I'll be assisting my parents in buying a PC. I will do some photo work for them on it, pass them files, etc. I haven't kept up with all the differences in the latest processors for PCs. There are some great prices on machines using other than the Pentium II and III CPUs. I'll be staying a little behind the price/power curve to work for the best bang for the buck. Are there aspects to the various later cached Celerons, AMD K6s, etc. that would make them less suitable or even unsuitable for use with photo software? The machines I've looked at seem to have plenty of RAM and that's easily remedied to add more, but a CPU that chokes on photos is going to be a problem. Any suggestions or pitfalls to be avoided?

-- Craig Gillette (cgillette@thegrid.net), June 21, 1999

Answers

I am currently running photoshop with a celeron 366 (OC'ed to 550). Despite bad press from the original (cacheless) celeron 300, all celerons, beginning with the 300A pretty much match Photoshop performance Megahertz to Megahertz with the Pentium IIs.

You see, all post C-300 celly's (300A, 333, 366, 400, 433, and 466) all incorporate an ON-DIE full speed 128k cache. Although the PII's incorporate a 512k cache, this cache is not on the die, and runs at half clock speed. The truth that Intel does not want you to know is that the on die advantage of the celeron, and the higher cache size of the PII basically cancel each other out. Don't believe me? Take two equal speed processors (a celeron and a PII) and but them to a test (say...a smart blur on a fairly large image) time the results and be shocked!)

Of course, with 450Mhz PIII's selling for $250 on the open market, I'd say get one of these! When all the SIMD supported applications start emerging, you will be sitting pretty!

On the other hand, if you want the most bang for your buck, I would say try going with one of the dealers selling GUARNTEED Overclocked C300A kits. computernerd.com sells C-300A's guranteed to run a 504Mhz for only $140! They also sell complete systems if you don't want to build on your own.

As far as memory is concerned, I'd say 128MB is a base minimum, with 256MB being a much more comfortable level to start at.

Another factor that will effect performance is your hard drive. I run an ultra2wide Quantum Atlas III, which does me fine, but any of the newer ATA66 drives will do fine as well. (make sure your MB supports ata66!)

As far as video is concerned, I don't believe you have to worry too much since most of image editing is all done in 2D :)

I've never used an AMD machine (eew), so I can't help you there?

Anyone have anything to add?

-- andy (andycure@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

I would suggest that you stop by: http://www.tomshardware.com/ and brush up on the finer points of computerized one-upsmanship... :-)

Seriously, I've always found it a good source for technobabble related PC hardware issues. They do a fair amount of testing and evaluation of processors, video cards, and just about any other hardware related issue. Pick the 'Tom's Guides' button on the sidebar menu and you're on your way. My guess is that the main issues you'll want to brush up on are Video card speeds(? this may be a non-issue as I've been out of the loop since last spring when I shopped for upgrades), processor speeds(think cached celeron or maybe a fast K6?), importance of a cache(?) and that a motherboard with a higher bus speed usually means a faster system than one with a lower bus speed and a higher clock multiplier. If that throws you, read the overclocking section and be realistic if you choose to play. :-) You might also consider buying something newer and gifting them with your already "proven" system. The AMD K7's look to be real PIII killers FPU-wise and all. New territory for AMD to be King of the Number Crunching Hill. That faster FPU performance generally directly translates into speedier image manipulation because of the matrix math that most image manipulations use. Chances are if the system you spec is fast at 2D video games it will do well with image manipulation. 3D video game benchmark performance isn't a bad gauge either, but more dependant on 3D video card processor performance and associated bus topologies and memory structures. (Whoops, that uses up my supply of $10 words for the week.)

I'm running an older AMD K6(hey quit snickering, it only cost $85 new.) designed for 233Mhz, overclocked to ~266Mhz on a 75Mhz(it's not as fond of 83Mhz, drat! -Yes, I occasionally say "drat", so what?) bus w/ 3.5 multiplier and am quite happy with it for my digital photo manipulation tasks. A typical tweak of brightness, contrast, color, hue & saturation takes only a couple of seconds to process for a 1280x1024 image. My old system may be underpowered by this year's standards, but it runs 24/7 (literally) and limps along very nicely thank you. :-) I guess my point is that a machine for Mom & Pop that's only used for browsing and other "light" work really doesn't have to be a Cray II with a cooling system modeled after human blood plasma circulation to perform adequately. I'll admit to a BIG heatsink and a decent fan though. :-)

Definitely read the "Performance" section under Tom's Guides! The site really isn't that technical, but a working knowledge of "techspeak" doesn't cause anyone great pain unless they're insufferably computerphobic to begin with [you Mac people know who you are... :-) Kidding, honest. ;-)]

Good luck.

-- Gerald M. Payne (gmp@francorp.francomm.com), June 22, 1999.

Hey, hey...

I wasn't trying to "one-up" anyone...I was merely relying MY experiences with throwing together a decent (inexpensive) image manipulation machine. I too am looking forward to the K7 (The first AMD chip that shows true promise) and will jump ship if and when the darn thing is ever released! ;)

and as far as tom's hardware is concerned...heh..I would go into that, but it's past my bedtime.

Andy

-- andy (andycure@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

Ha, Ha! Hey, I wasn't picking on you Andy[guilty conscience? Never be guilty, everything in excess! :-) ], I was picking on the focus of the overclocking/performance community that drools over Tom's site. I hadn't even read your reply when I typed those words, as you hadn't posted it until I was almost done with my reply. I like a good hack or a even a cheap overclock, but some guys won't be satisfied until they start fluid cooling dies with micro capillaries. Damn, there goes another good idea... :-) Personally, I'm gonna save my pennies and wait until the big refrigeration names like Frigidaire, GE, and Gibson start making combination processor coolers/freezer storage units before I consider any more serious overclocking... BWAA, HA, HA [Wee Hours of the Night Evil Scientist's Clipped Laughter fading into a slightly strained and cracked resonant silence -we really need to better integrate sound capabilities into Internet forums like this. :-) If you laughed, you're up too late...]

I like the sound of your machine, I was considering upgrading again last summer/early fall with a very similar bent in mind (O/C'd CeleryStick, er...), but frankly, I hadn't really strained the K6, yet. For me game playing doesn't count as processor stress... Well, maybe sometimes. :-)

The K7 looks very interesting, I enjoy rooting for the underdog once in a while. It'll be tough to adjust to the idea of rooting for Intel, though. :-) I was a loyal Intel buyer, but the K6 was a good deal for the price and has performed very well for me.

Tom's is an issue in itself isn't it? :-) But, despite the occasional underground euro-snobbery performed in the name of educating poor witless Americans in the finer points of the depths of our lack of culture and the impossibility of our political system there are some bits of useful performance knowledge to be gleaned by it's perusal.

-- Gerald M. Payne (gmp@francorp.francomm.com), June 22, 1999.

I would say for photo image editing the main thing to stay away from is the Cyrix processors. They rate there chips different. For instance the Cyrix MII PR300 has the performance of a 300MHz Celeron 300MHz even though the MII PR300 is only running at 233MHz. The Cyrix weakness is the math copressor. It is not as power full as Intel's or AMD's and since it is only running at 233 MHz it won't even keep up with a Intel 233MHz MMX processor for math intesive applications like image editing. I am currently running a Intel 233MMX w/192Meg of RAM, 66MHZ bus speed, and Ultra DMA33 hard drive. Is it state of the art? No, but it doesn't leave me waiting much either, so don't think you need a 500MHz Pentium III to get the job done. Save you money on clock speed and spend it on RAM and a fast hard drive. Also make sure your video card has adquite memory. Many of the new machines using AGP video cards can use system memory for video memory. This is a bad use of resourses. I would say minimum of 8 MEG of dedicated fast video RAM. What good is a 500 MHz processor if it has to wait in line for video card to release the system RAM back to it. Also remember 3 letters "USB". I switched my Epson Photo 750 printer over to it and the print spooling time almost went away. It was a very pleasent suprise!

-- Bob G. (rgreg88721@hotmail.com), June 22, 1999.

Craig,you do not have to have the latest CPU to do what you want to do. I would like to stick with Intel, for one reason (it may not apply to you), some software companies require Intel CPU (in my experirnce it has been more of European software, and tech. support always asks if you have Intel CPU based machine, if not, good luck to you, they blame the problem on your machine). I design and build my own PCs (including the motherboard), I have a Intel Pentium II-450 based PC at home and I am using a Pentium 233MMX with 128MB ( I built this one many years ago) at work (both PCs have high quality & fast graphics cards & fast memory modules) I find these machines perform fairly close for digital photo viewing, touch-up, and manipulating. I do recommend to go for the best bang for the buck, you don't have to have the fastet CPU. I also agree with Bob in regard to USB, you do want to have two USB ports (standard) with your new PC, 128MB memory (minimum), AGP graphics card with minimum of 16MB of memory (ATI, & Diamond have some with 32MB). Good Luck.

-- Fred (tabarrok@frontiernet.net), June 22, 1999.

If you've got the money buy a G3 Mac. It's fast, it's pretty and it's not a WinTel machine. It will run all the apps (and a few more) that a run of the mill PC will. You will also be easier to find iamge processoring shops to convert your digital masterpiece into an actual photo (they all run Mac's).

-- Iain Brown (iandcbhome@earthlink.net), June 24, 1999.

Thanks for the responses! I knew I'd get a lot of good suggestions. Although I'd like to pass off my "reliable and proven" current equipment, my folks are savvy enough to see through that!! (BTW, it's a Pentium 200 mmx so while it's well in need of replacement for my uses, it would suit their needs well.) They are are still looking at doing it safe and conservative, no overclocking, no "Silicon Valley Boulevard" (you Los Angeles area types will know what I mean) garage specials, etc. They are looking to go with Gateway for reputation, local store availability, recommendations from contemporaries, no sense of adventure, grew up in the depression, etc. Gateway is I believe all Intel, my big concern was with the Celerons vs the Pentiums. I may try to get them to go Dell, if nothing else to avoid the tax bump. Buying local, they'll pay as much in taxes as my system is worth! Part of their concern is that while I've never had trouble with my local clone (even though the source is long gone), my brother's clone from a reasonably successful local firm has been a constant problem.

-- Craig Gillette (cgillette@thegrid.net), June 24, 1999.

My comment concerning playing it safe is that while the "full-service" manufacturers(see the last George Carlin HBO special for an intended double meaning for that one. :-)) typically do a good job building systems for people who'll never open the case, they do slip up. Sometimes spectacularly. I have a friend that oversees PC system trouble-shooting and building for a State University who has shared his displeasure with me on several occasions at the way the "big boys" screwed up and then instead of apologizing and making it right tried to "service" the account further... If they can't get it right for a guy buying 50 or 100 PC's ata time, what are the odds that a lemon goes to an individual that has far less "juice"? (Please excuse that terrible pun. It was unintentional.)

I hate to say it, but the PR of the big companies is not equivalent to the financial survival motivated dedication shown by a good local shop, IMHO. Sure little guys make mistakes too, but most can't AFFORD to have dissatisfied customers, the "big guys" could typically care less in terms of numbers and geographic separation between complaintants. Perhaps the best approach is to find a local shop you can trust that also takes plastic. Between a good extended warrantee and a credit card company on your side (one who may even be able to help after the initial transaction is made since the vendor stil has a merchant's account with them) you might do well.

All that said and done, that new 3 year upgrade policy offered by one of the "big guys" seems to appeal to a lot of people, but it also seems to incur a lot of financing charges.

Good Luck, any way you go.

-- Gerald M. Payne (gmp@francorp.francomm.com), June 24, 1999.

My guess is the folks will want to play it "safer" than I would and that means sticking to an apparently solid firm. (You know, like Zeos and Northgate!) Yes, the big guys can screw up but there is apt to be at least some back-up and resources available to solve the problem. The folks don't feel like taking much risk and I don't have the time available or the resources to run interference or play Maytag man if there are problems. Unfortunately, the survival instinct in most small local shops in the SoCal area seems to be limited to the workers watching to make sure their paychecks don't bounce, the commercial competition is cut-throat, the margins are absolutely ridiculous, and the usual evolutionary processes of good reputation/bad reputation takes second place to make a profit while you can!! Here today, gone tomorrow seems to be the rule, not the exception for many of the local shops. The good guys try to hang in while the jerks try to make a quick killing and run with the loot. And that hurts all of the small computer businesses. For that matter, even the some of the big players (Compucity) couldn't cut it in the L.A. area. My wife and I are fairly coherent at techno- babble. She has an MIS degree and gets enough computer trouble at work! Until I received the peace dividend via lay-off, I was a "Configuration Management Engineer" working on all sorts of systems, hardware and software on the B-2 Bomber program (OK, I was an International Relations major) and am pretty comfortable with PCs and their innards. At least I'm not afraid to open them up, add boards, etc. With two kids in school and sports, I don't have the excess free time (or money) to really become a hacker or hardware freak. On the other hand, I've been a nerd for years. Right now, because I'm going back to school for my teaching credential and am working as a substitute teacher part-time, I can't indulge myself in a new system. (Which is why I don't watch the the leading edge of the personal computing power curve too closely. Bigger, faster, better, it's a guy thing but the purse strings pretty tight!)

-- Craig Gillette (cgillette@thegrid.net), June 24, 1999.