How Do You Celebrate Christmas?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread |
I know this isn't really related to homesteading, but I was just wondering how many of you celebrate Christmas... Am I overstepping the boundaries here? If I am...paenitet me....
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 03, 2000
May sound Clintonesque, but define "celebrate"! Anyway, we do. And "paenitet"? HELP me here! GL!
-- Brad (homefixer@mix-net.net), May 03, 2000.
We do not "celebrate" Christmas, we observe it..we celebrate Easter. Curious as to why you would ask??????
-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 03, 2000.
We do celebrate the birth of Jesus, I think celebration of life is important. There are other events that should be celebrated among families. Family and friend traditions are very important. We don't do Santa Claus, although we did buy a few gifts for friends and grandkids. In years past we cut down our tree and had homespun country Christmases. This year we didn't do anything but the gifts. Did we miss it? The homeyness of it, yes, the commercialism and stress, no. Also, we celebrate Resurrection Sunday, not Easter, July 4th, Thanksgiving and birthdays(but not lavishly).
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 03, 2000.
Hi, My Hubby & I are Christains & we celebrate Christmas. We also celebrate each & every day of the year in Jesus! Sonda in Ks.
-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 03, 2000.
Since the Savior is to be our example in all things, we don't celebrate christmas or easter.He never celebrated them, because they were pagan feast days that had been around long before he was ever born! Easter,or ishtar, is the name of a pagan goddess, so while the bible does mention easter, it is not in a favorable way.Christmas is the feast of Saturnalia, warmed over with a christian title and presented as Jesus' birthday, which it's not. If you do some research with some encyclopedias, you will find that it's true. It wasn't easy for me to learn about this, and it was hard at first, not to celebrate these days. Relatives made it especailly difficult at first, and it is still hard to receive X-mas presents. The scriptures are pretty clear about not adopting pagan holidays and customs, and that is what these days are. It is true, that when the Catholic church adopted these jolidays, in an attempt to get the newly converted pagans away from idolatrous practices, they tried to give the holidays christian themes. The spring fertility festival became a celebartion of Jesus' resurrection, but the old fertility symbols of eggs and rabbits are still around, as is the original name of the feast.If you have ever wondered what yule logs, christmas trees, and mistletoe have to do with Jesus' birth, the answer is nothing! It's not a popular subject, but nearly every pastor, if he is honest, will admit to you that these things are true. We do celebrate the feast of lights,also known as the feast of dedication, or Channukah, because Jesus did. See John 10:22 And we celebrate the feast of Passover and unleavened bread, as Jesus did, in commeration of his sacrifice for us. The children don't miss the christmas festivities when there are candles on the menorah to light, and instead of just one day of presents, they get to open a present every day for 8 days.
-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 03, 2000.
No, Abigail, I do not. Rebekkah, Jesus also built a Sukkah, honored the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, kept kosher, and spoke Hebrew. Because Jesus was raised as a conservative Jew.
-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), May 03, 2000.
Amen to what Rebekah said! We do not celebrate Christmas and Easter. We do celebrate the "Feast of Ingathering" which I believe to be Thanksgiving. Also have observed the feast of Unleavened Bread which includes the observance of Passover. We are Christian. Jesus was Judean, not Jewish.
-- Sonflower (sonflower35@icqmail.com), May 03, 2000.
I generally avoid anything that has anything to do with organized religion regardless of denomination, sect, cult or whatever, including the traditional holidays, however I confess to feeling a little nostalgic around Xmas sometimes but I get over it real quickly.
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 03, 2000.
Yes, Jesus observed the religion in which his parents raised him, but while celebrating the Passover in the upper room with his Apostles, Jesus established the New Covenant, the forthcoming ultimate Sacrifice of his body and blood in order to open the gates of Heaven for us sinners.As for His Resurrection, in more "Catholic" countries "Easter" is referred to, as Cindy said, "Resurrection Sunday" or something similar. The bunnies symbolize new life, as Jesus' resurrection is new life. A story I heard about Easter eggs is that years ago, many Christians gave up eggs during lent; then when Easter came, there was such a stockpile of eggs, the people boiled and decorated them and shared them with their neighbors.
And Christmas is a Holy day as well. Does anyone know exactly on which day Jesus was born? I doubt it. The important thing is that we celebrate God's amazing gift of becoming man for us. We give gifts to each other in a humble remembrance of God's gift to us. I agree, the extravagance, commercialism, and gaudiness don't belong. I am trying to establish in my family the giving of gifts of a spiritual nature, or gifts of time and talent. EVERgreen trees are a symbol of life EVERlasting. In our home, the tree doesn't go up until Christmas eve, or possibly the weekend before, and it doesn't come down until we celebrate the feast of the Magi. Actually, some have suggested waiting until the feast of the Magi for exchanging gifts, which I think is a pretty good idea.
-- Laurie (SUPERGS63@AOL.COM), May 03, 2000.
When I say celebrate, I mean giving presents, putting up a tree ect... I was just curious as to why. We do, but only because our relatives are not believers. We have decreased our observance over the years, but have not pulled away altogether. As to the lifting up Christ's birth...don't and aren't we to do that every Sabbath? God has given us many days to 'celebrate' the birth of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and the resurrection...if fact all of the 'holidays'. I put the 'holiday' in quotations, because it literally means 'holy day'. The Sabbath is the only holy day that God has given us. I think that is sufficient, (I am not saying that one can't worship God on a week day, but God did set apart the Sabbath for the specific act of worshipping Him). Just curious...what denominations are you guys coming from? Also, 'paenitet me' is Latin for "I'm sorry". I use it a lot when corresponding with other Latin students and I tend to forget not to use it. It is a very useful phrase. I look forward to your replies. Isn't this fun?
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 04, 2000.
I forgot to mention that another reason we don't wish to 'celebrate' Christmas, is because we aren't told to in God's Word. It does not tell us to observe His birth by giving eachother presents or putting up a tree. I'm not critizing those who do, but merely stating what I believe. I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging on Christmas day that Christ was born and offering up our prayers of thanks, but we need to be careful that we don't get caught up in the Christmas 'spirit', which is now considered the magical feeling of going shopping. Another thing is that Christ was not born in the Winter. If Christ was born in the Winter, the sheep would not have been out in the fields, nor would the Shepherds. Just a thought...
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 04, 2000.
Abigail, how do you see the Sabbath? Is it Saturday, do you do nothing on that day? How do you celebrate Christ, with prayer, singing, witnessing, fellowship, Bible study? If you truly follow the day of rest(God rested), do you observe this in all thing, even gardening? The old testament says to garden for 6 years, then give the land a year of rest. You may glean the garden during the year of rest. That's possibly in the book of Leviticus(the same book that tells you how to slaughter animals and how to eat right). Is celebration a special time to give thanks with others or alone to God for so many things, or is it a time to be self-indulgent? I have a couple more questions and thoughts, but I'd like to see your answers first. You very philosophical for youngun. Isn't homeschool wonderful?
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 04, 2000.
As I mentioned in my first response to your question I avoid any affiliation with any organized religion, thus I call myself a closet Christian.I do so because the term Christianity carries too much baggage in my mind and in the minds of others and I'm not so ambitious as to willingly carry that around with me. To be more specific, in the minds of some, the vocal few I hope, the rabid religiousity they display is rude, disrespectful, narrowminded and intolerant of the rights of others to make their own choices, their GOD given right to free will. When I'm told to believe this way or you'll go to hell is an affront to any sincerely spiritual person. And to think that one has a corner on salvation merely because you go to church is a chief ingrediant in the recipe for spiritual arrogance. People of this ilk have given christianity a bad name. This is not to say however that all or even most Christians are like that.
I happen to believe that the universal spirit personified by Christ and others is universal, always has been and always will be, everywhere. There is a timeless mystery tradition which all genuine religions are rooted in and Christianity is no exception. It is profusely evidenced in the bible by the use of common symbols shared by those mystery traditions. And the use of these symbols can be traced back to the ancient egyptian, vedic, and hebrew cultures which were ancient even then at the time of Christ.
In short, I take my truths where I find them, whether in the Gita, upanishads, bible or others.
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 04, 2000.
John, responding to your statements could take a long time, I can't do that now.First of all, there's a difference between religion and Christianity and between being spiritual and being a Christian. However, Christianity has the only Savior (Jesus) that died and rose again for all people(You either accept that or you don't). There's no one denomination that has all the answers. NOT ONE. God judges the heart, He knows those who are truly seeking Him.
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 04, 2000.
John, anyone who thinks that they "have a corner on salvation" just because they go to church is in serious trouble, eternally speaking. The Bible says very plainly that in order to be saved, you must believe on Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, and be born again. Going to church is needful for a born-again person who wants to be obedient to God, but it won't save anyone. As for Abigail's original question, yes, we do celebrate Christmas, strictly as a remembrance of Christ's birth, knowing full well that no one but God knows the exact date of His birth and that we were not commanded to remember the day in the Bible -- but He didn't say we shouldn't keep it, either, and it is good to set a day aside to celebrate the birth of Christ. I do think that the remembrance of His resurrection ought to be more important, but can understand why the world would prefer to forget the fact that Jesus Christ is the only One who died and is still alive, and will return to rule the earth. It's awfully inconvenient to have to remember that God is real, and that we will all be held accountable for every thought, word, and deed, when what we really want is to do everything our own way -- in essence, making our own gods. And since eternity makes our lives here and now look like less than a drop in a bucket, it is too serious a thing to take lightly, far too important to go into without making sure of the truth. For those who think that "truth" can be found anywhere and in all religions, it would be good to do a serious study of the source and the consequences of what the other "religions" teach. Yes, I know that there are a lot of not-very-admirable people who have claimed to be Christians; the only way to sort the sheep from the goats in this instance is to know God's Word thoroughly, and be able to recognize those whom HE considers to be one of His -- you'll find that it is fairly easy, once you get to know someone, to see if they really believe in God or are fooling themselves. Of course, it is a lot of work, and takes a lot of time, to get to know the Bible that well and have it hidden in your heart -- most people would rather not and say they did!! I am glad to see that there are other young people who are being brought up in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord".
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 04, 2000.
Well I'm back from running the errand and see that Kathleen said all the things I was wanting to say. Thank You Kathleen. John, if you SINCERELY want to know the truth, God will reveal it to you, all you have to do is ask. The answer may not be there immediately, but it will be there.(from someone who ran for almost 40 years.)
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 04, 2000.
Goodness, why was this asked?My relationship with my savior is a very personal thing. My family has always observed Christmas, Why not? If I didn't, I'd feel guilty for taking all those holidays off! Besides, what day He was born on is really inconsequential; the miracle of a virgin birth; a God given savior to Earth; and the declaration by God that there is now "Peace on Earth, good will toward men" is good enough reason to celebrate!
My family calls Easter, Resurrection Sunday and it is observed with the passover. Don't know where Peter Cottontail comes in; never cared. Jesus's resurrection is the most important event this Earth has ever had, whether you believe it happened or not, it's a fact.
Abigail, I think you overstepped your boundries, and, I hereby "paenitet" you. :-)) Just kiddin' with ya!
-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), May 04, 2000.
Here is one that will drive you nuts kathleen,We celebrate christmass AND hanukkah,I was brought up catholic, Husband was raised jewish and he is now a diest,one daughter baptisted baptist, the other follows the jewish faith, son goes to christian pre school,we raise the kids to believe in god,and have RESPECT for others beliefs.
-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 04, 2000.
We observe sabbath also, from friday sundown to saturday sundown. There is a notion that sabbath means doing nothing at all, all day. Nothing could be farther from the truth! It is a day of contemplation, rest from the hustle and bustle of everyday life.Sometimes it is the only day of the weeek when we have time to smell the flowers! We go for walks sometimes,read, relax, spend time together, sometimes other sabbath keeping friends come over, and we can visit and discuss spiritual issues. I don't buy,sell, talk business,do unecessary work,enagage in secular activities, or do anything that might lead to making money, or that seems not in keeping with the spirit of sabbath. For example,I don't show my goats on sabbath.There is a fair that I go to that lasts a whole week, and I have to be there the whole time camping out, but the show day is on Friday. I don't sell milk on sabbath, or milk that was produced on sabbath. If someone needs it, I will give it to them. Sometimes they try to leave the money in the fridge or set it on the shelf,then the money goes into the tithe fund.I don't garden or pull weeds on sabbath, but I do walk through the garden and appreciate the plants, without being so caught up in the work it is a time to actually enjoy the garden. Some people speak of what a burden it must have been for the Jews to keep sabbath,and that those of us who keep it are burdening themselves! I guess that they don't really understand it, or haven't tried to keep it once. What religion are we.... I don't have any label, I am no longer comfortable with the term of Christian, and the history behind Christianity, for example the crusades and Spanish Inquisition. I do recognize that many Christians are honestly seeking God and are good people, and resepect that. Jesus (his hebrew name was Y'shua) was a Jew, not a gentile who happened to be living in Israel. His behavior and customs and observances were clearly those of a Jew. Unless you have some knowledge of Judaism, and the culture, it is hard for a gentile to understand or fully comprehend this. Most of the things that are clearly Jewish in the new testamant flew right over my head and just seemed out of place or peculiar details, until I started to learn a little about the cultural background. The early Christians were more like Messianic Jews than what we think of as Christians, and in many ways we tend to lean towards Messianinc Judaism. So what does that make me,a messianic gentile?! I don't agree entirely with messianic judaism, either,though, and for a time considered converting to orthodox Judaism. Looked into that, but didn't entirely agree with everything there,either,besides, there is no rabbi nearby to take conversion classes from. So, I've come to the conclusion that labels are not important,besides, they produce stereotypes. Traditional judaism mentions something called the righteous gentile, and this seems to be what the new testamant gentiles were. So I guess that is what I am striving towards.
-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 04, 2000.
Nobody is going to drive me nuts, Kathy! If I was just spouting my own opinion, maybe, but I'm not, it's in God's Word. And I don't hate anybody for what they believe, but it sure is sad to see some of the foolishness that is getting passed off as Christianity. I guess that has always been the case, though . . . I emphasize the Word of God so much, because if only people would take the time to thoroughly study the book on which our beliefs rest, I think a lot of the errors would be cleared up. We can't rest our faith on men's opinions, not even (especially not) our own. The only solid foundation is the Bible, which, though penned by men, is the infallible Word of the infallible Creator of the universe. We can't match that. And I hope nobody will repeat that foolishness about not wanting Christianity forced down their throat -- I don't see anyone holding a gun to your head!! As long as the anti's have the right to mislead people, Christians have the right to counter with the truth. When that right is gone -- and it is going -- then this country will be in serious deep trouble. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and doesn't need my pitiful little attempts, but I love Him with all my heart, and I know it breaks His heart to see people He shed His blood for following 'gods' of their own devising who cannot offer the love, peace, and eternal salvation that He offers. "Now, therefore, fear the Lord, and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt, and serve ye the Lord. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14, 15)
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 04, 2000.
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. While I don't agree with most thats been said at least it was said respectfully and that I appreciate. I think its important to remember that whatever we believe, we believe, and don't necessarily know. The bible, like everything else we read or hear is subject to our individual interpretation and it cannot be any other way. Were that not the case there would be no need for any religion or bible study or whatever because we would all understand things to mean the same thing. We are all fallible and prone to mistakes and bring to each discussion a unique perspective which is the result of our own life experience. I do not question that Christ was an enlightened person nor do I doubt the sincerity of many who espouse the beliefs of Christianity. There is alot of wisdom in the bible, as there is in many religions which predate Christianity.Kathleen: I have studied the bible as well as numerous other religions that were contemporary with Christ. Comparative religion has been an abiding passion of mine for many years. Someone else has already commented about early Christianities tendency to adopt the "pagan" celebrations in order to assimilate them so it shouldn't surprise us to note that the Christ story of death and ressurection is also a fairly common theme. I urge you to read about the Osiran myth and compare with Christianity.
As to God in my life, he/she is there regularly, to guide, to teach, to comfort and support which goes to show ya that one doesn't have to call oneself a Christian to be one, at least not in my book. Christ personified a universal spirit, completely transcendent of cultures and religions and the teachings of that spirit are evident in many of the world scriptures whether you believe it or not. Presumably each of us believe what we believe because it makes some kind of sense to us or we resonate with it in some way.
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 04, 2000.
amen to that john, well said.
-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 04, 2000.
John, you remind me of a dear friend that was terribly bruised by the church she attended. She has since said many of the same things as in your post. John, when you are truly born again, you know it, you don't just believe what you believe. It's not a feeling, it's a knowing. When you have a relationship with Jesus, you have joy, peace, strength and hope, much more than you could ever imagine, especially when life is hard. God has given you His only Word and you are free to choose.
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 04, 2000.
I noticed that the word truth has come up several times. Jesus said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the father except through me." (John 14:6) Now if Jesus said that about himself then he is either exactly what he says he is or he's a liar. Further study of the bible will show that the prophesies of the Old Testiment have come true and some are yet to come and there is archeological evidence to back a lot of them up..As far as the arguement that "men wrote the bible" and it contains errors.. Well since God had the ability to create the whole universe and everything in it I am willing to bet that He would also choose men who would record his word without error.
My family celebrates the birth of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ and the fact that He died for our sins, and was resurrected on the third day thus conquering sin and death. Just like the bible says. - Kathy
-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), May 04, 2000.
Cindy: Your compassion is evident in your last post and I commend you for that, however implicit in your post is that I do not have joy or peace or love etc. now. That is not the case and is an incorrect assumption. Despite whatever you may believe to the contrary it is not necessary to be Christian in the official interpretation of that term to partake of the gifts of the holy spirit because they are freely given by God to all who actively participate in divinizing life. We get what we give to life/God. I think thats a law.A little more food for thought. There were found in a Hindu himalayan monestary archives scriptural evidence that strongly suggests that Jesus spent time in India, both as a student and as a teacher. He was recognized as a master and was called St. Issa. This was during the missing years. Bear in mind the Hindu culture was already 3-5,ooo yrs old at the time of Christ and was at least as advanced as the Egyptians. It seems so unlikely to me that Christ developed in some kind of spiritual vacuum, considering the religious and spiritual richness in that part of the globe at that time.
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 04, 2000.
Rebekah, your post is fascinating. You are correct, as I am sure you know, the Talmud does say that it is better to be a 'righteous gentile' than a 'non-religious Jew'. And the righteous gentile is held to a basic standard of seven mitzvot. (as opposed to 613!) Your description of Shabbos is quite familiar, as a day to appreciate the world, while changing nothing, impacting minimally. To bring a friend to the flower, rather than pick the flower and give it to the friend.
-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), May 05, 2000.
Wow. I'll have to think for a minute, for so much was said that I'd like to respond to. I guess first...one of you mentioned that you were a closet christian and that you stay away from anything organized. The fact is, God doesn't call us to be individual Christians. I'm not saying that we don't have our own personal relationship with God, because we do; I'm saying that as a Christian you really need to be with other children of God. Cindy, when you say that we are free to choose, what did you mean? Remember the hymn, 'Tis not that I did choose thee, for Lord that could not be.' As fallen man we would not choose to follow Christ. We easily fall when tempted and prefer the easier life, would we then choose the hard and narrow path? Certainly not; Christ chose us before the beginning of time and we can never be snatched out of palm of His hand. Also, Christ said, "Before you were born I knew you." The term 'knew' is frequently used as being saved. Those who are not His elect will have it said to them on the Judgement Day, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Therefore, the statment of Jesus, clearly shows that we were chosen before we were living, even before the beginning of time. Let us thank God that we are not given the choice, for surely we would decline the offer of salvation.Someone asked how I view the Sabbath. Sabbath, for us, is Sunday. We attend two worship services where we sing hymns and psalms unto the Lord and sit under the teaching of God's Word. We do not have Sunday school, choir or nursery, nor do we have a worship team. We worship congregationally. We do not garden on the Sabbath, but we certainly go outside and appreciate the beauty of God's creation. Most every Sunday we spend in fellowship with other believers. Just in case you're wondering, we are Associate Reformed Presbyterians. I too noticed that someone suggested that God's Word had errors. Well, God's Word says that it was written by 'holy men taught by the holy spirit'. It also says that God's Word is God breathed and no is to add to it or take away from it. God's Word is Truth and if you do not believe that it is, than you will eventually fall. Our pastor gave this example: If the foundation of your house is attacked by termites and you don't notice, then your house will fall down. Since, Christianity is based on God's Word, if false teachers come eating away at it and you don't notice and act on it, you will most certainly fall. God's Word is our foundation, let us not slander and tear it apart, for it is perfect. I noticed that someone else said that God must feel sad when He looks down and sees all people who He died for, not following Him. Well, God did not die for everyone. He died for His elect and His elect alone. He is angry when He sees that His children are being disobediant. He then will punish them and bring them to repentance. Christ died for the sins of many, but not all. I've got to go now. I'm looking forward to talking to you all later! This does wonders for my debating skills:)
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 05, 2000.
I think we should just agree to disagree and let it go at that. Nobody will be converting anybody so the discussion becomes pointless except to demonstrate where we are coming from in the realm of the spirit. This is a homesteading forum after all and perhaps we should limit our discussions to that topic. Such discussions as we are having in this thread, while they may be entertaining to some just don't belong here. There are countless sites where religion and spiritual topics are encouraged and there are even forum sites for Christian homesteaders. Nuff said!
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 05, 2000.
John, sorry I didn't mean to say you didn't experience joy peace,etc. It's the depth. It's like trying to describe the most beautiful sunset. We've all seen beautiful sunsets, and you can get some idea of what a glorious one would look like, but if you don't actually see it, you don't know just how glorious it is. Also you seem to want to put human constraints on Jesus, In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God....John 1:1. Jesus is the Word, He wasn't just a man who got enlightened. John, I'll not try to convince you, but perhaps you should think about why you're trying so hard not to believe what God has said. We can only go so far in trying understand God on our own, using our own mind, and we can obtain some truth, but we can never know the richness and fullness of God, He is so awesome and so much beyond, that the only way we can really know him is if chooses to reveal himself, The wonderful news is that he has done this in the Bible and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 Abigail, we're free to choose to follow Christ or to turn our backs on Him. He doesn't want puppets. He knows who will choose Him. And He cares about everything we do, no matter how insignificant. Well I have tomatoes to plant, God Bless You all.
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 05, 2000.
I'm sorry, Cindy, but I can't agree with you on the point that we choose whether we want to follow Christ or not. Christ chose to save us, by His great grace and mercy. We have done nothing to deserve salvation and are His through faith, not by anything we have done. Let's face it and be thankful that though we are depraved and can do nothing on our own, God gives us the grace to live our daily lives. Just as we love God, because He first loved us we follow God, because He chose us to follow Him.
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 05, 2000.
Oops, I wasn't finished. I sent the last post by a mistake before I was done. I wanted to finish up by saying that my whole point about the original Christmas issue, was that if the point of Christmas is to celebrate Christ's birth...what's with the tree, presents and lights. God gave us the Sabbath, (and indeed every day!) to thank Him for His act of grace and mercy in our lives, why do we need anymore days to do this? Remember, Christmas was originally a pagan celebration. Roman Catholics took the opportunity and made it Christian, and the Protestants copied it. I know the many will argue that Christmas is magical and the perfect opportunity to spread the gospel, but the fact is...its not. The only time many people go to church is on Christmas Day, that isn't spreading the gospel! It is teaching them that the Christian faith is some warm, happy something, that is all about giving, love, peace and sharing. Those folks learn about Christ's birth, but they never learn about His death, resurrection, His life, the lives of His followers in both the Old and New Testaments. I think that many times we forget how important it is to be an example and we tend to embrace the non-Christian celebrations and traditions. Wouldn't it be better to be able to answer, when asked why we do not celebrate Christmas, "Because we can celebrate Christ's birth everyday of the week." That gives so much opportunity to tell more of the gospel. I'm not perfect and I'm sorry if I've been too bold, (I'm really quite shy in person). I'm so excited about discussing this with you; its been very good for me. Thanks for everyone's patience and I'm again sorry if this has been too contraversial. ~Abigail
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 05, 2000.
Abigail, Cindy, Kathleen, and others:It is good to see you defending your faith so vehemently. The book of Jude exhorts all beleivers to do just this, and this is part of our job as born-again followers of Christ, at least as the need arises. It has certainly risen here. Christians in our country on average have been too tolerant of apostacy for too long and are now becoming alarmingly apathetic toward the teachings of Christ, teachings we should guard and revere, even to the point of our own death, as did nearly all of Jesus' first disciples. The Old and New Testaments given us in the Bible are sufficient as our rule of faith and practice. No more need be added as it is an added burden; Revelation 22:19 gives a stern warning to those who try to take away. Anyone who believes otherwise may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong. I agree with John in that this is priamrily a homesteading site and our questions and comments should be to that end. It is inevitable that these issues will arise, however, and we as Christians are doing what we believe to be our job by defending the teachings of our Lord. I am Missionary Baptist.
-- nmays (mays@raptor.afsc.k12.ar.us), May 05, 2000.
I have been watching this thread now for a couple of days and cannot stand it any longer - I have to put my 2cents worth in! Cindy, Kathleen and Kathy I agree with you. Jesus Christ was the only man who walked this earth, died and rose again. NO OTHER RELIGION can claim this. His birth, death and ressurection was also predicted in the old testament. Abigail, I am Baptist, and some Baptist believe in election as you do but I do not. If God chose who was to be saved why do we need to spread the gospel as we are told to do in the Bible? What would be the point? Sure God knew in the beginning who would accept him but it was still our choice. I respect your right to interpret the Bible in your own way but I do not agree with you. Yes, we are saved by grace, not of our own works, but by the blood of Jesus who died for us that we might be saved. He was the perfect sacrifice! Praise the Lord! This may not be homesteading stuff but it is too important an issue to sweep under the rug and my prayer is that someone, even one person might see the truth from this forum.
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 05, 2000.
Barbara and nmays, thank yoou for your letters, I did answer Abigail. Anyway, I don't see why this isn't homestead stuff for those of us who want to pursue it. As far as I'm concered homesteading is a gift from God. He gave use the desires, we were willing, so here we are. God is left out of too much stuff as it is. I think we can discuss whatever we want as long as it's moral, legal and not a personal attack on anyone. We all have similar goals, so the chaff is going to be sifted out anyway.
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 05, 2000.
Cindy, I will have to agree with you about this being homesteading stuff. Who can look at the beauty of the earth, see the miracle of birth, watch our gardens grow and not believe in God. Not just any god we want to believe in but the God of the Bible. The God who said in Genesis 1:1 that he created the heavens and the earth. Whether we chose to believe it or not, we will go to heaven or hell after the judgement day. I sincerely pray someone will come to see the truth through this. As to celebrating Christmas. We celebrate the day we set aside to remember Christ's birth, Dec. 25th. We also celebrate every day his birth and death and the sacrifice He made for us. I do get very upset by all the commercialism that goes along with Christmas (and please, not Xmas) and Easter. We do give small gifts to family and friends as we are able, to show our love for them, as Christ showed His love for us, but we NEVER NEVER go in to debt for Christmas gifts. I think a homespun Christmas is a wonderful idea.
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 05, 2000.
Barbara, I understand your point, but I do not agree. God uses us to present the gospel to His elect. The point of spreading the gospel is to obey. God commanded us to do it, so we obey. How God is going to use our spreading of the gospel, we do not know, but we do know that God often works through people to bring His predestined children to the knowledge of Him. God redeemed His people by the blood of Jesus, by His own good pleasure. If you believe that God is all powerful, then you have to believe that God can either choose to save or not to save. Also, if you believe that you are saved by grace alone and nothing you have done, then you cannot, therefore, believe that you are His child because you chose to be. I agree with those who say that homesteading is related to this topic, because as Christians, which I perceive many of you are, God comes first in all areas of our lives. So how can God's creation and our being stewards, (as we are commanded to be) of it, not be related to God Himself! On that note...good night!
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 05, 2000.
Abigail, God does not wish that any would perish but he does not force Himself on us. We were given the freedom of choice to choose Him by faith through grace and not of works. I am a child of the KING and I sincerely hope you are too. I don't believe that the fact that we disagree on this point will keep either of us from heaven! I hope to meet you there some day and many others on this forum. I'll be there, will you?
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 05, 2000.
How about some of this attention to the unanswered question section?
-- Give Me A Break (Enoughalready@enuf.com), May 05, 2000.
I think the arguement of salvation(grace versus works) was tried and resolved in the mid ages at the Diet of Worms(Catholic court). Martin Luther( Who studied the orginal greek and latin) Proved beyond a shadow of doubt that we are saved by grace alone. All your good works and rightous living may make you feel better but it is nothing in the eyes of God. Our rightousness is blasphamy to God. I celebrate religious holidays,shoot my guns on the 4th of July,and give gifts to my parents on their days. I don't think you will find anyone going to heaven at an organized church--all you find there is the worst form of arrogant,hypocrytical, and self serving people on planet earth. I rely on grace to save me as well as the fact that my mother-in-law stole my front row seat in Hell. I think discussing religion in general is fine but pushing doctrinal differences will destroy productive posts in here. I think --I believe or I don't believe is sufficent for our purposes. Therefore, I beleive--I can never find the words to talk down those who do not but, I believe ! Joel Rosen
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 05, 2000.
AMEN Joel!
-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 05, 2000.
Excuse me???!!!?? Are you saying that it doesn't matter how we lives, as long as we believe? I'm sorry, but the Bible says that faith without works is dead. We are also commanded that if we loves God we will obey His commandments. If you notice, when the Isrealites sinned God's anger burned against them and they were punished. Why were Adam and Eve sent out of the garden of Eden? Because they sinned! I don't pretend to be perfect. Everyone on this earth is a sinner. If you are calling me a stuck up, self righteous something or other I'm sorry that you feel that way. Maybe I have sounded that way and I'm sorry for that and will try to behave myself in the future. My only goal is to defend the truth and I'm sorry if you find that offensive. And for those you don't like this post, you don't need to come and look at it. I don't mean to be rude, but if you aren't interested don't bother to check what's being said. If you notice, most of us are being rather polite and I don't think our fists will come through the computer screen. I'm sorry if I've spoken out of turn and been to bold, but its a rather easy solution once you think about it. Babara, God does not love everyone in the world or want to save them. As I mentioned above, when the Isrealites sinned, God punished them. Often when groups or individual Israelites sinned, they were put to death. God did not wait to convert them. In Isaiah is is said that God died for the sins of some. I'm not sure if you mean that God died for the sins of everyone or only for those you decide later that they want to be saved. From the beginning God knew who He was going to save and you He was not going to save. Our names were written in the Book of Life before the beginning of time. We know this and therefore need to be extremely grateful that God chose us. If you believe that we are totally depraved, ,(the t in tulip) then you have to believe that we are unable to save ourselves. Let's face it, we are powerless to do anything and it is only by God's grace that we are alive. God does not force Himself on us...He doesn't have to. He plants the seed in our hearts and we respond to that. Also, we will be too busy worshipping our God and marvelling at His glory than to chat with others :o) I should go now. I hope I've not been rude, as I tend to get a little carried away, once my mind gets going <:o)
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 06, 2000.
Abigail, You may well be the most intelligent 15 year old on planet earth. I enjoy your posts ! However, you haven't had the social experience away from your parents to learn about how one discusses religion in groups. War after War has been fought over doctrinal differences when it is so unnecessary. 2 people can both be "christian" and wind up killing each other over the proper method or age of babtism. I personally disagree with your interpertation of a bible written by men than reinterpetted more than 5 times. I disagree with you on works having anything to do with salvation. We are just approaching the problem from different ends--if you believe you are saved by grace than good works come flowing out of you. Doing good works alone means nothing to God. My suggestion to simply state your belief in God or not is the best way we can help each other--Keep our faith, keep our love and stop petty bickering. I look at big pictures not petty differences. I would discuss the differences with you in private e-mails anytime but it is offensive to some people to air them publically. You will grow to understand this. As far as living anyway you want and still making it to heaven--oh yes--I use the thief on the cross as my evidence. One act of remorse, one request for forgiveness and he was there ! Semper FI
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 06, 2000.
Thank you Joel!
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 06, 2000.
Joel, sorry if I don't understand your point, but I don't understand your point. The thief on the cross. What happens if you live like you want and don't have a chance to repent. You never know what's going t happen. Don't you think it will be too late?
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 06, 2000.
What strikes me as curious is that some of the same people who were so unhappy about political postings here as being "off topic" of homesteading are such frequent posters on religious topics, which to me are as "off topic" as politics. Seems to me that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. One subject is just as divisive as the other.
-- Carmen (logcabin_now@yahoo.com), May 06, 2000.
The only reason that discussion of "religion" (faith in Jesus Christ is not actually a religion, but a life) is so divisive is that each one is intent on their own way, rather than on God's way. Ephesians 4:1-6 "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation to which ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." The only way to cut through the divisions is to each one leave behind whatever we've been taught or have assumed or somehow absorbed, get God's Word out, and study it thoroughly for ourselves, praying as we do for the help of the Holy Spirit, who will teach us all things. Without God's Word for a foundation, we are on shifting sands of man-made doctrines and philosophies, and cannot come to any agreement, nor have the unity that God wants us to have, as members of the Bride of Christ. I don't expect that all true believers will ever agree one hundred percent on everything, as some things are not specifically set out in the Bible and so we are to apply the principles He has set forth there, and do the best we can. But we should be in agreement on what IS plainly set out in the Bible, and if we aren't it is because 1. We don't really know the scriptures like we ought to, or 2. We haven't asked for God's help, because He will send the Holy Spirit to give understanding to whoever sincerely asks. I have a question: In Revelation 2:1-3:19, how many of you know the meaniongs of the messages to the seven churches, and what they mean for us today? How many of you know which one of those seven church ages we are in today? And how many believe that Jesus Christ is coming very soon to take His Bride (the Church) to heaven?
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 06, 2000.
Kathleen, not many people understand or even believe the book of Revelations. I do. I believe we are in the Laodicean church age. The church at the end of the ages where the people are ruling and are lukewarm. One only has to look around to see how lukewarm many Christians have become and God said he would spit them out. I truly believe our Lord will be coming for His bride very soon as most of the Bible prophecies have been fulfilled. Maranatha Lord Jesus!!!!!!
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 06, 2000.
It's a warning. If you want to see some good prophecy movies you might try, Jack Van Impe's Apocalypse, Revelation and Tribulation, and Thief in the Night, made over 30 years ago, but it gets the message across. Some of the t.v. preachers that seem to know their prophecy are John Hagee, D. James Kennedy, Hal Lindsey(Can't think of the guy with him) Jack Van Impe, and Pat Robertson, (and many more) they don't agree 100% with each other, but they sure give you a lot to pray about.
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 06, 2000.
My goodness ! I find myself agreeing 100% with Joel !!!!!!Jesus came to "save the lost"...if it were pre-ordained that He came only to save some people, why would they be called "lost"??? We are all "lost"...until we choose to look for Him.It is by His grace that we can find Him...Everybody who looks, finds.I work with murderers and prostitutes and child molesters every day in prison.Would these folks be warmly greeted in all Christian churches as seekers of the Truth?....NOT....The Bible does not say that "Those whom God has pre- ordained..hey, you know who you are..you guys look and you will find, everybody else is out of luck"Before I became a "saved" person, the folks who turned me away from God the most were not the "bad" guys in the prison, but the holier-than-thou sanctimonious people who somehow consider that only they have the right customs (or lack of them), the right hymns,(or lack of them),the right ceremonies (or lack of them)..My personal belief is that to be "saved", one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins,and was ressurected in all His majesty,and will come again to judge the world and everybody in it....everything after that is frills, bells, whistles,and the cause of numerous "holy" wars and bad feelings.I do not care a whit if folks celebrate Christmas or not...and I do not believe that God does either,but hey, we'll all find out someday.I just do not believe in an "us" VS "them" mentality..If you are saved,Praise God for His gift and go out and hug an inmate and show him some of your Christian love and acceptance.
-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 06, 2000.
Joel,Salvation is by faith alone, but faith without works is dead. If we love God we will obey His commandments. The thief on the cross, repented and believed. You can't go through life professing to be a Christian and not obeying God! The thief on the cross was being punished for his disobedience and he was obviously not a Christian until he repented and believed. You can't wait until the last minute to repent of your disobedient life! As someone above rightly pointed out, how do you know that you will be able to repent before you die and when you're standing before the judgement throne, it will be a little too late! Remember, we are told tht although we are in the world ,we are not to be of it, which means we are to be different. Shall we let our light grow out and become accustomed to the dark like so many have done? Of course not, we are to be an example, different! I don't know about you, but all this convinces me that I am to be obedient and different in the sense that I repent when I sin. I pray that my light will never go out and my eyes accustomed to the dark, even though I expect that in rough times it may grow dim. I agree that war after war has been fought over unecessary doctrinal differences, BUT to me OBEDIENCE and the lack of it, is pretty important. I don't mean to be bossy, but I suggest that you read through the New Testament and see how much the question of obedience comes up and the importance of it. I also agree that I'm inexperienced, but this forum is giving me a lot and just because I don't have very much of it I can still defend the faith and try to spread the true gospel. I'm open minded, but not so open minded that I'm going to let my brains fall out... I've always wanted to be able to say that!!
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 06, 2000.
How about you guys taking this offline? It seems to have become a private conversation and is using up a lot of bandwidth. Just a helpful suggestion...
-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 06, 2000.
Amen, Lesley!! If you notice, it was the holier-than-thou, sanctimonious religious people who crucified Jesus Christ -- and if you look even further back, in the Old Testament, it was often the "religious" leaders who persecuted and killed the true prophets of God. Ditto with the apostles, Paul, the early Christians, and all true believers since then. Jesus Christ, the truth of Him, threatens the religious structures we humans like to build for ourselves, even though He doesn't force Himself on anyone -- I guess it is a guilty conscience that makes people strike out so fiercely at Him and His. I have seen, with great sadness, that the usual reaction of someone who has wronged another is to invent grievances against the one they've wronged until they manage to convince themselves, and possibly the world, that they are the ones who've been wronged. It is so rare for anyone to admit their own wrongdoing and repent and ask forgiveness that I want to weep for joy when I do see it. Maybe that is how it affects God when we realize our own sinful nature and unworthiness of the Gift He has given us, and repent, and ask Jesus to be our savior.Abigail, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice, God says "whosoever". Now read the rest of the passage (ALWAYS read the whole chapter when someone gives you a Bible reference, and ALWAYS check it out for yourself) and notice that God sent His Son "that the world through Him might be saved." He wants the whole world saved. He knows who will believe, and who will not, and He chooses those who will believe to give to His Son (keep reading John). But the desire of His heart is for all men to be saved. Jesus Christ died for that purpose, and it breaks God's heart that mankind, whom He created, and who he loves (and chastens and rebukes and disciplines) for the most part rejects Him. Some of these things I think you will understand a little better as you get older, but anyone who has had their heart broken by a child who refused the good and chose the evil will come to a better understanding of God's love for all mankind, and His desire for ALL to be saved. He gave us a free will, to love Him or to reject Him, because He wants our love freely given. If we have no choice in the matter we are nothing but robots, not the loving children with whom He desires to have fellowship for eternity.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 06, 2000.
I have just one more comment on this topic, then will leave it alone - - if anyone wants to e-mail me, they're welcome to. Several times on different threads it has been said, with some justice, that we've gotten way off topic. But in considering that, I don't think we were really very far off topic after all. You see, what seems to be expected of the church nowadays is "put up and shut up", i.e. give out the hand-outs to the homeless, the hungry, those whose lives have been shattered by sin (whether their own or someone else's -- but keep our mouths shut about our faith in our savior, Jesus Christ. It isn't deemed polite to talk about the most important thing any of us could ever talk about. And the truly ironic thing is that, because most of us have acceded to that demand of "politeness", the sins and the shattered lives will continue. All of the problems with society, with families, and with individual lives are because the people who should be speaking up with God's truth (rather than some person's opinions) AREN'T speaking up. Whether out of cowardice, or apathy, or fear of overstepping the bounds of polite society, we hold our peace when we ought to be crying in the streets that this nation needs to turn back to God. To the God of the Bible. And I believe that is pertinent to the goals of the people who read this forum, because I see a lot of concern about what has happened, and is happening, to our country. I know not all the forum's readers share my faith in God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible, and that's okay, but we don't all agree about how to feed goats, either, and can still help one another -- and it's all pertinent.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 06, 2000.
Wow, the foregoing was a tremendously impressive thread with everybody striving so earnestly to clearly express their sincere beliefs. At this point many of the particulars of disagreement fade by comparison with the tremendous God-seeking that is going on. I'm made happy and proud of Christians, their struggling with God, and hopeful for the others who are also honestly seeking. Surely, since you are knocking so hard the door will be opened.Its great to see folks speak with the courage of their convictions. Glad you felt it was worthwhile for this board.
-- Charles Burandt (clb@watervalley.net), May 07, 2000.
Kathleen, I couldn't agree with you more about people being afraid to speak up for their faith. Even a lot (probably most) preachers today are afraid to "step on toes". Everyone is supposed to be "tolerant" today. Jesus was not very tolerant of sin and I don't believe he wants us to be either. As I said on another thread, love the sinner, hate the sin. I believe this is the biggest problem in churches today. No one wants to make anyone mad so almost anything goes. I have a feeling this is why Joel is so disillusioned with organized religion and probably a lot of other people also. It is time we get back to the Bible and stand up for what God tells us!
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 08, 2000.
Amen!
-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.
Kathleen,If you believe that God is all powerful, why isn't the whole world saved, since according to you He does? The answer is as simple as this: Because God does NOT want the whole world saved. He did not die for everyone, but only His chosen. Isaiah 53:12 "...For he bore the sin of MANY and made intercession for the transgressors." Hebrews 9:28 says, " so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people..". Left to ourselves we would NOT choose God. He must first work in our hearts and soften them and turn us to Him, before we are able to resist sin. If we give ourselves the credit for choosing to be in Christ, then we will not be giving God all the glory, which we are commanded to do. In Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant I willl make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." This is the Holy Spririt working in our hearts to turn us toward Him. We read in Titus 3:3-7, "At one time we were too foolish disobedient, decieved and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous tyings, we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." We also read in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through the belief in the truth." In that passage it says nothing of being chosen, because we choose to be. We were slaves to sin and were not able to free ourselves, but because of God's mercy, He chose to pour out His mercy on us and He sent the Holy Spirit to work in us. In Ephesians 2:1-10, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you gave been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good woakrs, which God prepared in advance for us to do." In Galations 5:16-18, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you wiull not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is conterary to the Spirit, and the Spririt what is contrary tot he sinful nature. They are in conflict with eachother, so that you do not do waht you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." In Romans 10:13-14, " for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? Romans 9:14-18, "...'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whome I have compassion.' It does not, therofre, dpend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' Therfore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." This is all I am going to post, but there are thousands more references. I am also not going to continue to post on here, but will discuss this with several of you in 'private', since some of you are opposed to this topic and of it being continued. I've really enjoyed this and I hope I will have the priveledge of discussing further such topics in the future. ~Abigail
-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 08, 2000.
While I am no Bible scholar (by far) and I can not answer every question about the why's and what about's about it either, I do know that there is no TRUE peace or happiness outside of Christ. This is called faith. We will never have all the answers (until we get to heaven). We just need to seek God's will for our lives and trust Him.I aslo know that God loves me NO MATTER WHAT. I think we all struggle with sin of some degree every day. We are faced with choices. When we make decisions outside of God's will for our lives, we will suffer the consequences. This would also be interpreted as God's loving discipline. (Those of us with children know exactly what this is all about). When you are a child of God, your desires are to obey Him and seek His will for your life. You may struggle at times with sins of your past, but your desire will be to serve God (not to go on living in sin).
I don't think just because a person goes to church every Sunday, or does a regimented daily Bible devotion etc., this means that he/she is closer to God than any one else. God doesn't care about how many "rituals" we try to keep up with for His name's sake. He cares more about the sincerity of our hearts. Remember the woman who gave the two mites? (If that is even the correct amount?) Jesus said that what she gave was worth so much more than the higher amounts that the "rich" gave because she gave all she had. It wasn't the amount of money that was important but the willingness of her heart...to give all she had.
I feel that there are alot of people that just "do" church because they feel it is the right thing to do and what would so-and-so think if we didn't show up for Sunday service? I say it is better to stay at home and praise, thank and worship God genuinely, in the quietness of your own heart, than to sit in a church pew with a heart that is there for the wrong reasons...just for "show". After all you can NEVER fool God.
I may not put on a good "show" of faith for others to see. But God knows my heart. And what He thinks about me is all that matters.
God has seen me through plenty of tough times in my life. He has NEVER failed me. I may not always understand why things happen the way they do in my life, but I trust in God because He (unlike others) NEVER makes mistakes. He (unlike others) will never leave me nor forsake me.
By His grace (alone) I am saved and though I fall way short of what I feel I should be doing for Him, He still loves me. He picks me up time and time again, dries my tears and puts me back in the right frame of mind whenever I get down.
Our God TRULY is an AWESOME God!!
My prayer for each of you that has posted here on this site, is that you each will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ if you have not all ready. Rather than get in to heated debates, I prefer to fight these battles more privately through prayer. So each one of you better keep your eyes wide open because God will reveal Himself in a mighty way!!
Prayerfully,
Greenthumbelina
-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), May 08, 2000.
greenthumbilina, some people go to church for show, some go for the business contacts, some go for the socializing and some go because they truly love the Lord. God meant for us to worship together, to exhort one another and lift one another up in prayer, not keep it all to ourselves. Just because some may be there for the wrong reasons should not keep us who truly believe away. And who knows, maybe those who are there for the wrong reasons may some day see the light?
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 08, 2000.
I wasn't going to get involved, but after Abigail's last post, I felt that I should respond - IT IS the will of God to save everyone. And as far as predestination goes, I'm going to paste in an email from a part of a discussion my father-in-law and I had.
Many churches use this argument on predestination to assume they are the only ones in this position-- therefore, they are the only ones saved. There is a famous painting where Christ stands outside the door, knocking. The outside entrance to that door requires a pull-rope to open it; yet, the pull-rope is inside--the manner of security in those days. It is evident that the hole for the rope is there in this painting, but the rope is on the inside. This means that He can only knock, but you must open it! This makes reference to Revelation 3:20, which states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me." Please note: the contrasts between "knock" and "hears my voice" and "opens the door", as well as the wording "come in to him." The specific wording here is critical. Now the next scripture:Hebrews 11:6 states, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him. For whoever would draw near toGod must believe that He exists and that he rewards those that seek Him." And also the famous quote (which is my favorite) Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Every man, at some time in his life, calls on God, either through fear, shame, need, hunger, thirst, lust, want, etc. Every call to God is heard, because the Holy Spirit makes sure that every word we utter is heard in a specifc language reserved for God's hearing--and it is recorded for the judgement day. If our call to God is in vain, then we have violated the 2nd or 3rd commandment--using God's name in vain. If we are sincere, then, Hebrews 11:6 begins to work in our lives--because we have faith that He exists, and we seek to draw near to Him. He will open our eyes to see Him. (Reference: scales falling from Saul's [Paul's} eyes.) Also, the Holy Spirit will send the knowledge of Jesus Christ (God, Son, and Man of flesh) to us to knock on the door. The whole first chapter of Romans is challenged with the lack of sincerity in this calling. And just as with Pharoh against Moses, God will give us a base mind, hard heart, and a stiff neck--where we can never receive His blessings. This, in my way of thinking, is the mention of the "only unforgivable sin"--the rejection of the Holy Spirit leading us to Christ, and Christ to God! Then, there is no way to God, and man will continue in his sin. When you look at these two extremes, then you know who He predestined--and who He did not! Even the new born child knows, but his parents can override this knowledge by his/her example and instruction. That is why Proverbs 7:1 is given to us--"The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom." As Pastor Clark (my mentor) stated to me, no one will come to your door and knock if he does not know you--solicitors are always trying to get this information to break down this barrier. Someone may come and knock (not knowing you) because they need help--but guess whose door is being knocked on. It is you knocking on the door of the Holy Spirit to open the heart of this stranger by your acton and reception to where Christ will be revealed. As Pastor Paul Freire put it in his SS class yesterday--we are only here to worship God and tend His garden--for no other reason. All the rest is the result of sin--work and distractions from study of his word, prayer, and worship! We are all guilty of that; therefore, we have to constantly and consistently guard against losing that blessing.
If this discussion is going to go private, I'd like to be included in the distribution list.
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." Proverbs 4:7 NIV
-- Eric Stone (ems@nac.net), May 08, 2000.
Barbara,I did not mean to imply that one should NOT attend worship services merely because others are there for the wrong reasons. I feel one should do a self-examination and find out where your own heart is and where your own relationship with Christ is. Why do you worship? Personally, for me it is partly an act of obedience, but more the desire to praise. Attending worship is vital to growth...IF FIRST your heart is right with God and you are able to receive the Word.
I don't believe that after a "Sunday morning rush hour" of rushing through breakfast, no one has anything to wear, someone won't hurry up in the bathroom so someone else can get in, you're having a bad hair day, where in the world are the offering envelopes?, Oh gee I forgot to get gas in the car last night, Darn I have a run in my hose, hurry we're going to be late, now the five year old has toothpaste on his shirt and has to change it........etc. etc. etc. that THIS is the proper frame of mind for worship. I hear this "Sunday morning routine" from so many people. How can your heart be ready for worship under those conditions?
I feel strongly about this because I feel that God deserves more than that. This is where I feel some people lose the focus of worship. Worship to me should have NO outside distractions. Nothing else should be going on in your mind when you are praising God. This is why I feel that worship is NOT merely contained in a facility such as a church or that we should reduce worship or praise to ONE day of the week.
I prefer to praise God at all times, in all places.
Respectfully,
Greenthumbelina
-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), May 09, 2000.
I agree with you greenthumbelina! I misunderstood. We should praise God and worship Him at all times. But for myself, I can say that there have been times when I went to church even though I wasn't really in the mood, but after going I felt much better and felt the Holy Spirits presence. I do not have young children and I am aware that that can present obstacles to worship but I'm sure the Lord is smiling down on us for taking our children to church and setting a good example for them. I am having major surgery tomorrow. I would like to ask for all of you to pray for me. Thank you.
-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), May 09, 2000.
Greenthumbellina, you are right that it is not conducive to worshiping God to start the morning in the way you describe -- and I know it is a common Sunday scene. It is really important to keep one's priorities straight, and plan ahead to avoid confusion on Sunday morning. I think that confusion like that on Sunday morning really shows that there isn't a commitment to the Lord, because I'm sure most people don't have that kind of a fuss as they are getting ready for work on a weekday morning. It is a shame if we put more effort and forethought into getting ready for work than we do into getting ready for worship. I have many times found that if I made the effort to get to church, even if my mind was in chaos, or my body wasn't feeling well, that the time in church was a time of healing and gaining strength for the week to come. So I always go, unless I or my daughter are really too sick to leave the house!!
-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 09, 2000.
Barbara,I agree with you 100%. =D And as for your surgery (today), I will be in prayer for you. May all things work out according to God's will for you. Keep in touch.
Greenthumbelina
-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), May 10, 2000.
Kathleen,I agree with you 100% also =D It really is a shame, like you stated, that when it comes to our jobs and such, we usually always manage to get there on time without much fuss with preparations in the morning. In fact, alot of us even go so far as to prepare (for work, school etc.) the night before. That's what I always ask folks who suffer from the "Sunday morning rush hour", "Why can't you prepare ahead like you do for work every evening?" Doesn't seem to make much sense to do it any other way does it?
Thanks for you views.
Greenthumbelina
-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), May 10, 2000.