I have been making my own flour with a grain mill that works wonderful. The flour is so light and fluffy that I'm not sure how much extra should be added to recipes to equal the bagged flour. I use a bread machine and am having trouble producing nice loaves. Has anyone figured out an approximate ratio?

-- Anita Nielsen (atnielsen@egl.net), April 11, 2000

Answers

I also grind my own flour for making bread and other baked goods. I have found that I have to use at least 1/2 cup extra for every cup of flour I use. I don't know if this is going to help or not, as I have never really stopped to figure it out, but have just added extra until my dough, be it bread dough or cookie dough, etc., looks right. It seems to work well for me. What kind of grinder do you have?

-- Tammy (btawilliams@juno.com), April 11, 2000.

I have a Grain Master Whisper Mill and I love it. It has different settings from fine to coarser and is fast and clean to use -not dusty like I had always imagined. I highly reccommend it.

-- Anita Nielsen (atnielsen@egl.net), April 11, 2000.

Have you discovered that you need extra gluten to make lighter loaves? I was making bricks (I also have a Whisper mill) and a friend with the same bought some pricey gluten by mail to lighten her bread. I just gave up. Now I'm ready to try again. I asked for a gluten recipe and some kind person answered right away. What is your secret for lighter than brick loaves?

-- Peg (jnjohnsn@pressenter.com), April 12, 2000.

About the bricks...Do you have a bread mixer or are you doing it by hand? Developing the gluten when you knead is the key. I use a Bosch mixer and also add dough enhancer. Even with all that help sometimes my bread is flat. Weather, water temperature and freshness of yeast could also be a factor. You might also want to add a little white flour to your wheat to help it out. I have read the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. It has a troubleshooting guide that is helpful. My library had a copy so maybe yours does too.

-- Jennifer (jkmills@freewwweb.com), April 12, 2000.

The only home-ground flour I've used is rice flour, as I have celiac disease, but I had made a lot of bread before I got "sick". If you are using whole-grain flours, the bread is almost certain to be heavier than white, but try not to get the dough too stiff, i.e. don't knead too much flour into it. I use xanthan gum in my rice flour baking to get some of the effect of the gluten, and it might be helpful in whole-wheat breads, too. It's very expensive (about $18/lb.) but you only need a teaspoon or so for each recipe, so it lasts a long time. And I add a teaspoon or so of cider vinegar in place of the dough enhancer. I don't know how the bread machine would affect the texture of the bread, as I've always made all my bread by hand. Making it by hand, you can judge by the feel how much flour you need -- maybe you should try your recipes a few times by hand, measuring everything carefully, until you get the measurements where you want them -- then go back to the machine.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 12, 2000.

Jennifer and Kathleen: Thanks a lot for the tips. I use a Kitchen Aid K5 (big one) to mix the dough but not a bread machine. I wanted to get it right before I try my Mom's machine. I'll try less flour and longer kneading first and see what that does.

-- Peg (jnjohnsn@pressenter.com), April 12, 2000.

One of the items on my "To Do" list this year is to try growing some of my own wheat and grinding it. Since I don't have a grinder yet I will have to get one. For those of you who mentioned that you had grinders you were pleased with, can you tell me if there is a website for them. Thanks. Meanwhile, I'll just type in the name of the grinder in the search box and see if something pops up.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), April 14, 2000.

Colleen, I don't know if Country Living Grain Mill has a website or not...I suppose I should've looked before responding...sorry. But I recommend it as a very fine product. I have the bean auger, the container that snugs up to the hopper, and the larger wheel accessory,too. (I consider that a must have, b/c it's tough enough grinding). Besides being a fine product, Jack Jenkins is a cool guy (the owner/manufacturer). I went out to his place, and he has been doing some serious sensible living for years. He also helped me figure out how to rig my mill up to an exercise bicycle that I got for free...what parts, etc. So, I personally think anyone who wants to buy a mill of this quality should get one from him. BTW, I understand he has a new attachment that lets you process oats. I'm so broke right now that it's out of the question, but maybe next year. Anyway, he usually has a full page ad in Countryside. I don't have the new issue YET so don't know if there's one in May/June.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 14, 2000.

For anybody who might not realize it, there is an older thread on grain mills available right here. Go down to older messages, then to "uncatoregorized", click here then go down to "Comparing Grain Mills" and click on that.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), April 15, 2000.

Hi all! I have just discovered your site and am very happy to see this link. I have been making bread with a grain mill for over 8 years. I wrote a grain mill comparison for a Y2K forum in '98. If you need info, please go and check it out at: http://cyberfind.com/Y2K/breadlady.html Also, I posted a recipe using freshly milled flour in a bread machine on the Bread Baker's forum. I don't have the link right off the top of my head, but if you are interested, you may certainly email me for it.

I am an experienced baker, recipe creator and trouble shooter for those who wish to cook with 100% freshly milled grains. Please email me if you think I can help you. I have written a cookbook on this as so many people who came to the class I teach on this asked for my recipes. If you'd like to check me out without having the "obligation" of emailing me, please visit me at: http://www.mindspring.com/~breadforlife

I look forward to these discussions. What a great board!! :o)

Bread Lady

-- Bread Lady (breadforlife@mindspring.com), April 16, 2000.

Wow!! Welcome! Thanks Bread Lady! I am sure you will be a valuable addition to our *family* here.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 16, 2000.

What I have noticed with the machines (I have 2) is that the rising time is not long enough for whole grain. As I understand it, our fresh needs more time for the gluten to develop. I add some to mine. when I make it by hand, I knead for 20 minutes, I do take a break as it doesn't seem to mind, which lets the gluten develop more fully. My machines do have a whole wheat setting but I timed it once and it wasn't long enough. My aunt had surgery which kept her from kneading so she must use the machine. She doubles the kneading. I tried my Kitchen Aid mixer and am reasonably happy with the results. I also like to mix hard with soft wheat. The result is lighter. I have a Country Living Grain Mill and have been most pleased. We added a motor last fall when I had to have a few discs in my neck replaced and I have no intention of putting that handle back on as long as I have electric power! Has anyone tried cooking with the whole wheat besides bread? I use it in all kinds of things and we love it. I even got a "city" friend started cooking with it and if she keeps going at this rate, she will have to buy her own wheatberries. If you are interested, the book I have is called The Wheat Bin. I found it here in Ks at a visitors center but I looked it up and they do have a web site. The lady who wrote the book I guess is retired and someone else runs the co. now but they do still have the book for sale.

-- susie goodart (goodartfarm@msn.com), April 17, 2000.

I found a great book at the library called Amy's Bread. Although not focused on whole wheat, I have adapted her slow-rise methods to my whole wheat recipes and have been pleased with the results. Her recipes call for very little yeast (1/2 tsp. for 3 loaves) and lots of rising time, often overnight. Whole wheat responds well to this slow, cool method as it gives the gluten more time to rise. When I'm in a hurry with my bread, I mix (not knead!) the batter before adding all of the flour. This prolonged beating also helps develop the gluten, and I can use the usual amount of yeast and quicker rising times. Good luck.

-- gabby (gabbycab@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

I looked at the Bread Lady's web page given above and disagree with her description of the Corona grain mill. I use a Corona mill that I bought with modified machined metal burrs so it can produce relatively fine flour. The body, auger, and burrs of this mill are NOT aluminum nor potmetal. It is made of CAST IRON with a food grade tin plating. Out of the box it turns hard and should only be considered a way to crack grain in this configuration. I however adapted it to an old exercise bike and used sprockets and chain from old bike to give a step down drive ratio making it easy to pedal, grinding wheat to fine flour in one step. (Sort of like driving your car up a hill in first gear instead of fifth gear) Takes me ten minutes to grind 4 to 5 cups of flour. Believe this is simular to result of the Country Living Mill which is a fine machine although I believe it is made of aluminum and certainly pricey. The Bread Lady's estimate for the CLM of 7 cups in 13 minutes may be a might optomistic unless you really want a workout. Anybody out there with lot of direct experience with the CLM please correct me. I've only used one once to try out and my memory is a little fuzzy. By way if you just want to experiment, I just received a sale brochure from Northern Hydraulics which lists a Corona clone for $19. (leftovers from Y2k I believe) Not a bad price although I have seen old Coronas and clones sell cheaper at auction. Most in very good shape since the difficulty in cranking one as it comes from the factory is high so they dont get used much. Coronas dont have bearings (although cast iron has some inherent lubricating properties) so dont ever turn one faster than 50rpm or you will get accelerated shaft wear as some who have haphazardly attached them to an electric motor have found out. You could indeed electrify one if you keep this in mind and properly gear down the speed of the motor. Turning one faster than 50rpm also heats up the flour too much(destroys vitamins) and will glaze the burrs. If you need higher production rate, you need a bigger flour mill with bigger burrs and probably a motor.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), April 18, 2000.

I rarely bother measuring stuff when I cook. I just go by what looks right. So I just ground some flour and measured everything accurately to the level measuring cup. I ground four cups exactly of wheat into almost six cups of fine flour in 5 minutes with my modified Corona. I did this at a brisk enough pace to get my heart rate up rather than my usual slow , distracted, mind elsewhere pace. So I have to go back and say if I can grind the equivalent of say 10 cups flour in ten minutes, the Country Living Mill for sure should do 7 cup in 13 minutes at an easy enough pace. My usual ten minutes to grind 4 cups flour includes getting sidetracted by some news story on TV or daydreaming out the window and such. This is not real mind engaging work. Happy baking everyone. I have my bread machine set so I can eat my experiment late this afternoon.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), April 18, 2000.

I have found that hard red wheat makes the best tasting loaf, but the hard white wheat makes the lightest loaf.

Also, you might try drying the wheat berries a bit before grinding them.

-- R. (thor610@yahoo.com), August 16, 2000.

That is a exactly what I do, I mix my two favorite flours together. A am very lucky to live relativly close to some great folks. They have very large families, a homesteading mentality, all of course have goats, and they all get together and purchase their food inbulk. I was able to try small bag fulls of grain before making the big purchase of the 5 gallon buckets. Hands down the winner for me was Montana's Best, Hard White and Hard Red, Spring Wheat. I mix the two together. I do use "store" bread flour to lighten the loaves when I am using my bread machine exclusively. Most of the time my bread machine only serves the purpose of mixing and kneading for me while I am outside in the morning doing chores, I set mine on the dough cycle, when in from chores, I put the dough into a much bigger bowl, and let it rise until I need it for evening rolls, fry bread, stuffed bread (gave the recipe earlier) our pull apart cheese bread. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 16, 2000.