One from the past I never got an answer to or I missed your answer, how do you know Raphael or Gabrael were archangels? There's only one way to know this and it ain't in my Bible, nor yours.

Curious, Jamey

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), June 06, 1999

Answers

I may not have answered it if someone else did. There are two main points of doctrine about Angels 1. That they exist. 2. That they are pure Spirits.

Gabriel is sometimes called simply "The Angel Gabriel" as is Raphel. The choirs of Angels are simply from Catholic tradition and is not part of Catholic Doctrine.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

what is the difference between an angel and an archangel? besides Michael, Raphael and Gabriel does the bible give the names of other angels? why only these three?

hungry for learning.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999.

OHH! after my previous posting i found this in Col 1,16:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be Thrones, or dominions , or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

what is Paul talking about?

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999.

My wording may have been a bit misleading, The Scriptures do list the Choirs or levels of Angels, but Michael is the only one that is refered to as an Archangel in Scripture.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

So,

How can you say the others are archangels if Michael is the only one reference as such? There's only one reference I know of and I've been told that catholics deny it's authenticity.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), June 07, 1999.

Yes it's Jude 1:9. It may be that since Michael the Archangel is named that at least the other two that are named are also Archangels. I do not know why sometimes they are refered to as Angels and sometimes as Archangels outside of Scripture.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Br Rich,

The reference is the Book of Enoch. I've been told by several "catholics" that this Book was left from the canon because it was not believed to have been "inspired" or that it can't be proven because it's so old no "originals" can be found as to who actually wrote it. I been told by several that there are seven archangels, yet only three angels are even given names in the Bible as pointed out. And, two of these are never called "archangels" anywhere in the Bible itself as "canonized," only assumed to be.

The Book of Enoch is the only place in which all seven are listed as "head" angels and each name is given for these, including Raphael and Gabriel - that I have found. I just find it intersting that many accept teaching of the "church" in some matters and not know where they at least seem to come from. A side note, many more angels names are given too.

The "catholics" banned this Book until some guy found three copies in the 1700's in an Ethiopian church and then it was also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. But, a person reallt has to dig to find this it's so well buried in "archives." The rest were burned.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), June 08, 1999.

Jamey - It's true that the term "archangel" is rarely used in Scripture (1Thess 4:16, Jude 9). The Scriptures never explicitly say that there is only ONE archangel nor that there is MORE for that matter. However, Scriputer does refer to Michael as more than just an archangel. Daniel while having a vision of the future calls Michael the archangel a "prince" (10:21). Even more interesting is that he also calls Michael "ONE of the chief princes" (10:13) implying that Michael is only one of many princes in the angelic realm. What's more, the book of Tobit gives even more details. Rafael the angel of God (Tobit 12:6), says "I am Raphael, ONE of the SEVEN holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One" (Tobit 12:15). This is further confirmed in the Book of Revelation. It speaks of the seven spirits before the throne of God (4:5; 5:6-8).

Satan also has been thought by some to have been an archangel in heaven. Indeed, the great angel that fell from heaven, the old serpent called the devil and adversary (Rev 12:9) was himself called a prince in regards to other spirits (Matt 9:34, 12:24; Eph 2:2).

Catholic Tradition does indeed verify what Scriptures teaches implicitly on this matter. There is more than just one archangel.

In regards to the mentioning of other angels in Scripture, there is more mentioned than just Gabriel (Dan 8:16; 9:21; Luke 1:19,26), Michael (Dan 10:13,21, 12:1, Jude 9, Rev 12:7) and Raphael (Tobit 12:15). Remember that the word for "angel" in Hebrew and Greek means "messenger". Scriptures do name and speak of both good and bad messengers or angels. For example some of spirit creatures named are Lilith (Isa 34:14 [the Hebrew literally says "lilith" where various translations have "night creature", "screech owl", etc. from Jewish tradition an evil demon and first wife of Adam])and Abaddon, also Apollyon (Rev 9:11 [angel of the Abyss]). The name "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 refers primarily to a king of Babylon but some theologians believe it applies apply to the devil called "the Satan" in the Hebrew Scriptures (1Ch 21:1; Job 1:6-9; 2:1-7; Zech 3:1-2). In the Greek Scriptures his titles and names are numerous (see Rev 12:9; Matt 4:1-11; 6:24; Luke 8:12; 11:18-19; Mark 3:22; John 8:44; 13:2; 1Peter 5:8; and 2Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2; Rev 12:9-10; 20:7-8).

The Scriptures unfortunately do not give us a detailed account of the exact numbers, nature, or names of angels. The Scriptures don't even reveal explicitly why the fallen angels were cast from heaven. Yet we cannot deny that they committed a grave sin against God and deserved to be cast from His presence for all eternity (2Pet 2:4 & Jude 6). (Fortunately for Catholics, God did establish Sacred Tradition which supplements Sacred Scripture for our benefit and learning [2Thess 2:15] by revealing explicitly what Scriptures only teach implicitly.)

-- Jorge (jtrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 19, 1999.

jorge: veo con gusto que cada dma son mas las personas que hablan espaqol y participan en este foro, haciindolo asm mas universal, i.e. catslico.

felicitaciones por tus respuestas!!

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 20, 1999.

Thank you for the warm welcome Enrique. I'm sorry but I did forget to mention that the Scriptures do speak of various [I guess we can call them races or types?] of Angels. "Angel" in general refers to God's spiritual creatures without regards to their type. However, Scripture also specifically speaks of their types as well. For example, prominent in the Hebrew Scriptures is the mentioning of both the cherubim and seraphim. The cherubim are descibed in Genesis 3:24, Ezekial 28:11-19 and 41:18. "Lucifer" is thought to be a cherub as well as an archangel because of what is found in Ezekial 10:15-20. Again this passage is thought to refer to a specific person with an allusion to the Devil. Ezekial refers to the cherub that was in the Garden of Eden but was later found to be unrighteous and would be destroyed by God (Isaiah similar in thought to Isaiah 14:12).

Also mentioned in Scripture are the seraphim. These angels are described in Isaiah 6:1-6.

Other types of angels may be mentioned in Scripture but with no certainty because no apparent descriptions are given for them (Col 1:16, etc).

-- Jorge (JTrujillo@hotmail.com), June 24, 1999.

So, we all need to speak Spanish in order to be "universal" now?

Joking - smile (I have a translator) Jamey

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), June 30, 1999.

jamey, no si hasta donde llegue el conocimiento del espaqol de la persona que te tradujo mi breve mensaje. En ningzn lugar afirmi que es necesario hablar esta bella lengua para ser universal. Foro catslico significa "universal" Cuantos mas idiomas intervengan en il, tanto mas catslico se vuelve, no crees?

Si participas en este foro en espaqol lo prnes al alcance de unos quinientos millones de personas en el mundo!!!! no crees que esto lo hace mas "catslico"?

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 30, 1999.

Let us consider the beginning.

Imagine endless empty space that goes on into infinity non-existence no awareness EVIL.

If we consider the old saying life finds away. GOD came into being by his own will to be, the awareness. Born out of the non-existence the EVIL. Imagine an awareness hovering in endless space or Darkness as HE would see it. After a time his thoughts become collective and he begins to think. He is aware of himself and begins to wonder if there were another. After searching for countless billions of years, the loneliness consumes him into obsession with finding another. But there is no other but him. He splits into two separate entities (schizoid only for real) that are equal and opposite in nature. Light - that which creates (Life - the future). Darkness (SHE : Spirit that inhabits the Darkness- The past) - Destroys makes desolate. Each has the same goal to end the loneliness only they have diametrically opposite positions on how to go about it. Chaos vs. Order, Light vs. Darkness, Life vs. Death, Existence vs. non-existence or Good vs. Evil. GOD is the awareness of being before the Darkness. We stand between the Darkness and the Light. Our true purpose is to Be. For that is the will of GOD - to be because HE is. Ja' El they said. When GOD comes again if he comes into Darkness the Earth will be cleansed with the fire of GOD (His true form). If GOD comes into the Light he will make the Earth a new with the Tree and the River of Life. All things are possible if we believe. The power of the Holy Spirit is promised to us by Jesus Christ.

That is why no one has seen GOD because he became separate from himself. The two have to be united into their new form. They want to come and live us, their children and the Angles of Light and Darkness. We are the key to setting them Free from the loneliness forever. Revelation chap 17 Behold the Beast that was (EVIL or non-existence reined in the beginning there was no awareness) and is not (Evil- the tendency towards non-existence cannot exist in pure form) and yet is (If we lose our sense of awareness the EVIL will return and nothing will exist)

The River of Life is man's final salvation. The fruit of Tree of Life is for the Fallen Angles Consummation, Turn from Darkness back to the awareness of GOD. The Leaves are for the Healing of the Nations. The sword of Power blocks our way to it and blinds us from The one who was (The True GOD, the past) The one who is (Man the children of GOD, the present) The one who will be (Christ - the son of man, the future). We will become like the others and they will become like us. The evolution.

The way is through Awareness - GOD's will to be. Understanding is Knowing the Truth Understanding is Accepting the Truth The Truth leads to Understanding which leads to Awareness which strengthens our will to Be. The Truth is put before us but, they do everything they can to keep us from Understanding it.

We have to show them that we are not children anymore. That we have learned to Understand the Truth. And the Truth shall set us all Free. They are counting on us and we can't let them down. But it is ultimately up to them to change - Free will.

Mystery? Who are you? Man who stands between the Darkness and the Light. What do you want? Freedom Why are you here? To bring order to chaos. Where are you going? The Future

The End of Time - The New Beginning

-- Darian Borne (shadows@vmbc.net), December 01, 2000.

Friends,

If you wish to converse with Mr. Borne, please go to the thread he started (and to which I responded). It is called, "I'm looking for intelligent opinions not blind lashings Thank you." He posted the same message to start that thread. Please do not respond to him here.

SN

-- (free@long.last), December 02, 2000.

Hello. The other night my boyfriend and I were searching through the bible trying to find a passage or scripture that talked about the different levels of angels. We tried but failed. If anyone has time, please send me some references in the bible about this subject. Thanks and have a blessed day.

-- a c j (tinyacj@yahoo.com), June 20, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, "Tiny ACJ".

You must have overlooked Enrique Ortiz's post (above) of June 7, 1999. He mentions Colossians 1:16 -- "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be Thrones or Dominions [also called Dominations] or Principalities or Powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

That verse mentions four groups that have traditionally been understood to be "choirs" of angels.
Add to those four another four, mentioned in various places in the Bible: Cherubim [e.g. Genesis 3:24], Seraphim [e.g., Isaiah 6:2], Angels [e.g., Matthew 18:10 (guardians)], Archangels [e.g., Jude 1:9]. Finally, there is a choir known as Virtues, though I cannot find a scriptural reference for them.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 20, 2003.