I have 3 does, bought at 1 year old 2 years ago. 2 (Flossie and Floe are sisters) are Toggenburgs, and the other (Annabelle) is a Heinz 57. All have horns and have never been bred. Flossie is the boss goat and she and Floe beat up on Annabelle at every opportunity. None were very friendly to people when I got them, I have made some headway towards taming them down, but they still would rather not be touched. Annabelle will tolerate being petted but clearly would rather not. The other 2 will let me scratch them around on the face a bit, but thats all. They are not afraid of me, will eat out of my hand and all, just dont want to be handled. I would like to get them bred this fall, but am somewhat concerned about their temperament. I cant see either of the two Toggs standing still for milking, let alone letting me handle the kids. You think they might settle down after kidding? I plan to try to get them more accustomed to handling this summer in hopes that might help. Any suggestions or comments? All will be greatly appreciated. Les

-- Les (lvaughn@suntransformer.com), March 30, 2000

Answers

While they are carrying their kids they will settle down quite a lot, then when the kids are born, take them from the mothers and bottle feed them so they will be tame. If at first you have trouble milking the mothers you can tie their hind legs together. If they are on a milk stand eating grain it usually only takes a couple of times tying them.

-- Vicky Anglin (banglin@ucinet.com), March 30, 2000.

Les you might just want to use them as brood does period. I doubt at this age they will calm down much more, breed them, then when they kid, let the kids nurse with mom so they bond for 24 hours. Then move the kids into a new kid pen, away from mom. For the first week take them to mom to be nursed, then after the first week just 3 times a day, you can even go down to twice a day if you want, with all of this handleing the kids will be tame, get them disbudded! You can wean at 12 weeks, offer the kids hay and grain and a water bucket when they are 3 or 4 weeks old. Do the prayer of the doe kid over and over and over, and then sell the mean moms and start your herd with these nice doe kids you will have raised yourself, then you can milk them or whatever! Try to breed these original does to a decent buck with a mom with a decent udder, don't just use some old thing down the road! Or your kids udders won't be all that great, no milk, when they kid. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 30, 2000.

I agree, and add letting them clean the afterbirth and birthing liquids from your hands will often bond them to you because they relate you to their young...plus, the mothering instinct will often make milking easier since they are wanting/expecting to nurse their young. If there were any way to get them up on the milk stand daily before kidding and just brushing them and touching them around the udder while they eat grain it will also help. Something about going through a birth with a doe creates a bond and acceptance/trust of the human.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), March 30, 2000.

I had a few like that, couldn't get anywhere near them. They settled right down after I helped with the kidding, and after a few days of adjusting to being milked, were perfectly cooperative. They now come to the fence for petting and nose touches.

-- Connie (connie@lunehaven.com), March 30, 2000.

I think that it would be very possible to tame them down if you want to work with them. It is very rewarding to have a half wild goat learn to trust you and act affectionate. The first thing you need to do is to put a collar on each one if they don't have one yet. Then, every day,feed them a little grain, while they are standing in a milking stand, from your hand. While they eat,pet them all over their body. You could get a scrub brush and brush them,too. Talk quietly to the doe and say her name a lot. At first they will act relieved to be out of the milk stand when you are done. But if you do this every day, with each doe away from the others so they can't beat up on her or steal her grain, and don't ever give them grain except when they are on that milking stand,(future training for being milked) they will begin to look forward to being talked to and petted. You could just sell them and buy others, or raise kids off them and then get rid of them, but who is going to want a half wild goat if you don't? They would probably just get eaten. You could also take them to the vet (don't even consider doing it at home) and get their horns removed. That will really humble the bossies and they will be safer to be around too. Horned goats tend to have an attitude, that goes away when the horns do! They won't mind you handling the kids, you don't need to worry too much about that. Most does kick a little when they are first being milked, but if you handle their udders a lot for a month or two before the kids arrive they will be better behaved. The other thing you can do is to lead them around by their collars so they get used to going where you want them to. Goats are rather nervous animals and their trust must be earned. They also have amazing memories, so they remeber if they have ever been mistreated. Maybe the former owner intimidated them or kicked them out of the way, or maybe they just weren't worked with. Either way,if you are gentle and kind to them they will come around eventually.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), March 30, 2000.

We once had a goat that didn't want to be touched. We followed all of the about suggestions but she never became tame. Before she kidded for the first time, she would go wild on the milking stand if you tried to touch her udder (she was there to be fed and get used to the stand as stated above). After freshening, she stood as gentle as a lamb to be milked but still fought if you tried to brush or rub her. So, if your goats won't let you touch their udders before they freshen, don't dispare. Everything changes after those kids are born. They may turn out to be good milkers even if they never respond well to you. The question is do you still want to keep them if they never calm down. Our wild one also had horns and I was injured several times-not because she was trying to be mean but because she was so skiddish. Those horns and her nature got her sold for meat even though she milked well. I'd recommend following the above suggestions to try to gentle them but be prepared (emotionally) to part with them if it doesn't work out. Your best bet is to bide your time and put your hopes in their kids. So, as Vickie suggested, get the best buck you can even if you have to pay high dollar to get them bred. By the way, we get from 90% to 100% doelings born when we put vinegar in the drinking water of the moms. The moms need to drink this water at least three months before you breed them. After they are bred you can go back to regular water of course. We use Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar and put about 2 TBS to 5 gallons. The water needs to be fresh every day. For some reason the does will drink the fresh vinegar/water just fine, but they don't like stale vinegar/water (I don't blame them).

-- Yesteryear Cottage (oberg@watervalley.net), March 30, 2000.

Thanks to all for the suggestions! Looks like I need to put together a milking stand and start getting them accustomed to it. Anybody have good plans for a good sturdy milking stand? Les

-- Les (lvaughn@suntransformer.com), March 31, 2000.

Les, I made a very sturdy milking stand from (you guessed it) a palette and scrap lumber. I put short and sturdy legs under and added another "floor", then side and front rails, and finally a tray holder for grain, and slots for the neck. I kept meaning to add a bar to close the head into the feeding end, but it hasn't been needed. I'm tall, so this is a nice height for me, and the palette is wide enough for the ladies and for me to sit. Good luck with your goats!

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), March 31, 2000.