I think we all need to know what rule there is for the time in the pc_games for mame. I mean the time limit (one credit a 300 ticks) is far to little for doing a "completed on default settings without any warps"

My suggestion is that multuple credits are allowed in (at least) games like smb, smb3 etc..

Just my two cents (or "kronor" in Swedish *lol*

coments??

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 07, 2000

Answers

I gotta agree with you QRS. It's more exciting to watch anyways in my opinion(especially when it comes to the racing games! woohoo! I love MAMEdev!)

Ahem...

GB9

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 07, 2000.

I vote to just forget the time limit...

It does not affect the skill you need for any of the games and to only have 300 ticks would take the fun out of it!

Anyway, have to fly to beat QRS'S mario score! ;-)

Here we go again....

GG

-- game guru (gameguru@cableinet.co.uk), September 07, 2000.

Please continue to play under the 300 time limit for the time being. I haven't had a chance to look at these games yet, but I will by this weekend, and the Editors will also discuss the issue on Sunday.

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 07, 2000.

Just my two cents.......

Pc_xxx games are console games, just console games. Is not like neogeo, neogeo games was designed for use in both arcade and console mode, nes games was designed for console use only.

I don't think that playchoice10 games shold be allowed in marp, console games are totally different to arcade games.

This is only my opinion of course.

-- Giovanni "Gby" solinas (tharon@tiscalinet.it), September 07, 2000.

I don't think that Playchoice-10 games should be allowed on MARP either. I don't think they should be in MAME either, but that's not the point. They are nothing like arcade games, since they are console games - except you had to pay to play them.

-- seymour (seymour@iname.com), September 07, 2000.

I have to agree, either use the 1 credit system or don't allow them in marp... if you want to see a recording the game load it up with credits and use Ben Jos's cat/pet/monkey to bang on the keys till you've won :)

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), September 07, 2000.

Its annoying as hell when your game ends when the timer expires... but MARP has always been about one credit/default settings. The default for these Playchoice 10 games is 300 ticks, so it should be left at that.

-- JSW (usagi@dingoblue.net.au), September 08, 2000.

I'm leaning in the same direction as Giovanni and Seymour... the PC-10 games don't really seem like arcade games, don't play as arcade games, and obviuosly aren't structured as arcade games--in direct contrast to the NeoGeo ones. Maybe we should archive PC-10s to allow competition to continue, as it seems strange to say no to Street Fighter Zero Changer, and yet allow these games in--particularly when Nintendo already has the arcade-only Vs. driver. I suspect MARP is going to be fairly split on this question, and I'm encouraged to see that the posts on the topic so far have been very civil.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 08, 2000.

If we don't allow more than 300 on the ticker players are going to have to start leeching points to gain a decent score within the time allowed.

As long as the default lives are used I really can't see a problem with it.

Anyway, we all have the same advantage when playing these games.

It would be sad to never see an .INP of a completed Mario recording on the marp scoreboard!!!

I thought the definition of 'Arcade Game' was a machine you put money into that lives in a Arcade, Pub, Club etc......

We all know they are 8 bit NES Games, so what the hell......

To have 300 ticks would just take all the skill away from making the records.....

Nuff said ;-)

GG

-- game guru (gameguru@cableinet.co.uk), September 08, 2000.

Regarding the whole Playchoice-10 thing... I must say that I like QT's suggestion best. "Archive" all the Playchoice 10 games and let the players buy as much time as they want. So if you want to show off on an NES game, go ahead... it just won't count for leaderboard points.

As QT noted, there are Vs. system games which are almost (but not quite) identical to the NES games, so I say we should wait until MAME has support for these. No messy time issues whatsoever. Sure, not all the Playchoice 10 games have Vs. equivalents... but as was mentioned before, the games will still have places on MARP for uploading.

Off the record, I don't see what all the fuss over recording Super Mario Bros. inps is. Any MARP'er that owned an NES owned SMB and no doubt finished it... so what's the big deal? I certainly am in no hurry to watch an .inp of it. But that's just me, no offense intended towards anyone. If anything I would like to see the arcade hacks eventually emulated... I saw one at a pizza place called "Skate Kid Bros.", it was screwed up. Mario was replaced by some kid on a skateboard, and the mushroom was replaced with a quarter (I assume, since it was a coin that said "25c"), which turned him into... uh, his big brother? Never mind, I'm starting to ramble.

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), September 08, 2000.

SF Zero Changer is different as it was a home system, not an arcade game. Playchoice 10 was an arcade game system, you insert money and play. If PC-10 games were to be banned or archived for having a time limit then why not archive all sports games that are limited by time as well. I don't care about leaderboard points for PC-10 games- the 3 I uploaded will be the only ones as they are versions of my all time favourite arcade games- but it would create double standards if they were to be archived from the rest of MARP. Sure PC-10 games don't 'feel' like arcade games, but neither will the Vs. games- besides the timer they are practically identical to their Playchoice 10 counterparts.

-- JSW (usagi@dingoblue.net.au), September 08, 2000.

Ok, folks, I have worked with Playchoice Machines. First, the games placed in them ARE NOT THE SAME 8-bit NES CARTS... These are carts made for the pc10'er. Second, they may look close to almost exact as the NES conterpart, but they are not. For instance in Mario Golf, some modes have been removed, and some play has been changed to faciliate arcade play. Mike Tyson's punchout is another example. It has a built-in initial representation (Just as Nintendo's stand-alone games of that era) and has a top 10 high score page for each fighter. NEXT, you can't play PC carts in your 8-bit nes... These games are fine as they are, with a 300 tick timer. I could beat smb1 in 300 ticks, and get very close on 3, you just have to know how to play it right.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 08, 2000.

Well, this is MAME Action Replay, not Arcade Action Replay, so I'm of the opinion that it's ok as long as it's in MAME. But I'm not going to whine either way. Certainly some of the Playchoice games don't work well at all for competitive play, like Rygar, because there's nothing to base a score on.

As far as ticks go, I think some games it makes no sense to have a tick limit (Mario Golf) while others it would be a good way to prevent leeching (Super Mario Bros.). On the other hand we could just be sure to have a 'no looping' rule to prevent that.

Or if we wanted to get real ambitious, we could have special 'speed play' categories for a couple of the games where only one quarter is allowed, and keep 'as many ticks as you want' play in the main category.

-- jbd (jdyer41@aol.com), September 08, 2000.

Here we go.

I just wanted EVERYONE to know that I MUST AGREE with the folks saying THAT PC10 SHOULD BE ALLOWED. AFTER ALL, they are now a PART OF MAME and as such fall under MARP (as is USUALLY the CASE, anyway). While we must DEAL with the occasional STUPIDITY regarding LEECHING on CERTAIN GAMES, I think that FOR THE MOST PART 300 ticks is GOOD ENOUGH to determine some sort of scoring system. If you REALLY WANT to PLAY YOUR NES GAMES for leaderboard points. KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. I have ALREADY MASTERED every NES game IN EXISTENCE, and thus feel NO NEED to crush you all with my MAD SKILLZ. IN SUMMARY, I know how to PLAY THE GAMES.

Cheers, Brian McLean - Suspected Lasso World Record Holder - Tony Hawk Junkie (489K in one run so far. Look out world! :) - Video Game Slut with a dash of ADD - Grand Poobah of Tourney Disqualification - Beefcake, beefcake, BEEFCAKE! - Bored Individual who needed to poke at a couple of his favorite MARP celebrities - KING OF THE WORRRRRRRLD!!!

-- Brian McLean (bmclean84@hotmail.com), September 09, 2000.

I played yesterday some SMB, it was exactly as arcade version in my opinion. I can't see why pc_10 games shouldn't be allowed. I'll use as much time/(credits) as I need to finish the game. If I remember right, the game gives you generous bonus points(was it 100K?) each man left when the game is finished. So after finishing the game, it's still matter of finishing it with less mistakes/better gameplay..

How can you pointleech in SMB anyway, level timer runs all the time???

P.S Only reason why some of them(gauntlet, T&F...) should be banned, is because they suck deeply :-|

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), September 11, 2000.

Ok A lot of opinons here my fellow MARPERS..

I just want to point out some things to some of you guys here:

Chris P: 1.Of course you can finish smb in 300 "ticks" if you use some warp- pipelines.. My record on the nes was about 6 min... (Warping from 1-2 to 4-1 from 4-2 to 8-1 then played until 8-4) But i would like to point out that there is NO WAY to finish smb in 300 ticks if you want to play every level.. Enough said! Sorry Chris you are wrong there.. I have nothing to say about smb3 but smb is inpossible... To play all levels it takes about 1 hour (and get almost every coin)

Tommi: 2.I know the arcade version well and the nes version and I can tell that the pc_ version seems to be different from both of them.. Some of the levels (were the flying fishes appear 7-2 I think) is different from the arcade version.. some extras don4t appear as they did on the arcade etc.. the arcade version was a little harder in my opinion.. and yes Tommi, you get 100k for every man you have left when you finish the game (at least on the arcade don4t remember the nes version)

Pointleeching:on some levels you can jump on a turtle and push it on other enemies to get an extra men (after the 8k) then you simply die and continue to do it again..Pointless of course and it destroys the gamplay I can tell.. I hope that this way of playing smb will be banned...the levels are hmm if I remember right.. 3-2 5-2 and maybe 8- 1 (correct me if I4m wrong I have only played it once on mame and it was ten years since the arcade..:)

Chad:

3.My intention is not to be rude, but I think that yu don4t get the point in my question about the ticks, credits etc.. This is not like the Baddude vs ninja (or whatever the name of the game is *lol*) wich allow you to continue untill you beat the game.. In the Pc_ version of smb for example you have your 3 men to start with, and earn some when you play.. when your last men is dead the game is over! If you use another credit here you only get more of the Pc time! NOT the time in the real game!

My sugestion is to insert as many credits as you wish (don4t make the gameplay easier, cause you don4t continue..) and then it4s like playing smb (almost:) in the arcade.

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 11, 2000.

SMB and SMB3 both have infinite life leeching points, Tommi. I believe one for SMB is in World 3-1 (one of many!), using a turtle shell to accumulate points/lives, and there's one in SMB3 where you are essentially thrown an endless supply of lives. Any vintage NES player knows this. Most also know how to get to MinusWorld, where you could theoretically score an infinte amount of coins (Pipe trick at 1-2 if I recall)

Now, seeing as how I don't want to propose an infinite amount of rules, the games will be played with 1 coin, as everything else at MARP is. The timer can probably be upped when the dip switches are labelled, as I've been told by a few people that the initial time limit can be changed via dips.

And if two or three PC games are allowed, I certainly can't see restricting play on any of the others.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 11, 2000.

First trip through SMB1, life leeching can occur at 3-1, 6-3, 8-2(two places), and possibly one other spot. 2nd time through, all goombas are bettles, so there are a heck of a lot more places it can happen. I never said I had a level to level play of smb or smb3, I just said I completed it (smb) and rather close (smb3). AND NO, THERE IS NO POINT BONUS PER LIFE IN PC_SMB!!! hehehehe.... Truthfully, the game was/is very rarely played 1-1 thru 1-4, then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8-1...8-4

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 12, 2000.

You have right Chris.. No 100k award for every men left when you finish the game.. I saw that yesterday when I finished smb.

It seems that only the arcade version gave you 100k then:)

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 12, 2000.

Just to clarify for everyone: when the dips are identified on the PlayChoice games (and I've been informed that one of the dips controls coin time), there will indeed be a vote to determine how many ticks are allowed. As chad also suggested, you are quite welcome to use as many credits as you wish in your recording, but only count up to the end of the first one.

I will also post a vote in October (among a few other isues) as to whether we should archive PlayChoice games or not. There are a few reasons why I see this as an advantage. 1) As Brian pointed out, they are a part of MAME, and thus a part of MARP, so banning them certainly doesn't make sense--noone is threatening to. 2) As several other players have pointed out, these are CONSOLE GAMES, and 1 or 2 exceedingly minor cosmetic changes (which I still have not seen evidence of) do no alter this fact. These were not games that were designed to play better or even equal to their console port under an arcade design. 3) Regulation MARP always has, and always will be, about one credit. I do agree that limiting PC games to one credit restricts gameplay, which is why I am suggesting they be put into the archives, where competition is more open-ended. 4) The vs. driver which should be out before long is superior in terms of both quality of games emulated and arcade design.

But my final point, and the one that decides me personally on the issue, is the following question: Would you go to an arcade to play SMB on a machine that charged for time, if you had the NES version at home? If I had my choice between Atari 2600 Asteroids or Arcade Asteroids, it's an easy decision. So is Mouse Trap Colecovision vs. Mouse Trap arcade. The console ports are weaker than the actual game. This is in direct contrast to the PC games, where I would much rather be happily chewing up my third gamepad with MegaMan3--not at Wizards' Castle looking like a NES addict who had to get his lunchtime fix.

Something to think about for next month's vote.

I realize the points may be important to some players, but I don't think they're THAT important in this situation, especially when the vs. games come out. I think if players carefully consider this, they will agree. They may be MARP games, but these are by no means arcade games.

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 12, 2000.