share some specific common beliefs with you, but because you are not yet [or no longer?] Catholic, we do not share with you the entire "one Faith" that God wants us to share.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 20, 2004.

First of all, please no one write me an angry e-mail or snap at me. I am a Roman-Catholic, if it matters, and my input is a question from my brother, that, amazingly took a while to answer.The question is this: Why are you Catholic?/Why do u belve what you belive?

-- Marie S. F. (Summer_rox2008@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

I am Catholic because Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, founded one Church and one Church only as the channel of salvation for all mankind, and specifically stated His intention that all people of all nations should be members of that one Church; and history conclusively reveals that the Catholic Church and no other is that one Church founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles.

I believe what I believe because Jesus Christ told the Church He founded, and no other, that the Holy Spirit would guide it to all truth, and that whatsoever it binds upon earth is bound in heaven; and what I believe is what His Church teaches as binding truth upon earth, which therefore carries God's personal guarantee of truth. His Holy Word describes that one Church as "the pillar and foundation of truth". Why would I want to belong to any manmade church that came along centuries later, and which does not have His promise of truth?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 26, 2004.

Amen, Amen, Paul!

Beautiful post!

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 26, 2004.

Yes, that post by Paul is very good.

There used to be a link at Father John C. John McCloskey's website on the Church in the 21st century. I cannot find it now. It was quite uplifting in that we are at the beginning, right now, of a great renewal of the faithful.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), April 27, 2004.

If it helps, let us contemplate this truth:

Jesus Christ, Founder of the Catholic Church, differs totally from all other holy men in history; in that He is truly the Son of God. The Creator of all the universe exists without beginning or end before time and matter, and Jesus is God in the flesh, singularly made Man. Jesus is Son of the Almighty Father; infinitely holy in union with Him and a Third Person, called the Holy Spirit. He became true man; in time once and for all; during the reign of Augustus Caesar.

This isn't speculation. There were historical witnesses and later on writings, that confirm this fact. He lived, died and rose from the dead; with many witnesses later willing to be martyred in testimony to this truth. These martyrs weren't fanatical crazies; many were holy men and women even able to make accurate prophesies and heal the lame and the dying. They ALL did it in His name.

These saints in the Catholic Church gave ample, irrefutable testimony to the revealed truth: Jesus is God. Not WAS; IS. He never again will die, His kingdom is eternal.

We believe it because He revealed it to His followers without any doubt whatsoever. Jesus made many undeniable demonstrations while on earth that proved his power over life and death. He worked many signs to convince every soul who saw them, He was all- powerful. He showed us that He is GOD.

No other founder, of any religion primitive or spiritual, ever gave such proofs of genuine divinity. --Only Jesus, who fulfilled in Himself the prophesies first made to the Jews of antiquity. God revealed Himself to them before the historical era, and promised a Holy One to come, ''in the fulness of time.'' He would be a son of their race, their own Messiah. In the eventual fulfillment of every prophesy, this was really God's only-begotten Son.

We believe it because GOD prophesied it exactly, fulfilled His promise, and in so doing REVEALED it.

He came to the world, died on the cross-- for all of mankind, and rose again, going back to the Father when He had formed His Holy Church. He founded the Church, and He IS that very Body; and we are the members of His Body who believe in Him. We form the Church in God's Creation, with Jesus as Our Head. That's why, ultimately, we must believe in the Catholic Church. God is with us!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 27, 2004.

Has nobody noticed that Greg´s reseach from which he concluded that the world will end in 2004 has a major flaw in it? If Adam was born in 4004 B.C., and the time of man will be 6000 years, should he not have concluded that the world has ended in 1996?

-- Jacco de Feijter (jdefeijter@tele2.nl), June 29, 2004.

Well, we're halfway into 2004, and last time I checked I was still here. You all seem to be here. Things seem to be in order. Oh well. Still got six months for armageddon. I can't wait!

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.

July 2004,As Iam eighty two years young I do not expect to around for another forty eight years..but I know that The Blessed Virgin the Mother of Jesus was taken up to Heaven "Body & Soul"as she was without sin and therefore I believe Our Blessed Lady the mother of Jesus,the Second Person of the Trinity is, as Elizabeth said, said "Blessed are thou amongst women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus,This is why I pray to the mother of God,and I swear on the Bible that the Virgin Mary has never refused me anything I have prayed for EVER . I earnestly ask all my Brothers & Sisters to turn to our Blessed Mother who will always answer our Prayers if we return to her Divine son Jesus the second person of the Holy Trinity . May the Holy Family Bless you and yours as Jesus promised "I shall be with you until the end of Time.

-- Dr.Brendan Flynn (bmapc@esatclear.ie), July 03, 2004.

Dear Dr Brendan, I fully agree with you. God Bless, Ramanie.

-- Ramanie Weerasinghe (lilanw@yahoo.com), July 03, 2004.

Here is God's prediction concerning the existence of His Holy Catholic Church in the year 2050 ...

"I am with you always, even to the end of time." (Matthew 28:20)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 09, 2004.

That only asusmes time has not ended...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 09, 2004.

I am posting this AFTER you posted the above. Therefore time has not ended. :-)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 09, 2004.

Har Har Har, justw ait till 2050... THEN tell me of time has ended or not!!!

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 09, 2004.

J. F. Gecik wrote: "Steve, like your Catholic ancestors of the past (who would no doubt be in great sorrow to know that you are a Protestant at Princeton Theological Seminary), we Catholics do not just believe in a "mere Christianity" -- a watered-down, least- common-denominator Christianity. We believe in the fullness of the truth -- with no compromises and no admixture of error. That's why we and you do not have a "common orthodox faith." You are missing some Christian beliefs, and some of what you do believe is heterodox, not "orthodox." We share some specific common beliefs with you, but because you are not yet [or no longer?] Catholic, we do not share with you the entire "one Faith" that God wants us to share."

J. F., I find it highly ironic that you would write such a divisive response, considering there has been a massive push since Vatican II for ecumenical relations with "seperated brethren" (a push to reform Christian unity with Protestants is also a theme in the Catholic Catechism). Beyond this, it seems presumptuous to think that Princeton Theological Seminary only engages Protestant students, or only utilizes Protestant clergy or professors. This is simply not the case: there are a multitude of Catholic theologians and historians at PTS, some professors, some students. They don't seem to think the divide is too great, or the "heterodoxy" of Reformed ideologies too wide a chasm as to not attempt a bridge. To generalize all Protestant theology as "watered-down and least common denominator" is a truly arrogant. Certainly you have heard of the great Reformed theologian Karl Barth and his connections with the RC Church during Vatican II. Perhaps one should read his magnum opus "Church Dogmatics" before frivolously throwing around words. It is striking how much Catholic and Reformed theologies really do have in common.

-- Steven Aguzzi (steven.aguzzi@ptsem.edu), September 30, 2004.

Steven, JF may have been a little harsh but everything he said is true. “Orthodox” means “correct belief”. Many protestant beliefs contradict Catholic beliefs, so they cannot BOTH be fully correct and orthodox. Ecumenism for a Catholic cannot mean throwing out parts of the original Catholic faith just so that we can be the same as protestants. Ecumenism for a Catholic means respecting others’ heterodox beliefs while not watering down our own orthodox faith. We share what we have in common with protestants, we try to be friendly and work together, but we must not deny the truth. Protestants are free to change their beliefs as they have in the past. The Catholic Church cannot change its orthodox faith.

St Paul spoke the truth when he said “There is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism”, because in his time all Christians belonged to the orthodox Catholic faith. Yes, you and I share one Lord and (probably) one Baptism, but though you “have faith”, you share only PART of the orthodox faith. Yes, we can and should build bridges between us, but if we were to restrict our faith to only what we have in common with you, we would “water down” our faith. I don’t think JF meant to imply that the theologians at Princeton don’t do anything worthwhile. They do. But they don't teach the full orthodox faith.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 30, 2004.

The Catholic Church,(to it's regret) erred badly in the ecumamism experiment. They gave so much away, in trying to dialogue with Protestants, that many Catholics, disallusioned and angry, walked out and never came back. It was an awful mistake in tactics.

-- Dooley (Highgear10@aol.com), October 01, 2004.

I beleive that in the not too distant future the false mesiah will inhabit the throne of the pope and demand the worship of all the world. If we don't worship him then we will be killed. An outward show of that worship may include taking a mark. Jesus said that when people tell you that I am in the desert places or in the inner chambers don't beleive it. He said that his coming will be like when you can see lightning in the sky from the east to the west. In other words you can't miss it. He also said that we will be caught up in the air with Him. He also said that if the Spirit of God doesn't live in your heart then you are none of His. I have read all of these thing in the bible.

-- Steven Long (longstephen@hotmail.com), October 01, 2004.

Yes Steven, I'm sure you did. Unfortunately, you had no authoritative source of valid interpretation for what you read, which is why you arrived at such bizarre conclusions. The Bible is not a source of truth unless it is properly interpreted, which is why God gave the Scriptures to the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, not just to private individuals who would be forced to play guessing games regarding the meaning of the Word of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 01, 2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- A Time Predicted by the Enemies of the Church "In a hundred years time . . . bishops and priests will think they are marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter when in fact they will be following our flag . . . The reforms will have to be brought about in the name of obedience." (Alta Vendita/masonic document)[12]

In the book, Ecumenism, written by a freemason in 1908, it says "the goal is no longer the destruction of the Church but rather to make use of it by infiltrating it."[13]

The church is in dire trouble and to keep denying it is foolhardy. Catholics must get out of their lethargy.

-- Torry (Budtre@aol.com), October 02, 2004.

The Church as the Body of Christ is always renewed by the rise of saints and genuine holiness of life. As a visible society of human beings, the Church has always had traitors - both premeditated and spontaneous: as in evil Masons or Commies or others infiltrating its seminaries or convents, chanceries or colleges...or betraying great responsibility out of private sin or schemes.

As far as the reform goes... well, things looked really scary in the 1980's and 1990's as far as open schism went. Now however JP2 has outlived and largely outmanuvered those forces. I mean, name one big anti-Papal theologian you've heard of recently. Hmmmm. neither have I! Name one big time cardinal or archbishop who feels safe challenging the Pope or Catholic doctrine anywhere but in forums he's sure won't get much air-time?

In other words, those in the Church who hope the Church will become a big Protestant sect or demonination are dying out, have lost their cultural "elan" within the Church...they're old and being replaced.

We'll always have problems with quality of clergy and laity... the same old same old of lost opportunities with in-fighting between spiritualities and charisms.

But I think by 2050 the school debacle will have settled - all the wishy-washy catholic colleges and universities will be secular and new truly Catholic ones will have taken their place with new orders to run them.

Our parish lives may be better run - more involvement, better catechism (it can't get worse). Better homilies and singing... if only because the Africans and Asians seem to know how to sing.

We'll be more Marian too - More Guadalupe and less Lourdes (although little girls will still be named both).

There will be factions pining for the "good old days" of the 1990's and 2000's when St.John Paul II reigned and all was right in the world".

And hopefully my children will have grandchildren and a couple of priests and nuns will be among their number.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 05, 2004.

I feel that the Catholic Church will be stronger. I know in my area the call to the ministry has increased. At this time there are 23 young men that have entered the seminary in the last year, which I feel is a sign that many are picking up their cross and wanting to follow Jesus. We must remember it took many years before people believed and took up their own cross to follow Jesus. I really feel we are now seeing more people coming back to church which means the prays of many have been answered. I feel more people are turning back to God and his word, because they felt empty with out him. I also feel these people are helping others return to the Catholic Church. When my dad passed away I got a chance to visit with him one day about 2 1/2 months before he passed away, and one of the questions he asked me was how has the Catholic Church changed and would they accept him back. I told him that the priest are more down to earth and very will to talk to you and are more forgiving of your sins. They want you back and they don't judge you like they did. After our visit my dad ended up going back to church and when he did pass away he was able to do it more peaceful. I know the abuse that happen in the church has not help at all, but if people really look around and want to judge everyone for a few then they need to start looking in their own back yard. At least the church has openly admitted the wrong that has happen and are public changing their policies. I really belive in the year 2050, my grandchildren and great grandchildren will be attending and building their relationship with God and Jesus along with many of the world at that time. The sins of the past will be left in the past, and the building of the Catholic Church will have some awsome builders in that had a great foundation from today.

-- Alicia Larimore (alicia.larimore@mutualofomaha.com), October 20, 2004.

Seems that some have went off topic, as I pain stakingly read down the list of answers. To ask what the Roman Catholic church be like? Only God knows. If it is the true church, which I doubt, it will continue, if not it will continue. Presuming that Christ hasn't returned before that date. To address the comment of praying to saints, common since can incure on that. The saints are in heaven, if they were to hear our prayers, would they not hear our sufferings and trials here on earth? Doesn't seem to be much of a heaven if you have to listen to prayers all the time. Another comment on the man who said the Catholic Church has preserved the bible for 1500 years. I don't think the first bible was published untill after 1500 A.D. And the reason it was published in a known tongue or in languages understood so all people could seek out the scriptures for themselves.

-- annonymous (turtlepower@msn.com), October 21, 2004.

You really need to do some basic reading. The first machine-printed Bible was printed in the 1500's because that's when the printing press was invented! Is that what you meant by "published"? The Bible was the first book printed on the new machine by its inventor, Johannes Guttenberg, a Catholic. Between the time the Catholic Church first compiled the Bible at the end of the 4'th Century, and the time the printing press was invented 1,200 years later, the only copies of the Bible that were available were the huge, laboriously hand-printed copies produced primarily by Catholic monks in monasteries.

The Bible has always been produced in "known languages". That is precisely the reason the text was reproduced in Latin. The 5% of the population of the known world at the time who were educated could all read Latin fluently, while the 95% who were illiterate could not read at all. Therefore, keeping the Bible in Latin made it immediately accessible to every person who could read, regardless of their ethnic background. In spite of this fact, hand-lettered copies of the Scriptures were available in 14 vernacular languages before Martin Luther was born. This however did not allow "all people" to "seek out the scriptures for themselves", for the reasons given above. Which was no problem, since they had access to the fullness of truth the same way Christians had received the Good News since Apostolic times - through the teaching of the Church He founded for all men, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth". (1 Tim 3:15) - which incidentally has endured, prospered and grown for 2,000 years, while manmade denominational churches of the past few hundred years spring up and disappear regularly.

Are you saying that you don't have much of a life because your friends ask you to pray for them? Personally, I find praying for my friends and family uplifting and fulfilling. How much more perfectly will I be able to pray on their behalf when I am before the throne of God Himself! What better way to spend one's presence in heaven, until the universe and time itself cease to exist, after which intercession will cease, for no-one will ever be in need again, except the lost who will be beyond hope and beyond help.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 21, 2004.

Judging from what I've seen during the past 50 years, (at 49, I'm probably only cognizant about the last 43 years.) During that time with the exception of a change from latin to a language (English) I could understand, the priest facing us, and some unfortunate musical choices from time to time. I expect, though won't be here to see it, very little change of anything truely important.

I would add the possibility of a greater involvement of the laity will be needed. I think the priest shortage, unless some change in the current possition on married priests changes could be problematic.

Just my thoughts, I understand many have a much more dire view of the future.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 21, 2004.

Gutenberg’s first printed Bible was actually produced in 1440, nearly 100 years before the first protestants appeared. And Gutenberg’s very first printed work was the text of the Catholic Mass. He hoped that his invention would stop unauthorized variations. Ironically, his invention indirectly helped give birth to the disastrous splitting of the Church, because Bibles became so cheap that the gullible became easy prey to greedy kings and protestant demagogues pushing the theory that if you have a Bible you can interpret from it for yourself all the religion that you need, and you don’t need the Church.

Anon your comment “Doesn't seem to be much of a heaven if you have to listen to prayers all the time” ignores the nature of heaven, where time does not exist. It also ignores the purpose of prayer. Of course God and the saints in Heaven know what we need. The important thing is not them HEARING our prayers, it’s for us to SAY our prayers and admit that we need God’s help.

My predictions for the Church in 2050:

Only 10% of the world’s Catholics will live in Europe. There will have been huge growth in the Church in Africa and Asia, especially since some large Asian and Middle Eastern countries finally granted freedom of religion. And a corresponding growth in priestly and religious vocations in these areas. Most of the Popes of the 21st century will have been from Africa, Asia and Latin America.

The Church will have achieved, or be very close to, union with most Eastern Orthodox and with about half of the Anglicans and Lutherans.

Birthrates all over the world will have fallen through the floor and still falling (despite most governments trying to stop it by introducing bans on abortion and on the promotion of homosexuality, heavy taxes on contraceptives and generous incentives to marry young and have children) and the UN will hold a conference on the depopulation crisis, urging the world’s governments to ban contraceptives. The Church will be acclaimed by non-Catholics as the prophetic voice which if listened to could have averted this crisis which threatens to see the human race die out.

The Pope will call a Council so the Church can change its liturgies and practices to reflect the vastly different ethnic makeup and previous religious traditions of the new members of the Church. Traditionalists will be up in arms, saying “why can’t they just leave things the way they have been since before I was born?” They will start a “Society of St Paul VI” (SSPVI) and threaten to go into schism.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), October 21, 2004.

You forgot to mention that the New York Times with have a season of thunderingly indignant editorials slamming the Catholic Church for "not doing enough" to stop de-population during the 20th century that led to the disatrous economic implosion of the early 21st century as population collapse led to economic stagnation...

In many people's minds the idea will be formed that it was the Catholics who caused the "problem" while the Left and Planned Parenthood will be given a total pass.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

Paul and Steve,

Good answers to anonymous. I especially liked how Paul responded to the question of listening to prayers in heaven

The Church will have achieved, or be very close to, union with most Eastern Orthodox and with about half of the Anglicans and Lutherans.

Steve, this would be fantastic if it does not come at the expense of watered down catholicism. I hope it does not come as a result of capitulating about papal authority and infallibility, priestly celibacy, male priesthood, birth control, mariology, liturgical tradition etc. in order to achieve such a "union."

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), October 22, 2004.

The only way unity can be achieved with churches which have separated themselves from the true Church is for them to return. The Catholic Church is not going to "meet them half way". There is no reason for it to do so.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2004.

You forgot to mention that the New York Times with have a season of thunderingly indignant editorials slamming the Catholic Church for "not doing enough" to stop de-population during the 20th century that led to the disatrous economic implosion of the early 21st century as population collapse led to economic stagnation... In many people's minds the idea will be formed that it was the Catholics who caused the "problem" while the Left and Planned Parenthood will be given a total pass.

Didnt you know... abortion and birth controle dont prevent populations fom growing, and assertign the Dignity of life and condemnign birth controle makes populatiosn fall... well, at leats in Left-o-land...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 22, 2004.

"The Church will have achieved, or be very close to, union with most Eastern Orthodox and with about half of the Anglicans and Lutherans." Steve, this would be fantastic if it does not come at the expense of watered down catholicism.

Of course it won't, that's why I say that only MOST of the E.Orth. and only HALF of the Anglicans & Lutherans will be able to bring themselves to agree with us. But we have Our Lord's guarantee that the Catholic Church will survive to the end of time and will never water down its doctrine. Some practices and liturgies will change as they have many times before, but Catholic doctrine will never be watered down. In fact I predict even those who remain protestants in 2050 will staunchly condemn contraception and most will have reassessed their opposition to devotion to the BVM.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), October 22, 2004.

Zarove

Please don't take this the wrong way.

I Respect your Protestant stance. Along with one or more things you said on the other board,

But you are sounding Catholic to me in many ways. And I am a bad Catholic however, even in my position I recognize something Catholic about the way you sound when you post.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I know you are filled with zeal, way more than I wish I had, You are an inspiration.

You are a better Catholic (as a Protestant) than me even when when I finely get it right. This is no BS. I wish I had your spirit. I think its valid.

Catholics---- I really never understood this as being an issue. It never was before I found these boards. We were just kids in the neighborhood. Our parents disagreed. (only a little never enough to make us as kid dislike eachother) We as kids got along fine. Still do 40 years later and I'm glad.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 23, 2004.

Jim,

Funny you should say that about Zarove. I said something similar to him on some thread several months ago and asked him when we were going to make a Catholic out of him. He is more Catholic in spirit, than most Catholics IMO.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), October 23, 2004.

The problems in the Church can be solved to a great extent by returning to the traditions of the past, especially to the Latin Mass.

Priests need to realize and educate their flocks that Holy Mass does not entail opening your mouths, but your hearts. Only when the priests open their hearts to the Truths that no pope had the authority to change the Immemorial Mass canonized by the infallible decree of Trent and codified by Pope St. Pius V, will order be restored to their parishes! Clean things up and cleanse yourselves with the only cleaning agent that gets souls totally cleansed - the Sacramental divinely ordained Traditional Latin Mass!

-- John (Tourist35@msn.com), October 23, 2004.

On the contrary, The Pope and Magisterium have full authority to make any changes in the liturgy of the Church that the Holy Spirit leads them to make. If you can't accept that, then how can you accept the Latin Mass, which was imposed by papal decree, replacing the traditional Greek Mass?

If people can't find Christ in a Mass they can understand and participate in, how will they find Him in a Mass they cannot understand except by trying to interpret from a book, and from which they are largely excluded except as observers?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 23, 2004.

no offence taken. Socially my eiws have evovled to where I now apprciate the difference betwen a harsh action and i justice, and his reflects the Cahtolic veiw. This, as far as social issues, make me seem more catholic.

I once beelived, in my youth, that justic and mcy where equel to allowance, tolerence, and full acceptance. Love emant never rejectign soemone, and mercy meant always lettign them do as they pease. Now Im older, and relaise you can love soemone intensely and reject them. I relaise justice isnt justice if it is nothign but a mean to solve our problems, rather it is to balance debts. I ralise judgement, int eh sence of detemrinign action and speakign agisnt things, isnt wrong.

in shrot, whateve liberal aspec tin me I once carred is dead.

As I studied Scirpture, and saw events, and lead ,y life, I realised that love makes demands, and it isnt in everyoens best interest to do a they pelase. That if I relaly love soemone, I woudlnt just let them do as they pelased, but try to ge them to do what is best for them. Theidea that actiosn ave consequence, and that mroality is not merley makign good choices, and the idea of penance for deeds done, entered my mind. epsecially as I debated abrotion with thos ein favour iof it.

responcibility began to take shape, and I started relaisign my own actiosn had conequences.

This lead me to studyign morality and jsyice mor ein eapth, and since I wa son a Catholic board and rediscoverign m own spirituality, the natural studies took a Catholci bend. espeiclal since Paul M. and Paul H. eluciated moral demands and nessesity well, and I coidl see their responces makign more sence than my former notions.

I shall explain later.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 23, 2004.

I feel that the Church has lost touch with it's people especially in Catholic Schools. Being raised a Catholic and going to Catholic schools from Kindy to year 11 I feel that we learn nothing of the Faith. We don't learn Catholic history we don't learn about great saints, we don't learn about the importance of the Mass and why there are 7 sacraments, we don't learn many many prayers especially the Rosary. When I started taking an interest in my faith very seriously I had to teach myself how to ray the Rosary. I've had to do my own research into the life of Christ and pray that He teaches me what He set out to do.

In 2050 I feel that with the highlight of Religion in Politics, people will be turning away from the Church, however, that doesn't count that there are more and more people taking RCIA classes and just recently at my parish the deacon was ordained a priest early this month! There's still hope, and when those that set out to prove the Catholic church wrong end up converting . BUT, WE as a Catholic community need to be OUT with the people! That's what Christ did. These fundalmentalism has ran unchecked because they are reaching out to people when these people need someone and will grasp straws or ANYTHING to have some help. The Church needs to be out once again in the community to help the poor, to reintroduce RE in Catholic schools and teach the children what it means to be Catholic. I don't know about the Mass going back to being Latin as I am after Vatican II, however, the importance of the Mass needs to be taught. Also bring back the feast days of Saints! Today people have National days for Walking or cure for cancer, not saying these are bad things but it shows that peoples faith lies elsewhere. Let's have the Saints these great leaders and perfect people to inspire the Church and Her people! Let children have heros amoung Saints instead of TV actors!

2050 is very optimistic but it's up the the Pope and the people to start cleaning up the Church and allow people to come back to this faith thats so normal and allow people to experience the great things this faith offers where other Christian sects cannot offer, and that's the Holy Communion and the intersession of Our Lady and the Saints!

-- Kathy (arianrhod83@yahoo.com), October 30, 2004.

16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee [did he say anyone else?]the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. This obviously does not exclude the teachings of the gospel by the other apostles, however this is the only church instituted by Christ himself for the salvation of mankind.

All those who look for salvation no matter what you denomination are, if you love our lord, and folow his wish for you, are bound to the Roman Catholic Churchs teaching on matters of faith, which has stood from that day to this very day. The Church holds the key and there are those who seek to take it away.

There is no "other" church, Christ gave the keys to to her and only her. Look at all the new so called churches in the past centuries they have all fallen and splintered.

This the the one and only church which Christ established, to teach and share in His merits and thus attain life everlasting, moreover it is the only one to be relentlessly attacked. In the beginnings of our faith, Christians were murdered in the Roman arenas for their faith however slowly they were allowed to practice their Faith openly, and to build beautiful and magnificent churches. But in time, many became lax and began to live lives of sin.

In Church history we see this pattern over and over: first, an initial fervor on the part of the majority of the Christians; then, a gradual laxity and eventual falling away of large numbers due to the works of such protestants and others who would fall away from the Church and the word of Christ. Some fell away for silly reasons, some for more dubous reasons.Perhaps in the span of the centuries there were those who created their own version of what the church should look like however the Roman Catholic Church still stands.

As for arguments regarding the Pope,the Pope is simply the literal successor of Peter as bishop of Rome and Supreme Pontiff of the universal Church,the visible Vicar of Christ his Human representative in matters of all christian faith on this earth. Even today many outside churches still look to the Holy Father and his advise in matters of faith.

As we see again, as we have seen in history,the persecution of the Church, is evident to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. The Catholic Church once again is undergoing a terrible persecution, and is undermined, infiltrated, and attacked constantly in Her moral teaching. Her doctrine and Her members, are constantly attacked especially by forces wishing to destroy God’s reign in souls.

This attack on Christ's word and even the Ten Commandments is seen on all fronts especially in secular society.The number of the enemies of the cross of Christ, the Gospel and Gods Commandments has in these past years,increased exceedingly. It is obvious today those who are striving,to destroy the vital energy of the Church, which are in effect trying to overthrow utterly Christ's kingdom itself, by destroying the teachings of the church and also the spirit of our Lord in the hearts of men.

The destruction being wrought in the Church today is in effect a chastisement not upon the church but upon the entire world because the Church,so oppressed internally and externally is under seige, but remember it will not fall. For the gates of hell will not prevail,you have our Lords word on that.

The slow disintergration of the physical church however is clearly seen as a warning. Our Lady, and our Divine Lord Himself has warned time and time again, either their is amendment of life in response to the warning,or chastisement due to a lack of amendment. One would think that man would learn from the mistakes of the past but all too often, that is not the case.

Today God himself is removing his grace and allowing satan to do his work. There will be those who seek or continue to regulate their interior life {the state of activity of a human soul} those who will strive against its inclinations to do wrong, who hear Mass, and recive the sacraments instituted by Christ himself.

Their will be those who will convert and regulate their lives and endeavors to acquire the habit of judging and directing their movements in an things according to the light of the Gospel and quite frankly, simply there will be those who dont, or wont.

It is quite simple. Follow the example of Our Lord and his commands: ‘Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart.’

Certainly the spirit of the Roman Catholic church will not fade away for our Lord told us it will not, so therefore attend Mass and lead a good life. Our Lord instituted the Church and the Mass which is the foundation. He gave the command to attend Mass, do this in rememberace of me, it is the heart of our Faith and through it,we recive the unique graces available to us in Holy Communion. Remember, when we die, God is not just going to ask us if we went to mass everyday to recive his grace, but he also expects you to individually be a good christian and follow his lead.

As for the future of the Church as a structure in 2050;

The Holy father and those succeding him are aware of Gods plan and bow to his will. In Pope Paul VI's 1977 Address on the Sixtieth Anniversary of the Fatima Apparitions he included these words:

"The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to its summit. Apostasy, the loss of the faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels within the Church."

As we see even from the highest pinnicales of the church the whole idea of ecumenisim and a new world humanistic religion is coming about with no Christ, in effect Anti-Christ to label the ‘Church of the past’ as being oppressive, authoritarian, full of prejudices, arrogant in claiming to be the sole possessor of truth, and responsible for the divisions of religious bodies throughout the centuries. This would be necessary in order to shame Church leaders into an ‘openness to the human world,’ and to a more flexible human attitude toward all religions and philosophies that dont recognize Christ. It is founded on the cooperation of false religions today who do not nor will not recognize Our lord, or the teachings of the faith of our Lord.

It is, in effect, not so much to destroy the the Church, but rather the True Faith of the people, and even use the structure of the Church, if possible, to destroy what? The Faith in our Lord.

Through the promotion of error everywhere, in all christian denominations there will be those who keep the faith and those who will not. It may be summed up like this When truth is looked upon as error,and error is accepted as truth, that is the time of times, whether it comes tomorrow or in a future time, say by 2050.

Certainly today all is ripe for the enthronement of the man of sin, the Anti-Christ. But remember what is to follow, the return of Christ. Know this, though, Our Lords words, the MASS and true Catholic teaching in matters of faith, which is the CHURCH, has not changed, it cannot change. It doesn't matter if every priest in the world says this is only the new way, or if every single new theologian who calls himself "Catholic" teaches a new way, or if the Pope himself teaches a new way. If Scripture and the Traditions represented, bound in heaven as on earth don't teach what our Lord said and did, moreover commanded, then it is not True Roman Catholic teaching. The pendulem can only swing so far to one side before it returns to the other side. Remember also,you only have one soul to save — or to lose. I will pray for everyone, sinners and from those of all walks of life and religions, that you may all find Our Lord, also for our enemies who seek only to destroy, that you may truly convert.

If you cannot find the Mass near you, meditate on the Sorrowful Mysteries, the life of Christ, make a spiritual Communion if youcannot find the Mass, and know that you are not alone. Christ is with you always even until the end of time, and so are the prayers of true Roman Catholics around the world and in Heaven. Offer up your sufferings "and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in [your] flesh for His body's sake, which is the Church." (Colossians 1:24)

-- Tom (scheinet@aol.com), January 13, 2005.

Excellent post.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 14, 2005.

Bro u dnt knw me

-- mickey thre eyes (jehoah@msn.com), January 19, 2005.

believe in me

-- the truth is outthere (jj@msn.com), January 19, 2005.

A very unfaithful, perverse and prideful post;

''As we see even from the highest pinnicales of the church the whole idea of ecumenisim and a new world humanistic religion is coming about with no Christ, in effect Anti-Christ--'' Total falsehood. '' . . .to label the ‘Church of the past’ as being oppressive, authoritarian, full of prejudices, arrogant in claiming to be the sole possessor of truth,'' Without any basis, absolutely false. ''. . . This would be necessary in order to shame Church leaders into an ‘openness to the human world,’ and to a more flexible human attitude toward all religions and philosophies that dont recognize Christ.If this were true it would be disastrous. It's not true. Anybody who believes it is crazy. ''It is founded on the cooperation of false religions today who do not nor will not recognize Our Lord, or the teachings of the faith of our Lord.''

Believe this rubbish if you will. It's not our Church you're talking about, but a figment of your imagination born of rebellion and insecurity. You've lost faith in the holy Spirit, the Advocate. You despair in Christ's holy promises. By failing in faith you invite the devil to your aid; the main Divider, the Accuser. You restore the devil's overweening Pride.

May God restore His Light unto you, before you fall away from the Catholic faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 19, 2005.

One thing about you Mr. Chavez, you are consistant!

-- John Smith (A@A.com), January 19, 2005.

Consistent.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 19, 2005.

Tom said this:

"This would be necessary in order to shame Church leaders into an ‘openness to the human world,’ and to a more flexible human attitude toward all religions and philosophies that dont recognize Christ."

So Gene says this: "If this were true it would be disastrous."

Well son of a gun if that's exactly what we have right now. But Gene, ever in denial, simply blurts this out:

"It's not true." It's not true it's not true it's not true.

"Anybody who believes it is crazy."

Then I'm crazy then. Of course, Gene, you don't say why it is crazy to make such a statement. You just say it's crazy, and that's it. I could relates mounds of my own in-person experience regarding the truth of this statement, but you wouldn't listen or believe it. I could show you page after page after page of how this statement is a true depiction of what's been happening, but you won't look. I could show you the books, and the authors, the missalettes, the articles, the speeches. Stacks of evidence piling up through the roof.

But you'd deny it all.

Believe this rubbish if you will. It's not our Church you're talking about, but a figment of your imagination born of rebellion and insecurity.

It's not the Church of those who truly believe in the Catholic Faith and practice it properly? I'd say you're right. Nothing of the nonsense going on right now. You might say it's in the Church and not of, to invert a description.

"You've lost faith in the holy Spirit, the Advocate. You despair in Christ's holy promises. By failing in faith you invite the devil to your aid; the main Divider, the Accuser. You restore the devil's overweening Pride."

If that's the case, and I agree with this poster, which I do, then why did I say today "Come Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy Faithful..." if I lost faith in the Holy Ghost? By saying this, I invited the Devil to my come to my aid?

Nah. This is just you, Gene, in denial, and making nasty assumptions about other people that aren't afraid to call a spade a spade and retain increase the confidence in God despite it all.

That's all.

"May God restore His Light unto you, before you fall away from the Catholic faith."

Wish this upon your fellow parishoners instead of Tom. It's better spent there than on someone who already has it.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 19, 2005.

Dear Emerald:
There's no pressure on you. I expect you to continue on this witch hunt because you never learn from your brethren. Haven't we been down this path already?

''Gene [is?] in denial, making nasty assumptions about people who aren't afraid to call a spade a spade and retain increase confidence in God despite it all.''

People who aren't afraid, Em? Do you think they have to fear the Pontiff? A black helicopter from Hell? You're so happy, digging up spades where there aren't spades, to call a spade? Does it excite you to push the Holy Spirit into your mold; the Conqueror of Modernists? ''People who aren't ''afraid,'' my eye. You and your cohorts don't fear the devil. Why fear me, or our faithful Catholics?

We don't bite. Just accept the truth and there's nothing to fear. Fear him, the evil one. They're salivating at the thought of your demise in hell, Kid.

Tom is full of it, Emerald. But give him credit for solemnity. His robes make him your hero; but not mine.

We follow the Pope and our bishops. They follow the Holy Spirit. Just because you hate Christ's people go on and agree with this poster. He's mistaken; leave him to God. ''Then why did Emerald say today Come Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy Faithful, if he lost faith in the Holy Ghost?''

Ask the Church, not me. You don't count yourself in our midst. You've faith, but misplaced. Not in the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless I pray for you and other malcontents. You have ample time to repent, by the grace of God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 19, 2005.

"I expect you to continue on this witch hunt because you never learn from your brethren."

Basically, what you want me to learn your attitude and to make damaging statements about other people. I don't think that's such a good idea.

"People who aren't afraid, Em? Do you think they have to fear the Pontiff? A black helicopter from Hell? You're so happy, digging up spades where there aren't spades, to call a spade? Does it excite you to push the Holy Spirit into your mold; the Conqueror of Modernists? ''People who aren't ''afraid,'' my eye."

You totally lost me. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. I'm serious. I don't even understand it.

"You and your cohorts don't fear the devil. Why fear me, or our faithful Catholics?"

I don't remember talking about fear either you or the devil. Where are you going with this?

"We don't bite. Just accept the truth and there's nothing to fear. Fear him, the evil one. They're salivating at the thought of your demise in hell, Kid."

Gene. What are you talking about?

"Tom is full of it, Emerald. But give him credit for solemnity. His robes make him your hero; but not mine."

I read what Tom said. I don't think he's full of it.

"We follow the Pope and our bishops."

Who is "we" here? Hey, maybe you do, maybe you don't. I don't know that you do.

"Just because you hate Christ's people go on and agree with this poster."

When I see statements like this, I know. These are very, very revealing statements.

"Nevertheless I pray for you and other malcontents."

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 19, 2005.

Good night, Emerald. Didn't mean to bruise you. NO, Tom can't go further than statements of conventional orthodoxy we already uphold. His malignant ones fall flat. To find that you concurr with him isn't surprising. I can't damn you for it. You're in a type of invincible ignorance; no offense intended.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 19, 2005.

Hi,

In my opinion, formed by conversations with a old Catholic priest, is that the lack of religious vocations is going to be the Church’s next big problem, and that the next pope will have to address this. So, I expect either married priests (woman priests would be far too radical), or a Church with diminished capacity to minister to the needs of her people. I really do not expect a Vatican II style revolution. But if only the conservatives are ordained or promoted, then maybe a reversal of (some?/most? of ) the Vatican II stuff could also be expected.

I feel invited to put in my two cents, and may not monitor this long discussion well.

In any case I wish the Church well.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), January 20, 2005.

Hi, I just wanted to ask you guys something.

What are your opinions, as a Catholic, on Protestants?

Just a curious high schooler.

-- Bob Brayner (ycx87@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.

Bob,

Protestants in general are good people who are earnestly seeking truth and sincerely trying to do the will of God, but who are blocked from full knowledge of the truth and fullness of life in Christ due to the incomplete manmade traditions they follow.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 25, 2005.

Dear Bob:
Some of the most lovely people I've met in my life (going on 68) have been God-fearing Protestants.

Most of them were extremely leery of the Catholic Church. It seems to be a characteristic, even when they're very tolerant folks. I guess it's the way they were raised; to love the Bible and keep Catholics in their place. ''Don't listen to that guy. They worship the Pope, and they bow to idols.''

A terrific man I knew in San Diego; supervisor of a company I did business with, good Bible Christian;

Once covered the subject of Catholicism in just a few short words. He knew I was a faithful Catholic. Yet he didn't even realise how unjust his words sounded to me:

''Heck, Catholics need some Pope to tell them what to think. I can do my thinking without no help.'' --

I didn't return the compliment, Bob. What for? He was a man older than me, of long experience. About 70 years young, a fine citizen, very prosperous and relatively smart. His mind was made up. He was filled with pride. It's only a humble man who think without prejudice. Or, who has enough courage to ask Catholics for the simple truth.

And a humble Christian can face some hard truths. Have I really tried to understand the Catholic Church? Maybe I'm missing something. A humble Christian might realise, Saying THIS: ''I can do my thinking without any help,'' tells GOD-- ''ONLY what I think is the truth.'' What is God going to think?

When my old friend said that, he assumed the Pope couldn't teach him anything. He didn't care if the Pope serves God or not. --Sure, and he probably still doesn't need any ''Pope to tell him what to think.'' But he's wrong. (Just between you & me.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 25, 2005.

My hope is that by 2050 everybody will learn to shut up and listen to Jesus rather than try to say what they know what He means. Ever notice, the Catholic Church has offered an official interpretation for very few passages of Scripture? There's a reason for that you know; She continues to listen with all openness to His advocate, the Holy Spirit.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.

"My hope is that by 2050 everybody will learn to shut up and listen to Jesus rather than try to say what they know what He means."

Let me see if I have this straight. We should all listen to Jesus, but only in such a way such that, if someone asked us what we thought He said, we shouldn't be able to give an answer?

"Ever notice, the Catholic Church has offered an official interpretation for very few passages of Scripture?"

No, I haven't. I've noticed the exact opposite.

"There's a reason for that you know; She continues to listen with all openness to His advocate, the Holy Spirit."

If She continues to do this, in other words, what She's been doing for 2,000 years, then how come you say the Church has only offered an official interpretation for relatively few passages?

I'd say She has official interpretations for a lot more than just a few. How do I know? Well gee whiz, I've read many of them. From the Church.

All in all, Father Paul, seems to me you'd just want people to believe something new, and that this something new comes from the Holy Spirit. Am I right or what?

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 25, 2005.

"...try to say what they know what He means."

That should be "...try to say that they know what He means."

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.

"I've noticed the exact opposite."

Oh, really? Start listing the many OFFICIAL interpretations She has given and explain why it is an official interpretation.

Her use of Scripture to prove Her Doctrines is not the same as giving an official interpretation; but then again, you so self proclaimed Traditionalists make up your own rules as you go along.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 25, 2005.

We must remember, though: Emerald is himself the exact opposite of a traditional Catholic. It figures he should see everything exactly opposite of what's Catholic. Including ''official''.

The official truth he regrets most is our 2nd Vatican Council. But he believes in official biblical interpretations. He can't name many, but they're there.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 26, 2005.

"Oh, really? Start listing the many OFFICIAL interpretations She has given and explain why it is an official interpretation."

I've got a more efficient idea. I say the Church has many, you say She only has a handful.

So then. List the handful to which you refer.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 26, 2005.

"We must remember, though: Emerald is himself the exact opposite of a traditional Catholic. It figures he should see everything exactly opposite of what's Catholic."

You mean, like this? Look: traditional Catholics are outside the Church. Those who are invincibly ignorant can be in the Church. Catholics who assist at reverent Masses are arrogant, against the Church and dissenters. And so forth.

Sounds more like you.

"The official truth he regrets most is our 2nd Vatican Council. But he believes in official biblical interpretations. He can't name many, but they're there."

I like how he says name them, and all of 10 minutes passes by, which to you is enough proof that, well, I can't name them.

Of course for four years I've been asking you and your comrades what the teachings of Vatican II are, and, you still haven't named them.

Not one.

I'd be happy to start compiling.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 26, 2005.

Dear Emmie:
Try to get a hold of yourself? Look: traditional Catholics are outside the Church. Not ME. Traditional to the core, IN the Church.Those who are invincibly ignorant can be in the Church. It depends on God. Are you disputing that?Catholics who assist at reverent Masses are arrogant, against the Church and dissenters. But I wasn't arrogant-- against the Church-- or dissenting at Holy Mass this Sunday! And the Mass was in fact VERY reverent, Sir!-- (Actually devout and holy.) Emerald; WE are TRADITIONAL! --YES!!!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 26, 2005.

Sure.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 26, 2005.

I have a better idea Emerald, you list some interpretations you think are official, i.e. the Church says this is what the Lord means, not this is an application of what the Lord meant.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 26, 2005.

Good idea, Father Paul.

Every time I make some application of the scriptures, these friends fight back by saying I'm just like the Protestants; all about Sola Scriptura. The difference is, I know it's an application. I try not to claim the Church has to accept it. I'm just offering an insight into that text.

On the other hand; Emerald and Ian appealed to scripture alone, by arguing Saint Dismas was saved outside the New Testament and absolutely couldn't be baptised-- even by Jesus Christ ! ! !

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 26, 2005.

Where will the Catholic church be in 50 years? original question.

As I said on another thread, Cardinal Ratzinger consecrating a bishop who thinks the resurrection was a phony story.

This man will control a seminary or two. What will his priests believe.

What does Ratzinger believe? These men are just the tip of the iceberg.

-- Pete (Chas@charles.com), February 26, 2005.

Worse still, Zangrando, a respected journalist not given to reckless claims, relates that Forte’s 1994 essay Gesu di Nazaret, storia di Dio, Dio della storia (Jesus of Nazareth, history of God, God of history) reveals Forte as nothing less than “the standard- bearer of theories so radical as to the point of putting in doubt even the historicity of the resurrection of Christ. The empty tomb, he argues, is a legend tied into the Jewish-Christian ritual performed at the place of Jesus’ burial. It is a myth inherited by the Christians from Jesus’ early disciples. Therefore, the empty tomb, along with other details surrounding the resurrection, is nothing but a ‘proof’ made up by the community. In other words, Forte is trying to change the resurrection of Christ into a myth, into a kind of fairy tale that cannot be proven.”

Forte’s elevation to bishop was rather mysterious. Zangrando notes that Forte’s name did not appear in any list of possible candidates submitted to the Italian Nunciature, and even his ordinary, Cardinal Michele Giordano, Archbishop of Naples, “was reportedly against that appointment.” But, “in an apparent attempt at putting to rest a growing controversy” over Forte’s candidacy, he was personally consecrated a bishop by none other than Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger¾the very man Forte will succeed as head of the CDF, according to the rumors. Yes, “our only friend in the Vatican” has struck again. More and more it becomes apparent that this man is perhaps the most industrious ecclesial termite of the post-conciliar epoch, tearing down even as he makes busy with the appearance of building up. The longer Ratzinger “guards” Catholic doctrine, the more porous the barriers that protect it become.

-- Pete (Chas@charles.com), February 26, 2005.

Dear Pete.
What if I tell you you're lying? No one has the slightest reason to believe you, and you cannot document anything you're saying.

I'm not saying it to defend anybody. I don't know the men you're talking about. (Let them defend themselves.) But everyone definitely knows they wouldn't get to first base in Rome, if charges like those were made in public. They'd be denounced by the entire Curia and every bishop in the world immediately. And of course, by the Pope. Every Catholic priest would disown them, if it were true. WHY? Because bad news travels fast.

It's idiots like yourself who give credence to every smear they have passed on to them by the lunatic fringe. It only goes to show your unhealthy state of mind. Catholics have heard of your kind. Your name is Legion.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

Dear Father Paul, you write: "Ever notice, the Catholic Church has offered an official interpretation for very few passages of Scripture? There's a reason for that you know; She continues to listen with all openness to" the "advocate, the Holy Spirit".

As to your first sentence, you are right, if your words are understood correctly. (Perhaps emerald misunderstood the sense you intended.) It is true that, only in the case of very few biblical passages (e.g., the key doctrine in John 6) has the Church said, "Here is what this specific passage means, and one cannot be a Catholic if one interprets it differently."

I'll repeat your second sentence, Father: "There's a reason for that, you know; She continues to listen with all openness to" the "advocate, the Holy Spirit."

As to your second sentence, I probably agree with you, subject to reading a fuller explanation of what you mean. As I have been taught, the "reason" for the "official" and precise, limited "interpretation of very few passages" is the following. The primary author of scripture is the Holy Spirit. As God, he is not limited to giving words and passages only one meaning or "sense." It has been clear, for millenia, that almost all passages of scripture can be understood in two or more senses. (Some very holy people have believed that almost all passages can be understood in at least four senses.) The Church, in her wisdom, allows (even encourages) us to read the texts and discern multiple senses on our own, if we wish to do so, being "open" to the help of the Holy Spirit whom you mentioned in the quoted sentence. The Church has not published a "bible commentary" in which all possible senses of each verse are listed for us. However, she has given us the parameter (limit) for our private interpretation of senses. What is it? We are forbidden to believe that we have discerned a valid "sense" of a text if our interpretation contradicts any doctrine of the Church. (For example, we are forbidden to claim to have discerned that Jesus's "divorce exception" clause may mean that a validly married couple may divorce and remarry if one of them engages in adultery. Such an interpretation would contradict the Church's infallible doctrine forbidding divorce and remarriage.)

-- (My@Opinion.com), February 27, 2005.

I just stated, "As God, the Holy Spirit is not limited to giving words and passages only one meaning or 'sense.'"

Lest I be misunderstood, I should have added, "unless He so limits Himself."

-- (My@Opinion.com), February 27, 2005.

You are correct. True Rome would not tolerate it. True Rome would not have covered up the pedophile scandal either.

Before you accuse me of putting out false rumors, why don't you check on it yourself. You react like Pavlov's dogs. If it is a negative you just defend it out of a conditioned reaction.

-- Pete (Chas@charles.com), February 27, 2005.

"On the other hand; Emerald and Ian appealed to scripture alone, by arguing Saint Dismas was saved outside the New Testament and absolutely couldn't be baptised-- even by Jesus Christ ! ! !"

That's not what was stated.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

"I have a better idea Emerald, you list some interpretations you think are official, i.e. the Church says this is what the Lord means, not this is an application of what the Lord meant."

Council of Trent:

"Furthermore, to check unbridled spirits, it decrees that no one relying on his own judgment shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions, presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation, has held and holds, or even contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, even though such interpretations should never at any time be published. Those who act contrary to this shall be made known by the ordinaries and punished in accordance with the penalties prescribed by the law."

Even the Church doesn't list them. But they're there.

Whip out the Council of Trent and begin reading, and see just how many passages of Scripture have their proper meaning and context laid out in great detail.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

Are you trying to say that this is what it means and it can mean nothing else? Published or not? So what does that prove? If there were a list, even an invisible one, how much of Scripture do you think has been officially interpreted?

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 27, 2005.

Emerald answers the Catholic priest audaciously as ever.

It would never occur to him that during a formation of several years Father Paul may have become acquainted with a few works of the Council of Trent.

Much like our visitor on the other thread who didn't want to shock us; but shared his secret with us: Jesus Christ was a Jew!

Some here make up with chutzpa what they lack in gravitas.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

"Are you trying to say that this is what it means and it can mean nothing else?"

No.

"Published or not?

No.

"So what does that prove? If there were a list, even an invisible one, how much of Scripture do you think has been officially interpreted?"

Lots.

~~~

"Emerald answers the Catholic priest audaciously as ever. It would never occur to him that during a formation of several years Father Paul may have become acquainted with a few works of the Council of Trent."

I know the state of the seminaries and the current state of formation.

"Much like our visitor on the other thread who didn't want to shock us; but shared his secret with us: Jesus Christ was a Jew! Some here make up with chutzpa what they lack in gravitas."

I don't understand this statement. You're going to have to explain it to me, using very, very small words. So that I can understand it.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

''I know the state of the seminaries and the current state of formation.'' --Emerald

You most certainly don't know the state of a single seminary. And it can be inferred from your dumb statement that you doubt if Father Paul knows anything about the Council of Trent.

Addressing a Catholic priest this way, ''Whip out the Council of Trent and begin reading--'' is your typical crude humor; showing how little you care about Father's ordination. To you it's good for nothing; and your own hubris is what always points to the truth.

So you realise, I hope; why I'll stay close in our forum to my dying day; puncturing your ballons indefinitely. You have it coming, BRASSY BOY.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

"You most certainly don't know the state of a single seminary."

That's why I said of seminaries and to the current state of formation.

"And it can be inferred from your dumb statement that you doubt if Father Paul knows anything about the Council of Trent."

It can be inferred that you think he does. Why should we be assuming anything one way or the other? According to your inferences, Pete's an agent of Satan. I don't see it. These things can not be determined or assumed at a whim.

The current state of seminaries, and the current state of formation, is indeed a verifiable, observable catastrophe. It doesn't mean that the Church of Christ has been prevailed against. It's just a statement of fact. It'll get better as soon as we return to traditional belief and practice. Hang in there.

"Addressing a Catholic priest this way, ''Whip out the Council of Trent and begin reading--'' is your typical crude humor; showing how little you care about Father's ordination."

It doesn't address his ordination. Example: you often take issue with, argue with, rebuke, and admonish baptised Catholics in this forum.

Does this, then, mean that you are calling their baptism into question? Of course not.

"So you realise, I hope; why I'll stay close in our forum to my dying day; puncturing your ballons indefinitely. You have it coming, BRASSY BOY."

We should all be thankful for all the challenges we meet up with which are directed against our Catholic Faith. Were it not for opposition, we might grow lazy and forget our end.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

Emerald,

If I handed you the Canadian Electrical Code and told you to start reading it, would you be able to understand it? Likewise with the New Brunswick Labour Code?

Unless you have had training you wouldn't.

Guess what? The same is true about the Official Documents of the Church - unless you are trained, you cannot interpret them.

In case you are wondering why I gave the examples I did, I am also a Journeyman Production Equipment Mechanic (electrical was a major part of it), and past president of a local union.

Now, why don't you pick up a copy of the Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents of Vatican Council II and read them with an open heart? If you do you will not find an issue that is not reconcilable with any pre-conciliar documents.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 27, 2005.

You know that I'm not?

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

The priest whose formation you belittled is directing you to something a little firmer than your hubris, Emsie.

As for your flippant reply to me; this is very good: ''We should all be thankful for all the challenges we meet up with which are directed against our Catholic Faith. Were it not for opposition, we might grow lazy and forget our end.'' --That's why I'm happy to accomodate you when you make pissant attacks online. I haven't been lazy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

"The priest whose formation you belittled is directing you to something a little firmer than your hubris, Emsie."

I know exactly what he's doing.

~~~

"Now, why don't you pick up a copy of the Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents of Vatican Council II and read them with an open heart?"

I have them sitting on my desk here. I have picked them up. I have read them.

Let me press you a bit on how this open heart operation works though, if I may.

Are you asking me to indulge myself in the private interpretation of these documents, which I have sitting here on my desk, right now?

Or, do I require your assistance in interpreting them?

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 27, 2005.

If you think that you see something TAUGHT in the documents of Vatican II that contradicts anything previously TAUGHT by the Catholic Church, then you most definitely "require" "assistance in interpreting" the documents of Vatican II.

-- (My@Opinion.com), February 28, 2005.

I taught I saw a interpretat.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 28, 2005.

The problem is in the ambiguity, at least chiefly. You can walk up to those texts and extract a traditional meaning in many cases, or on the other hand, you can take that same section of text and you can invoke the Spirit of Vatican II so to speak, and make them out to support the specific heterodoxy one wants them to support.

This isn't some stupid, unsupportable claim. I can show exactly how it works, and how it's actually being used by other people. It's very simple. Once it's laid out, it's irrefutable.

And no, saying the above does not call into question papal infallibility, or argue for a failing of the promise of Christ regarding the prevailing of His Church, or foster doubt in the Holy Ghost. There's nothing to fear in examining these things and coming to understand proper the nature of doctrine, theology, infallibility, the magisterium, the Church, and salvation. If they are properly understood, people can work more quickly and effectively to come to the assistance of Holy Mother Church, each in their own small way. But denial can't possibly help.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 28, 2005.

To read them, with an open heart means to allow the texts to speak to you, let them reveal their truths, rather than you giving them your twist and claiming they contradict Church Teaching.

Read them the same way you would Scripture, it too is full of apparent contradiction.

The documents of Vatican II, like any other Church document, are not inspired in the same way as Scripture, but if we believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit speaks through the Church, then let the Holy Spirit speak to you through these documents. As we have already established, there is no new Revelation, the Deposit is sealed, but that does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not continue to speak to help us understand what has been Spoken and Written in the past.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 28, 2005.

The problem is in the ambiguity, at least chiefly. You can walk up to those texts and extract a traditional meaning in many cases, or on the other hand, you can take that same section of text and you can invoke the Spirit of Vatican II so to speak, and make them out to support the specific heterodoxy one wants them to support

I find no "ambiguity" whatsoever. Just as does the pope, I read the Vatican II texts as a faithful Catholic, in light of over 1900 years of Tradition, and everything comes out just fine. I don't have to "walk up" to the texts, and I don't have to "extract" a meaning. It's just there. Those who read the texts outside the light of the Church's history mess up, and we must ignore their errors.

Your comment is mere fluff. It holds no water, since it could have been applied to the texts of the Bible in any century, or to the texts of Trent by confused 16th-century people who distrusted those texts. You are just a modern-day reincarnation of those anti- Trenters. The Church will always be annoyed by such well-meaning but counter-productive gnats as yourself.

-- (My@Opinion.com), March 01, 2005.

"To read them, with an open heart means to allow the texts to speak to you, let them reveal their truths, rather than you giving them your twist and claiming they contradict Church Teaching."

In other words, to apply to them the very activity that we are told by the same people not to engage in with the older, clearly stated, dogmatic texts of Church. That activity being labelled private, or personal, interpretation.

Therein lies the fundamental absurdity: we have the admonition laid out to us, but only applied selectively. Selectively, as in this manner: "Listen to us. Do not privately interpret older texts. Feel free, however, to privately interpret the new texts." Because you say:

"Read them the same way you would Scripture, it too is full of apparent contradiction."

The Church, when it declares and defines, has done exactly that: declared, and defined. It has not sought to promote confusion. It has sought to eradicate it. The Church's text and Sacred Scripture are not synonymous, and cannot be likened in this manner, as you indicate below:

"The documents of Vatican II, like any other Church document, are not inspired in the same way as Scripture..."

But then you say:

"...but if we believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit speaks through the Church, then let the Holy Spirit speak to you through these documents."

Does not follow. You need to define "guides" and "speaks" and say how the "through" part works.

"As we have already established, there is no new Revelation, the Deposit is sealed, but that does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not continue to speak to help us understand what has been Spoken and Written in the past."

It is in how you believe that the Holy Ghost does this that is the point of disagreement.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), March 01, 2005.

"Your comment is mere fluff. It holds no water..."

Bah humbug. Gotta work; when I get home, I'll show you.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), March 01, 2005.

Emeraldo:
These last two posts deal expertly with your every objection. As usual, whenever you're confronted squarely, it only makes yu more adamant.

I note how you side-step the truths in each post; to quibble about what's shallowest: ''the fluff'' --or, ''labelled private, or personal,'' THE TRUTHS: ''texts --speak to you, let them reveal their truths, rather than you giving them your twist and claiming they contradict Church Teaching.'' Hard truth!

''Read-- the same way you would Scripture, it too is full of apparent contradiction.'' ---------Emerald; pay attention to these words. A Catholic priest speaks, and one of your other brethren. Don't continue ever trite and contumacious.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.

"These last two posts deal expertly with your every objection."

Just because you happen to agree with them, they are expert, Gene. That seems to be the only measure from your perspective.

"As usual, whenever you're confronted squarely, it only makes yu more adamant."

Confront me; I'll respond. Simple. If you or anyone can convince me, more power to you. That being said, I'm not convinced.

"I note how you side-step the truths in each post; to quibble about what's shallowest: ''the fluff'' --or, ''labelled private, or personal,'' THE TRUTHS: ''texts --speak to you, let them reveal their truths, rather than you giving them your twist and claiming they contradict Church Teaching.'' Hard truth!"

Whatever you say Gene. I deny that I sidestepped anything.

"''Read-- the same way you would Scripture, it too is full of apparent contradiction.'' ---------Emerald; pay attention to these words. A Catholic priest speaks, and one of your other brethren. Don't continue ever trite and contumacious."

No.

I'll post up soon.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), March 01, 2005.

But you even side-step me. Just saying on the contrary to what you find here isn't dealing honestly with it.

No matter how unpleasant some of my posts may appear on the surface, I have never invented what I say about or against you in our forum. It's always an honest and sincere observation. Here you are; in reply, That [they are in agreement with me] ''seems to be the only measure from your perspective.'' I stressed the matter of ignoring even what a Catholic priest says, and a brother who cares about you-- Just for you to say ''they agree with you; so what?''

Is this all? No one is up to your level in this place, that you should give him importance? Come off this arrogance, please!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.

Emmie,
I also notice you side-stepped Joe's last questions made Feb 28th on the Sungenis thread. Just forgot about them, I guess?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.

I didn't sidestep anything, Gene. In fact, here's a new link for the discussion.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), March 01, 2005.