Just asking, because it seems like every female person I know is on one, except for a few who flaunt their good self images by eating Kentucky Fried Chicken in front of the rest of us.

Just a little poll.

Have you ever actually lost weight on a diet? Because I haven't. Then again, I've never been on a diet for longer than three days before, because I have no willpower. This time I'm almost at three weeks, and I think I liked it better when I had no willpower.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Answers

You know, it's not just the female people who go on diets... But nobody seems to respect a guy on a diet. The world apparently thinks that men burn it off faster than women, or don't get hungry. So I never tell people IRL when I'm on a diet.

I did Slim-Fast for a week, and then I figured I'd better start eating something for lunch or I'd eventually slip and eat the cat, or something. Right now, I'm doing well, but it's only been two and a half weeks.

The best diet I ever went on was right after high school, when I'd ballooned up over 50 lbs. higher than my normal weight. I went to Florida for a while and just stopped eating.

The second-best diet was right after I went into college, and I dropped even MORE weight when I got mono and didn't know it.

Man, what I wouldn't give for a case of mono right now.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

No, I am not on a diet, and I am seriously fat according to those stupid insurance charts, and I just don't *care* enough to starve myself over it.

I used to be a size 4, back when I was in my twenties, and now I am a size 18, and I just don't *care* enough to give up eating three normal meals a day, not as long as I can find enough size 18 clothes, which I can.

Yes, I have lost lots of weight on diets (the last time I really did one was about six years ago). The reason they don't work is that virtually no one can stay on such low-cal or lowfat deprivation *forever*, and so sooner or later they go off.

Then they usually gain back all the weight they lost plus some, and so they are worse off than when they started the damn diet.

I do walk a lot, and I do mostly eat healthy foods, and if I didn't I would probably weigh 300 pounds by now and be way bigger than a size 18.

Being fat isn't that horrible in itself - the only really annoying thing about it is the way ignorant people moralize about it and act as if they are superior to people who are larger than they are. Being discriminated against because of one's size sucks, just as it sucks to be discriminated against for other superficial reasons.

And I don't think the answer to that kind of sucky behavior is for everyone (especially women) to try to get as skinny as possible, no matter what the cost to their physical and/or mental health.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Yeah, I had a variaton on that mono diet; lost 25 pounds in two weeks when I became a diabetic, and I've kept it off! They put me on a diet, mostly to keep track of how much I ate of the various food groups, and to keep my blood sugar level down. Didn't work. Lost another 25 pounds a year later, which took me down to 140, and my wife was about ready to kill my nurse practitioner, so they put me on a diet to gain weight; it doubled my daily food input.

I lost another 5 pounds. I didn't tell my wife.

So they put me on insulin and kept me on the diet, and I gained back the 30 pounds I'd lost since I first became a diabetic.

Now I use a diet plan I found in a book, Scavullo's Women, which was practiced informally by a lot of fashion models: work like a horse and eat like a pig. I'm in the best shape I've ever been in, not counting that incurably fatal disease thing.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Beth -- I'm 5'8" and I weigh 220 pounds. I packed on weight during my sophomore year of college because of a thyroid condition and hit 190 lbs. The condition was diagnosed and I started taking medication. While I was in Europe on Junior Year Abroad and eating sensibly and walking everywhere, I dropped down to 165 and was well on my way back to a healthy weight range/body shape.

Then my BF of 5 years cheated on me and dumped me. Depression hit big time and exacerbated the thyroid condition again.

During my senior year of college, I regained all the weight I'd lost and packed on another 30 to 40 pounds on top of that.

I'm fat. I don't look _huge_ but I've definitely got the whole "chunky girl" phenomenon going on. The only reason I don't look as huge is because I still have a waist, unlike many of my friends who are large who just turned into apples. I've still got a "healthy pear shape" but the fact remains that I'm fat.

I recently discovered, while reading up at http://phys.com and various other resources listed there(Strong Women Stay Slim and Outsmarting the Female Fat Cell) that part of my problem is actually that I don't eat _enough_ and that I eat dinner too late at night. Furthermore, I commit one of the worst health/weight loss sins: skipping meals.

I also knew before as I know now that I just wasn't getting enough exercise.

According to these sources, women hardly ever do lose weight _for good_ on diets. Diets can actually throw your body into a cycle of constant loss and gain that is very bad for you.

Again, according to these sources, men can lose weight on diets because of the way their metabolisms are set up, but most women's bodies don't operate the same way from a biological standpoint.

Now, I can't attest to any of this yet, because we only started in November and got completely derailed by the flu of death throughout December. (I lost 15 pounds last month because I was sick, not because of any working out or diet changes, but hey, I'll take those "free 15" and keep building down from there. Though weight loss from illness is not the way to go.)

But the general idea is to convert fat to muscle through exercise and to change your eating _patterns_ especially if you already eat healthy meals/foods.

That eating at night thing is supposedly killer Beth, because your body just isn't able to burn efficiently after 5pm or so. So the earlier you eat dinner and the smaller it is, on a regular basis, the better off you are.

Honestly I can say that the few "diets" I've been on never worked for me. Eating nothing but grapefruit and rabbit food just left me hungry and more likely to binge on something later. Thankfully I only did that once.

When I was in Geneva, I ate tons of Swiss chocolate, ice cream, pudding, cheese, pasta, cream sauces, lots of bread and all sorts of things that people think of as "bad" foods. But because I was eating a small breakfast regularly, a nice big lunch (usually a tuna sandwich about the size of a 6 inch sub, with a soda or hot tea and an occasional pastry for dessert) and a small dinner composed primarily of vegetables (I didn't eat much meat the whole time I was there because it's outrageously expensive) and grains, I still lost weight.

I also walked _everywhere_ and drank tons and tons of mineral water. I'd hardly call that going on a diet, but the way I ate and the patterns of my day were very different from what they were in the States.

To boot a lot of food in Europe just doesn't have half as many additives, sugars and other junk that gets put into food in the USA.

Other than the depression I felt at the end of the year, during my entire stay there I felt healthy, strong and on top of the world.

I want to feel that way again, but I really don't think that dieting and starving myself are the way to get there.

Instead I'm trying to increase my exercise and the volume of water I drink every day, as well as pushing my dinner hour up to an earlier time and decreasing the size of that meal as much as possible. I still go out with friends for a later night meal from time to time, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

The other thing that a lot of books talk about is that a lot of women have unrealistic expectations about the amount of time it takes to lose weight.

If you're as heavy as I am, you should expect the loss to take up to a year, or longer.

6-9 months is the time span that is suggested as a reasonable expectation for smaller amounts of weight.

So, yeah I'm fat and no I'm not happy about being this unhealthy because I'd rather be strong, flexible and a bit athletic than tubby and sluggish. But at the same time, I know I'd be equally unhappy starving myself.

According to everything I've read, diets are not the way to go to lose weight.

My suggestion: forget about dieting, see a nutritionist to devise a sensible plan that you can work into your lifestyle, but that doesn't leave you hungry and crying for food.

Hrm -- I hope this doesn't sound too preachy, it's just that the howle weight loss/body image/starvation/diets/food thing pushes a lot of my buttons.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I've lost 50 pounds on a low-carb diet, I lost that in 6 months and have kept it off over 8 months at maintenance levels. I'm about to start the second push to drop another 35-40, if I can stop traveling so much for work, I expect that should take me 4 months to do.

My blood sugar fluctuates enough that I probably ought to be tested for hypoglycemia. I am very, very happy on the diet, I'm never hungry, and I don't get weak or faint-y or shaky or turn into Evil Bitchbeast like I used to. Some people aren't programmed for a massive American intake of processed white sugar and flour (I think that's actually how the ingredients are listed on Twinkies, "massive American..."), and I'm one of those people.

SlimFast, by the way, is sugar, caffeine, carbohydrates, and fiber. It's the equivalent of drinking a big, hideously sweet cup of coffee with metamucil and a vitamin in order to make it another 4 hours, when your blood sugar will crash again and you'll need another one, or more likely you'll go for that pizza or Ben & Jerry's or whatever because you can't stand it for one more minute.

For people who are hesitant about going all-out low-carb, I suggest cutting out all sugar and white flour for two weeks and see if that makes a difference. For most people, getting rid of those useless fillers will stop the crashing, which stops the bingeing, which should, with a little exercise and plenty of water, start showing results pretty quickly.

(That also really means you can't live a potato-based lifestyle either, but people try to hurt me when I say that, so...you'll have to decide for yourself on that.)

My kidneys are fine, too. My blood pressure's better than it has been in years. My body fat is probably lower than it was during the high school bulimia years.

To give an idea of how much weight I lost, I went from women's size 24 to 14 in that six months. I wore a 12 when I was skinny (I'm 5'10), and I still weigh 40 pounds more than I did then.

And it was not painful at all to lose the weight. Quitting smoking, which I'm doing now, is hideous. *That* has turned me into Evil Bitchbeast again.

*grr*

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

What Judy said. I'm with her. I'm a size 18, and I'm actually healthier than I was when I dieted down to a size 8. I fainted a lot, I was constantly sick -- and ultimately I wasn't any happier with myself. Plus, in order for me to stay that thin, I had to pretty much stop eating. So now I just try to eat sensibly, and I have a treadmill at home so I get some exercise, and beyond that, I'm not going to worry about it.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I'll bet that you get a HUGE number of responses to this topic. I think it's disgusting that we live in a society that places so much emphasis on women's appearances, and particularly their weight. Beginning at a very young age, women feel the need to starve themselves to be accepted, and the sad thing is - we reward them for it. Growing up, almost every other girl I knew had some sort of eating disorder, and as I got older, many of these young women developed serious physical and psychological conditions as a result of their obsession with weight.

And the answer to your question is this - unless you are lucky enough to have been born with a genetic predisposition to thinness, as a woman in our society, on most days, you will find yourself either a) on a diet or b) thinking about how you need to go on a diet or c) defending your right to be overweight to a generally unsympathetic audience.

don't you think that's sad?

And of course, I am not above all this, because as I write this I'm thinking about the weight I gained over the holidays and how I really have to get my ass to the gym before it's too late.

what a crime.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

See, Beth, you just described the way I normally eat -- a moderate breakfast, a good sized lunch, and a dinner composed of mostly vegetables and pasta. Jeremy and I will go for months following that diet. I work out with weights four to five times a week, and I walk every day.

And I gain five pounds a year, like clockwork.

Unlike some of you, I do not have that healthy pear shape. If I gain weight, I'm going to gain it like an apple. I have a serious family history of diabetes and heart disease, and I have no desire to go down that road.

And I know the low-carb diet works for some people, but honestly, it sounds revolting to me. All of the foods I like are high in carbohydrates. I don't particularly like meat or dairy products; I like whole grains, pasta, and vegetables (and, of course, the occasional product ending in "ito," but I'm getting over that). A diet of nothing but grapefruit and V-8 sounds far more appealing to me than the Atkins diet.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I also have a skinny boyfriend who lives on pizza, pastrami sandwiches, and soda. I have always considered eating a social activity, quality time we can spend together. So I end up eating like he does much too often. I do not have the unbelievably fast metabolism that he does, so I have gained weight in the last couple of years. I have now gotten to the point where I know I have to change something in order to stop the continuing weight gain. But I can't do diets. I have no willpower when it comes to food. The compromise I have come to is to eat much healthier lighter foods during the day (mostly fruits and vegetables) and work in some exercise in the evenings, mainly walking. I haven't been doing it long enough to know whether it will work for me yet, but at this point it is the closest to a diet that I am willing to get.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Yep, I'm on a diet. I'd estimate that I've spent about a third of my life on a diet, starting when I was 7 or 8 years old. But I think that those of us who have always struggled with our weight actually have it a little easier than people who start out skinny and then start to gain later in life. For me, analyzing the number of calories and fat grams in whatever meal I'm about to eat is second nature...I honestly can't remember a time in my life when I was able to just eat whatever I wanted.

This is a topic I spend a lot of my time thinking about. For the past four years, I've worked in research labs studying feeding behavior and obesity.

This is a very hot research topic. Obesity is a very serious public health issue in developed countries, especially in the United States. Studies show that even being moderately overweight dramatically increases your chances of developing heart disease, type II diabetes, and other serious illnesses. And for some reason, obesity is on the rise: the percentage of obese Americans DOUBLED between 1980 and 1995!

There are plenty of theories about why we're becoming so fat, but so far, there are no conclusive answers.

On the one hand, the Callista Flockhart body type is not a healthy ideal for most of us...but the Camryn Mannheim body type isn't either.

The typical American lifestyle is just not conducive to maintaining a healthy body weight, and most of us need to make some sacrifices in order to maintain our health: getting regular, vigorous exercise, and eating healthier foods in smaller portions than we would like.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

This is one of those times where I'm glad to be a guy. Okay, don't go all apeshit on me; I'm no misogynist, but I do recognize that standards are different. Unfortunately for women, they are expected to remain slim and trim, etc., while men don't have that expectation. In a way, it'd be nice to have that societal pressure to lose some damn weight.

I'm about 5'7" and around 225#, which seems obnoxiously heavy, yeah? I don't show it /too/ too much (the weight seems to get distributed fairly evenly throughout my body), but I'm sure my wife would appreciate it if I lost some weight (since she sees me naked the most and sees the icky stretch marks, etc.).

Yeah, that's another thing. Stretch marks. For Christ's sake. I didn't even know what they /were/ or what they looked like until I pointed at them one day and was like, "What the hell? Am I sick?" My wife told me what they were, and can I tell you how crushed I was? Ugly ugly. If there's a remedy for it that /doesn't/ involve massive amounts of smelly sticky bedsheet-staining cocoa butter, feel free to shoot it my way.

So anyway, I've got this deal going w/ my wife that if I lose 20# in the next two months (which seems reasonable if I'm disciplined enough to eat right and exercise regularly), then I get to buy a Playstation 2 when it comes out. If I don't, she's got this "no sugar no fermented products no partially hydrogenated anything" diet she had to go on once that I'll have to do for 2 weeks. Pih.

Anyway, enough bitching about my fat ass. :)

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Oh, yeah, you're all talking about the mono diet. Let me tell you about my mono diet. As I was recovering from mono in 1995- 1996, I got a gall bladder infection. Fatty foods caused me intense pain. On the other hand, I'd lost a bunch of weight, so the doctor wanted me to put on some pounds. So I was supposed to gain weight while eating less than ten grams of fat a day. In other words, boring food, and lots of it -- plus I was still far too weak to cook.

I drank a lot of nonfat milk that winter.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

It's so strange how this forum always seems to touch on the issues I'm dealing with right then. Are we all really so similar?

I have a strong aversion to the whole idea of a diet. Cabbage soup, no carbs, only liquids...it all seems ludicrous. I can understand how, for some, it's easier to stick by a strict set of rules and guidelines than to deal with all the subtleties of a lifestyle change. Not me. Besides, a low carb diet sounds like sheer torture to me. Give up bread and pasta? Nooooooo!

Despite my aversion, I can't ignore the fact that I'm overweight. Luckily, I'm also pear-shaped, but I have a family history of high blood pressure and diabetes. These aren't risks I'm willing to take.

Since the new year, I've been eating differently. I don't cut my portions in half, but I do remind myself that it's okay to leave food on the plate. I wait fifteen or twenty minutes before deciding I want seconds. I snack on nori strips and fruit instead of Hostess cupcakes and potato chips. I'm also making time to exercise.

Reading other people's journals helps. When Lisa went to the gym over lunch and I skipped my workout, I feel guilty. When Beth ran a mile with the dog, I figure half an hour of rollerblading won't kill me.

I've also been inspired by a book I worked on a few years ago called The Bodywise Woman by Judy Mahle Lutter and Lynne Jaffee of the Melpomene Institute. It was great at encouraging both a positive self-image and physical activity without creating unrealistic expectations or judging based on appearance. Highly recom

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I believe not being fat is more important for health and fitness than for "superficial" reasons of appearance. Being fat is not just an aesthetic issue, being fat means being prone to diabetes and heart disease and back pain and foot problems and not being able to use your body for fun things like walking and hiking and dancing.

(I know people can be overweight and in good shape simultaneously. I think of Anita Rowland--dancing and hiking and eating--as such a person, though I don't know for sure. There's a difference between A Woman of Substance and A Woman of Obesity.)

(Plus you can be seemingly fit but in poor health--think of David Letterman with his athleticism yet still having an emergency quintuple bypass.)

I also believe that "going on a diet" sets a person up for failure if she has the expectation that once she loses x pounds she can resume her former eating habits. Rethinking your whole lifestyle is what you usually need. Not everyone can live in Europe for a year, sadly, but think how that worked for that Beth--lots of dessert but healthier food overall, and less of that healthier food, and lots of walking.

I was surprised to hear that this Beth (let's keep our Beths straight) had any fitness issues. Walking three to five miles a day seems like all anyone should need to stay fit, especially if she wasn't fat to begin with. Eating cubicle junk food, and stress, and a month of inactivity, though, can get someone's metabolism all out of whack.

The best advice I, who am as fit and ethereal as a tame gazelle (koff koff), can suggest is not to diet as if it's deprivation. Can you indulge yourself otherwise and begin to think of food as sustenance rather than whatever? That's my ongoing struggle.

I think you can adjust to eating less but still feeling full by eating slower and drinking lots of water. Feeling hungry will probably lead to failure either short-term (a panful of brownies) or long-term (decreased metabolism). Try to distinguish between actual hunger and the desire to eat. Eat when you're hungry but not when you're bored or stressed or depressed or social.

Physician, heal thyself. I should shut up.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Um, I would be the one eating the Kentucky Fried Chicken.

But hear me out. I use to be fat. Really fat. And I am on the short side so fat on me just looks fatter. I dieted for years and years, and I just kept gaining. Fruit for breakfast, healthy lunch, sensible dinner. fat fat fat fat fat

So I said Fuck it. Fuck dieting, fuck starving myself, fuck not eating what I want. And you know what? I'm skinny now. People are always calling me petite. I have to show people my fat pictures because they don't believe me. I don't look like I could ever have been fat. But I was. And I have kept off the weight for five years.

I eat whatever, whenever I want. But it works for my body. I believe the way I eat now is better for my metabolism and for what my body needs. For years I ate rice cakes and skim milk and vegetables. FAT. My body needs fat to be skinny. But please don't think I walk around eating fast food 24/7. I don't. But I didn't eat fast food for three years and I was fat. Now if I want McDonald's, than I am going to eat it.

Once I started eating whatever I wanted, I stopped craving things I didn't need. I stopped eating that late night snack to make up for the hunger pains I had felt all day. I stopped looking at food as the enemy, I stopped looking at it like it was this horrible, wonderful, bad thing that I couldn't have. And I stopped caring about it. I hate to go all Oprah on you guys, but for me, the habits I needed to change were not on my plate, but in my head.

The only thing that has changed in my diet, is that I now eat less. I eat less than I did when I was following those diets with all the freaking carbohydrates and rules. I eat what I want, I just don't eat as much. And if later I am still hungry? Well I might have a little something. But I don't guilt trip myself about it.

Everyone is different. You have to figure out what the problem is with YOUR body, the food YOU eat and YOUR diet. And change it.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

i've never been on a diet, i have a disgustingly high metabolism and can eat almost whatever i want and not worry.
however, because i was a tad bit messed up when i was younger and have always had some Issues, i was borderline anorexic for a couple years. i didn't actually lose any weight, but i didn't gain any either, which is a bad thing when you're supposed to be gaining lots and lots.
it's weird because i've never had problems with my weight or my body shape really, it's just that i wanted to be in control of something tangible.
now i'm in love with food and cooking and eating and all that good stuff.
i adore making meals. it's kind of depressing, since i don't have anyone to cook for. sob, sob, sob.


-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Diet is Die with a T. Diets are a form of torture. To get a woman (or man - but especially a woman, imho) in a bad mood and to feel increasingly bad about herself, get her to go on a diet. YUCK.

I'm 5'6", and am a size 10. I'm also 30. This is relevant, because just 8 years ago, I was 5'6" and a size 4. But then, I ate 1 piece of weight watchers bread and 1/2 a grapefruit for breakfast, ricecakes and veggies for lunch, and dinner was always either 1/2 cup of rice with soya sauce or 1 bowl of Lipton chicken noodle soup (this is still a fave of mine - there is only 66 calories in it!!). All I thought about was food - I would be exhausted from having no protien or calories, but I had incredible will power at the time and would quote calorie content and fat grams of any food you wanted. I got a high out of wieghing myself every day, losing about 1/2 pound a day for a while. I looked great (but heck - I was too thin).

Eventually I got off the obsession, and my diet slipped. I've gained about 5 to 10 lbs a year - and now weigh 140. I'd like to lose weight again - get back down to at least a size 8. At age 30, being rail thin isnt as important to me, but I'd like to be smaller and fit into my old clothes again. I moved in with my SO last may, and because I love to cook (and cook for him - food is love, right?) like many of you, those dinners became more and more extravagant and frequent. I'm trying to cut back on that now.

I recently tried the low carb diet - I DO love pasta, bread, potatoes, and am not really into sweets at all, but you know 2 days on that and I was a bear. There is no way I could continue eating like that for life. I do need to get back into regular exercise - I have no excuse for not doing that. But now I basically eat coffee for breakfast (well, I drink it actually) have a salad with protien or leftover pasta for lunch at work (or soup if at home) and a sensible dinner. I'm trying to eat many more veggies, and cut down on my carb portions. I dont eat high fat anyway, so there isnt much to cut there.

It really helps to have a partner/family/friends that are supportive but also who love you the way you are. My ex husband was a total twit ((feh) and when I was 110 lbs, he still wanted me to be smaller and would make me guilty for eating. But lets not go there.

Self confidence has gotten me far, today. I love how I look - I'd like to lose maybe 10 or 15 lbs, but I dont obsess - I rarely think about it. Instead I'm gonna embrace my new wisdom (with age) and just focus on good living - which doesnt HAVE to mean good EATING all the time - but to eat sensibly and BALANCED and to get out walking more and most of all get more hugs, smiles and laughter into my life. What more could anyone want!

- Shelagh

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I don't call it a diet. I call it "making different choices". A couple of years ago I lost about 45 pounds with my method. They've started to come back, mostly because I got lazy and went back to my old ways of eating, and being idle for a month after I had foot surgery didn't help. So I'm back in the eating differently state of mine.

What I mean by "making different choices" and "eating different": I don't decide I will never eat some food again. I eat more vegetables and fewer things like macaroni and cheese. I try to have mac & cheese maybe once a month instead of twice a week. I eat smaller portions - my "normal" portions are like a plate piled high with whatever, eaten until I feel so full I whine about how terrible I feel. I have a fat free yogurt in the afternoon instead of a bunch of cookies. I have broccoli and some cous cous for dinner instead of two huge portions of tuna and noodles.

I don't feel hungry because I'm eating these high fiber things. I don't feel deprived because I do get to have the things I really love sometimes, just not every day. I will never be someone who says "Oh goody, they had blackberries at the market - I can't wait to have them for dessert!" but I have been able to stop eating a pint of Ben & Jerry's Cookie Dough Ice Cream every single night.

My difficult times are when there is unlimited food, like a party with a buffet, or a meeting at work where they have cookies. I can't stop. But I'm working on it, and I forgive myself.

The other half of the equation is that I exercise. I do something aerobic 5 days a week and I lift weights two days a week. Building muscle is supposed to rev up your metabolism. It seemed to work for me. Exercising more is easier for me than eating less.

Beth, I would guess that the amount of exercise you do isn't enough to offset the calories you take in. Walking is good, but if you could do something more intense, you might burn off more. Also, are you increasing the weights, or using the same amount that you've always used? You have to keep increasing them to build up more muscle once you get to where it's not a challenge.

My biggest inspirations have been a woman I know who lost weight by this system, and Susan Powter's book "Stop the Insanity".

I know our culture is crazy around weight, and I can't help but be affected by it. I can change my size or I can change my attitude. I try to do some of both.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I have been on several diets, have lost weight on them all and then gained it all back! The only time I ever lost weight and kept it off was when I was training for a half marathon and I walked/jogged 40-50 miles/week and cycled and swam for fun and ate like a horse! (Although I do follow a heart healthy, low fat, Dr Dean Ornish type eating plan, it is NOT a diet, but a healthy lifestyle.) I injured my achilles tendon and have been swimming only for some time now and have gained a lot of weight since, but I am confident that I will lose it as soon as I get the go ahead to start weight bearing exercise again. I think the way to go is to eat MORE and move MORE...

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Yes, I am on a diet. I use the cabbage soup diet because I don't get hungry when I am on it. I only do it one week a month and in that week I lose 5 pounds. Then I eat sensibly the rest of the time and if there is a party at work I eat the goodies and don't feel guilty. However, I don't cheat during the cabbage soup week. I know that I only have to do it for one week and that gives me great will power. I have lost 10 pounds in 3 months. It should be 15, but Christmas put a few pounds back on. Some people lose quite a bit more in a week on this diet than I do....especially men! "They" say, if you want to keep the weight off permanently, you are only supposed to lose 5 pounds a month anyway no matter how you diet. I am determined to lose 40 to 50 pounds as I do not want to get Type II diabetes which all 3 of my siblings now have. I lift weights to build muscle as that is supposed to help burn calories. It also helps smooth out the lumps and bumps (people don't think I'm that fat...or at least that's what they tell me) The other reason that I'm trying to lose weight is to relieve the stress on my knees. I'm hoping that I will be able to be agile longer if I am lighter. I walk for exercise. You do get tired of the cabbage soup, but you get other additional things on different days....there's the baked potato day (my favorite), the bananas and skim milk day (my least favorite day)....even a meat day.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

You know, when I was six I developed the notion that I was fat. This was perpetuated by my neurotic stepmother who was in a constant battle with her weight and who would constantly call me "chunky" or "chubby". I believed I was fat until I was fourteen, when I found a picture of myself at age nine standing with my mother. I didn't recognise the little girl in the picture, for the simple reason that she was skinny. Knobby knees, lanky limbs, and all. But my mother confirmed it, yes, that was you, and I took the picture to my room and cried for the little girl who had grown up hating her body.

When I was fifteen I lost about eight pounds of baby fat when I started my first summer job. Instead of being food obsessed and eating compulsively as I was prone to, I had something else to concentrate my energies on, and the weight melted away. Finally, after eight years of dance lessons, I actually looked like a dancer. The weight stayed off until I quit the job (the circumstances under which I left were very stressful). My mother had accused me of anorexia/drug abuse since I had been losing weight (it didn't occur to her that I walked four miles a day to work and back), and so I started eating with a vengeance. I couldn't make her happy when I was thin, so I would go back to being fat.

Now, I'm thirty five pounds overweight and a size 7/8 (I'm 5'1" and weigh 145lbs, approx.) My clothing size has only gone up by one, yet I really look enormous. I've started taking Phentermine again (I took it when I was sixteen and lost about fifteen pounds, but gained it back a year later when I stopped exercising) and am making some serious lifestyle changes in order to accomodate my health, but sometimes, just sometimes, I wish my stepmother hadn't opened her big fat mouth.

P.S. I know Phentermine has side effects, yadda yadda, and I don't recommend it to people for the simple reason that it's a fairly serious medication. Technically, I shouldn't even be taking it, since I'm on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to obesity, but using it as a jumpstart to a complete lifestyle change has helped immensely. I've lost six pounds in the last month, and I went off of the pill for two weeks and noticed how improved my eating habits were without the pill.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

I refuse to diet. I love food. I gave up smoking pot, smoking cigarettes and my Pepsi. I will NOT GIVE UP the only thing left that I love: food. Lots of food, all kinds of food. mmmmmmmm.

However. I have changed my eating habits to lose the weight I gained with a third child and the quitting cigarettes. (about 60 lbs from both) I am not fat now but I am also not comfortable. I weigh about 138 and am 5'4". I am aiming for 128 lbs. Even 130.

I am doing this by drinking 3 liters of water per day, walking 20 minutes veryvery fast, and just not OVER eating.

I have added sit-ups the past week. While I've lost weight, things aren't as firm as I'd like. Have I ever mentioned how much I absolutely DETEST situps? Enough so that this is the first time in 10 years that I have done regular situps.

I plan on being at a stable weight by at least the end of July.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

When I moved to Los Angeles from New York I suddenly got into a competitive frame of mind that launched me on a total self-improvement binge. I joined Jenny Craig, and after eight months had gone from 175 pounds down to 135 pounds. I am 5 foot 8 with a thin frame, and I was thrilled to actually wear things that had a size 6 label in them. I maintained the weight for a year, then met a man. That killed it. I became the little woman, cooking three meals a day for my man, eating what he ate, mooning over restaurant tables with him while sucking down bottles of wine and platters of chicken wings. I am now close to 170 pounds and the man is gone. I'll be back at Jenny Craig next week. I don't want to be 135 pound again, I just want to be able to close my pants and be able to recognize myself when I catch a glimpse of my reflection in shop windows. It's funny how your image of your size and your actual size can diverge--I thought I looked OK until one of those glimpses made me go, Whoa Mama Bear! Who is that? And is there somebody else behind you? Maybe that's why some heavier people wear inappropriate clothing. They just really don't know how they look. I don't want to be one of those folks. At the same time, people have been telling me recently that I look really good, while when I was wearing 6s and 8s, people kept cautioning me not to "disappear." I just know I'd feel better--stronger, less tired, less self-conscious-- if I were 20 pounds thinner. (Oh, and the braces come off my teeth in two months.)

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Okay, I usually just peacefully and quietly sit on my ass and read everyone else's postings, but today I had to speak up. And this will probably end up to be a ramble. I am an 18 year old female, and at this point in time I weigh 155 pounds. In April of 1999 I weighed 209 pounds. I was happy with myself, yes, I was chunky, yes people called me fat, but I still looked healthy, played sports and my boyfriend loved me. But i'll never forget standing up on the scale after a weeks vacation and looking at the scale...209 pounds. Not only had I just gone over the 200 pound mark, but I had also gained 7 pounds eating nothing but junk on vacation. It scared me. I thought "My god if I keep this up I'm going to be 25 and weigh 300 pounds" My family as well, has heart disease and diabetes in its history, and my father has already passed away from cancer. That morning,I vowed to change. It doesn't mean i'm perfect, and it doesn't mean I have given up chocolate (heaven forbid!) or that i miss out on 25 Cent Wing Wednesdays, it just means I have more control now. I control the crap I used to put in my mouth. Diets suck. The word diet makes me want to throw up. I think that 4 letter word is half the reason people never lose weight. I didn't diet. I changed my eating habits. I found healthy and yummy alternatives to the crap I had been stuffing in. I had settled into a comfortable relationship of 2 years and eating out was a wonderful time to sit down and talk. Eating out was a wonderful way to overeat. I started cooking dinners, healthy dinners. We still sat down, and we still talked, but this time I knew what I was putting in my mouth. I stopped popping in fat filled oven fries and started making my own. I love to cook, and I won't give up food for anything, but low-fat food can still be tasty! I took up walking for an hour a day. Unfortunately with college and work and sitting in the library for hours doing legal research, I don't get out as much as I used to, but I still do what I can. I've lost 55 pounds since April, and health wise, I feel better. Attitude wise, I know I'm still the same person I was back then, and just because I am thinner now, doesn't mean the people that didn't like me then, will like me now. It justs means that physically, I know I am in better shape, and I don't cringe when I walk into a store and I can find a size 11. I don't need to slouch around into the Size 17's. Diets are a waste of time, Slim fast tastes like crap and fast food restaurants taunt us everywhere. Losing weight isn't easy. You can't begin to lose weight until you make a committment to change your lifestyle and to change what you want for yourself. Its never easy, and it took me about 5 weeks before I went "Ya know, these carrots and dip are just about as good as a bag of chips" It also took my 5 weeks to lose a pound. Honestly though, I don't feel any different than I did before. Yes, I am healthier, yes, I am thinner, but in my eyes, I still am, and will always be ME.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

ha! my ears are burning.

"I know people can be overweight and in good shape simultaneously. I think of Anita Rowland--dancing and hiking and eating--as such a person, though I don't know for sure."

I do think that the sort of dancing I do, done on a regular basis, is good exercise. Last spring I was down a size, not by dieting, but by lindy hopping three nights a week or so.

In the early eighties I dieted down to about 120 pounds. (I restricted calories to 1000 a day. I wrote down everything I ate.) it came back within a few years. I've been stable at this weight since the early nineties, at least. the yo-yo syndrome is really something to beware of.

(I wouldn't call myself a regular hiker! I like to walk, though.)

My problem with diets in journals is the vituperative fat-hating I see in some of them, when the journaller goes on a diet. I think it's fine to make your food choices and work hard and feel good about the weight you lose and how your body feels. I'm not happy to read rants about the disgusting fat people you see on the street or in the store, or how those that believe in fat acceptance are self-deluded dweebs. ("you" is a generalized journaller you, composite of folks I've read over the past three years)

So I guess my only cautionary note is to make sure that the diet doesn't negatively affect the journal too much.

Anita of Anita's BOD and Anita's LOL

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

A few years ago I used to work at a nightclub to get me through university. I used to work a 12 hour shift at night and then go straight to classes. I would eat maybe every 3 days and drink a lot of alcohol. I weighed 93 pounds at 5'5" and got very sick with pnuemonia, bronchitis, tonsilitis, you name it I got it. Then I quit the job, met my boyfriend and started eating again. Believe it or not, at one time I actually remember thinking what a crock it was that we were under the assumption we needed food to live, I would literally only eat twice a week, and hey I was doing fine! This food thing was a joke! Who needs food! And actually it wasn't anorexia, it was a lack of time, being on my feet for 12 hours at a time 6 days a week, no sleep and I had no real interest in food. But then I started eating again. 3 years later I weigh 130 pounds, I love eating too much and I'm far too inactive. I hate the gym, and my boyfriend and I love to eat out. So I figure I'll just cut down on what I eat although I have never eaten breakfast and only ocassionally eat lunch I have a large dinner. Hopefully I will never weigh what I used to. Now I'd just like to be healthy and moderately attractive!!

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Actually -- I forgot to mention one very important factor from my year in Europe: I was going out clubbing twice a week and dancing for pretty much 4 hours straight, between 11pm and 5am.

That amount of exercise on a regular basis, couldn't help but make a difference.

At any rate, the message that I've gotten from everything I've read is simply this, that exercise is going to make more of a difference in my particular case than going on a diet.

I also need to make some small adjustments to my eating patterns and remember NOT to skip meals and not to eat dinner too late.

(Actually Beth, I've been thinking that pasta for dinner might be part of the problem. Maybe try lean protein and veggies, instead of a starch and see if that makes a difference?)

Also, it's true that portion sizes in this country are simply _massive_ -- I mean just look at Mickey D's and their super size stuff. Sheesh, that's like, a meal for two.

One thing I've started doing when getting fast food, which is usually only when we're on road trips, is reduce the size of the items I'm getting. I can't finish a large soda on my own now, and a large fry is too big as well if I get a sandwich.

If you're getting enough to eat, your appetite/stomach will eventually adjust.

I've also noticed since I started eating breakfast again and lunch at a semi-regular time, that I get hungry enough to notice that I need a meal.

Anyway -- I do highly recommend "Strong Women Stay Slim" if only because the advice in there is so _sensible_. But again, I can't say if it works or not because I'm still in the early stages of following the advice and re-incorporating exercise into my daily existence.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Yes, I am doing the trying to lose weight thing. (Just can't bring myself to use the work diet.) I, too, was gaining 5 lbs a year and then pregancy and the no-time-for-exercise lifestyle of a working mother did me in. I've never been one of those women that was always on a diet. I thought, and still do to some extent, that dieting was the most boring topic people could talk about.

I am doing Weight Watchers and I joined the Y. I am going for the long term lifestyle changes. I read a recent study that looked at people that had lost major amount of weight and kept it off for over 5 years. They were all exercising for an hour a day. It is hard now with a toddler but I have to get started. I don't mind if it takes me a year to reach my goal but I don't ever want to do this again and I will do whatever it takes to make that happen. I think it means I will never watch TV again. Just not enough hours in the day.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2000

I think my highest weight was 250lbs. I am 5'7".

When I broke off my engagement I got really depressed and stopped eating. I know, when people break up they usually get fatter. I've lost 50 lbs in about eight months, which is a healthy time period. It took me two years to put them on while I was engaged.

The low-carb diet really depends on your personal metabolism. My mother lost 15 lbs in two weeks, I gained four. I've found that eating a large protein based breakfast (yay eggs!), a balanced lunch and a minimal dinner worked best for me.

I plateau-ed at 207 and stopped losing, that was when I realised it was time to join a gym. It's hard to get in the habit of going, and when you stop for a bit, its even harder to start again.

It's like reverse smoking!

Of course, I just spent the last three days consuming nothing but organic juice and water. I didn't get out of bed for fear of killing someone. I was quitting smoking at the same time.

I don't recommend that to anyone, unless you'd like to sit in your bed delirious (which I can do since I lost my job), trying to meditate and about to sell your soul to Satan for a Marlboro Red.

It did take off those extra 7 holiday pounds though.

Anyway, don't deprive yourself Beth. Dieting sucks. Eat what you want, just eat less and fill up on something good for you.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2000

I just wanted to address a few of AllieAnne's points:

Yes, BMI is not a completely precise gauge of obesity, but extremely muscular individuals like Shaquille O'Neal represent only a tiny fraction of the population, so it actually is a fairly accurate representation of a population's obesity level.

Furthermore, the evidence linking a high BMI to MANY diseases is very strong. Here is a page listing just some of them. And, the fact that some individuals in the high BMI group are merely very muscular actually makes the risk GREATER than it appears from the statistics rather than lesser.

And doctors don't blame everything on fat. They blame everything on smoking. But obesity is almost as bad.

And since you asked, Xenical works by blocking the absorption of whatever fat you do eat, and actually does have an effect besides whatever behavior modification might be induced by its unpleasant side effects.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Re: Jennifer's post.

Just a couple of things..

Its funny that the page you link to is one sponsored by an Obesity Clinic...who profits from "scare mongering".. ANd the first "risk" listed is hypertension..which in my post I talk about as being one of the most seriously flawed studies. Don't even get me started about gastric bypass surgery

BMI is NOT a precise guage. It is a measurement based on some arbitrary rule.... Quote "Redefining "overweight" is arbitrary - The definitions of "overweight" and "obese" change every few years. In changing the definitions, the NIH is responding to pressure from the World Health Organization, which adopted this definition some time ago - despite there being little evidence of increased health risk with a BMI of 25 - 26.9. This redefinition means that 25 million more people are now considered "overweight," which means many more customers for the annual $33 billion weight loss industry. "

Funny isn't it.. that the only people who profit from diet and weight loss are the ones who make money from it.

And finally, I didn't ask about Xenical. I know what it does..my point is that this supposed miracle drug has NO more benefit than not taking it... It lines a pharmeceutical company's pockets with money. Nothing more. As soon as you stop taking it, the only thing that stops is the sideeffects. If you lost weight on it, its becuase you reduced calories.

I don't deny being fat CAN be unhealthy. But it isn't always. Being fat and unfit is just as BAD as being skinny and unfit. And yo yo dieting, in my own honorable opinion, based on many studies that I've read, is much much worse. I think we need to stop obessing with "bad food" and "I am SO FAT" thinking and start getting fit by exercising more.

Just my two cents...again.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

I'm aware that the page I linked is for an obesity clinic. Unfortunately, scientific journals don't publish on the web for free, so I wasn't able to link to any primary sources, but I certainly would not have cited that data were it not in agreement with that I have read in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Here is an adobe acrobat document published by the NIH which gives a very detailed risk assessment for various BMI levels and shows that there are indeed elevated health risks associated with a BMI of 25.

Further, I don't see how you can be totally dismissive of the hypertension data when people with a high BMI have a demonstrably higher rate of death from heart disease, which results from hypertension.

Xenical was approved by the FDA, which has very strict requirements that a drug's effectiveness needs to be demonstrated in order for it to be approved. The FDA doesn't make any money off of the drugs it approves--its job is to ensure the safety and efficacy of drugs on the market, and is subject to severe public scrutiny in the cases where it fails to fulfill that mission (remember fen-phen?)

Finally I disagree with your assessment that "the only people who profit from diet and weight loss are the ones who make money from it." What about the people who are able to prolong and improve the quality of their lives by reducing their obesity-related health risks?

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

I should mention, though, that I do absolutely agree with AllieAnne that not all methods of weight loss are healthy. However, for patients facing serious health dangers as a result of their obesity, more risky therapies can be justified.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

One question I have for you, AllieAnne -- in rejecting studies that show a link between obesity and health problems, are you also rejecting studies that show that a healthy diet can prevent health problems? You seem to focus on exercise rather than diet, so I'm just curious. What about a high fiber diet as the best prevention for colon cancer? (On my list of Ways I Do Not Want To Die, colon cancer falls somewhere far below fire ants and crucifiction.) What about the five-a-day plan for reducing cancer risk by increasing daily consumption of fruits and vegetables? Or are you saying that a person can follow those guidelines and still be obese?

I'm also curious about how folks on the Atkins or similar low carb diets get their nutrients and fiber. Are those things considered irrelevant?

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

I don't totally dismiss hypertension and the related factors..what I reject is the "study" that shows that all "fat" people have high blood pressure. Many fat people have large arms, which means that the bp when taken with a small cuff is falsely elevated. The method of collection of data is flawed. Therefore, the study is flawed and therefore conclusions are flawed....I think hypertension and heart disease are caused by UNFIT..which many fat people are..BUT not all. So instead of associating unfit with heart disease we associate fat with heart disease. I think that is the wrong association.

What I am saying is that many studies are flawed. We draw conclusions that aren't based on fact... i.e. obese have high risk of heart problems therefore must be the fat.. wheras it could be yoyo dieting that causes it (there are studies to show that it could be linked- but I don't know if it is)

What I am saying is that many people are blind to the fact that MAINTAINING a weight is healthier than yoyo dietings.

What I am saying is that there is a serious prejudice when it comes to health treatment of fat people... ie you say Jennifer that the "RISK" of this treatment (i.e surgery) outweighs the risk of being overweight. In my mind, that risk (overweight) has not been proven. To many flawed studies.

And Beth, yes I think that people can follow a plan and still be obese. I've got a friend who is vegan..which by the very nature of the diet is not particularly "fattening"..she is around 350pds..and has been vegan for 15 years or so. She has a super amount of energy and etc etc etc. She is not the only person I know like that. The stereotype of the 400pd woman who eats 12 eggs and a pound of bacon is a serious stereotype. Its wrong. I've seen supposed to studies of a girl 200 pds and a girl 125 pd who eat, drink and exercise the same way for I think 6 months. The small girl lost weight. The big girl gained. And it was automatically dismissed that the big girl must have cheated rather than maybe we are going down the wrong path for obesity.

I think good diet is important. I think that eating fiber to prevent colon cancer is essential. But I think that a lot of people are seriously mistaken on what causese obesity. I don't know either..but I do know its not a matter of laziness or willpwer or any of the other things that are attributed to fat people.

I think FIT is more important that THIN. ANd by obessing over food and fat and diet, we miss that connection.

I guess I just want people to look at a fat person and judege them by the same rules as a skinny... ie in an obituary lately for a jazz singer ( Im sorry I can't remember his name) he was referred to as HEFTY and other assorted words... but his music was wonderufl and no different than a skinny guy.. so why on earth was his weight mentioned. I want people to realize that size 14 is a normal weight..and that 18 is not HUGE ELEPHANT GIGANITCO GIRL. And that maybe if we all stopped the yoyo dieting that we wouldnt' have so many supersized people- who I honestly believe are supersized cause they did NOT eat as opposed to they did.

Im sorry to ramble and babble on about this. And am really glad this isn't turning into a flame war... and I hope I haven't said anything harsh.

AA

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

OK, I think I see the basis of our disagreement now, AllieAnne.

The studies which I have cited all draw conclusions about _groups_ of individuals, and as you rightly point out, are not true of _all_ people with a high BMI. I have never heard of any studies that claim that _all_ fat people have high blood pressure.

I, and most other scientists, also totally agree with you that it is more likely that heart disease is caused by a poor diet and lack of exercise rather than by obesity itself. However, most (but not all) obese people do have a poor diet, have a tendency towards overeating, and don't get enough exercise, so the development of obesity is often (but not always) a valid warning sign that you're not leading a healthy lifestyle.

I also agree that it's not appropriate to make value judgements about people who have a hard time maintaining a low body fat level. Genetics plays a very large role in obesity--not only does genetics have a role in determining how fast your metabolism is, it also seems to affect behavioral aspects of weight regulation, such as your food preferences, your energy level, and how "rewarding" you find food to be.

However, some diseases, notably type II diabetes, do seem to be caused or exacerbated by having overabundant fat stores.

As for the risks of yoyo dieting and weighing the risks of extreme treatments, I think that has to be done on an individual basis by a person's physician, but I do think that for certain individuals, the risks of drugs and surgery is less than the risks from obesity, which I think the .pdf file I linked to shows pretty dramatically.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

I agree that a person can eat 5 servings of fruit and vegetables a day, and not eat gigantic portions, and still be clinically obese.

A lot of large people have dieted so much over the years that they have totally fucked up their bodies' setpoints, so no matter how few calories they consume, their body still hoards them all. Apparently exercise and building muscle can help to reset this, but it's a long process.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

AllieAnn....

I don't think you're wrong at all. I will never ever have a body size that is in single digits and that's simply because my body isn't that small. I may have bones that are a size 8, possibly, but my muscle mass will never be that small. I grew up on a farm chucking hay bales, so have huge shoulders and arms, even when terribly fit. I am one of those people has almost always had to ask for a larger blood pressure cuff, even when I was terrifically fit because I have big muscly arms and shoulders.(I've always had to rip out shoulder pads to avoid looking like I was constantly shrugging.)

I also am fat, however. I am doing something about that. I don't agree that a high protein diet or a high carb diet is the way to do anything. I think that balance in all things is the best wisdom, i.e., a balanced diet, regular exercise and a variety of stuff to do. And it may take some experimentation to find the best balance for you. Milk is one of those sugars I simply can't eat, for example. My son worries that sugar is bad because I have to struggle to maintain normal blood sugars as a function of diabetes. I've had to explain to him that a little of anything is never a bad thing, but that if all he did all week was eat one thing and one thing only, he would be sick, but that if he eats a good dinner with a little of everything in it, that one piece of candy isn't going to ruin him forever.

I also agree that a life of yo-yo-ing diets is not healthy or useful. I think that an attitude of balance is appropriate for good health. I don't think that it's all about food or all about exercise or about any one thing in particular. I know for me that it is simply that I must have a reasonable balance of healthy food, good exercise and some good old fashioned fun. In my case, if I don't hold that view, I sentence myself to a slow horrible death.

I've heard things said to that effect before-- that the changes have to be complete lifestyle changes, not the kind of temporary change(s) that a diet implies. Unfortunately, it wasn't until I was diagnosed with diabetes that I actually understood and applied that to myself. I always felt that even though I was fat, I was able to do so much that it didn't matter because afterall I was healthy. I was wrong.

Diets don't work. Loving myself enough to have a little of everything has been the best and most powerful change to my health that I've ever experienced and has given me resulting changes to my health that I would have never accomplished by trying to stay on a *diet.*

Obesity is a major and contributing factor to a number of serious diseases, regardless of how a person fits into a blood pressure cup. I have one of those diseases and I've always had perfect blood pressure and generally, excellent health. As a result of my diagnosis with diabetes, I won't remain as large as I was, but I also know that both my doctor and I would be happy to see me in a size 16, instead of a size 26, which by many standards would still be pretty chunky, and which by both my and my doctor's standards would make me a healthy diabetic. Mind you, my goal isn't so much to lose weight as it is to live healthily. My weight loss has been an outcome of living the way I do now.

Health is a relative thing, and diets don't work because they are a temporary fix; People gain weight back because they don't make long- term changes to their lifestyles. Health is something that should be a way of thinking and living one's life for the long haul. For me, that has to be a balance of food throughout the day and regular exercise. That's what I did when I was young and fit, and that's what I have to do now that I'm older, in order to become and remain fit.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Yes, I'm on a diet. I'm on a diet.

I am trying to diet so that I will be slim -- not thin, *slim* -- by Sept. 24, which is my wedding date. I am getting tons o'support from M -- he's on one, too -- but none from my family. Grrrr!

Anyway, yeah, I've got the dreaded "late dinner" syndrome, too; I don't get home from work until 8:45 pm; and if I go to the gym, 9:45. Long commutes *suck!* My hours are 10-7, btw, thus the late dinner.

I was planning on getting back to the gym this week -- today, actually, but I'm home today because there was too much friggin' snow (see "long commutes," above). I'll try again tomorrow. When I do go, I do 1/2 hour treadmill/bike/rowing machine; and then 30-45 minutes of weights. I love what the rowing machine does for my arms, but that sucker's *hell* on my knees...

Rant off. Good luck, fellow dieters! :>

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Re: jenwade@earthlink.net

-----copied text from message----- Xenical was approved by the FDA, which has very strict requirements that a drug's effectiveness needs to be demonstrated in order for it to be approved. The FDA doesn't make any money off of the drugs it approves--its job is to ensure the safety and efficacy of drugs on the market, and is subject to severe public scrutiny in the cases where it fails to fulfill that mission (remember fen-phen?) ------End of copied text------

Don't forget Redux. Because I fall into the obese category my doctor urged me to get in on this hype and it wasn't the thing to do. Now, in addition to being overweight, I get to deal with the fact that Redux could have seriously damaged my heart valves. It's a bunch of BULL. I can't tell you how strongly I feel about this.

My body has *NEVER* been thin. I was "chunky" from the time I was 5 and up. I've tried everything that my doctors have said, and I've tried pure will power. People compare obesity to an addiction. There is a common thought that people are are very overweight are addicted to food and need to just quit eating. Easy thing to say, eh? Have you ever tried to tell a heroin addict that they need to cut back? How about telling a smoker that they should just smoke the 5 cigarettes a day that they need to survive?

I smoked for a while. It was MUCH easier to quit smoking cold turkey than it ever has been to exercise regularly and eat right. It's a whole different ball game, and I'm tired of people comparing it to other addictions. Alcoholics don't have to drink to live. You can't live with out food to sustain you. It's pretty easy to just cut something out all together, but you can't cut out all of your food.

Make any sense?

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Actually Jennifer our disagreement is not in semantics ..it is not about _ALL_ ..it is about the fact that many studies are flawed..that doctors and scientists tend to believe that any "FIX" is better than being fat. As far as I am concerned, that is a blind stupidity. i.e. Doctor's who say in one breath "diets don't work and are dangerous" and in the next "but lose weight or die". Who look at a healthy patient with healthy blood pressue, glucose, cholesterol etc but who is 50pds overweight and say "you're in mortal danger". Because of some "supposed" risk. Who put the fear of "death" in their patients heads and who take a healthy patient and put them on diets/drugs/surgery and end up with a result of an unhealthy patient.

I've a friend who won't go and have a condition treated because of a situation she dealth with. Her family (the women) have abnormally high testerorne levels. Resulting in excess hair and other things. She went to have it treated and the internist (endocronologist) looked at her and said "its cause you're fat". She was a size 16 at the time. He didn't do any other tests. Didn't look at the tests results there. Didn't ask about family history. And that goes in the studies as "risk from obesity". Doctors who are blind to this exist, and are extremely prevalent. I suffered from an anxiety attack in universtiy (lack of sleep, 4 exams in 36 hours, and very ill father) went to the doctor- its cause you're fat).

And on moderate note, I think our kids are getting fatter. And I think our society is getting fatter. But I think we need to stop obessesing with the risks of being fat and start obessing with being "fit"- of raising kids to move and enjoy. To stop moralizing food (im good caause i only ate a carrot today). Food should be an enjoyable experience. Beth shouldn't feel that she has a problem cause she likes to eat. I think that eating lots of vegetables for fibre to risk colon cancer is good. I think eating less meat more veggies is good. I think the Canadian Food triangle thing is good.

AA

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

AllieAnne, you say that "it is about the fact that many studies are flawed..that doctors and scientists tend to believe that any "FIX" is better than being fat." But you back up this contention with only anecdotal evidence, and have mentioned specifically only one flaw (the blood pressure cuff thing).

The fact is that some studies in this or _any_ field have flaws, but this shouldn't invalidate all research in this field.

You complain about doctors "Who look at a healthy patient with healthy blood pressue, glucose, cholesterol etc but who is 50pds overweight and say "you're in mortal danger". Because of some "supposed" risk." Well, yes, because obesity is a major risk factor for the development of these things in the future (have you read the NIH document?). Would you also say that a doctor would be remiss in counseling a healthy patient to quit smoking? Or to stop having promiscuous unprotected sex? By the time your blood glucose and cholesterol start to go up, it means that you are already in the early stages of disease.

For lethal, incurable diseases like heart disease, AIDS, diabetes, and many cancers, there is little which can be done once the patient has progressed to the disease stage. As a result, doctors strongly advocate minimizing your risk of developing these things by not smoking, using condoms, and yes, maintaining a healthy body weight.

Sure, there are some people who can be obese and not have complications, just as some people who smoke all their lives never succumb to smoking-related illness. But I don't recommend that anyone lay their bets on turning out to be one of those people.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

>> I don't recommend that anyone lay their bets on turning out to be one of those people. <<

And I don't recommend that all thin people lay their bets on *not* getting heart disease or cancer or diabetes just because they fir into some number range on a table.

Thin people are just as likely to be substance abusers, including abusers of food, as are heavier people, in my experience. Thin people get sick and die just like everyone else does, and my experience is, they often have more miserable lives than heavier people - unless they are just "naturally thin" and can eat whatever they like and never gain weight and so they don't have to get mentally ill over food (and I married to one of those people, so I know they exist).

I'd rather lay my bets on having a happier (and longer) life by not obsessing about body size and appearance, and by enjoying the foods I do eat, whether it's all fruit and veggies one day, and a burger and fries the next day.

And AA is right that there are a lot of doctors out there who are *ignorant fools* and treat their patients like dirt out of their own ignorance. They do more harm than good by trying to dismiss every ailment that comes up by saying "it's because you're fat" (when the person might not really even be "obese" by any medical definition) - they are lazy and stupid, and they need to be reported - similar to the doctor Beth complained about some time back when she was in a lot of pain, who dismissed her without even doing any tests.

Anyway, enough. Yeah, it's great to be "fit," but one person's fit is another's fat. And again, I wouldn't lay any bets on being (or staying) healthy just based on your body weight.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

>And I don't recommend that all thin people lay their bets on *not >getting heart disease or cancer or diabetes just because they fir into >some number range on a table.

Nope, nor do I. All I'm saying is that being lean reduces your chances of developing certain diseases, just like not smoking. But of course, we all die of something eventually.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

Being a non-smoker doesn't mean you're safe from lung cancer, heart disease, or emphysema, either, but no smart person uses that as an excuse to keep smoking.

I know that "fat" does not equal "unfit," but I worry about the fact that people are dismissing years of research linking obesity to serious health problems. I think there's a serious difference between accepting the body shape you were born with and not trying to fit some unattainable ideal, and dismissing serious, proven health risks. That's a personal choice that you are entitled to make, but I worry when I see people preaching that approach.

I confess that I have some other feelings that affect my opinions in this area: when AllieAnne said that food should be an enjoyable experience, my immediate reaction was, yeah, but that's not the most important consideration, and neither are all the health concerns. Americans are terrible gluttons at the expense of the environment and the rest of the world. The foods that are bad for people tend to be not so hot for the environment, either.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

Here's a link http://www.nejm.org/content/1998/0338/0001/0052.asp and another one http://www.wwlp.com/Medical/Edell/index.html

I hope Im not preaching..that's not my intention. I dismiss diets- there are so MANY studies that link diets to huge amounts of body stress. I think there are complications to obesity- but that we don't know /understand/ realize everything surrounding it. And the obession to lose weight is more dangerous than maintaining a weight- and if we start to "preach" maintaining we would end up with less fat people. 95% of diets don't work. Its a known fact from some study of another- I can probably find it if you want. Which means 95% of people who diet either end up putting the same weight back on OR gaining more.

So follow me here- we get a 300pd woman- who by definition is "seriously" overweight and therefore risking complications (heart disease, diabetes etc). So what's the prescription- right now its "lose weight". So the woman tries- she drops her diet to 1200 calories per day (900 being starvation, 2400 being the rec'd for maintenance). She does this for say 6 months and loses say 8pds per month (which is the rec'd amount). Then the "stress" kicks in and her body doesn't lose anymore (the "platform"). She drops more calories to lose more weight - now is at starvation levels. More stress. And here's what I think- I don't willpower kicks in (She had willpower for 8 months now suddenly she's lost it??? I dont' think so). I think at this point her body takes over- its starving- it needs food..and she refeeds.. yo yo dieting at its best. She gains weight back. Her metabolism is blown. Now she is 310. She gets some disease- and its linked to her obesity. Associated/. Caused. Whatever the word. I think this is what we don't control for in studies. And this is why I think many studies are flawed- they don't control for fat people who are fat because they are fat rather than fat people who are fat because they yoyo'd (oh good know I am making up wordds). And I think the doctor should have prescribed "maintenance"- maintain that weight. From what I've read, from what I put together, maintaining 300 pds is better than yoyo dieting. From crashing and regaining. Its less stressful on the body. And this is understood in the medical world. Most doctors know and understand this. Maintenance and fitness. Rather than losing and gaining.

And of course, trying to educate people so the yoyo dieting doesn't occur in the first place- so that we don't end up with as many supersized people.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

AllieAnne, I agree with you that yoyo dieting is not healthy. However, that is clearly not the ONLY option available to overweight people who want to lose weight. I think there is also another semantic issue at work here, in that the term "diet" has not been clearly defined. A diet can mean following a prescribed list of meals, counting calories, or merely having a heightened awareness about the foods you eat (when I say I'm on a diet, that's what I mean). Additionally, there are many different types of diets, some healthy and some not.

The NEJM editorial you cited reflects a viewpoint shared by a substantial portion of medical personnel. However, they fail to mention the numerous studies which show that in general, obese people tend to overeat, to eat too much fat, and are less active than they should be (all factors which are directly implicated in the development of heart disease and stroke, which bolsters the theory that yoyo dieting is _not_ primarily to blame for these health problems). Moderate changes in these three factors will result in weight loss for most overweight people.

I have heard of physicians advocating very low calorie diets such as the one you described for people suffering from advanced heart disease or other serious illnesses where excess weight puts the patient in immediate danger. However, you are correct in saying that a diet where serious deprivation is induced is not a viable long-term solution for most people.

Btw, your second link is for something inside a frame, so I wasn't able to read that article.

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

I guess we should agree to disagree.

My personal experience- every diet rec'd by a doctor tends to a 'drastic' cut in calories. Down to the 1200-1500 mark. Its slowly coming around- but to many still "prescribe" that.

Gastic bypass surgery is not an option- I'd rather take a risk of "maybe" having problems in future than taking the risk of "maybe" dieing on a surgery table now. Also, the sideeffects are numerous. Decreased mineral, vitamin absorption. The dumping issues. The smell. Not the way I want to lead my life. Causes to many issues. Besides, I like to eat and drink and eating and the restrictions imposed by this surgery - well they don't jive with me.

Drugs- being Xenical, Meridian and Phentamarine (excuse spelling) in my mind have not been researched enough and two, cause more side- effects than results.

So given those options, I don't believe in diets, surgery or the existing drugs, I choose to maintain. I think overall, based on what I know and what I've read, and what I understand about human physiology that maintenance is healthier state for 'me' than trying to lose wieght be any of those means. Its a personal choice and belief.

That said, I could defend my lifestyle and tell you that I'm a 90% vegetarian (which is a truly bizarre statement that makes no sense but giving you the idea), hate fast food, cook most of my own food and swim 3 times a week- and I've been the same weight for the last 5 years. Which by standards, is the "healthy" lifestyle that is accepted now. But I don't think it really should make a difference.

If you'll forgive the analogy, I think the weight loss ideas and issues are in the "world is flat" syndrome- we believe in something that may or may not be true- evidence exists on both sides. My own personal experiences are different from that hypothesis so I am somewhere between the world is flat and the world is round hypothesis. I maintain my health the best way I know how. And I guess that is what is truly important.

AA.

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2000

Don't you hate when you forget certain things...

1. I don't deny there may be risks to obesity. I jsut am of the opinion that many risks are caused more by stress on the body than my obesity. Ease the stress, ease the risks. This is why I beleive in maintenance and fitness.

2. That second link acutally doesn't work- sorry about that. Its an article written by Dr. Dean Edell. Its a daily column that was updated. The idea of the article is that anorexics who gain weight tend to put it on in the 'apple' manner- i.e. on their trunk. This type of weight distribution is seen as the most risky(versus the pear shape. The suggestion being that extreme dieting may eventually change the shape of a dieter's body which may be cause of some of the issues related to obesity. Its a 'weak' article based on the evidence from 21 patients, which is quite a small sample.

If you want it just email, I have the text of the article.

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2000

I'm not on a diet (diets rank right up there with like, stirrup pants, on a list of things I will never, ever go anywhere near) but I have been a vegetarian for nearly 2.5 years and I feel so much better, I don't have words.

Like every woman, my body completely changed during adolesence and suddenly I found myself with these goddamn hips and this ass and bigger thighs - the wrath of German ancestry. I literally don't remember what sizes I wore in high school, mainly because I automatically bought everything bigger than I needed, to hide my body which I'd always been uncomfortable with (more for how men reacted to it than to how it looked). I can't tell you what I've weighed over the years, because I don't know. I do not know my current weight at all, but at my last checkup in December 98, it was in the 135-140 range, and I remember that I was horrified. Somehow I'd gotten 125 stuck in my head and was very disturbed to find that I was higher than that number. It wigged me out, but it didn't change anything. I am, essentially, really lazy and despite the distorted mental image of myself I carry around in my head, I'm just ignoring the whole "how much do I weigh" thing. (Always fun, when I encounter a form that asks for my weight and I get to chuckle and leave it blank. Fight the power.) I know I've dropped trouser/jeans sizes rapidly but those aren't (as we all know) reliable indicators of anything.

It was completely bizarre to find a description of myself, after the Chicago journaller's gathering, as "tiny". I'm short (5'4") but I've always felt. . . not tiny. Body shape wise. That was a great reality check for me.

Anyway. I have major issues with the fat acceptance movement because I see it as dangerous as the sicko pro-deathly thin crap that magazines and entertainment throw at us: neither state is the ideal body shape in any sense - but somewhere inbetween. I think our personal image demons get in the way of our ability to discuss these things rationally. Hate the fat, love the person.

It's just, I don't want to see one more talk show host helping to hoist 800lb people out of their homes. That's insane.

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2000

Interesting Link from Salon today:

http://www.salon.com/health/feature/2000/01/27/anorexia/index.html

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2000

That story was thoroughly creepy. I'll put that on the front page tomorrow -- thanks for pointing it out.

-- Anonymous, January 27, 2000

There's an article at OnHealth on extremely low calorie diets. They claim that eating calorie ranges from 2000-2200 (which isn't -that- extreme, really) can reduce your risk of diabetes, inhibit tumor growth, and make you less likely to get diseases like Alzheimer's. Of course, they've really only tested this on rats...

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

Okay, I just used Jeremy's stats at the BMI/ideal weight calculator at phys.com, and according to that he is one pound underweight and .1 lower than his lowest ideal BMI. This information was included regarding the risks of being underweight:

Underweight can be as great a danger as overweight, and your hormones, bones and heart could all be in danger if you don't take in enough calories and maintain a healthy level of body fat.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

With regard to being underweight... I read the periodical Health and also Prevention and the newspaper columns on health and I have more than once read that if you wish to live a really long life you should keep your caloric intake low...the less you eat the longer you live. I don't think that this means being underweight though and you do need to eat all the dark red, dark green, and dark yellow veggies and fruits and other important foods necessary to maintain your health. We just don't need to stress our bodies out processing all this extra food that we so enjoy stuffing into ourselves.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

I've seen quite a few compelling animal studies on very low calorie diets prolonging life expectency by up to 50%. I think there's some human epidemiological data as well...maybe I'll go to the library later and look it up.

I think the main health concern with very low calorie diets is that once you get below 1500 calories a day or so, it's difficult to get all the nutrients you need to stay healthy...but it is possible if you plan your eating carefully. However, the Salon author's diet of coke and cigarettes (or the marginally more healthy apple juice and cigarettes) definitely doesn't fit the bill.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

That Salon article fascinated me, frankly. I have always had a reaction to falling in love / being obsessed with someone in which I get a jittery stomach and lose my appetite. I don't associate it with trying to lose weight but with the emotion hormones. It's euphoric. I crave that feelings sometimes. I can imagine how one would pursue it by not eating. One hears of people fasting for religious or cleaning reasons and how great they are said to feel after a couple of days. This seems closer to that.

I know anorexia is dangerous, yet I can't help feeling admiration for someone who can control themself this way. I know in my head that it's just as much a compulsion as whatever sent me back to the buffet four times for bacon this morning. Yet in my heart I'm feeling, if I could only have that much control - damn. I'd have it made.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

The story made perfect sense to me. Which means I'm creepy but I can live with that.

When she wrote about the feeling of power you have over your body: THAT is 100perfuckincent true. I've done exactly what she has done before probably 4 times. I keep wishing I can do that now but since I don't smoke anymore, it just isn't working...

But really what I say is true. Mary and my family were having a fit at one point because they said I looked like a walking skeleton. I didn't believe them and kept going.

I was also in unhappy and unstable situations while doing it though. So there's that.

When the world is crazy and people are crazy and the only thing you can control: your hunger and your mind. People who aren't sure what the future holds want desparately to control something.

My Arm Chair Analysis

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

I haven't read the article, and I haven't really been following this thread, because I haven't done any sort of dieting since I was in high school (where I weighed about what I do now, but felt much worse about it). When I was 19, I dropped down to 95 lbs. (5'5") without planning to - stress, the beginning of a chronic condition that makes me lose my appetite - and I stayed between 95-110 until about 3 years ago.

Feeling 'good' meant being on the high end of that, where I could just eat when I was hungry or wanting something that tasted good without having to think about it too much. Feeling bad was at the low end, when the weight was just sloughing off without my will, and I had to actually plan to eat, count calories, make sure that I ate enough and (when my appetite was poor) make sure that every calorie counted nutrient-wise, because if I filled up on a little junk food, I might not be able to bring myself to also cram in enough real food to stay relatively healthy.

I gotta tell you, I HATE having to think about food beyond 'mmm, this is good.' A body that is working properly should (in my probably warped view) be hungry in proportion to the amount it needs, and should, over a reasonable span of time 'want' foods that balance out properly. When mine doesn't, I feel betrayed.

For me, being too thin was very unhealthy - it was first of all an indicator of other health problems. And it made it much harder to cope with them. An underweight body has no backup plan if you get sick - there is no fat reserve left to lose so it starts immediately in on chewing away muscle. Antibodies get out of whack, and you get secondary illnesses easier.

And you BRUISE a lot, because when you bump into something, or brush against something, it isn't hard surface to nice cushiony surface - it's hard surface to almost bare bone.

I weight about 128 now, and other than a bit of startle when I couldn't fit into clothes of a size I'd been wearing for a couple decades, I'm loving it. It's a good median range where I am back to not having to worry too much about how much I ate today, or whether or not I 'wasted' some of those calories on junk.

I've still got my same old chronic condition and it still bothers me a lot some days - but at least I feel like I have a little buffer zone before it becomes severely health threatening.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

I'm still shuddering after reading that article. Uggh. How could someone do that to themselves? I work with high school and college students (leading backpacking trips), and I'm constantly coming across people who worry excessively about weight. You'd be amazed how many people decide that a two week backpacking trip is an excellent time to start dieting...and are reluctant to eat even though they're hiking 10 miles a day with a 50 pound pack. Now that is a health/safety hazard! Especially since these are people who generally are a perfectly reasonable size. I've had 10 year old students tell me they were on a diet...for no other reason than because they think it sounds cool and grown-up. I'm not disputing that there are legitimate concerns about excessive weight, or that there probably are 10 year olds out there who should be eating more sensibly. But I have to believe there's something wrong with the way we portray food/weight/body image issues to our kids when they spend that much time worrying about it.

On a more personal note...I suppose I come in on the other side of this issue. I've been thin all my life, but somewhere in the middle of college I lost about 15 pounds totally unintentionally. I'm 5'4'' and dropped from 120 to 105. Still no idea why. My weight is stable now and has been for several years, but I am constantly asked questions about my eating habits; even being asked outright if I'm anorexic (No!). I know they're trying to be helpful (and I suppose I would ask too if I were really concerned about someone), but it bothers me. I do tend to eat healthy foods, but I eat as much of them as I want, and I don't worry at all about periodic junk food attacks. As far as health problems with being underweight, I don't know much about the medical research, but I know personally I was happier and healthier when I was 10 pounds heavier. I get cold really easily, I have less energy, I have a hard time finding things in my size (not clothes so much as outdoor gear, which tends to come in S/M/L). I'd love to gain back some of that weight, but I've had a hard time doing so. I like the foods I eat (mostly vegetarian), and I really have no desire to start drinking whole milk or fatty meats or anything like that.

What bugs me about the whole thing is that people constantly feel compelled to comment on my weight in ways they would never consider doing if I were overweight to the same degree I'm under now. I can't even mention the issue without people rolling their eyes and saying "Gee, I wish that was my problem." It's as though dieting has become the new female bonding ritual and I'm out of the loop. I'm not suggesting that dieting is inherently evil...I'm all in favor of people getting more exercise and eating healthier food. But I do wish that our preoccupation with weight was less of an issue in how we interact with each other.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

Let's face it, when people say "eat healthy" which means so you don't keep gaining weight as you age, means "diet." And everything I've read about health says that we should be on a diet and working out with weights and getting cardio untill the day we die. We lose muscle and bone density as we age and one of the only things to combat that is lifting weights. Heavy weights, the kind you need someone to spot you in a gym. Oh, I've lost some fat and let me tell you, just "walking" does not do it for me. I need to eat a lot less and actually break a sweat for 30 min. or more a day to get any benefits. But you know what, it's not that bad. I like it now.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2000

Lots of stuff to say:

- Beth asked about health risks associated with anorexia. The answer is that if you're not taking in enough calories to replace the ones you expend through activity, your body has to draw the energy from its internal resources. After it's used up as much of your major muscle groups as it can and still keep you upright, it moves onto your fatty tissues, and then [fasten your seat belts, this gets real grody real fast] your body starts to harvest meat off your own internal organs. Fatal cases of anorexia are actually heart failure: the anorectics' hearts don't have enough muscle left to keep pumping. The body has consumed it all.

Links to later, less direct, complications that have been made; women who were anorectic as adolecents are many more times likely than average to suffer from osteoperosis later, because their bones were denied nourishment during critical stages of development. Don't know if this applies to other systems as well.

- Starvation euphoria: When you're starving, your body produces all these happy chemicals that give you an emotional boost and a shot of energy. That's because if you were a caveman (caveperson? Person of cave?) and your body felt it was in danger, it would inject you with something that made you get off your ass and go find something to eat. Oh, just stop me if I get too technical. I don't know why I'm bothering when there's a doctor in the house. Anyway, the high you get from not eating is real. I've felt it on occasion, and I've gotta say that like most highs it makes you unfocussed and you tend to crash really hard when you finally eat. (I've never deliberately induced this, but I've worked at jobs sometimes where I couldn't get away for lunch, and I don't eat breakfast. I know I should, but I never wake up hungry. How could I be hungry when all I've done for the past eight hours is sleep?)

- On the topic of weight gain in general: does anyone else remember a study that was conducted just as personal computers were becoming prevelant in the business world? It showed that secretaries who were switched from manual typewriters to word-processors gained an average of ten pounds over the next year. Little movements make all the difference in how many calories your body actually needs and uses, and as technology moves forward we eliminate more and more of those small movements. God, when I was a wee tot we had to get out of our comfy chairs to change channels on the TV! No wonder kids today are so chubby!

- I read recently that one change in American habits that may be linked to the increasing obesity rate is that people rarely sit down and just eat anymore. Everyone eats while doing other things: reading, watching television, surfing the web, playing video games. Your brain isn't aware on the conscious level of its food intake. It seems that you need to concentrate on your food somewhat in order for your brain to tell you to stop feeding yourself at some point. If you eat a full meal and find yourself wandering to the fridge an hour later for a snack because you're "still hungry" chances are your hunger switch got in the "on" position by you not putting down your Utne Reader during dinner.

I was relieved to hear this because I have this problem every time I go to the movies: I eat popcorn until there isn't anymore, then partway through the flick I start feeling nauseated and nervous, and then for the rest of the night I have a terrible jangly, sickly feeling similar to when I've had too much caffeine. That's because I've been stuffing myself with way way more than the Recommended Daily Allowance of salt and oil without any part of me except my chewing and swallowing muscles being engaged in what I was actually doing. I've been thinking that I must be the world's biggest idiot to keep gorging myself like that, but it turns out that it's not just MY problem.

- Semi-related: I really hate those ads for medication that you're supposed to take before you eat something that you know will give you heartburn or an upset stomach. That's your body's way of telling you to STOP EATING THAT CRAP! They always show some guy with a spare tire hefting a rat-infested chili dog. Urgh.

............

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2000

I used to be underweight. I am 5'4" and was about 95lbs. Not through diet or anything, I just am naturally skinny. I have gained about 10 pounds in the past year and it has really made a difference for the better. I am not as cold all the time, and I get sick much, much less, as well as having more energy. My doctor had wanted me to gain more weight because she felt that without any "reserves" your body can be in a precarious situation if you get ill.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2000

Actually, what I read said, that you can be as unhealthy if not fit even if you're _thin_ as if you were overweight.

Meaning, that a sedentary thin person, who eats badly, but doesn't gain any weight, can have the same kind of health risks as the person who does put on the weight, eating the same kinds of foods.

Hence, being thin all by itself is not a good measure of overall healthiness. The point is not to aim at being slender, but to aim for being fit and healthy, regardless of poundage. If you're healthy -- good bloodwork, good food and exercise habits, etc. but still carrying an extra 5 pounds according to BMI or weight charts, chances are you're fine and shouldn't worry too much about those 5 pounds.

The message of the book was simply that being _fit_ is a better measure of health than weight alone. Some folks can be over or underweight their entire lives, but if they're fit and eat well chances of _good health_ are better over all.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2000

i remember the body-fat percentage test in 7th grade, in which mine was 8% (during track season) and a friend's was 15%, but she was almost as thin as i was. Several years later i had another test and i had gone up to 18%, yet i was only 5 pounds heavier, and still _under_ my "ideal" weight. Someone who looks heavier may actually be healthier than a slim person with a poor diet...and i think the best way to change that is not to starve yourself, but to resolve not to eat crap. If you eat more fresh food and less commercially prepared stuff it makes a difference; it's hard to get time to do that, but fast food is soulless and also bad for you physically. i volunteer for an organization that says it is "sex- and body-positive"; they mostly do safer-sex education, but also have parties in mid-winter where you can only wear underwear, and there are _plenty_ of people who look hot but are over their prescribed weights...men and women both!

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2000

Gaaaah that article made me feel vaguely ill. Mostly because there's a flaw in her logic IMHO. "It's under control" she says -- but it seems to me that it's not "under control" if it keeps popping up again.

And starvation is not a _healthy_ dieting tool.

To boot, when I would _forget_ to eat, I didn't lose any weight at all. In fact I gained weight because, as someone mentioned above, my body is in "hoard" mode.

Ugh. I still have the heebie jeebies from reading that article. It made me want to go and eat a healthy breakfast and work out at the gym.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

Just because the Salon author starves herself repeatedly doesn't necessarily mean she can't control it. I see her behavior as being analagous to how many people deal with alcohol. You can drink on a regular basis and not be an alcoholic.

I think the distinction lies in whether you persist in a potentially destructive behavior because you _want_ to or because you _need_ to. The author seems to believe that she could stop starving herself if her health were in danger, and right now, we have no way of knowing whether or not this is true.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

You know, for years I had a secret admiration for people who could "control" their eating habits through anorexic behavior until I sat in an eating disorder group and listened to the similarities in what motivates starvation or binging/purging or just plain overeating. The anorexic had no more control than the compulsive overeater or the bulimic and our problems all stemmed from the same place - usually lack of control in the rest of our lives, especially relationships.

I believe in body acceptance period. I don't particularly appreciate over-hostile proponents of fat-acceptance, but for myself I do believe in accepting who I am and that includes accepting my body as well.

Interestingly enough I noticed that both sides of the spectrum on this forum felt threatened by the opposing view, why is that?

Which do we find more creepy - an article about a woman who uses anorexic methods to feel good about herself or an account from an obese person listing down the food she/he enjoys and the happiness she's found in ignoring her weight? Do we find them equally unhealthy but feel one is more acceptable than the other?

For myself, I'm less appalled by the obese woman (who is ficticious at this point) because I relate to it more. I don't find it sick or terrible. But, I would guess that I'm in the minority and I know there was a time (college and highschool years) when I would have applauded the anorexic behavior because she seems to have it under 'control' (which I now dispute) and cringe at any obese person admitting an enjoyment of food in any way.

When I was in this eating disorder group I remember thinking how uncomfortable the little fold out chairs were, that we were sitting on, and how aware of my body and uncomfortable I was because of that awareness. (I am in the obese category and have dealt/deal with bulimia and compulsive overeating.)

As the first night went on I noticed the thinnest woman there and the walking stick she used to assist her walking. Later, she spoke of how painful just sitting in the chair was for her (she was so thin her sitting bones hurt), how aware she was of her body and how uncomfortable she was by that awareness.

At that point I realized how alike we both were even though she was the thinnest person in the group and I was the largest.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

I wouldn't be too sure you're in the minority in finding the Salon woman more troubling, Tammy. But I would say that a more fair comparison is to compare her to a compulsive eater who eats unhealthy foods because of emotional problems, rather than comparing her to someone who eats because she enjoys eating. If you put it into those terms, then I think most people would agree that the two scenarios are equally troubling and unhealthy.

On the other hand, you could make this comparison: an obese woman who's accepting of her body, who eats because she enjoys food and sees eating as one of the great pleasures of life and who isn't particularly unhappy with her life, vs. a woman who is concerned about health and fitness and who watches fat and calories and gets lots of exercise. I would submit that both are personal choices and neither one ought to be villified. Speaking as a woman in the second category, I will agree not to judge women in the first group if they'll agree not to call me anorexic, superficial, or brainwashed, how's that?

HOWEVER ... I do think that the message that I hear from some advocates of size acceptance is dangerous, i.e, that being obese isn't really bad for your health. I think it's as dangerous as yo-yo dieting and starvation and extreme body image problems. That doesn't mean I think we should be judging personal lifestyle choices; I'm just concerned about misinformation that affects the choices people make about their health.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

I think Beth K has the right idea here...that it's fitness rather than weight that we should be concerned with. Keep in mind that muscle has weight too - more than fat, I think. In fact, that's one of my theories about my own weight loss; I was much more athletic when I was in high school than I am now.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

The thing with the size-acceptance movement is, like any movement, the visible spokespeople tend to be the extremists. And the spokespeople the media pick on are, well, the most visible. That is, the largest.

Size acceptance or no size acceptance, it is probably wiser not to argue that if one's weight affects one's health -- as it can hardly help doing at the 300-400 pound plus mark -- it might, perhaps, be time to think about doing something about it.

However, I must join the chorus of voices crying that one should not be suffering the abuse of the medical profession if one's WEIGHT -- and only WEIGHT -- exceeds an arbitrary number on a chart created from averages.

It simply is not valid, and I can speak to this from my own experience. I will never, and I mean never, weigh what I have been told I am supposed to weigh based on my height -- not unless I am dying of some terminal disease. My entire family is heavy -- even the ones who aren't fat. My sister, who is a size ten, bodyfat practically in the single digits, fit and athletic, still weighs about twenty-five pounds more than she's "supposed" to -- which makes her obese. My youngest brother, likewise fit and trim, weighs what a six-foot man is "supposed" to, and he's five-seven. Back when I was at my peak of working out, trimmer if not lighter than I have ever been, I weighed around five pounds less than I do now, and got constant grief from my doctor about it. We are good Polish peasant stock, large-boned and muscular, and even the "large-boned" numbers on a weight chart don't seem to take this into account.

I am tired of it. I am tired of this strange arbitrary numbers game. Following this thread, I've found myself constantly thinking of two separate magazine articles about size.

The first, which might have been in Self, about a year ago, featured "the average North American woman," 140 pounds. A dozen or so women were pictured -- all ages and heights and levels of activity, all weighing 140 pounds. A couple were a bit plump-looking; more were attractive, fit and healthy. In the next issue, did the Letters column feature kudos to the magazine for showing such a range of beautiful, real women? It did not. Instead, letter-writers railed about being forced to look at ugly, fat women, and attacked the editors who would promote this as some kind of ideal.

The second, in the most recent issue of Glamour (I think I'm revealing more than I should about my trashy magazine habit here) is called the Great Kate Weight Debate. The subject: "Men and women rate the Kates: Moss, Winslet and Dillon." It's interesting for a number of things (not least of which is that, surprisingly, Moss is tops with men, not in style-conscious New York, but in midwestern Missoula).

The thing that bugged me, however, was the weight estimates. Each Kate's weight is estimated, supposedly because none of them would give an actual figure. The estimates, however, are bizarre. Kate Moss, at 5'7", is rated at 115 pounds (which sounds surprisingly normal to me). Winslet, at 5'8", they put at 130. Are they kidding? Look at the woman, for God's sake. Not that she's fat -- but check her shoulders, her hands, just the sturdy shape of her! At 5'8", if she's anything less than 145, I'll bite my bonnet. Kate Dillon, at 5'11" and size 14, and likewise a very beautiful woman, is also, I suspect, underestimated at 175.

I think the same mentality that makes men estimate a woman, any woman, if she looks a normal size, as "120 pounds" is at work here -- the big Weight Lie. I don't know whether they thought they would run into problems from any of the Kates' "people" or what the deal is -- but it bothers me, particularly in an article supposedly directed at fostering a view of "size reality."

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

I wasn't trying to make a skewed comparision, but only recognize that at one point I had less of a problem with anorexic behavior than even seeing large-sized people enjoying food (the latter was more creepy to me).

Of course the two don't compare - I merely wondered if others have or still do feel as once did: that it was more uncomfortable to hear about food enjoyment from someone who is large than seeing or knowing that someone else is participating in anorexic behavior.

I was also trying to point out how _my_ opinion about body acceptance has changed through involvement in eating disorder groups and how I saw similarities in the motivations behind food control (be it starvation, binging, purging, or compulsive overeating).

I was actually going off on my own thoughts and was not, in anyway, trying to call anyone on anything. We all have a multitude of opinions on this and we all respond to societal mandates that dictate health and body standards in different ways.

For me it is healthier to accept, it keeps me from binging/burging/compulsive overeating (I still overeat) and also from depression/suicide. If later I can work to bring my body to a healthier weight without upsetting the emotional balance I've found, I will. It's a goal, but something I (and anyone else facing eating disorders at any end of the spectrum) would want to do without stepping back into the food control/exercise obsession/compulsion.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2000

I'm amazed by those ads for heart burn remedies because there are so many of them. I've never had heartburn, can eat any kind of spicy thing, and wonder how common it is. I figure they must run the ads because there's a population out there who has this problem and wants a remedy for it. But it sure isn't me, thank god.

Also, I've known people with acid reflux problems caused by hiatial hernias or by being overweight in such a way that acid was being forced back up their esophagus. But their problems had nothign to do with what kind of food they were eating, just the fact that stomach acid was getting into their throats.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2000

Jeremy and I always keep a supply of Tagamet on hand, but it doesn't have much to do with spicy foods. In my case it's coffee, which I occasionally manage to give up or cut way back on for a while, plus the pain killers I take for my vicious headaches and menstrual cramps (aspirin, Aleve, or ibuprofen ... Tylenol is useless). It's NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs -- aspirin, advil, etc.) that cause problems for Jeremy, as well, because he has chronic neck pain that is allegedly untreatable.

I've had ulcers in the past, and the ulcer diet isn't fun -- no spicy foods, no NSAIDs, no caffeine, no alcohol, no acidic fruits and vegetables, no dairy. I'd rather pop a Tagamet once in a while, especially since the pain killers aren't really optional a few days out of every month. And I'm not willing to eat bland food for the rest of my life.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2000

Weight to height ratio is the least reliable way to estimate health and "appropriate size". A scale is only useful as a guide to pounds lost and gained but not a dictator of perfect weight. Scales will fail when comparing people because one would have to take into consideration muscle mass and bone density. To even go one step further you could venture into type of muscle mass [if any] each person has and quantity of each. The human body has both white and red muscle group, red being more long and lean [a runner type] and white being shorter and thicker [weightlifter type]. Skinny looking people can actually be fat so body fat percentage is also a factor to look at.

An example: A co-worker, female 5'-10" at 143lbs and a client also female 5'-7" 140lbs both wear a size six. The size six hangs on the 5'-7" client - why? Doesn't make sense at first does it? It's not just about height difference. Similar weight but very different body types. My roommate in college weighed twenty pounds less than myself and yet at the same 5'7" height we shared each other's clothes and looked exactly the same in clothes. She had larger bones and less muscle and very little fat, while I had smaller bones, a lot of muscle and very little fat. She was blessed with a thin body and a love of salt and vinegear chips, I lived at the gym - I guess we all have our crosses to bare - huh?

All bodies are different; all bodies require different types of fuel to function at their highest potential. [Protein vs. carbs] The big debate is crap - some people will become sluggish after eating protein while others will get a rush of energy, same thing with carbohydrates. Are you eating mostly simple or complex carbs? Complex carbs have a percentage of protein while simple can have high amounts of sugar; all of which are great for high quick energy but how does you body use those calories? No calorie is equal either; fats, carbs and protein are burn up different and differently in each body. You could go nuts with all this but you really need to know your body and how it needs to be fed.

The key to keeping your metabolism in line, providing you don't have any underlying health problems, is variety and change in your dietary intake. Eating the same food everyday will slow your metabolism down - it needs a rest and a challenge simply put. If you eat a lot of pasta take a break have some veggies and the same with the reverse. Don't eat the same amount of calories everyday if you are dieting you body will get used it that and their your plateau will kick in.

Bodybuilders know their bodies extremely well and if anyone would be interested in learning what they do to get into competition form I would recommend picking up a few books. If you can still find it I would recommend Rachel McLish or the earlier Cory Everson books. While not all bodybuilders are good to their bodies they seem to be the best at manipulating their metabolic rate to work for them.

Helpful hints: Don't eat fruit past the early afternoon, try and eat your starchy or complex carbs for breakfast and lunch, replace potatoes with sweet potatoes or yams, eat protein for a snack and if you can try to have 4-6 small meals daily all before 6pm.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2000

>>I will agree not to judge women in the first group if they'll agree not to call me anorexic, superficial, or brainwashed, how's that? <<

I haven't seen anyone here call you anorexic, superficial or brainwashed, but maybe I missed those messages, since I haven't read this whole thread.

But from my POV, you do seem to judge anyone who isn't on a "path to thinness", which you say is all about health and not superficial appearances (yet you write a lot more about appearance in all kinds of ways, in your journal and your forum, it seems to me).

Your comparison seems to imply that you think that all people who are "obese" do not get enough exercise, do not watch their fat and/or caloric intake, and are not concerned about their health - in other words, you seem to think they have chosen an "unhealthy lifestyle" as compared to your own - which indeed is a way of judging people negatively compared to yourself, isn't it?

Yet you have no way of knowing how healthy (or unhealthy) any given "obese" person is, compared to yourself, if you don't know them very well on a very personal basis and have not exchanged physical and mental health information with them, right?

Anita's remarks were great on this topic, by the way. And I was just thinking about how all the friends and acquaintances I've had who died in their 30's and 40's were all defintitely not "obese." Some of them had "unhealthy lifestyles," but you wouldn't have known it by looking at them. Some got cancer. Some had heart attacks that no one saw coming. Some were alcoholics or other kinds of substance abusers. But they were all so nice and thin! And now they don't even have to worry about getting older.

None of my "obese" friends or acquaintances has died yet, or is even ill. I'm not *promoting* obesity here, so please don't misunderstand me. I'm just saying, it's foolish to judge people's general health based on their weight. Just like it's dumb to judge people's "sexiness" based on their superficial appearance, how good you think they look in their Victoria's Secret undies, or whatever. Some of the most superficially beautiful people I've known have also been the least interested in sex, and someone who doesn't like sex is not very sexy, no matter how good they look, not from my POV anyway.

Anyway, enough from me on this topic for now.

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2000

Judy, if you had read the entire forum (which at this point is so long that I can't blame anyone for getting lost), you would have seen where I talked about an obese friend of mine who routinely gives me grief about being anorexic and obsessed.

It's very clear to me, from your previous posts and the private mail you've sent me, that you think I'm superficial, silly, annoying, and judgmental. You never get my sense of humor and I seem to get on your nerves. I am very curious as to why you still read my journal and my forum, since you obviously dislike me a great deal.

I would like to respectfully suggest that you find another hobby.

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2000

I've worked for six years as a certified physical trainer and you'd be surprised what people consider as good eating habits. Most common was using eating an entire box of snackwells for lunch as their only meal of the day. Sure they kept well within their caloric guidelines, but...honey, you're not going to lose weight loading your body with all that sugar or, you will, but not in the course of finding yourself with some hair loss and flaking skin from lack of nutrition. I think it's atrocious how in this county we have so many 'fat-free' foods byt more americans are fatter than ever. It basically points out that most americans choose not to educate themselves exactly what it is 'to eat healthy'. It's not only about brown rice and chicken breasts (and quite frankly, who the hell could stay on a diet if they were forced to eat brown rice everyday?). But what I really think it is is that Americans can't seem to make the committment to themselves to take of themselves wholly for the sake of their health and not just for their appearance. If this were the case, than Olestra would have never been created.

I know I feel better physically when I eat better. I think more clearly, my energy levels are higher. While mentally, I find myself more emotionally stable. Which you know, is really quite a nice thing. As for my weight, other than when I got off track after my last pregnancy (which I've recently recovered from the last four months, dropping twenty pounds)it's been a size six (I'm 5'7")for close to ten years which I feel personally quite comfortable at.

But eating 'healthy' is only one part of the eqaution. I also exercise cardiovascularly three or four times a week (approx. 30 minutes not including warm up and cool down), and weight train three. Which I really haven't seen too many posters mention here. Without a regular exercise program, most people will either only see a smaller weight loss with a 'diet' or simply maintain their weight. I'd also like to mention that my exercise program is a 'maintenance' program...generally while trying to lose a significant of weight you'd have to increase your aerobic activity to four-five times a week for about thirty to forty-five minutes with an exercise intensity of 65-80% of your maximal heart-rate...again this doesn't include warm-ups and cool downs. Combine this with a weight-training program of the major muscle groups at least three to four times a week, weight loss will be significant.

By the way, Beth...I applaud you for giving up Tae-bo and going with the Kathy Smith tape (which is super!). Didn't anyone see all those reports floating about last year concerning how dangerous the tae-bo tapes are? Can you say 'rotator cuff injury'?

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

I guess I'll just stick to my Susan Powter Diet--no sugar, no fun, and all the Marlboro's I can smoke in a day!!! By the way-- why does Susan smoke to lose weight?

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

I've never really been on a diet. I was very thin until my mid-twenties. Then sloth, bad eating habits and too much smoking caught up with me. I first tried to lose weight by revamping my eating habits (which used to be quite good). I ate the food pyramid, correct serving sizes and all. That put a stop to the weight gain but after 4 months I had only lost 4 pounds. Not good enough. So I started a rigorous exercise program. Aerobics 5-6 days a week and weight training. I had to keep that up for almost 6 months to lose 30 pounds. My body did not want to give it up. It fought me every step of the way. Now 3+ years later I haven't gained any of the weight back. I follow the 80/20 rule (eat healthy 80 percent of the time) and still try to exercise at least 2-3 hours a week. Most of that tends to be long walks with my dog but he isn't interested in step aerobics so what can you do ? But I would have to say that diets (alone) may not work for some people. I know it didn't for me.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

WOW...weightloss is a touchy subject hey. I was just reading all the messages and there are about 5 good arguements on here. Why dont people just contribute positive stuff, and go by the old saying we were probably all taught when we were younger "If you dont have anything nice to say...dont say anything at all" :) Have a great day everyone.. From a fellow non-dieter(but really isnt everything we do some form of the word "diet")..lol LIFE SUCKS :)

Simone :)

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2001

Man Beth, if you can stand Kathy Smith you might benefit from checking out some Firm tapes . I can't seem to shut up about them, since working out to them 4-6 times a week I lowered my bodyfat percentage from a whooping 54% [practicaly a butter stick with feet] to a more respectable 30% in 7 months and it keeps on lowering, it's like a bloody miracle to me! [insert much hated smiley right ->here<- ]. Beware the cheese factor is ultra high but like I said if you can stand Kathy maybe it won't rub you the wrong way [besides the Firm style is kinda funny in a surreal sort of way].

And oh yeah, diets don't work for me either I've been the *queen* of yoyo dieting since the age of ten and always ended up gaining more after the diet 'ended' than I lost during the deprivation-filled diet days. Regular exercise with weights [which in the Firm tapes is combined with aerobics , a great time-saver!] is the only thing that worked for me...

Best of luck to all the people trying to mend their relationship with their body, whichever way the chose to. It's a tough job sometimes but also critical IMO to the quality of a life worth living .

Denise

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2001

I haven't used those Kathy Smith tapes in ages.

I just wanted to point out, because some people seem to be confused, that most of the posts on this topic are from over a year ago. I'm not sure why it's suddenly popped back up, but this is an old discussion. I would suggest that if you guys want to talk about weight loss or body image or getting in shape, that you start a new topic, because this one is kind of old news. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2001

I like brown rice.

I'm on Phase 1 of my new eating plan, which is: "Cut out processed sugar." I have been doing this since New Year's.

So far I've been doing fairly well. Unfortunately I have become addicted to diet pop, but I'm trying to balance that with drinking more water and skim milk.

Phase 2 will be giving up fast food restaurants. I am not sure yet if there will be a Phase 3, although I am trying to work more vegetables into my diet and eat less meat.

I'm doing this because I'm overweight (I don't know how overweight I am, because no matter what height/weight chart you find, you can also find someone saying that it is inaccurate -- I'm 5'8" and weigh 212 pounds, which is 3 pounds down from my all time high of 215) and my maternal grandmother and two great aunts and paternal grandfather all had adult-onset diabetes, so clearly this is something I have to watch out for.

So far I haven't lost any weight on the no-sugar thing, but that's mostly because I have been doing an unbelievable amount of eating at restaurants, since I know that I am soon giving them up entirely.

I've tried allowing myself to backslide when I've attempted to lose weight before, and it doesn't work for me. I tell myself that it's okay to break my no-sugar rule just once, or to go out to a fast food restaurant just one time, and the next thing you know it's been two weeks and the only food I've eaten has been from McDonald's. (Or whatever.) I exaggerate but little. So I've started thinking of it as similar to alcoholism; once you're off the bad stuff, you're off it for good. Allowing occasional treats seems to work for other people; it doesn't for me. Eating sugar only causes me to crave more sugar, and so I have cut it out entirely. (The processed stuff, that is; I still eat fruit and carbohydrates.)

Anyway, that's my "diet" plan, which is actually more of a lifetime eating plan. It's not complex and I didn't read it in a book, but so far it is working for me.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2001

I've given up hope on the diets I've been on forever. I've finally accepted that my weight is fine, and that my fat rolls are just in the wrong place. They are confused and do not realize that they are supposed to be at chest level. So instead of try to eliminate them, I have decided to let them live their lives in peace, in turn making me a much more pleasant, twinkie fed wife. If your weight is not threatening your health, don't bother dieting. I spent too many years starving myself trying to conform to someone elses size 2 97 lb ideal of beauty. If the doctor says I'm healthy, the twinkies will always be in my cupboard.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001