Dear All, I have a problem that I have been churning over for quite some time, well a few actually. I tend to trust people more than I should, I am learning to my dismay. I did believe that I should give people a chance to prove themselves right or wrong before I make a personal judgement. Now it seems as though I must let them prove themselves to be honorable efore I trust them. I raise animals, and in doing so I make dealings with all kinds of people. The first one that I am having a problem with is this.

I needed a Saanen buck for my herd, so I looked in the A.D.G.A. for the names and numbers of breeders that had Saanens close as possible to my area. I only found one such person, she told me that she had a buck that she was going to have to sell from excellent lines (which they are), as he was already bred to everything (at the time I did not know enough to take her literally) she had.

I also told her that I was looking for any good would be milkers that she knew of in any of the other breeds also. It came down to I purchased a Purebred Saanen and a Purebred Alpine (neither of which were in milk but she said they were expecting) from her as well as the Saanen buck. I traded her a Purebred LaMancha doe who was bred, a pair of Nubian does, also bred, for the 2 Purebred does. For the buck I paid her $100.00 cash (when I picked up the goats)One seasons breeding (Which on the contract stated at my place and she changed it and Mailed it back saying that he would have to go to her place) and 7 wethers, which she was supposed to come and pick up in the fall, at which time our agreement for the buck will have been fulfilled and she would sign the papers for the buck over to me, in the interim she agreed to sign service memos for me as I needed them.

Now, this person lives about 10 hours away from me, and our vehicles are not in the best of shape. The original agreement stated that she would meet us in a city about 2 hours from us. We ended up going the whole distance as they decided that they could not meet us.

When we arrived at their home I could not believe what I saw. The does that we had written an agreement for (through the mail) were so thin that you could put a hand on either side of their loins and push in and touch your hands together. The Purebred Saanen was bleeding from her vulva. They were also being eaten alive with bloodsucking lice.

The buck was in a pen by himself, and was being fed better than the does, he still was full of lice. When I asked her why they were in such poor shape, she answered that they had only had the does back for a couple of weeks, and she did not know what kind of treatment they had had. It looked more like when we made the agreement that she had stopped feeding them.

This was all at the first of the year. I have sent her a S.A.S.E. and called her for the service memos, when I speak to her she says that she will send them, and still nothing. I wrote a letter to her as soon as we got home telling her that the animals were full of lice and that she may want to get the area cleaned and dip the animals. Now it is time for her to pick up the wethers that I have raised for her and taken care of, and I still do not have any service memos for the does that I did breed to him. She wants to pick him up and take him to breed back to her does.

It turns out that the Purebred Alpine doe that I got from her was bred to this buck also. She bore a little girl for me who is pure white.

I finally called A.D.G.A. 3 days ago as I am very concerned about this matter and I wanted to get some advice. They told me that they would take the info on the matter and investigate it. In other words, it would be filed as a complaint. This is not what I wanted to do but I went ahead and did it. I do not want to see this buck go back there, and the only reason that I left the animals that I traded to her there and continued to carry out the agreement was because she said that she had those animals sold already, and I could tell that the ones that I got from her were going to die if not taken care of.

So now you know one of the dealings with people that I have that are bothering me. What would you do? What would you have done? Please help as I feel terrible for having to file a complaint, I was actually shaking and crying as I talked with Merle Mills of A.D.G.A. I would greatly appreaciate your opinions.

P.S. All of the animals are doing fine now, with the exception of the buck being a little thin as it is breeding season. May God be with you always. Lawannea S. Stum.

-- Lawannea S. Stum (Whitedov1@citlink.net), August 28, 2000

Answers

To heck with your agreement...you should not send any animals to this woman! If you do, you will lay awake at night worrying about them and feeling guilty. It was not clear to me who owes who what, but I would simply tell her that the contract became void when she altered it, and therefore you're not honoring it. Is she really going to travel ten hours to come and hassle you about it? Also, I would tell her that you simply weren't comfortable with the way her animals are kept, and that's why you aren't giving her any of yours. Tell her if she wants to pursue it, go right ahead, but no animals are leaving your place with her. I bet she won't follow through with anything. If she doesn't have the sense or financial resources to feed her goats, then she probably doesn't have what it takes to hire a lawyer or start anything too serious.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 28, 2000.

not quit the same situation but....i had 9 goats i needed to get rid of a few so a guy working for us bought 3 does ;a mom her kid and a single. all was fine i thought, i got a call saying the doe got bit by a dog i went over ther{never been there before} i could have died! 26 dogs some chained some running not only was the goat bit she was riped apart! i get my vet over there and saved the goat, i have tried to get my animals back but they wont give them to me.{they love them?} i talked to animal control and it is a civil issue {passing the buck} i will need to take them to court. i have begged these folks to give me them at least until the build a better shelter they wont. i am not sure what to do, i have stopped by and they have improved the condition alot so i hope the animals will be ok. i think ignorance is their big problem they just dont know how to keep them. sorry i cant help but be real careful and trust no one.

when i sell pups unless i know the folks i go through a whole list of conditions w/ them and they sign it or they do not get a dog. i have learned to check drivers licenes you can tell if they live in an apartment or not. i had a man drive from new york state to pick up a pup, i told him of my guide lines over the phone and agreed, when he got here his daughter slipped and mentioned how they would need to hid the pup from the landlord until the lease was up in a year...they left w/ out a pup. be real careful who you deal with ask for references and phone #'s.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 28, 2000.

What a mess! This is a little confusing to me, but it sounds like you didn't see the animals before you made the agreement, and that you had only talked to the breeder over the phone ,not met her in person. Now this is just my opinion, but it's generally not a good idea it buy anything sight unseen, especially animals. Next time, it would be better to call the breeder (preferably one that you've heard good things about),and arrange to come and see what they have. I wouldn't commit to buying anything until you can take a look at the animals, the place they're living, and get a feel for the owner's personality. It sounds like you have a written agreement, so you should be able to get ADGA to transfer the papers into your name,once your end of the contract is fulfilled. Do NOT let her come and take that buck, at least not until it is clear that she is going to give you service memos and fulfill her end of the bargain. Is there any way that you could talk to her and just pay her cash for the balance on the buck, rather than all this bartering? You could take the wethers to the sale barn or auction, and know that they would be butchered soon, and then you wouldn't have to leave the buck at her place for a season's breeding. I would also try not to let on how upset I was with her, this doesn't sound like a good time to make her mad! It's fairly common for goats to have lice, especially in the winter when their coats are long. Did you get service memos on the two does that you bought from her? It sounds like since you signed a contract, that unless you can get her to change it so you can pay cash for the balance on the buck, you will have to follow through on your end of the deal to get the papers on that buck.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), August 28, 2000.

First each of the deals should have been made seperatly, not this whole series of deals. It's overwith and lice isn't the end of the world, and either is does kept thinner than the ideal. Now lets start from here. You are just being to nice. Call ADGA have them send you a pink buck service lease form. You fill this out when it gets to you to include all dates the buck was at your place, this will give you authority to fill out as many service memos, with your own signature as you want, it really makes you the owner of the buck during this time according to the computer. Tell her under no uncertain terms that you will not give her back the buck unless she signs this in front of you, no excuses, if she doesn't come and pick up her buck, and the wethers, than do not give her these animals. Hold him hostage so to speak :) I would also contact my directors and also go over to goathouse on Egroups.com and tell us the whole story with the breeders name and let us help you. Earlier this year I pressured with exposure a breeder to hand over service memo's over on Nubian Talk for a very well known breeder in Texas. I would also contact the arbitration committee myself since the office folks are so busy right now with paperwork and performance volumes coming out finally! I would love to help if you need further assistance! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 28, 2000.

CALL THE ASPCA!!

-- J. (earthfarm@aol.com), August 28, 2000.

You've gotten some good advise. There is no way that I would let this person have any of my animals at all, forget any agreement. Contracts are generally executed in good faith and the condition of the animals negates that good faith. Best of luck with this.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 28, 2000.

your post makes me feel like crying. I can't stand to think of any creature having food withheld; etc. You bet i would have filed a complaint! And taken pictures first! You see when we get pets, livestock, etc, we take on the responsibility of feeding, caring for, and keeping them healthy. They have no "voice" and, when kept in confines, DEPEND on us for their care. These folks were irresponsible for their care of living creatures!

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), August 29, 2000.

I think your complain was valid. Why are you so upset about it?? Talk to Vicki and see what other ideas she has.:) Good luck keep us posted!

-- Debbie T in N.C. (rdtyner@mindspring.com), August 29, 2000.

Dear All, I really appreaciate your answers and responses, It makes me feel as if I am not quite such an ogre. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I have not yet heard from A.D.G.A. or the other person in question.

I had forgotten about the lease slip from A.D.G.A. That was a great idea Vicki!

The reason that I feel so bad about "Tattling" on someone is that I have had people do similar things to me and for no good reason, and I always felt~ Why do they want to hurt me? and What have I done to them?, They see me working so hard, Why do they want to bring me down with them?~ It has somehow been brought to my attention that there are people that seem to want to hurt you if you look like you are the least bit sucessful in anything. Jealousy I guess.. Anyway I do not want to be one of these people, because I have been hurt by such actions and do not want to do the same to anyone. I guess that you are right Vicki, I am too soft!

Well God has blessed us yet again today with a nice gentle and very much needed rain. May God be with you always. Lawannea S. Stum of White Dove Ranch.

-- Lawannea S. Stum (Whitedov1@citlink.net), August 29, 2000.

Your situation is really quite confusing. BUT, I would not release the buck until you get the service memos.

Follow these rules in the future: 1. Always deal in person unless you know the breeder by reputation. 2. Try to see their place before you send any animals there. 3. Get the money up front, no papers sent until money is paid. 4. Trading stuff is never a good idea unless you know the people well. Then it should always be in writing. 5. You do not NEED to sell an animal if the people do not meet your standards. If I don't like the looks of the buyer I say I have nothing for sale. Of if I have an excellent, quality buck and they want to breed him to unregistered grade animal....no way. It would be a waste of the very good buck.

-- Barbara C. Fischer (cen12205@centurytel.net), August 31, 2000.

it seems to me that the person you are dealing with has already broken the contract from your description. by all means contact vicki to see what she can do to help. many of us are trying hard with our livestock and want to improve them by getting better bloodlines into the herd. i think you need to be careful when you do buy. another place to look might be in the breeders section in countryside. i know i may put to much faith in people that i think of as my countryside neighbors. but i do feel more comfortable when i know that they are. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), September 01, 2000.