This query is aimed at the MARP Rules Co-ordinators. I`ve recently sent in a score on Hypersports using MAME 36 Final. Now it seems that when using this version for recording, any previous ' world records' on each event are still there during the recording. The only difference this makes is that it`s possible to get more score on the 1st round Pole Vault. I don`t know if later versions of MAME have this feature , but I`m fairly sure that earlier versions don`t. It`s the same for T+F and Robotron , and maybe others ?

I`d like to think that it would be OK to continue doing this. After all it`s more akin to arcade conditions, hence proper scoring. It also gives one a chance to beat any TG arcade scores on this game (HS). Granted that most scores for HS are old and did not have the advantage of possibly getting more score, I still feel that it should be allowed. Having said that, I think that only a handful of players would give a crap, as I think myself, Tommi, and Game Guru are the only ones who play the game :)

QT , watcha think ?

AL

-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), July 04, 2000

Answers

Well, I'd like to hear from Game Guru and Tommi as well then. I'll try to look into this matter sometime this week. I have a lot of work that I need to upload to MARP as the present moment, but I promise I'll get around to having a look.

Q.T.Quazar

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), July 04, 2000.

This is just a shot in the dark, but do you think if you remove the cfg and nvram files the hi scores will clear? Is the polevault the only score affecting round?

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), July 04, 2000.

The Pole Vault is the only event were score would be affected. The deletion of the files you mentioned may remove the hi`s , but I`d prefer to keep them as they are. That was my whole point. Someday I`d like to beat Kelly K`s Arcade record , using MAME ( I know it`s not quite the same, but what the hell ). It`s a bit easier if the hi`s aren`t reset. It`s also on an even playing field with an arcade machine.

I`m sure Tommi + Game Guru will agree on this. Guys??!!

AL

-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), July 05, 2000.

hyperspt.nv definitely has to be deleted before playing back. The score may be different if you don't do that. If you want to keep your scores, you don't have to delete it when recording, but temporarily rename it when playing back. The score you get on the playback is the "correct" one.

The reason is that the mole will not appear on the pole vault when you get a top 3 jump. So during the first round, your latest submission will not show any moles when hyperspt.nv is deleted, because almost all jumps beat a previous top 3 jump. But if you play it back a 2nd time without deleting hyperspt.nv, you'll see a lot of moles (and of course the bonuses that come with it). This can make quite a difference:

I deleted hyperspt.nv, then played back your recording. The score was 359,060. Then I played it back again without deleting hyperspt.nv (so keeping the one from the first playback), and the score was 378,060!

I think the NVRAM files are the cause of a lot of recordings (not just Hyper Sports) not playing back correctly (of course, Hyper Sports plays back correctly, but the score may be different). So I strongly advise people to delete the NVRAM file for the game they're about to play right before they start recording. This of course only applies to the later versions of MAME (i.e. the ones that use NVRAM). I think this started with 36b14.

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), July 06, 2000.

Sorry my late response, better later than never though?

I fully agree with you Alex. This makes mame scores comparable to TG ones, as keeping records was the situation at arcade records too. Whattabout keeping WRs on Dos mame ver 36, does it work? nv-file is on Windows wersion only? I've sorta given up on T&F at the moment(can only jump over 2.47-2.48 with my lousy keyboard). It really would be nice to beat that Kelly's score on HP though, all I need is a hotrod now(yeah, still haven't ordered it) and some serious practice sessions.

Kelly's HP score is definitely beatable using no-breath-trick on swimming, that allows you to swim much faster. If you want to know the secret of the trick check out: http://arcadeforever.emuverse.com/ The trick is not very easy to pull off, but doable with some practise. The key is to time third underwater-breath-push exactly at right time(coming into surface). Trick works on arcade machine too, I tried it two times at Funspot and succeeded on both occasions, hahaa!

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), July 10, 2000.

As I have already indicated, the final score depends on the .nv file. More exactly: The better the top 3 on the individual events, the higher your final score will be. Since we should have a standard to go by (so that the score will be the same regardless of who plays the recording back), that leaves only two possibilities: (1) The final score is the one that is achieved when deleting the .nv file first and then playing back the recording. (2) The final score is the one that is achieved using the .nv file of the person who recorded it. (Well, a third would be to always use some standard .nv file, but (1) is merely a special case of that, and (1) is a lot easier to do.)

The first clearly is the one we should go by. I can immediately think of several arguments against using the second alternative:

- We have been talking recently about confirmers not having to jump through a lot of hoops to get a recording to play back. Copying someone else's .nv file first (and making a backup of your own, in case you don't want to lose your own scores), then, afterwards, restoring your own is more work then simply temporarily renaming your own .nv file (if there is any to start with) and later on restoring it.

- Alex Weir claimed a score of 362,060 on Hyper Sports, and I have no doubt that that was really the score he got when he recorded it. However, if he had played it back then (without deleting the .nv file), he would have seen his own recording produce a score of 378,060. Had he then included the .nv file resulting after that playback with his .inp, he could have claimed a score of 378,060. Obviously, this is a very easy way to "artificially" get a higher score, and there is no real way of detecting it, except if the person using this trick overlooks one simple thing. Again, Alex, clearly you did not do this (or else you would have claimed 378,060), so please do not take this the wrong way. I am merely using your recording as an example.

- Take the previous point one step further: Download a lot of different "good" Hyper Sports .inps, play them all back without deleting the .nv file in between, and, lo and behold, you'll end up with an .nv file containing a lot of great top 3 times/scores on the individual events. Then record a Hyper Sports recording yourself, and all the work done by others will result in you getting a higher score. Is that fair? No. Is it detectable? No. Unless, again, the person doing this overlooks one simple thing.

So: In the case of Hyper Sports, the .inp will play back correctly, regardless of whether the .nv file is deleted first or not. The only thing that may differ is the final score. If you don't want to lose all your scores, then, at least in the case of Hyper Sports, don't delete the .nv when you start recording, but temporarily rename it before you play back your own, and claim the score that results from that playback. Then you can restore your old .nv file and you won't have lost any of your scores, while at the same time keeping the playing field even.

As a final note: I don't know if the actual machine behaves the same way, so if, on the actual machine, getting a top 3 height on pole vault will never cause the mole to appear, but if so, then the TG people may have to have another look at the rules for getting and accepting world records on Hyper Sports. Because, assuming the actual machine behaves the same way, the following scenario is possible: Let's say Alex Weir starts a game of Hyper Sports on an actual arcade machine that has just been reset. At the same time, I start a game on a different machine, one that has really great top 3 times/scores on every single event.

Now, Alex is a much better player than I am at Hyper Sports, so let's say that on EVERY SINGLE EVENT, he does at least as good as I, or even better. And let's say that for both of us, the game is over at the 5th round long horse. There is a chance then that, even though I never outperformed Alex on a single event, my final score will be higher than his... . Clearly this is not fair. And, clearly, not everyone has access to a Hyper Sports machine on which the top 3 on every event is very good. This makes the playing field uneven. This makes it possible to break a world record while never performing better on any single event than the previous world record holder. Since this "trick" of getting higher scores is not available to everyone, it should not be allowed. So, I repeat, in my opinion, the TG people should have another look at, and revise the rules for Hyper Sports world records. (Again, assuming that the mole on pole vault works the same way on the actual machine as on MAME.)

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), July 10, 2000.

Mmm , ok lets see. If I understand correctly this is what I have to do to submit a 'true' recording.

1) Record + play as normal, not deleting the .nv file

2) Rename (temporarily) the .nv file and then playback my recording.I should see an EXACT replay of my game , score-wise.

3) Zip that INP as per usual + send it in.

4) and if I want to get my scores back, simply restore the.nv.

So if I perform steps 1-3 , the score that is sent in will be the exact score that I got? No extra moles/score? Does it matter what I temporarily rename the .nv file to ?

It`s just that I`ve a week off work, and I`d like to be sure about this, cos I`ll be playing lots of Hyper Sports. After all, I don`t wanna great a good score only for it to be 'reduced'.

But thanks to Ben Jos + Chad for taking the time to figure this out.

As for the arcade scenario , the Pole Vault is the ONLY event that makes a difference score-wise. Take Ben Jos' example. I play a machine with reset records, and Ben Jos plays a machine with the top three Pole Vault records at 5.94m. On the first round I will only have a chance to get two moles. And depending on how high I can jump on the first round will determine how many moles I can try for on the 2nd round, and so on. Ben Jos' however will have about 13 attempts at moles per round ( remember his machine has 5.94m as top 3 ), so basically, yes...the higher the Pole Vault records the easier it is to get more score. But you`ll find that in almost every arcade, the records on Pole Vault were at least 5.93m.

I gotta go ( in work + caught red-handed...)

AL

-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), July 11, 2000.

Ben Jos, The machine I played at arcades didn't remember records, and was one round only. Nevertheless we had fierce competition: specific event records and overall score stayed in our heads. As I've advertised before my one round score was about 190K, which requires approx 10 moles in a row. Machine didn't keep records after the place closed, but during the day(usually on the first game)we lifted Pole Vault records high enough to get all moles possible. That ruined only our first game of the day, overall scorewise. So HP doesn't reset scores after every game.

The machine was set on "don't keep records" mode. If it had been set on "keep records", the event records and overall score would have been there after shutdown too, next day.

As said before, it's only Pole Vault records that have effect to overall score. At arcades it takes only one game(ok, maybe two sometimes) to rise those records high enough for massive mole scoring. Maybe "Alex" could have lost the first game, but had scored much more on the next one.

If hi-files are not kept, then mame-scores are not equal to arcade ones. Kelly's score can't be beaten...not even by himself.

Yes, playing a recording should be made easy as possible but is it really a big job to drag nv file to your desktop and back when watching an inp. It's fun to see players' event records too, and maybe try to beat them later.

Rules are for breaking, my opinion is to let HP(and why not TF too) scores be played with nv-files.

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), July 11, 2000.

I'd say if this were a competition (and it is), you'd want all players to be at equal starting points. nvram files corrupt the starting points for players, removing them makes everyone start at the same place. it's just as hard to remove the nvram file before playback for windows users that have already played the game they are playing back, so there's a minor playback benefit at best. i think nvram files should be removed so no one has an advantage because they can score higher on the polevault before the make the recording...

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), July 11, 2000.

Alex: No. When you play back your recording after temporarily renaming your .nv file (no, it doesn't matter what you rename it to), your score will probably be lower than the score you got when you recorded it.

Tommi: Sure, it may be fun to see other people's scores, but you already get to see most of those when playing back the recording. For people who are really good at this game, it may be fun to try to beat the other player's scores/times, but people who are not that good, will want to see their own progress, and not have to deal with records set by others.

Do you prefer that only you have to go through a little extra trouble when submitting a recording, or do you want to keep it easy on yourself but make it harder for everyone who watches your recording? I think it's unfair to make it harder on everyone else but yourself. Just like the person who submits a score should do some extra work in verifying that what he uploads is correct, he should also make sure that it is as easy as possible for others to play back his recording.

If you're really interested in .nv files, then you can always include your own in your submissions and e-mail people like Alex Weir to get a copy of theirs. However, I think that the people interested in other people's .nv files form a minority.

Almost all games in MAME are automatically reset to the status a machine that has just been turned on is in. Why should Hyper Sports be an exception.

Rules are made to be broken? We have doing our best to set rules so that the playing field is even for everyone. If you want to break rules, why not allow RLH again? Why not allow pausing again? Why not allow slowdown again? Why not allow autofire again? Etcetera. Sorry, but I think the "rules are made to be broken" statement is not a very smart one in this context.

Here's a nice "trick" that you're allowing if you don't take the score that results from a deleted/renamed .nv file: Submit a recording that has to be played back with your own .nv file, then sit back and wait for other people to submit scores with their .nv files. Take a few good recordings, play them back on your own computer without using their .nv files, and without deleting your own, thus ending up with a "better" .nv file of yourself. Then take your own old recording and resubmit it with that new .nv file. Great, isn't it? Last week I uploaded a recording and my score was 400k. Today, I upload the exact same recording, but with a different .nv file, and my score is 420k?

So if we accept the score resulting with the included .nv file, then it becomes a matter of first playing back several recordings to end up with a nice set of scores/times, and then start recording yourself. Again, you could get a higher score by using the recordings of others. This has nothing to do with the skill of the person who uploads the score. Part of his score will be a result of the skill of others.

I understand that the experts will want to score as high as possible on this game, but not requiring the .nv file to be deleted/renamed in determining the final score has way too many loopholes and opportunities for cheating to be even worth the discussion, IMO.

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), July 11, 2000.

Alright, I`ve heard enough. I once again thank Ben Jos and Skito for their input. It`s too confusing an issue for me. So from now on, I`ll use MAME36 beta 11 , which when recording, uses the normal INP procedure..i.e records/scores are set to 'reset mode' , if you will. It means I`ll lose out on a lot of potential score on 1st round, but what the hell.

Maybe getting scores using this method will set a precedent. I`m fairly sure the TG WR on this game (arcade) was gotten wherby the 1st round Pole Vault top 3 were @5.93m, hence extra score. Thats one for the TG judges. This is an Action Replay site, and therefore what you record is what other people should see. I`ve no probs with that. So therefore any score you see from me on this game will be as if the arcade machine was set to " erase on reset"..i.e doesn`t record WR`s/scores etc....( less potential score ).

538k ? Yes , possible even using this method.

Thanks for everyones input.

AL

-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), July 11, 2000.

Ben Jos: This boy is dangerous, everyone else sees it, why can't you? I think you still didn't get the idea behind HP arcade scoring. Thank you for your effort anyway.

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), July 12, 2000.

Tommi: I think I do see it, but I think you don't see how easy it is to cheat if you let everybody submit scores using their own .nv file. After all, you and Alex were the ones screaming the loudest about all the cheating going on in T&F and Hyper Sports...

I had a discussion with Alex on IRC yesterday night, and I pointed out one or two more ways of cheating that I have not mentioned here. I think Alex and I agreed that we didn't want to open the door for cheating again, especially not after all the trouble we went through in cleaning these games up, and that deleting the .nv file is by far the lesser of two evils.

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), July 12, 2000.

WOW! I just confirmed Alex's hyprolym84 score of 431K, even if I don't have inp-checker. Great playing, especially triple jump, long horse and skeets. Surely not long way to WR! All you need is 5th round finished, couple 8K moles, and that's it! It will not be easy to get past 3 first events of 5th round though.

Alex, you get great speed on weightlifting and triplejump, on long horse 11 rounds, huhhuh. You commented you got fingers working, does this mean you are no longer using joystick for running?

Alex lost only 5K because of low pole records on first round(surely he didn't even go for 1050's), and on second 3K. =8K, which is not much, but could have been lots more on first round. I remember Krogman said Kelly failed on 5th round skeets, so he must have had a load of moles and perfect skeets.

Alex, I think you should ask Longridge how to deal with nv-files on mame. My solution is to send him a nv-file, where lowest pole record is 5.93 (or any height you can do). That would emulate arcade situation on settings "don't reset highscores" After you've send it, you can afterwards use any nv-file you wish, as long you don't jump more than 5.93, because you've proven already that "machine" you are playing with has lowest pole record of 5.93.

If someone thinks you could have recorded only one inp with 5.93, and played it back three times(this must be one loophole that BJ mentioned), send him 3 different nvrams all having a record of 5.93. I think this is waterproof, and propably takes you 30-120 minutes.

Easiest way to use nvrams would be copying your nvram before each game, I assume it's possible to check when nvram/inp are accessed simply checking file/properties( to see that nvram is not made after the actual inp). But there is a loophole in this, quite obvious, I don't bother to mention it here. Good "luck" on your attempt Alex, may the moles be with you. I'll go and playback your 400K now :)

p.s. Maybe using nvram-file it's possible to start on "random" levels at Gauntlet 1&2, after those early levels that is.

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), July 13, 2000.

Thanks Tommi, Kind words indeed. Yes. If I can get by 5th round ( which I should have on 431k game) I can beat Kellys' score. No probs. I just need to improve my Skeet Shooting a bit. The fact that I`m losing-out on some potential 1st round 'mole' score is a bummer, but what the hell. All this 'NVRAM' stuff is beyond me. And theres apparently a lot of possible cheating/loopholes involved also ???

Don`t wanna be accused of any of this, so I`ll opt for a MAME version which simulates an arcade machine set to 'erase on reset'.

Remember, 538k on my old machine would struggle for a top ten place, so 1st round moles apart, this score is there for the taking. Just gotta get 'lucky' I guess !

Fingers ? Hell, I`ve got two blisters after hours of non-stop play. Oh, I always use buttons for HS..( don`t ask ). Gotta give it a break for a day or two though.....( ouch )

Later

AL

-- AL (alexweir@indigo.ie), July 14, 2000.