I have only one milking doe, a first freshener, and 3 kids that I am bottle feeding. I have been milking her three times a day every other day to get enough milk for the kids, but I am worried about placing too much stress on her and also, the kids are needing more milk now. She is giving a gallon on the twice a days and just 1 1/4 gallons on the three times a day. Pretty good, I think. However, I am concerned about pushing her too hard. I read that you can feed kids with cows milk and with the milk replacer here running $12.00 for one full days feeding, I can't afford to feed the kids that. Have any of you used cows milk, any problems with scours or slow growth, or anything? Opinions on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!!!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 06, 2000

Answers

Hi Doreen,

some breeders on CAE prevention will use cow colestrum and feed pasturized milk to the kids. One breeder in New England raises Jersey cows, she lets her kids nurse on the cows. I am not sure about store bought milk, never have heard that mentioned as being used. Do you have a dairy nearby? Go to them and get some cow milk. How old are the kids now? If they are a bit older you can add water to it and gradually wean them. Hope this helps.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 06, 2000.

Doreen, how about picking up another milking doe? I would do that before I fed the kids store-bought cows milk -- the doe would be cheaper in the long run, I think. If your doe is well-fed, milking three times a day won't hurt her a bit -- it is common for high- producing goats to be milked three times a day -- at eight hour intervals, approximately. Though 8-10 pounds a day is not extremely high production, still it is pretty good. Let us know . . .

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 06, 2000.

A much better product than any of the milk replacers I've seen, and exactly what I tell my customers who go home with kids, with no milk. You don't have to worry about it causing scours, mixing it cleanly and correctly and especially since you will have goat milk with it. I do add extra vitimins in the form of any of the tonic's for horses, Red Cell etc. because of pasturising my milk or when customers use Whole Vitimin D grocery milk, also pasturised. Know it has to kill some of the good stuff too! Just one of the many things that goat breeders do differently, and all with good results. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 06, 2000.

I'd sell one of the kids before resorting to feeding store milk. I tried to feed a lamb store milk once and it promptly died. How much are you feeding the kids? Generally, they should get about 12 oz,3X a day, or 16 oz,2X a day. If they have fine leafed hay and fresh grain in front of them every day, they will start in on that by 3-4 weeks of age,and get their rumens developing.I bought a bucket of milk replacer for $15.00, and it lasted one kid about a month, so the price of replacer you are quoting seems pretty high. I bought Purina kid replacer, so it wasn't the cheap kind. You could probably get the kids to survive on store milk,and deal with any scours, etc that come up, but whether they would reach their genetic potential on store milk is another question. It might be worth the cost, in the long run, to either buy another goat, or buy a reasonably priced replacer and supplement the goats milk with that.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 06, 2000.

Rebecca, have you read the list of ingredents on milk replacer, do you know that even the Houston Zoo does not use comercial milk replacer? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 06, 2000.

I bought some replacer from one of the feed stores here that comes out of Blackburn TX. I can't remember the name tho, and they have a two parter, colostrum which has animal protein in it and the "second stage" which is terrifically sugary. They used to have a brand called Uni milk that wasn't so expensive, nor so sweet, but they have stopped carrying it at the feed stores and at Wally World.

The kids are 3 1/2 weeks and 5 weeks. They like the alfalfa hay and are in a small ish "pasture" ( actually the half of my garden that I didn't have time to plant this year, about thirty x fifty feet) and eating some grasses and volunteer sunflowers, etc. They seem to have no interest in the concentrates at all. They pick on some oats and sunflower, but won't eat the pellets or corn. I haven't had any problems with diarrhea or soft stools with them, but I thought that they were supposed to get 4 feedings of 12oz each at this stage, and I don't get quite that much milk from my doe.

If I just augment my doe's milk with non BGH whole cow milk, which would just be like 12-16oz per day more, would you all think it should be, okay?

The reason that I am so hypochondriac like about all of this is that the matriarch of my whole herd had abcesses in her udder and most likely CAE as well and I am doing my best to raise these guys up in a preventative fashion, at least until I can test them all for the CL and CAE viruses. I want them to be healthy, and I don't want to sell an animal that may be CL/CAE+ to some 4H kid just to save my pocket book for now.

Thanks for your thoughts on this and Thanks to Countryside for this forum!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 07, 2000.

Doreen, my eldest (10 Years) doe Poptart was raised on cattle colostrum and grocery store milk, because when she was purchased I was new into showing, had recently auctioned all of my stock from the last 4 years, not so much because of CAE but because I was caught in the middle of the big Nubain lie on paperwork, buck dead for years, registering does anyway etc. If you have been in Nubains for at least 9 years you know who I am talking about. Anyway, Poptart kidded at 10 with triplets and is milking 8 pounds as of May 1st. She is also CAE negative still, as of Feb 1st, course you know how I feel about that, would be different if she had been sold as an older doe and was 10 at your house and still negative :) Topping off bottles will not hurt anything! My kids rarely eat much grain at 3 and 1/2 weeks, though we do have some feed in the feeders, some nibbling at the oats or barley, but thats it. They will pick up leaves, sometimes big old oak leaves, bigger than their head! They will eat the leaves off of alfalfa and the finer stems of grass hay. But it really is 6 weeks before I would call it eating grain. We feed 3 16 ounce bottles, Lambar, until we wean at 12 weeks. They are all aggressively growning and eating by then, even quad kids are at the 35 pounds we want the whole pen before weaning. Most of the Nubains and a really nice group of my daughters LaManchas were all in the 40's when weaned at 12 weeks, last week. After you absorb so much information, and read as much as you can, just sit back and say, this is my management and this is what works for me, and stick to it! Vicki McGaugh

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

Yes, I have read, and didn't care for, the ingredients on the replacer,however,it hasn't killed them,and the alternatives were to feed them nothing,or to drive 30 miles for CAE negative goat's milk every few days.(we don't have a freezer, or I would have preferred to buy that milk and freeze it several gallons at a time) As soon as my does freshened,I took them off of the replacer. I personally don't care for replacer(it even smells funny) or for bottle feeding in general,(being a great believer in breast feeding for human babies) but it is a fact, that many quality herds do feed replacer, some even go so far as to feed CALF replacer!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 07, 2000.

Exactly the reason for Doreen to top them bottles off with Whole Vitamin D Grocery Store Milk! Using milk replacer as long as it doesn't kill them? Of course the best food for the kids is goat milk, but the second best is cow milk, from the cow or grocery store. Now in large herds where volumes of milk are needed, perhaps because milk is being sold, then milk replacer is an option, but not in the case of 2 kids. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

Vicki,

In case I ever need to use store bought cow milk please take a minute, I know you are busy too, and explain how to feed it. Do you feed it straight or add anything? I know you probably mentioned it in a earlier post but man... those posts are long, i just skimmed them. Thanks.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 07, 2000.

Doreen, yeah I am kind of long winded aren't I! Sorry. We do tell our customers to use a vitimin and mineral supplement, like Red Cell, Whole Milk Fortifier, or any of the new goat/lamb Nutri drenches. I even use these products with goats milk since I pasturise, you have to be killing beneficial vitimins and minerals also. The only real vitimins in Grocery store milk would be levels of A&D since it has been already added. We feed it straight, warmed, and with WMF in it. Thats how Poptart was raised. WMF is ordered through Jeffers. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Actually, I thought the list of ingredients in Hoegger's Kid milk replacer was pretty impressive...contained traces of Copper, Selenium, E, A, D vitamins...no soy protein. Also had live cultures of lactobacillus and acidophilus (the same stuff in probios). I mixed it 50-50 with store bought cow's milk...kids did fine. I think it all boils down to personal experiences that form strong opinions sometimes. Some kids even fail to grow and prosper feeding from the dam...a lot boils down to the breeding, health and sturdiness of the stock in general and the individual kid specifically. I agree, tho, mom's milk is the best choice. After that, you do what has worked for you...on this, everyone has a different opinion. I think more rests on your following a regular feeding schedule, not overfeeding, and cleanliness rather than what you are feeding them...(within reason, of course!)

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), May 08, 2000.

Hoeggers, Land O Lakes and to a lesser extent Purina Kid Milk Replacer, problem is, you aren't going to get folks to spend the money on these, and they will take your information and then purchase cattle milk replacer in 50 pound bags, their goats are sick, scoured, pinched and dieing, and then it is "you sold me sick stock". It's just eaiser all the way around to just say, feed them grocery store milk. A convienent product that is clean, always the same and isn't going to scour anything! But I do so love the way you come in and calm us down! Don't wait so long to post! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Thanks Vickie!

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.