My boyfriend are thinking about moving in together. Those of you who have taken this step, please discuss the pros and cons for the benefit of those of us who are, so far, sinless. Thanks a bunch in advance! (Specific questions: did you get sick of each other? Was either of you in school, and if so, how did you deal with getting all your work done? Etc.)

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

Answers

Oops. I obviously meant "my boyfriend and I are thinking..." Guess I'm distracted.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

a big step, but common one. i thought my folks would disown me, but i think times are changing to where finances are harder to manage alone. does this make sense? i think the biggest thing is you might get sick of them, so be sure to do plenty of things outside of the home, and away from each other.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

My husband and I lived together before we got married. We were living seperately in California when we had to make a sudden move to North Carolina. The only logical solution, considering we both had little money and little furniture once the roommates took their share, was to live together.

I am very glad that I lived with Steve before we got married. We learned a lot about each other. Of course I got sick of him many times, and he got sick of me as well. But we learned to work things out that annoyed us about each other and found a common ground. We were, however, very committed to each other and to making our relationship work, both are a necessity.

I have to laugh when I hear that expression "living in sin". All of my relatives in California knew that we were living together. No one had a problem with it or seemed to care. They were proud of us for both working and sharing our lives and loving each other. Steve's relatives in North Carolina (read: pretentious bible beaters), were just appalled. I mean horrified that we would even consider it. His mom even suggested that we get a two bedroom so that it would "look better". Stupid.

For us it was great. I know many couples who have lived together for years and are extremely happy.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

We were out of school by the time we moved in together, but I highly recommend cohabitating. My parents weren't thrilled when I announced that I was moving in with my boyfriend, but they went with it, because they had lived in sin when they were younger too, and couldn't really say much. I looked at it as the best way to decide if we were going to make it for the long haul. I would rather find out that I couldn't handle him squeezing the toothpaste tube incorrectly, or drinking milk straight from the carton BEFORE I married him. (Not to say my husband does these things, I just couldn't come up with any authentic examples because he really doesn't ever get on my nerves.)

We were already spending almost every night together, either at his place or mine, so moving in together made things less harried and complicated. Of course, I know plenty of people who found it to be more complicated, and their relationship ended shortly after. It can definitely make or break a couple, but in my opinion, it's best to find out how compatible you are at all times of the day, in all the daily life situations, for long periods of time.

As for school, I would imagine you'd find yourself with more time to concentrate on your work, because you wouldn't have to try and schedule it around times that you want to see each other. I could be wrong, of course, because each couple's situation is unique, but in my experience, shacking up is a good thing.

Best of luck!

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

No offense to those of you who married before living together, but in this day and age, with the high divorce rate and all, I think it's almost a sin NOT to live together before you get married. (I know you didn't say if you were engaged or not, but that's the only reference point I have to speak from.) How else can you know if you're compatible? I know people of the next older generations think this is a horrible idea (the whole free milk and a cow thing), but we're not of their generation, and the rules have changed a lot since they were our age.

It's important whether you're married or "just" living together to keep parts of your lives separate. That's what keeps me & hubby sane and going strong after almost 10 years of living together. He sometimes does his thing, and I do mine. But not to the point where either of you feels excluded. It also helps if you have a very strong friendship, because that is what you'll rely on if the flames of passion die (and they generally do at least calm down after a while!).

Hope this helps at least a little?

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

Thanks for your responses so far, you guys. The comment about school is especially helpful. :) The people who Pamie are very nifty!

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

Major ups and downs, here. Up side: Certain ... things ... can happen with a lot more spontaneity. Cheaper. Less driving. Lots more time together. Less prep time for outings.

Downs: Might not be important, but you won't be able to depend on being alone again, so if you want some privacy, you'll have to go somewhere else or boot him out for the night. You also lose major, huge chunks of the Mystery and Romance, unless you've been practically living together already. This isn't necessarily a down, actually, more of an Important Safety Tip. If you're not comfortable with the idea that your bf is a human being, this could be a really bad idea.

My brother married a girl he met while going to college in New York. She was from Texas. My parents took another brother and I aside at the wedding and very carefully told us that we weren't supposed to tell anybody that the happy couple had been living together for two years; her parents didn't know and wouldn't have liked it if they had known. Granted, this was way back in the 80's...

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

Dale and I did something you're not supposed to do, which was move in together at the start of our relationship. I guess it worked out well enough, since that was three years ago, and we married last year.

You can definately run into the "I see you all the damn time; get away from me!" problems, but that happens after marriage too. Living together also lets you learn all about the other person's icky habits, so you can decide whether to run screaming or to accept them.

I'm very glad that Dale and I lived together before we married. It probably spared us both a lot of surprises.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

I don't know if this is going to sound more preachy or world-weary. It is generally a hell of a lot more practical to live together - split the rent and bills with someone who's going to be around most of the time anyway.

But...from my own personal experience, cohabitation and marriage have little to do with each other. Literally. I've lived with two fiances; I'm not married. In retrospect, I see that I lived with them mostly out of practicality, but also because I was in no hurry to actually marry them. I was happy to play house, but I wasn't willing to go so far as to plan on eternity. And when you're living together...what's the hurry, right? You've got most of the benefits, less of the hassle. The thing is, after a while, that attitude starts to grate on the relationship. Progress isn't as much of a priority. The relationship is no longer something you have to be mindful of in order for it to continue to exist, and I think it suffers from that, and it gets buried in paying the bills and the rent and can't he EVER pick his damn TOWELS up off the FLOOR???

This time around, I've decided there won't be any living together. Yes, I spend the night at his place occasionally, and there are definitely days when I sure would love to give up that 25-minute drive across town, but this has been the first time I've been in a relationship where we treat the relationship and each other like precious, important things that shouldn't ever be handled harshly or taken for granted. Living together can be really wonderful, but it can also be very hard, and I'm not going to subject the relationship to that until we've promised in front of God and everybody that we're not going to walk away, no matter how tight money gets or how deep the pile of towels on the bathroom floor.

For what it's worth, my attitude is, in part, colored by the fact that he is in school and I am not. He works full-time as well. He needs the time, what little he has left over, to get his schoolwork done, without the additional distraction of me watching TV or writing or just being there. Yes, if we lived together, he might not need to work so much - but then I'm working my ass off to pay for life in general and his private college tuition and the cars and the insurance and...constant money woes and resentment are hell on a relationship, and we've not yet made any promises to stick around for better or worse.

If living together were the only way we could be together, you bet I'd change my tune in an instant. The relationship, I think, would fare slightly better if we were living together than if we were living in different cites/states/countries.

I'm not at all suggesting it'll never work out if you live together, but if you do, make sure the relationship gets treated with the respect it deserves. It is way too easy to let it get lost in the shuffle.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2000

Barry and I moved in together right at the start of our relationship, too, and we just got married. I don't think there's really a set answer, like you should definitely live together before you get married, or you never should. It depends entirely on the couple. We had tension to start with, because we were still getting to know each other, and because we are both fairly private people. We just had to learn to give each other enough space, while still spending enough time together. It isn't easy, by any means. By I'm very glad we did live together. I heard some of my family members weren't thrilled, but they never said anything to me about it, so...

Oh, and I'm in school and I work full-time. Getting work done is not a problem because Barry knows when I have work to do, I have to do it. He's very supportive of my being in school, so he helps out as much as he can -- if he knows I have studying to do, he'll go out for a few hours to give me some quiet. Stuff like that. So it works.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I've only officially shared a place with one man and that is the one I'm marrying this fall. We bought a house together (skip the apartments and trailers and get really involved!!) within five months of meeting and being involved. That is fast and I wouldn't recommend it for everyone but for some reason I knew this was right and long-term. Friends and family were shocked. It's funny to think how much more I know him today than I did when we signed papers for the house. Luckily we're going strong and our lack of total knowledge of each other before co-habitating hasn't proven damaging. I think about two other men I was previously involved with (not simultaneously!) and how we talked about living together and how fortunate it is that we didn't since those turned out to be bad relationships. These breakups were messy enough with me trying to collect my things in paperbags from their apartments and wondering if they'd want to reclaim their junk left at mine! My advice: don't move in together because your lease is expiring or you decide to move to the same city as someone you're dating and it's more convenient to shackup than find your own space, or because you want to save money, or because all your friends are living with their lovers, or etc. . . . Move in together because you're committed to one another and see a long-term future (WHICH YOU'VE DISCUSSED THOROUGHLY-not just hinted at or mentioned!!). And, as with any roommate, have a clear understanding of how much each pays for rent, utilities and groceries; divide up the household tasks; and if animals are involved, make sure you LIKE his pet snake and don't mind having it watch TV with you, and that he LIKES your cat enough to indulge its habit of sleeping with you. Others have said but I'll just emphasize that the mystery and nicety period is over in sharing a space. You're going to hear amazing belches and farts, and he's going to witness you changing tampons and popping zits. (Oh, don't forget snoring!!!) You're going to disagree about what TV shows to tape, family members' intentions, and who's welcome to hang out at your place. But what keeps you going is that there's that sweet, friendly, loving face to greet you when you wake up and help you fall asleep. It's a constant sleepover with your best friend! -Linda

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

i have to agree with a few things that were said...i think anyone choosing NOT to 'live in sin' is c r a z y ! you can look at is as practice...essentially, living in sin is tha same as being married, w/out the papers.

i've been living with my current b/friend for about a year and a half...before that, i lived by myself and he at home...and before that, i lived with a b/friend. the first time, it was for practical reasons - we couldn't swing living on our own, so we shacked up together to save some $$$...what it didn't save, was my sanity. he drove me nuts! i suppose he drove me mad before we moved in together, but after living with him, i realized soon enough why, after 5 years, we weren't even TALKING about marriage. we couldn't stand oneanother - as b/friend-g/friend.

my current situation was decided upon out of love. we both new that 'the search was over'...that we wanted to spend our lives with eachother...so we took the next step in our relationship - after dating for a year and a half - and moved in.

we have fun. we argue about my disinterest in cleaning and doing dishes...and his constant need to workworkwork. but in the end, we enjoy it. we like coming home to oneanother and sharing a bed and showering together and all that good stuff that you love about those few nights a week that you might decide to sleep over his house for convenience.

i guess it also helps that we have a strong relationship - lots of communication. we talked about moving in together for about a year before we finally did...pros, cons...how the $$$ would be handled, why we were moving in. definetly DO NOT move in for the wrong reasons - you'll know what they are when you find yourself making excuses for them.

most of all? enjoy the time, grow and learn.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Been there, done that. And for me personally - I don't think I'll ever do it again. I read somewhere (OK - I can't remember the name of the book or the author - sue me)that most couples that live together before marriage divorce at a higher rate and earlier than couples that didn't live together.

I don't see living together as the same as being "marriage w/o the papers".

If your relationship is strong enough and committed enough, then you don't need a break in period to see if you like each other.

When I did it we were both still in school, and even though we had agreed on how to split everything up in terms of rent, trash, dishes, etc. It just didn't turn out like we thought. When we started I thought we were practicing for marriage. At the end, the only real reason we were still living together was because we were both too scared to get out and try to make it financially on our own.

Even if I hadn't been living with him I would have learned what I needed to know about him - he's a pig (look at the way his dorm room was always kept), he watches too much TV (the damn thing was always on), and he had no work ethic.

Some people have had a lot of luck and seem to have benefited from it. Personally, I didn't, and deep down still feel badly about the whole thing. Not quite quilt ridden for religious reasons since I not all that religious, but still just "off". Hope that made sense to some of you.

My advice is to think long and hard about it and never let yourself get into a position where you couldn't move out and live on your own at a moments notice.

Just my 2 cents worth of rambling.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Statistics aside, I have no intention of marrying or, consequently, divorcing. BUt my boyfriend and I have been living together for two years now, and I can't imagine marrying someone without seeing if you can live with them first. We're happy and enjoy each other's company, and I'm glad we stayed together, since Fate decreed that we should meet. (we never planned on living together. He was just supposed to stay with my roommate and I until he found his own place.)

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I'm a full time student right now, although this is my last year. My partner and I have lived together, just he and I for two years now, we've been together for almost 7. The school part can be tricky at times, I have my own 'office' in our apartment and I definitely need it. I can't work very well when he's around, he's just more fun than school work. And, I also hate working at the library. So, I would really recommend having a place where you can close a door and be alone to work, otherwise there are just too many other fun things to do!

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I think the idea that 'living in sin' as a practice run for compatibility is stupid. I think there are plenty of other ways to tell if you're compatible or not. Having said that, I lived with my boyfriend for a year before getting married. We were already engaged and very committed to each other. It wasn't a 'test-run' of anything. And, frankly, I wouldn't encourage anyone to give up their independence before it's totally necessary. I enjoyed having a space of my own. My own mess, my own cooking, my own quiet space where I got to watch what I wanted on teevee. I was very ready to move in with him when I did, and circumstances dictated that but every now and then I pine for my own place.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

My b/f and I moved in together in August. We haven't killed each other yet. It was discussed, but not like will we, but how we were going to handle it. We added the extra hassle of 2 additional roomates to cut costs and add space. That I would not suggest. I'm in my last year of school, he's in his 2nd year. I don't think that my work has suffered at all.
I would suggest some private space with a firm must knock first rule. As it is I go to the laundramat to get away.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Whether you should move in together depends completely on the two of you. Try to separate out what you think people are "supposed" to do and figure out what y'all actually _want_ to do. Here are some issues to consider:

*What will you do if it doesn't work out? *How will you handle the snoopiness of any friends and relatives who think it's sinful? *How much privacy do you think you'll need? *How will your expectations of each other change once you've moved in? What do you expect from a live-in love that you don't expect from a lover? *How will your expectations change again if you later get married? *Obviously, how will the finances be done? Whose name will the bills be in? Will you each get your own room? *How will you schedule time together? *How much will you mix and match your possessions, or how separate do you want to keep them, just in case?

Moving in with someone is a great idea for me for many reasons. I love having a housemate. I only go out with guys that I would like being with 24-7 and wouldn't get sick of. My break-ups always go pretty smoothly, and I always stay friends, so I could always work out a way to handle breaking up AND having to move. I only move in with a guy when one of us is practically living at the other person's place anyway (6 or 7 nights a week). Now, that doesn't mean that it would be alright with any guy.

Here's some good reasons not to move in with somebody. One of you worries that a relationship with one's parents would be changed forever and for the worse. One person thinks it's wrong. One person thinks that moving in together is serious and implies a great commitment, and the other one doesn't. One of you is moving into the other one's place, and either the previous resident would feel attacked or the new resident would feel like it wasn't really their place. You both have a lot of stuff that won't fit in one place, but you're not committed enough to get rid of the excess.

I personally think that for me, moving in together is a good test of marriage and does make me feel more comfortable about committing myself forever to one person. On the other hand, there's something powerful to be said for committing first. You have that extra incentive to make things work out if you've already committed to do so. It's like the idea that if you get married knowing that you can get a divorce later if you want, you may not be as committed. And if you already know the other person loves you enough to want you the rest of y'all's lives no matter what, that should make it easier to work things out.

Remember that each person has weird idiosyncracies. Like does one person think that people should always do their own laundry? Does one person think that whoever cooks, the other one should do dishes? Does someone think that whoever earns less should do more housework? Everyone has a few strong irrational desires--can y'all accommodate each others?

I think moving in together is a big step like deciding to go out with someone seriously. You are raising expectations, you are making some sort of statement to the outside world, and you are risking having to really hurt someone and/or get hurt if it doesn't work out. Think about how it is that you decide whether to date someone seriously and how you would decide whether to marry someone, and those thought processes could help you figure out what process you want to use in this situation.

I think if you or the other person already suspects that the relationship might not work out, you will only complicate matters by living together. If it seems right but sounds bad, it's probably right. If you want to please the person but it feels wrong, it's probably wrong. If you've noticed the other person telling you something you don't want to hear, pay double-close attention to it. People don't like to tell others what they don't want to hear, so you know you've latched on to a fact there. Don't dismiss these.

I suppose that's enough spewing.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Regarding that study about couples who live together before marriage being more likely to divorce, I read an article that said that if you corrected for religious and cultural beliefs that strongly discouraged divorce, the results were very different. In other words, people who don't live together before marriage are more likely to have strong beliefs about the sanctity of marriage, and to have religious or cultural opposition to divorce. It's not some magic formula -- if you live together, you are more likely to get divorced. It's more like, if you think of marriage as more of a social contract and less of a sacred commitment, then you're probably more likely to be willing to live together without being married, and you're more likely to call it quits if things aren't working out.

I've lived with my boyfriend for about four and a half years. We had some rough spots, but at this point he's the best roommate I've ever had. I think we would have had fewer rough spots if he hadn't moved directly from his parents' house to mine. Everyone needs some time to live alone, or to live with a bunch of same sex roommates who get on your nerves and make you appreciate your future live in lover. (Jeremy wouldn't get nearly so annoyed with my messy kitchen habits and my tendency to drink the last of the milk if he'd ever had a REALLY bad roommate.)

After about a year of living together, however, we did move into separate rooms. It was during a fight, but after we made up neither of us wanted to move back. I don't think we could share a room at this point. We have different standards of cleanliness, and different tastes, and different levels of tolerance for things like dogs and cats on the bed. And you know, I had to share a room with my little brother for a couple of years when I was a kid, and then I had roommates (in the same bedroom) all through college. I finally got my own room when I was twenty one; why in the hell would I want to give that up now?

I can't imagine not living with him, though. I wouldn't want my own place. I love living with someone. I just love having him one room away.

As for school, he's still in school and I work at home a lot. Since we share a computer room, we have some clashes over things like music and talking. Translation: I talk too much when he's trying to work, and he plays horrible music too damn loud. We fight more about that than just about anything now. He finally cleared off a space in his room for doing his homework, so he can work in there and I don't have to listen to $*&#*$#&* Danzig all the time.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Here's one no one has addressed: living with someone before you get married when you have a child. I was married for 14 years, have been divorced for 5 and have a 12 year old daughter. I have a very sweet man in my life who I only get to spend the night with every other weekend. Although my ex and I lived together before we got married, I didn't have a clue as to the kind of creep he was. Now that I have a child, I don't think it's fair to experiment with her life by moving her into a new life with someone I'm not yet prepared to marry. Her father has lived with a woman for 3 years and when they fight, my daughter is afraid she'll lose her "step-mother" if she moves out. I would love to spend more time with my honey, but until we get to the marriage stage of the relationship, I don't think we will live together. Which is kind of too bad because he's a slob (really bad) and it's going to take some adjustment on a large scale for us to balance our living styles. But I think if you're married, you're compelled to figure it out. Anybody have anything to offer??

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Joy, major kudos to you for that discipline. I was the only child of a single mom, and it would've freaked me out to no end if a man had moved in with us without marrying her. I wholeheartedly think that's the right decision in that case.

That said, my husband and I did *not* live together. We both sort of wanted to (mostly for expense purposes), but my family absolutely freaked out. It meant too much to me what they thought to go through with it, so we waited the six months until we were married. It put a tremendous strain on our relationship for a while, because Kevin couldn't understand why I didn't love him enough to ignore what my family thought. But my grandparents practically raised me, and granted, their opinion was too old-fashioned and didn't line up with mine -- however, it wasn't worth it to cause friction there. I have the rest of my life to live with my husband.

So what happens when one person really wants to cohabitate and the other doesn't? Survive that dilemma, and I think the marriage stands a powerful chance.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I lived with my husband for 3 1/2 years before we got married. We'll have been together for 8 years this year. Both of us were in our last year of college when we took the plunge. We both graduated with honors, so I guess it was just a matter of prioritizing! Because we both worked in addition to going to school, we weren't always home at the same time. We never got sick of each other. He was then and still is now the best roommate I've ever had!!

As for why to do it - I know of people who didn't live together before they got married and discovered that they couldn't stand each other's living habits once in the same place. Divorce isn't cheap, and I wouldn't want to divorce someone because I couldn't stand how he left his clothes all over the house or something like that. I say go for it.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

The lack of male response to this question is pretty fascinating.

The female habit of nesting is one that is intrensically very important to us, if not wholly biological. I think, generally, that is why we get married. Not necessarily to have children, but to secure a place bring them when we do.

The current state of affairs is one in which "marriage" no longer guarantees that kind of security. For many of us, the word itself connotes fear and confusion. We watched our parents, who watched their parents, initiate the divorce cycle; and it's not pretty.

Cohabitation before marriage has become a survival strategy. It is really the only way to know for sure whether or not the relationship will be constructive. How will this partner contribute to and better this nest, the home, you are building?

When two people are incompatible, dynamically, problems will manifest where they intersect : wherever they spend time together. A lot of these arguments listed (regarding money and household chores) have, in my experience, actually represented important philosophical differences.

It's important to remember that any two people will have different life habits and make different life choices. The key is find a partner whose pattern of living meshes well with your own.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

My husbands family absolutely did not want us living together. But it was the best choice for us and we moved in anyway. And to tell you the truth, I don't know if we would be married today if he had let his families opinions dictate his life. If he had I would have feared that my wants, needs and desires would always come second to his families. For me that would not have been a good thing.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I understand that argument, and had my family tried to say they didn't want me to marry Kevin, the story would've been entirely different. And they didn't *forbid* me to move in with him either, but it would've been unnecessarily hurtful to them. (We were already engaged, and basically had to wait only a few months.)

I would've liked the warm-up period at the time; but in retrospect, I don't feel I lost anything by waiting until we were married to live together.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

I lived with three men before I got married to a fourth one. One was for three years while I was in college; the second was in grad school and for four years thereafter (we were together for seven years); the third was the father of my daughter (we were together for six years, until his health deteriorated to the point that he had to move back in with his parents for full-time care). My current husband is not a US citizen, so he came into the US on a fiance visa just two weeks before we got married -- which qualifies more as "staying at my place" than cohabiting! We've been married for seven years now.

My feelings on the question are very mixed. Under the same circumstances I'd cohabit again, because it was fun. All the fun parts of playing house, with just a little advantage of everyone "playing nice" because, if you don't, the other person is free to leave. In that total of sixteen years of cohabitation I don't think we ever had a real argument. But that lack of permanance can be gutwrenching too. When my seven-year partner left, he called me at work to tell me that he'd rented a U-Haul and packed that day, and would be gone when I came home. He left me for a woman who wanted to marry him, because all those years of temporary cohabitation had left him convinced that I didn't want him forever. Yes, even a husband can be an emotional coward, but the formalities of divorce provide at least a chance to realize what's happening. And being left after that many years is just as traumatic without the "piece of paper" as with it.

On the other hand, I barely knew my husband when I married him. All the deep knowledge that you get from day to day living was completely absent. We're still married, but it's mainly because marriage itself is a stabilizing thing for both of us. If we weren't married we would have walked away from each other when things got tough, and I think (on the good days I think) we'd both be poorer for it.

As for things like schoolwork and the like... well, if the reason you want to move in together is so you can do the wild-mink thing all day and night, nope, you won't get your schoolwork done. But cohabiting or married, for your whole life you'll have stuff that needs doing -- work, schoolwork, child care -- so you'll eventually have to learn to balance priorities. I found having someone to study with an advantage, rather than the other way around. And I co-habited through a joint law degree/master's program (while he was getting an MBA), so there was plenty of studying getting done!

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

Guy response! Guy response!

Okay, I can guarantee that this will not help whatsoever, but I just love telling this story, so bear with me.

My girlfriend of 1 1/2 years and I moved in together in September of 1999. By Christmas, we had broken up.

However, we still live together - we even sleep in the same bed. Our relationship is much better now that we're not boyfriend and girlfriend. And yes, we still have privileges.

Naturally, this confuses most people.

What I've found is that living with someone - whether it's a roommate, a partner, or a parent - brings a magnifying glass to that relationship. In the case of my ex and I, it showed quite clearly that while we're great friends, we're a lousy couple. Fortunately, we can both deal with that...

When moving in with a *friend, just ask yourself: do I get along with him/her as a person and a friend? If you can't deal with each other on a level other than wuvvy-duvvy nubness, then don't bother. Of course, you can discover this about each other, but if you don't think there's potential there, forget it. Hell, I'd end the relationship there, but that's me.

Also, regarding the conveyour belt of "shacking up" towards the altar: Living together doesn't seem like much of Marraige Prep 101 to me. Marraige is a total rewriting of yourself and your life. Living together is sampling the goods with a commitment.

And always remember this practical maxim: Love never lasts as long as the lease.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

My husband and I lived together for about a year after we got engaged before the wedding. For us, it was perfect. His family has a long history of divorce, and he wanted to be very sure about us before he made it permanant. Plus, we were moving to a new place to start grad school and financially it was a good idea. I disagree with most of the objections to "living in sin". The whole milk/cow thing I think is sort of disgusting. The implication is that the only reason a man would want to marry you is for sex! My parents swore that living together would be nothing like being married, and to be honest I think they're wrong. The ceremony was wonderful, and I certainly felt something change, but day to day our life is the same. I think anybody serious enough to talk about lifelong committments needs to be sure they're compatible.

To answer the other half of your question, since we were both taking classes at that point: We didn't have much of a problem. We took a lot of the same classes, so we studied together for those. I do recommend having some space of your own. We had space at school, and with a two bedroom apartment one of us could work in the computer room and one at the kitchen table. All the other advice about finance arrangements and housework arrangements given above is good stuff. Most of our fights the first year were about money and housework.

Good luck!

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

boring man response. my wife and i moved in together during our engagement. it was the practical thing to do. it worked out and so has the marriage. your mileage may vary.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

My wife and I lived together for almost a year before we got married.

We had begun seeing each other during her last semester of college and she stayed around during the summer, taking a couple extra courses and spending time with me, but then she went off to the Big Apple to take a job. We each took turns visiting each other on weekends (about a two hundred mile trip each way) except those weekends when my son and I would visit my parents. (I had been previously married and had a son who was around nine years old at the time I'm talking about.) By the time Spring came, we were sick of the driving and talked about me moving down to the NY suburbs where she lived. I interviewed at a few places and had some good possibilities but when we looked into the cost of housing and the hassles of commuting, etc. we decided it would make more sense for her to move back upstate. Either way, we were planning on living together, no discussion of marriage.

So she moved in with me in early summer and by winter time we were seriously discussing marriage. We got married in June... and that was June of 1979 and here we are, happily married with a couple of teenaged kids.

Good luck whatever you decide.
Jim

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

My boyfriend and I have been living together for about a month and a half now, along with another couple. So I'm not an *expert*, and I haven't been through everything yet. But so far, it's been lovely; it's great to wake up in the morning and see his (granted, rather scrufflyish, but still... ;) face, and to know that he'll be there to talk to at night. We were already spending all of our time together, anyway. And it helps rent-wise. Really a lot. The only bad thing is that, at times, it's hard to find time for yourself, because there's always someone else around. And, if you're ever feeling non- peoplish, that could suck. But... I don't know, it's just cool. I like this domestic life. And, okay, that prob'ly didn't help too much... My biggest problem is planning meals. It's tricky when you're not just cooking for yourself...

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

okay, today marks our two month anniversary of married bliss. i can honestly say, neither onne of us feels much different being married, than when we lived together. now, though, we own more stuff.

i don't think that there can be a blanket "this works, this won't" when it comes to relationships. no one can ever be in your place or have your experiences to predict how live will end up. did i think i was going to marry the guy whom i pretended to be a twin german with when we were 13? no. am i glad i did? yes. :)

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

There've been several people who've posted about living together not being different from marriage, so I have to give the other side of the story. I lived with my ex for two-and-a-half years before we married (actually, we lived together a year before we were engaged). Our relationship was great. Within six months of the marriage, he started to change - he became moody, uncommunicative, sullen and generally unpleasant to be around. Nothing I could do or say made any difference. Not long after our first anniversary, he told me he'd been to see a lawyer. The divorce was final before our second anniversary.
Bottom line - some people do not handle the realities of marriage well, and living together beforehand may not tell you that. There are legal, social and emotional differences between the single and married states, and not everyone can handle them. This is all just one woman's experience - you have to figure out your own personalities and relationships.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

i agree with tracey's posting above. everyone's situation is different and it's really up to the couple to make a decision and figure out what living arrangement works best for them.

as for myself, my husband and i did not live together prior to our marriage. in a lot of ways, i'm thankful for that. sure, we see a lot of each other now, but it's at the end of the day ... we're tired, hungry, cranky, etc. ... or at the beginning of it ... we're sleepy, running late, trying to get to work, etc. a full day's work and other activities keep us on the go most of the week.

when we weren't living together, we had to set aside time to see each other and spend quality time together, at reasonable hours. after six months of marriage, it seems you STILL have to do that and you're living together, at all hours and they're not always reasonable.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

I think that living together is great for a couple that wants to spend time together but are not planning to get married. When I was younger I didn't want to get married, but living with someone was certainly an option, and one I have tried on two occasions. I didn't see either of these moves as a trial marriage, but as a matter of convenience. Both times I kept my own house, my own car, paid my own bills but moved into his house because we wanted to be together and all the driving was getting ridiculous! If you want to marry him, I would suggest that you not move in with him, however if you see this as a relationship that suits you now, not forever, go ahead...but have a co-habitation agreement written up first. Now that I have met someone that I do want to marry I won't 'practice' first by moving in with him. If we get married I will sell my house and move in with him and it will be a *permanent* change. I know we are right for each other and there is no need for me to hedge my bets. Living with Mr RightNow is nothing at all like wanting to marry Mr Right.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

i don't want this to be interpreted as me judging anyone, i'm in no position to do that. i've done more than my fair share of sinning, for sure.
i would never "shack up" with someone - not because of fear that the relationship wouldn't work or because i want my freedom (those are both factors, but not the reason). i wouldn't do it because the bible says it's wrong.
i agree with "thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, lie, covet or take other gods", and my religion is not cafeteria-style. it's a package deal.
i guess the real issue, for me, is that i'm an absolutist when it comes to morality. i don't believe that life is all about "values" and "feelings", there are concrete laws, and things that bind. it's not a very popular view, even within a lot of the church, but it's one that makes a lot of sense to me.
:)


-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Which passage of the Bible says it is wrong? I would like to read what the people who wrote the Bible (not God or Jesus--an important distinction) had to say about it. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Dear Tiffany, You claim that your "religion is not cafeteria-style. it's a package deal." Are you aware that in the Revised Standard version of the Bible, comparing religion to public eateries is a sin punishable by bubonic plague? (Though, admittedly, in the King James version, it's actually translated as "boustrophedonic plaque" - go figure). And you don't even want to KNOW what it says in the Book of Mormon. Of course, I can't talk either - I have a penchant for speaking in quasi- categorical comestibles-related religious metaphorical paradox myself. Still, I just thought you might want to keep consistent. Thanks!

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

If there's anything I've learned, it's that privacy and independance are the most important things you can maintain in a relationship.

Last spring I broke up with my live-in bf of two years. After we'd moved in together (after doing long-distance for a year), he became more and more possessive and dictatorial. He was in school, I was out of school and working. He had some outdated ideas about cooking and cleaning. There was a lot more to our problems, but I'm really glad I didn't marry him without finding these things out.

When I moved out, it was a terrible experience. I couldn't even tell him that I was leaving for fear he'd go apeshit. I had to get several friends over one morning while he was at school to move me out as fast as possible, and I stayed with a friend for a month or so until I got my feet under me again. I couldn't even tell him where I had gone.

If I'd had my own place, maintained my own savings, it would have gone a lot better. I don't think I'll be moving in with someone again, at least not without my own room (not neccessarily a bedroom... just a place that's MINE). No matter what, from now on I'm making sure I can support myself if things go awry.

I think that's important no matter *what* the status of your relationship. Make sure you can look after yourself. You're the one who can do it best.

Thetis The Clockworks

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

p.s. Tiffany - just kidding, of course. All in good fun.

p.p.s. Clementine - do the words "hell in a handbasket" mean anything to you?

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

When two people move in together without getting married it always makes me kind of sad. They want to be physically together so they can fornicate, but they don't love each other enough to make a commitment. Sometimes the reason given is to save money, and that makes me even sadder, because you can't buy love.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Wow. You must be one sad guy.

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

Oh Joe. I keep re-reading your post. The fact that you used the word 'fornicate' is enough to make me giggle.

So many things could be said here. Let's settle with this: Don't pass judgment on others. You haven't walked in their shoes.

Fornicate. Really.

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

clementine - there's nowhere in the Bible that actually says "thou shalt not move in with your boyfriend and have sex outside of marriage"...
the problem is that in the Bible, sex is always used in the context of morality, and even though i might like it if it did - my Bible does not tell me specifically how to deal with every moral issue that comes my way. there are moral laws, absolute laws, that dictate moral behaviour, but there isn't a list of everything i might ever do wrong, and a reason not to do it.
i consider sex outside of marriage adultery, and so there is a very specific verse that says it's wrong, but i guess that's a matter of interpretation.
the fact is that man and woman were made to be together, and in the right context there is nothing wrong with lust, within the marriage bed there are no little nit-picky rules.
the marriage bed is sacred, the body is sacred, and sex is not a toy... (much contrary to what we seem to be bombarded with)
i wouldn't do it because of the morality my God has taught me. you have to look at your own morality, and you'd have to do a study of the things that are taught if you really want to understand it. the fact is that i don't really understand it at this point, i'm a young christian, an infant in the faith.
i should not have been so quick to say that the "bible says it's wrong", because when i went and looked for evidence, it wasn't there. the Bible doesn't deal with every specific situation, it deals in generalities. at the core is a moral God and a moral law, and a demand for moral behaviour.
it was my fault for so glibly throwing that in there, but the foundation of that statement remains the same. i wouldn't do it because of my faith.

and i'm not afraid of the bubonic plague, i'm actually more scared of cafeteria food.


-- Anonymous, February 06, 2000

Mike and I have lived together for nearly 3 years with my son. We are expecting our daughter to be born in April. We won't actually be getting married until next year, though.

Mike had been my friend for 3 years before we got together and we were and are deeply in love and committed to one another. After we'd been *an item* for just a couple of weeks, it just made sense because he was spending all his time over with us anyhow and we could save the money to use it for other things. I'm not usually an instant decision person, but it was so obviously right between us.

Mike is in school full-time and works part-time. I work full-time. Basically, he figures out his scholastic schedule and work schedule and I work out the life schedule (work, daycare, soccer team for the 6 year old) based on that. We both work on the premise that him finishing his engineering degree is the most important goal for both of us right now, so we arrange household duties and childcare around his test and assignment schedules. He schedules time into his school schedule to work on homework. I cover house stuff he can't do during the week and he does stuff for me on the weekends, when he has more time.

We communicate clearly with each other. We work as a team.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

I'm really happy for people who believe in marriage and who are happy with their choices. That's great. But I find it pretty offensive when people suggest that folks who live together without being married aren't actually in love or haven't made a serious commitment. Marriage is a religious institution, and some people don't share those religious values. You shouldn't make assumptions about someone else's situation, because their beliefs might be entirely different from your own.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

i'm assuming that beth's comment was directed to me, if i'm wrong i'm sorry.
i know that values differ, i never said that my way is the only way to live, and i'm not making judgements about anybody's behaviour. it's no less judgemental to condemn my beliefs than it would be for me to condemn yours, and while "religion" may seem stupid, everybody has a theology.
all i did was answer a question, and in retrospect i did it rather badly. i'm new at this. i've never been in a serious debate about my faith, i've never had the opportunity to seriously discuss my beliefs or give a good reason for them (there are many, knowing and articulating are different things though)
i probably come across as a twit, but that's not how i mean to sound.
you are entirely entitled to your beliefs and to your values and to your lifestyle... even if it is something to be judged, i'm not the one who can do the judging. but just as it's fine to say "do it because it will make you closer" "do it because it is good" "don't do it because you lose your autonomy" - i can say "don't do it because most of the time it's immoral"
and i'm perfectly aware that there are situations where marriage isn't an option, or where the choice is justified... i'm not passing judgement or trying to make anyone feel bad about how they live, but i am expressing my belief.


-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

Actually I was responding to Big Joe, and I don't think I condemned your beliefs. I disagree with them, but that's my right. I also disagree with the comment that "everyone has a theology." No, not everyone does, and you shouldn't assume that they do.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Hmmm..

This whole religous aspect thing always gets so twisted.

The thing is, nowhere in the Bible does it say you need to get married to have sex. The whole Sodom thing was that they all rejected God, so it was a 'godless' place. God didn't destroy it because they were fornicating. Although, perhaps the wife-swapping thing got to him (or her).

Uh.. adultury is not sex out of marrage. It is sex while in marrage, but not with the person you're married to. Sex out of marrage has nothing to do with adultury. And that's only the 'do not covet' deal going on.

The bible does push that love should be the main context behind sex. It doesn't require marrage, because two people in love can profess their devotion to eachother and technically be united under God that way.

Religions have latched onto pre-marital sex as an issue because of social reasons. Disease was even more out of control than it is now, so an easy way to control it, without the necessary medical know-how was abstinence. They also didn't want children being born and possibly not being in the religous fold. Because we all know that when you get married in a church, they make you take another vow to raise your children in the religion.

It's all about propagating the belief, to make sure that it grows and continues to control the lives of people. I think they do it to make a buck. I suppose some believe they are being altruistic. Whatever.

Shack up, make happy monkey love. Such is the way of the world. And the world is good.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Rich: You're the man.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Big Joe (or should I say Big Mike........??????????)

Do you actually believe what you write? Or do you just like to stir the pot? I feel it is the latter. Fornicate? Please. Almost as bad as that "massive cock" comment you made on the swimsuit thread.

Bite me.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

The bible does push that love should be the main context behind sex.

??? Really ???

I thought the main context of sex in the Bible was that every sperm is sacred. If you masturbate, and any sperm hits ground (as opposed to womb), you go to Hell.

Clementine, every relationship, has a life of its own. It has a beginning, a middle, and if it has a beginning, it also must have an end. All that is required, for you, while you are in this relationship, is that it should be eternal. Moving in with this guy will either contribute to this, or it won't. If it doesn't, and your just moving in with him to save money, or so your girlfriends won't think that you're in an unstable relationship, I wouldn't want to be you or him.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Mike,

You know full well that passage in the Bible was all about definance of God, not the actual act of masterbation.

http://www.inferiority.com

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

My understanding of the Bible is that the sex is only acceptible for the act of procreation.

Mis, your Big Mike........?????????? comment is vague. Was there something you wanted to say to me?

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

...although, eternal damnation doesn't really come into play in the Old Testament...

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

I also disagree with the comment that "everyone has a theology." No, not everyone does, and you shouldn't assume that they do.

and as far as I know everyone does have a theology. Even if you're an atheist, then your whole life revolves at least around filling your stomach so many times a day, and the values that correspond with that.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

"Theology" refers to the study or formulation of religious doctrine or beliefs, so by definition an atheist would not, in fact, have a theology.

If your life revolves around food, sex, Pokemon or whatever, you may have your own rituals, but not necessarily a theology.

--mike

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

My American Heritage dictionary:

theology n. the study of the nature of God and religious truth.

An atheist maintains that there is no God. If you adopt the point of view that the nature of God is that there is no God, whatever you studied to come to that conclusion is theology.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

My husband and I moved in together after knowing each other 8 months. At the time we couldn't get married because legally he was still female (yeah we are going to hell -- living in sin or not). We have now been married for a year. We never get sick of each other. I actually went on a week trip with a friend and had a harder time NOT being with my husband than I thought I would. I think no matter which steps you take relationships all need the same things. You have to have similar goals, you have to good friends and you have to work at it. I think as long as you are both clear on what your committment is and what moving in together means to both of you, go for it. Remember that Paul McCartney and his wife spent a total of something like 3 nights apart. I don't think living together before you get married makes a difference. If it's going to work -- it's going to work.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Hey Mike -
What about the people who just don't particularly care if there's a god, and don't think about it at all?

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

In the interest of staying the hell away from a religious argument about living together before marriage (an angle I'm so sick of I could scream) -- I'm going to turn to the original question.

Clemetine, I assume that because you are considering living together, you and your boyfriend have no religious qualms about the "morality" of such an arrangement. So it isn't an issue. The only time it would be an issue is if you personally had doubts of that sort and were seeking guidance. As it stands, any argument against living together based on religious belief is just a soapbox for someone to express their personal theology, rather than answer the question as best for you.

So, living together. I've lived with my (now fiance) for 2 years. We were friends in college, lost touch, got back in touch, started a relationship, and moved in together. We're in NYC, so any discussion about living together in this real estate market has some economic/practical basis. But the main reason was that we were sick in love, and he's the only person I've ever wanted to live with.

Yes, I have lived alone, and I have lived with roommates, and I have lived with housemates. He was the only boyfriend of mine with whom I didn't feel living together would prove to be an invasion of my space and test the limits of our relationship. Frankly, I was against living together, because I thought I would end up hating anyone who was around me that much. And at that point, I probably would have.

But when it was the right person, I knew it. We've lived together happily this entire time, and spend most of our waking (non-working) hours in very close proximity to each other, and we love it. I had to become a little tidier, and he had to learn to accept that his house would be flooded with books from floor to roof -- but those were largely easy compromises. I became tidier not because he insisted, but because I loved him and I wanted him to be happy, not driven mad in his own home. So I made the effort. In the same manner, he made the effort to accomodate my need to chatter at him intermittedly while he's working, or my expectation that you make the effort not to be surly or nasty to the one you love, even if you're having a kind of shitty day.

I agree heartily with Debbie Miller's post, which was one of the most comprehensive and realistic discussions of the question. It really does depend upon your relationship, and the circumstances in which your decision is made. You have to ask yourself some tough questions before you head in, and really examine why you're doing it. We lived together basically because, even if we weren't completely ready for it at the time, we both had a feeling that we'd each found our One. In that case, living together worked wonderfully as a space for us to get ready to prepare for taking the next step -- and learn important things about each other in Real Life that affect your marriage exponentially, like finances, and living habits, and how we view our responsibilities to each other and to ourselves.

But living together really is like Marriage Lite in a way -- because in order for it to work successfully, you have to be prepared to share your life to a degree that you may not have even fully comprehended before. Everything is about "us", and not so much about "you" anymore. This person is not just a part of your life anymore, but is fully IN your life -- is as much a part of your existence as you are. With the wrong person, trying to force that kind of in-your-pocket togetherness can be disastrous -- leaving each of you crawling the walls for some friggin' privacy. With the right person, it's as comfortable as living in your own skin.

Anyway, that's my psuedo-advice. I think that the lessons learned from cohabitation are too numerous to mention, and the long-term hurt it can save you from are worth the immediate pain if it goes badly. If it goes well, you've just had the benefit of a few extra years with this person, enjoying his/her company day in and day out, learning about your partner and yourself, and strengthening your relationship. I can't really see anything bad in that.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

I did it and I'd do it again, but not with the same person. ;)

We solved privacy issues by having our communal room and then our personal spaces (with lockable doors).

We had two-three other roommates, they all predated my moving in, but they were upstairs and we were downstairs, so we only saw them in the communal areas and by choice, (and we liked them a lot anyway, so did a lot w/ them socially).

We'd probably still be together (and not married) except we both had personal growth to get through, we both had major depressive incidents, and then he had a mid-life crisis (he cheated on me, I left, she dumped him, I'd moved on, now he still calls and e-mails me). Them's the breaks, you know?

I would have no problem living with someone I'd dated a longish period of time (dated my live-in SO for about 2 years prior to moving in, then lived with him for 5 years; we broke up 3-4 years ago). I'd be looking hard at all those quirks, though...his AND mine.

The last guy I dated I would have gladly welcomed into my home, as we were very compatible. (It would have had to be that way, or we'd have to get another place, as his home is basically two [nicely-furnished] tiny rooms and a wee bathroom and that's IT, all attached to a larger house.) However, it would have been unwise because he is also going through the male menopause thing and questioning life, the universe and everything. (He is, in fact, 42. So it makes sense in a sick sort of way.)

Most of all, though, you're going to have to be willing to restain some of your baser urges out of courtesy to your partner. As yucky as it will be to have to pick up your clothes, say, once a week, you have to. And if your ppartner cooks dinner one night, it's a nice idea to reciprocate (or, if you are prone to food-poisoning yourself when you attempt kitchen witchery, clean out the bathtub or take the pet[s] to the vet). You get the idea.

Getting a 'this is mine and this is yours' stuff and responsibilities form hashed out prior is also a good idea. If you're a twosome and then suddenly you're not, who gets the couch and who gets the cat? Not romantic, but practical.

Since it was my live-in SO's home and not mine, I had to move and start over from scratch with no furniture, etc. (I'd sold a lot of stuff we had duplicates of), and that was no fun. After 7+ years, it was a reasonable assumption that we'd weather most relationship bumps. And, to be fair, we *had* a decent relationship...all but the last 5-6 months of it.

Hope this helps.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

What about the people who just don't particularly care if there's a god, and don't think about it at all?

There was a scene in Steve Martin's L.A Story, where he goes through an orgasmic long-winded interpretation of an abstract painting. To me, your question is analogous to what about people can't see anything when they look at Michelangelo's Creation of Man. It doesn't take much to imagine a neurological disorder preventing someone from seeing two muscular guys touching fingertips, but they are also an exception to how the rest of us navigate time and space. I don't imagine I'm doing anyone a disservice telling anyone I've spotted Waldo.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000