I am sending this here in hopes that any of you that raise Nubians might be able to help this child value his herd. Remember how it was when you were young and lost a pet. This kid must be really grieving. I don't pass along just anything but this one touched my heart.

> The Hall's e-mail address is: > > > >  rkwqhall@zianet.com > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:13 AM > > > > Subject: We need your help > > > > > Ron, > > > > > I am writing you this letter with great sorrow and horror. > > > My 13 year old son has been raising Nubians for the last 5 years. He > > > loves his goats with all his heart. They are his life. He has worked > > > very hard at bettering his herd. He has raised babies for the bottle, > > > improved his breeding program, and was working on becoming CAE > > > certified, the works. He was even home schooling so he could be with > > > his herd, show and love them all the time. They were his life and > > > dream. > > > Well, last Sunday his dream was crushed. While we were at a horse > > > show, his entire herd of Nubians were attacked and killed by two Bull > > > Mastiff's. To our great despair the doges were found trapped in our barn > > > still on their killing spree, when the Sheriff's arrived. Wesley lost > > > all his momma's and babies. Three mom's were to kid this month. One on > > > Mother's day. I am now faced with putting my son back together. > > > I spent two days cleaning blood and stuff out of our pasture and > > > barn. I took my 5 days to get my son to come home. Now he is lost. > > > All his babies, as he called all his goats were gone, all but one Mini > > > Nubian. Quinn, our mini, was found with our Mini horse. Sonny, our > > > pony, laid in the pasture for over two hours while the Sheriff's were > > > taking pictures, when they approached him to photo him, they scared him > > > and he jumped up. Only to reveal Quinn. They have destroyed her face > > > and neck. She is in serious condition and is still in shock. Yesterday > > > was the first day my son saw his only surviving baby. It was also the > > > first day Quinn ate or drank. They needed each other. If it hadn't > > > been for Sonny, she sould probably be gone as well. They are now > > > unseparable. > > > Now we are faced with the fact that the dogs are still alive and may > > > be released. We are asking for your help. Our lawyer wants us to come > > > up with as many lists of goats and their values as possible. We had > > > mautre milkers, yearlings, and this year babies. We had Grand and > > > Reserve Champions. First place babies. These were more than just > > > goats. They were my son's dream. > > > We need all the help we can get. I am asking you to please help a > > > child and his dream. Please send us any info you can on you herd. Your > > > herd's value and any goats you have for sale and their price. > > > Please feel free to e-mail this to any Nubian Lovers. We need > > > everyone's help. Please e-mail us or send to > > > > > Robby & Kortney Hall > > > North Star Farms > > > 501 Gavilan Canyon > > > Ruidoso, NM 88345 > > >

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 14, 2000

Answers

This is heartbreaking. It brings tears to my eyes.It is hard to imagine the kind of grief this boy must be going through. For those of you who were wondering why I shoot at any stray dogs that wander onto our place, this is why.It fills me with rage to know that those dogs might go free after something like this- what will it be next, somebody's child?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 15, 2000.

Oh what a fragile existence we lead ! A lifetime of work, joy,tears,sweat,success and failures ripped apart and gone with one random disaster. I am touched by this ! I think the question was value ? The value will be in rebuilding of a 13 year olds self esteem. It is my hope and belief that any boy with enough fortiude to stick with his hobby animals for 5 years will find the shear guts to raise himself out of the ashes of dispair and loss and rebuild his herd. I know I ask a lot from children but this one learned one of life's hardest lessons early. LIFE AIN"T FAIR ! I have "high hopes" for this child and Thank You, little bit farm for sharing this with us. It made all my petty problems look small in comparison this Monday morning. MY prayers and hopes go out to the last two survivors-- a boy and his dream.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 15, 2000.

Very very sad. How can they even consider releasing these dogs? No way! I am both saddened and angry by this.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), May 15, 2000.

I just thought I'd add, I e-mailed the family involved. Let them know the value of my one Nubian and told them I was praying for their little boy. They returned a very grateful letter. I agree with Joel. It is these kinds of things in life that make us stronger. Hard lessons sometimes have to be learned. This little boy is learning how to get over losing a friend. Something that will be invaluable in the future. He is also learning how to put a business back together after a loss. All in all very good lessons and a very hard way to learn them.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 15, 2000.

Oh goodness,, I am so sorry for your loss. But this is also why I will shoot any dog that is on my property.No questions No chances,, because those dogs sure don`t give me any chances. All of us Livestock people really need to get together and change the Rules of Dogs in this country. I for one am tired of turning the other cheek. Most of Us livestock people, comtribute food to this country one way or another. But we must always shoulder the cost of those same peoples dogs killing our Livestock. And its not getting any better. We need tougher Dog Laws. Really Large fines for owners that have their dogs kill. And really large fines to the state if the stray dogs aren`t picked up the minute anyone sees one on the road sides. Dogs that Harass, bite, or Kill ONCE,any thing or anyone, be put down, no exceptions. Maybe then people might think twice,, or maybe learn some manners. Sorry to sound so harsh,, But my children, my livestock and me for that matter have the right to live, with out domestic dogs trying to hurt or kill us. Dogs should NOT have rights over any other living thing. And if people cannot guarntee that they would be able to keep their dogs on their place, they should not have dogs at all.

-- Bergere (autumn Haus@aol.com), May 15, 2000.

All the livestock that has been killed on our place, has been killed by stray dogs (except by one possum). We have taken up shooting any stray dogs on our place! The dogs that have killed our livestock--- the family just keeps getting more! They don't feed them, get their shots or even give them water! A Stray dog is shot on our land! The dog that killed our livestock has also chased kids in town & a handicapped man! It is doing everyone a favor when dogs that aren't cared for are shot! Before they hurt a person/ along with the livestock! The dogs that are dumped in our area we shoot! We don't have animal control---my friend that runs animal welfare in large city close to us --say, they will just put them down if we try to catch them & haul them in to the shelter--so why not shoot them & save everyone a lot of problems! No one wins when dogs run free & kill livestock! If the dogs weren't running on my property & after my livestock I wouldn't have to be forced into shooting them! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 15, 2000.

Everyone here is blaming just the dogs for this tragedy. Unfortunately dogs have instinctual behavior just like goats that get out and eat neighbors's gardens. The RESPONSIBILITY rests with the owners of these animals. The ones that let them run loose, the ones that let them breed indiscriminately so that there is a surlpus population. The laws need to punish the OWNERS not just the animal. Hit them in their pocketbooks, bar them from having pets, make them clean up all the blood and guts. If people were more responsible there would be a lot less of these horrible acts.

-- teresa (teresam@ascent.net), May 15, 2000.

I can't help practically the way the rest of you can with local knowledge, but I have sent a message "from Australia" which may be some consolation.

My personal feeling is that, worldwide, people are no longer accepting personal responsibility as they used to; and society appears to be eager to absolve them of their responsibility. It used to be, if your dog even killed someone else's chicken, you would feel ashamed both that the animal had been insufficiently trained and insufficiently restrained; and particularly that that damage had been done to that neighbour, and to their stock. Of course, you would ensure that it was impossible for it ever to happen again - a permanent solution to the problem of that killer dog. There was a recognition too of the fact that a killer dog IS a killer - once they have felt the excitement of a killing frenzy, you can never rely on them not to do it again, or to something else - say a toddler. In fact, the same answer would apply to any dog which made an UNPROVOKED attack on a child - of course children can tease or be cruel, but also there are dogs which can't seem to restrain themselves when confronted by a toddler.

This was not to say that you couldn't try to train your own dog not to kill your own chickens; but if they ever even once branched out to other people's stock, you would ensure it never happened again.

My personal belief is that there can be no reason or excuse for private individuals to keep killer dogs - pit bull terriers or bull mastiffs or Rottweilers or anything similar. It is in these dog's nature to kill, and sooner or later they will attempt to do that.

I have met Rottweilers which are beautiful-natured and friendly. They should be dead. The reason is that you can't rely on them to remain good-natured. By nature they are hair-triggered killers, and friendly though they may always be, they are only a second away from killing someone, and it is in their nature to do so. About three years ago a pack of Rottweilers ate an eighty year-old woman in Australia, on her land, going to her home. She had rented a second residence to the animal's owners, the dogs became possessive of "their land", were allowed to roam free (and in fact their owners were not at home), she came home, they attacked her, and then - well, they couldn't just waste all that meat, could they now?

Again, personal opinion - there should be a classification of "killer dogs", and anyone who keeps them should be liable for whatever they do AS IF IT WAS A DELIBERATE ACT - in fact, it was deliberate to keep killer dogs, there was always the possibility/probability that attacks would happen, they deliberately chose to keep the dogs even in that light, they SHOULD be held responsible for the effects of their deliberate actions AS deliberate actions.

All of which is not an attack on working dogs, or well-trained well- restrained dogs, or even Rottweilers - but on irresponsible individuals.

End of rant.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 16, 2000.

I'm sorry that this happened. Something similar happened to friends of mine that had just purchased dairy goats only to find their neighbor's dogs managed to get into the pen they had thought dog proof and killed the lot. I still don't understand why he didn't shoot them dead when he found the dogs, still in the pens with the dead goats, and then call the sheriff. I was looking forward to getting some experience with their goats myself as the last time I did any serious work with the animals was twenty years ago.

My dog runs free on my place and I've built our hen house with her in mind to keep her out of it. The dog I need to watch the house and as she wasn't raised with hens I'm not going to put her in a position where she'll do what comes natural if she came across the chickens running loose. If I found she was killing the neighbor's chickens, goats or what have you I'd shoot her myself but I do try to make sure she stays clear of other folks animals. She's my dog, my responsibility and if she kills somebody's animal on their land then I'll have to settle up. If you don't like that proposition then you have no business owning dogs.

Don Armstrong wrote:

My personal belief is that there can be no reason or excuse for private individuals to keep killer dogs - pit bull terriers or bull mastiffs or Rottweilers or anything similar. It is in these dog's nature to kill, and sooner or later they will attempt to do that.

You cover a lot of territory there. I don't keep any of those kinds of dogs because they don't suit my needs but there are other folks who do - the vast majority of whom will never harm anybody. Provided they're willing to take responsibility of having them then it's their business. There's not a dog breed of a size big enough to physically do so that won't attack stock or people under the wrong circumstances. A quite literal nine out of every ten Dalmatians I've ever met has tried to bite me, the breed is known for being surly. I've had a Golden Retriever do his damndest to chew my boot off and if I hadn't brained him with an axe handle he would have. I do happen to have a scar on my right leg from a Rottweiler that bit me and I put the fear of God into the owner who was overjoyed to be allowed to pay for all medical expenses. I was a cyclist for years and all bike riders have dog problems from time to time.

I think a more severe handling of folks who keep dogs that are prone to attacking is the way to go but the government, at least here in the U.S., has no business telling anybody what breed of dog they can and cannot own. The government can and should criminally prosecute folks whose dogs wrongfully kill other peoples animals if they don't promptly settle up or that attack people going about their lawful business. If you're breaking into my house and my dog chews your hand off that's your tough luck.

.........Alan.

The Prudent Food Storage FAQ, v3.5

http://www.ProvidenceCo-op.com

-- A.T. Hagan (athagan@netscape.net), May 16, 2000.

I saw a list once of the ten dog breeds that are most likely to bite or attack someone.I don't remember all the breeds,but Rottwielers were near the top of the list,also wolf hybrids,pitbulls, chows were on there.It has since been my experience that these same breeds are the most likely to attack livestock. I was surprised to see that dobermans were not on that list! I have a friend who once bred dobies, and she says that they are not instinctively mean, but have to be taught to bite out of fear.Has anyone else seen that list?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 16, 2000.

This story really saddened me. A terrible situation for an adult to deal with, unbearable for a child. There are so many negative things that boy could have been doing with his time and instead he was working so hard to accomplish something. I don't understand why these dogs are being released, around here they would have been put down. But the ultimate responsibility belongs to the "owners" of the dogs. Cases involving animals aren't taken seriously by most courts, that's something that needs to be changed. Those people have a moral, if not legal, obligation to pay damages. But that will never erase what has happened from the boy's memory.

Unlike many of you, I won't shoot a stray dog unless they've done something awful, and fortunately, that's never happened. With sheep, I know that someday I may face what that boy faced. Until then, I won't shoot. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 16, 2000.

First of all, let me offer my condolences to a youngster who reminds me of myself when I was raising goats during junior high school.

Second, I do not want us to forget the fact that, individually, dogs behave very differently than when they are running in packs. Even the "non-killer" breeds will get nasty when they are running with other dogs. I have heard stories of the smallest dogs actually leading packs as the alpha male.

I couldn't help but notice that the horror story from Australia involved a pack of animals.

-- Mike O (olsonmr@yahoo.com), May 16, 2000.