I know this is going to open a can of worms because bottle feeding seems to be the norm nowadays, but I've never had a bottle fed kid do half as well as my dam raised kids! My goats don't have CAE, so I let all the kids nurse. I have only bottle fed kids that have been bought from other places that are too young to wean.They are never as healthy and big as the dam raised kids, and even the ones that are doing well seem to lack that vibrancy and vigor that the dam raised kids have. All the kids that got coccidiosis a few years ago were either bottle kids or weaned very early at 6 weeks. I am bottle feeding two kids right now,and have been doing everything by the book,they are eating grain,hay,etc but they just aren't as big and strong as they should be. I think that the replacer is part of it,so I am switching them to fresh goat's milk now and gave the really puny one (who,at a month old,is the same size as some of our newborns) some colostrum. I have read on other goat lists and publications that we are supposed to give them all kinds of shots and vaccines,and give them a coccidiostat in their grain,keep evrything sterile,etc. I haev never done any of this and the only kids I lose are the bottle fed ones, but usually they live, but just poke along and don't do as well as the others.I have also read about all the diseases and afflictions that other herds get, and how they can be prevented with antibiotics and vaccines, but again,we never get those problems. Is it the bottle feeding, or does the routine medicating weaken them, or is it because the weak are allowed to live and reproduce by keeping them alive through the medication and vaccines? The goat is supposed to be one of the hardiest animals you can raise, are we headed down a road where soon they'll be as sickly and disease prone as other livestock?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 20, 2000

Answers

Rebekah, I have two goats. I don't know if they have CAE. I never had them tested. I let the kids nurse from their mother. To me, that is the most natural thing. When they get to be about 6 weeks old or more, I start to wean them and then I start to milk the mother. For bigger operations who want more milk, this may not be too efficient, but for me it works fine. I don't medicate my animals. I let them pasture feed, supplementing with grain when I milk. My goats have never been ill, the kids thrive. No problems so far. I prefer cleanliness and good nutrition as a prevention rather than vaccines, or shots as a cure.

-- R. (thor610@yahoo.com), April 20, 2000.

When we bottle-raised babies, it wasn't so much so we could get all the milk (though we did need it for our family) as because bottle- raised kids are so much easier to handle as adults. And we never fed replacer, only their own mother's milk, starting with the colostrum, and we never had any health problems with the babies.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 20, 2000.

Just a short note on my thoughts about dam raising. i have to pack and leave for weekend. As many folks might know if they have read other posts from me on this i dam raise. we dam raise this year due to work schedules and because our herd was tested CAE negative. Now I know that does not always guarentte.. but then there are no concrete guarentees with CAE. I tried something different this yr too.. I gave all the kids when born but before nursing a dose of Immuno-G, this is similiar to Goat stress Hoeggers sells or ID-1 sold too. You give it 2'xs per day for the first 3 day. We also give shots too. I found my kids this yr are healthier, bouncier and have grown better too by dam raising. Some at 3 months are at almost 40 pounds or more. I think as far as vaccinations go its a preventive against.. but thats just my humble opinion. Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 20, 2000.

Rebekah, it would be a fairer response from you if all of your bottle kids weren't "from someone elses place, or to young to wean". They got coccidiosis because they were stressed from the move away from their dam and you did not use a prevetative. Though initially kids raised on dams are larger than their bottle counterpart, (and that is not true here) in the long run there is no difference. We very succesfully show against herds who dam raise, our kids are alot tamer. My pasturized bottle fed kids are now from 6 weeks to 10 years old, the milking stock have better, softer udders than their dams, they also are healthier, my 10 year old had triplets and is milking 8 pounds, and is Nubain! I seem to come at these questions from a different view point than the rest, because I raise goats, not only because I love them, but for profit in animal and milk sales. You do not know that you are CAE negative (Cl, Johnes, Microplasam, Chlymida) especially if you are purchasing from other farms. As far as worming and vaccinations go, none of these have any long term conciquences on the animal unless you don't do these. Tetanus has a conciquence of death, same for Clostridum disease, I would rather prevent this. Not using prevention is when you will be running for massive dosages of anitbiotics to save an animal that wouldn't have came down with this disease, all for 45 cents for a vaccination? If you aren't disbudding, castrating, trimming feet close, feeding grain than you don't need to vaccinate. If your animals range over free land and aren't in a barn than you don't need to worm. There are years where the only antibiotics that were opened up at my farm where to be sold to other goat herds with medical problems. The problems with goats comes from miss-management the incorrect dosages of wormers, the misuse and overuse of anitbiotics, "she looked a little off so I gave her a shot of penicillin." I do agree with you about letting the weak ones live. This is something that I do not do, and I cringe when giving advice to the folks who are saving a little buck kid with scours at 1 week old. But letting stock die because of pure neglect, and I do believe that not vaccinating and not worming, especially in the reality of how most goats are expected to live, in filth, is neglect. There are so many styles of management, I just opt for the one that I know works, I have had Dairy Goats for 14 years. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 21, 2000.

Interesting thread. I certainly would rather leave the kids w/the dam, seems more natural, plus it is just plain ole easier! I also think smaller numerous feedings are better than the 2 a days I am forced to do because of work. But I chose to bottle feed for health reasons; to make handling easier when the kids weigh 140#; and to save the dam's udder's for showing. I had udders get pretty banged up from nursing, especially bucklings. The kids I have bottle feeding now seem fine. Of course there is one or two who seem "behind" some of the others, but I think more than bottle feeding/dam feeding accounts for that...things like Vicki sited, stress from moves; genetics; feeding of the dam during pregnancy; and even the ole' "runt of the litter" when trips are born...there always seems to be one that is smallish...I suppose in the natural it would probably die. Sure have seen my share of beautiful National Champs that were bottle fed--almost all of them anymore. I vaccinate and worm because I truly agree that goats just aren't as hardy as they once were...for whatever reason--I raised them 30 years ago and I swear this is the case! I think we humans are less hardy than we were too, lifestyle, etc. We live longer because modern medicine and medical procedures enable us too, plus we are smarter about how we live....same with goats. I know you natural living folks will take issue with this, but I know my dad would have died 15 years ago if it weren't for medical science. Me, I survived cancer that would have killed me at 45, if it had occurred 15 years earlier. Goats are just raised differently now. Vicki points that out. We raise them for different reasons now, we want perfection, not practicality; we breed for monetary return, not to maintain a supply of milk. Competition is now the main reason for raising goats. Before, it was an economical source of milk, meat, and manure. I know this isn't true for all, but now many farm for hobby, reputation, and monetary return, not out of necessity for a source of food. I don't especially like it, but I think it is true. Because of the change of purpose, there is just more exposure and moving about of stock, thus propagating disease. Rebekah, you could very well be correct about the future health of the goats, I've seen decline in the last 30 years, it has already started. But, to recognize that and scorn medicine and vaccination, unless you have a completely closed herd, could be a combination for problems or it could be natural selection...I guess it comes down to how well you can handle letting the weak and ill die, plus isolate your herd. It is a tough and insightful question. Good job!

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), April 21, 2000.

Towards the end of our goat keeping, I got smart. I figured that the babies, if left with mama, would get all the milk that they could drink, so I feed them LOTS of pasturized milk, working up slowly to almost a two liter bottle a feeding, three times a day, for eight weeks, and longer, if I had the milk. They were introduced to medicated lamb creep feed in a free choice feeder as soon as they started to nibble at food, as a prevention against the cocidia I was fighting. I bought a bag or two of Calf Mana, to mix into the feed. Hay was also free choice, as nice as I could afford, the more alfalfa, the better. Worming was on a regular basis, and I clipped them when it got hot. In a dry barn area, with a mineral block and lots of room to romp and clean water, they grew huge, but not fat....and sweet tempered and sleek. I know this is contraversial, but it worked for me, and if we ever get back into the critters, I would do it again, the same way.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), April 21, 2000.

Leann, which part is controversial? The pastuerized milk? I have planned on getting a few goats (2) this spring for pasture purposes. I hope they aren't that finicky to care for.

-- Anne (HealthyTouc101@hotmail.com), April 27, 2000.