Ok, I am interested in getting a couple of goats this coming spring. I have no idea what I want as far as breeds go ( Except I don't want Nubians , nothing personal, I just don't like the looks of them. ) I was thinking maybe saanens or alpine? Or what about something not pure bread? I think my daughter would like to show these in the fair maybe sometime. Maybe not.She is nine and she will be mesing with them a lot. We want to be able to milk , just enough for our family.

How much hay do you need to be able to feed them through the winter? Feed? We have mild winters in Arkansas.They would be kept on maybe two -three acres. Half of which is wooded, lots of under brush; another reason to get goats.We do not have a barn, just small storage shed. I could probably store no more than 10 bales at one time.

Which kind are less active? Not so prone to nut up and jump the fence. Which by the way is 2x4 welded wire. Fence post are t-post appr, 5 feet apart. I can just hear some of ya'll laughing now. If I put an electric wire on the side that seperates the woods from my garden would that keep them out of there? I am positive I would not like garden goats.

We don't want to invest a large sum of money ( well we can't anyway ) But I think we would really like to have goats.My husband is not at all sure of this ( because his family had ,not a fun experience, with a goat when he was little, for the entire day they owned it ) but he likes the idea of chemical free brush control. And he pretty much lets me do what I want as far as animals and kids are conscerned.

Are they expensive to own after you buy them? Lots of medical problems?Are they excesivly noisy? Are they content to be in the field and eat? Will they want to be in the house with us all the time? Are they high strung? How do they get along with kids? How about our farm collie? She gets along real well with our chickens and is very protective of them.

Please tell me all you know. I need to be well informed before spring.

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), September 16, 2000

Answers

Hey, Bonnie, I'm also in Arkansas and am currently trying to find a goat. We've had Alpines and Saanans in the past and I share your feelings about the Nubians (also La Manchas) I don't mean to offend, but I just happen to like the looks of the Swiss-type goats better than the others. You will need strong fencing, preferably an electric fence. I always have one strand about 6-12" off the ground, the other about 18" up from that. Goats love to stand on woven wire and pound it right into the ground. They also love to rub along wire of any kind, bending it all over the place. The easiest way to keep them off is with the hotwire. I have never seen an inactive breed or one that learns to stay off things. They are natural browsers and want to sample every tree limb and shrub that they see. They are not natural grazers, although they will graze if browse is not available. They are much like deer in their eating habits. The hay you get for them should be of a very good quality, but be prepared that they will waste alot of it looking through it for tidbits. I used to feed a commercial alfalfa pellet when I lived in Arizona. Each cube was about the size of my thumb. They loved it. Here in Arkansas, I can't find it and have occasionally resorted to feeding rabbit pellets, but I'm not sure how they compare to the others as far as nutritional values go. As far as papers go, some breeders will tell you to buy registered, always. I say (and I can't wait for the blast I'll get on this) you can't milk papers. A good grade doe from milking stock, with good udder attachment is what I always look for. Here in my area I couldn't give the registered kids away, so why bother? Registered meat doesn't taste any better than grade. I also have to admit, I've had poor luck with the few registered animals I've owned, and the grade goats have been trouble-free. If you have specific questions or if you find one for sale and she has a sister, e-mail me. With the luck I'm having finding one, you will find one before I do.

-- melina bush (goatgal1@juno.com), September 16, 2000.

Hi Bonnie, I live in Idaho now, but I used to live in Arkansas, so I know what it's like there. Nubians seem to be the most popular there, but if you don't like them get something else. I have alpines, they are very intelligent- almost to a fault. They are not loud or noisy unless you are late for milking or something is wrong. They are quite active as kids, but even old does clown around once in a while. It's part of what makes them such fun animals to have. The amount of hay they will require will vary based on the hay, and the feeder design. A poorly designed feeder will waste an incredible amount of good hay. putting it on the ground will waste even more, because goats are actually quite picky about their food being clean. Make the feeder so that it has a bottom with a ledge around it, about 6" high, and diagonal slats across the front so they can't put their heads in and pull them back out easily. I've had goats for about ten years now, and have had very few illnesses. I have had to assist at a few births, but it's not the doe's fault if two kids are tangled up and both trying to be born at once! The worst medical problem I had was when my first doe was attacked by dogs and she died. I've never had to take a goat to the vet for a medical problem, the few sicknesses that there were, were so severe that the goats died very quickly, and the vet wouldn't have been able to save them. The amount of grain they need will vary depending on how much she's producing. A high producing doe needs more feed to produce more milk. I feed about 2 lbs per doe per day. Yes, put electric wire on the inside perimeter and along the top of the fence if you want them to stay in it. My alpines are very content to stay in the field and eat, if you get just one, though, it may be lonely and holler alot and want to be with you. I have had nubians that hollered all the time for attention, but they aren't all like that. Do NOT let it in the house unless it is a newborn kid and sick! They are the same size as a dog, but if you let it go wherever it wants to it will make your life miserable! my goats are fine around the children. I had a doe once that was sweet and gentle,had to board her out for a while, when she came back, she had been abused by two boys, and now had an attitude towards all children,especially boys! It took years for her to get over that! Goats are very smart and have very good memories. If they are abused or harrased by children, they are likely to get mean, or very nervous and afraid around people. Also, get a goat that doesn't have horns. I would recommend getting registered goats, for several reasons. Someone who is serious enough about their goats to go to all the trouble of keeping paperwork on them, is also going to be serious (usually) about controlling disease problems,and breeding good stock that produces well. I have seen a lot of culls, and most of them weren't papered. People who register their goats have a reputation to maintain if they want to sell their goats! You can't show a goat at a goat show if it isn't papered. And, after having bought all kinds of goats, of all breeds and degrees of quality, I have to say that the idea that purebreds are less hardy and produce less, just isn't true. Unregistered goats are often more likely to have abcesses or CAE or some other disease, many of which are not apparent on sight. They often haven't been selectively bred for good conformation and production, so they may have an udder that drags the ground and only gives enough milk for the kid. I have seen and had registered does that produced 2 gallons a day out of well attached udders, with sound feet. Even if you don't want that much milk,(after the kids get their share, it's not that much),you do want a decent quality goat, and if your daughter is going to show it, get her something that won't be standing in last place. A bad goat eats just as much feed and takes just as much time (or more) to care for, you might as well get her one she can be proud of. I think between Saanens and alpines, the saanens are a little more mellow and less prone to mischeif, but I like my alpines, and there are exceptions in every breed. I also like the surprise of what color the kids are going to be, it would be dull to get plain white every time!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 16, 2000.

As far a breeds go, Saanens are excellent producers, but in my experience they don't hold up as well as the other breeds. I've had more trouble kidding, with mastitis and with poor udder attachment (leading to injurys). The only Saanen I have left is Casper the Friendly goat. Hes a whether, big as a small horse, and was my first goat, along with his twin brother BBQ, who broke his leg and after a $600 surgery turned up to be CAE possitive and was given away (Casper is still neg 6 years later). Oberhasli Swiss are my favorite (actually Nubians are, but you already eliminated them) withToggs and Alpines following. I've had better resale value with Oberhasli, but have had trouble finding bucks, I already keep an ALpine, Nubians and Togg bucks (and Pygmy) and don't want a 4th! Biggest disater I have had was 6 of mine bloated in one day. I hadn't changed the feed so to this day I do not know why. Lost 3 of them, including a young NUbian buck with outstanding pedigree. Well, they say if you have livestock, eventually you'll have dead stock. Good Luck

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 16, 2000.

You need info on goats? Check out ansi.okstate.edu/library/Goats

Look under the Breeds catagory and there is every goat ever created listed. Lots of management info. too.

If you are needing a smaller amount of milk look into the Nigerian Dwarf. It is a small dairy goat that comes in all colors.

-- Vaughn (vdcjm5@juno.com), September 16, 2000.

I agree with the electric wire inside of the field fence and run two strands!!! Maybe three. Also, I have had ZERO luck with a solar shocker. I understand some people have had good luck with them,but I found a 20 mile through wet weeds horse shocker to work the best. I have three other ones that aren't worth a darn. Fencing was my biggest problem when I first got my goats. Also, I was not too bright about it and thought they would do fine roaming around as my place was quite overgrown and I only had a small area that was fenced in chain link to keep things I didn't want the goats eating in...well, the doe figured out how to open the gate and ate all of my container plants in an afternoon.Luckily she didn't get poisoned. I also lost wiring and all the plug wires in one of my vehicles. I sure wish I had had access to this forum then!

I personally don't think it matters as to grade or purebred if you aren't interested in being a breeder or REALLY getting into it, but from personal experience, the health issues are paramount. Before you buy spend the money on testing for CAE and CL. Hopefully you can buy from someone who tests and they will give you papers showing negative. If you can't get the goats tested before bringing them home, I would reccommend passing on the deal. Especially if you have a little girl that you want to provide with a good experience with goats. You really don't want to have a goat with CL. Here CAE is rampant and it is BAD, but it's actually easier to live with on a day to day basis than abcesses. I received the distinct pleasure of getting both of those dread diseases with my first doe. It broke my heart, but I had to put her down this spring. I just would hate to see a child experience that pain when it could be prevented.

Otherwise goats are great fun and they are pretty easy although you do have to milk twice a day, so there is no forgetting about it! I like that because it keeps me from going too crazy at work all the time!

I have a feed mix that I get made for my goats. They are doing very well on it and I am happy with their growth and appearance. It is 15.9% DIGESTIBLE protein, with absolutely no animal "by product" in it. You need to be very careful about that as many of the premix feeds up the protein levels with that. I just feel I must warn you that goats are extremely picky eaters. They will taste everything, but they won't eat something if it's a tic off or their dish is dirty. they also like to have very clean water. No mess in it whatsoever or they will just dehydrate waiting for you to clean it for them.

As for hay, it depends how much good browse you have, but for milking does you should feed some good alfalfa each day. With good browse 1 leaf for two does per day should be fine, but if you're in northern Arkansas and they only have dead leaves for browse you will probably need to up that. When Vicki and Bernice see this thread I am sure they can inform you well on that.

As for personalities, make sure you get a bottle raised one if you don't buy goats that are already milking. It can be quite an experience trying to milk a wild goat. Also the bottle raised ones are much more friendly, even though I think most goats are generally quite friendly. They don't tend to be high strung as long as they aren't lonely. If you get two it should be just fine. My goats lose their minds when I take one away to breed or go to the vet.

DO NOT BUY A HORNED GOAT!It isn't worth the headache.

As for your dog, if she will give the goats their space and let them have the respect they are due, it should be fine. My dogs play a run the fence game with my horned wether, but they never have ventured to harm any of my goats even when they have herded them back to the barn for me.

Well, you said you wanted to hear all about it, so there are my reccommendations for you. If you think of any other questions, you might be able to find the answers in the archives or just add on here. Best of luck to you!

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 16, 2000.

First spend some time on goat lines, Egroups.com has tons of them! They will need some sort of shelter, and sounds like an upgrade in fencing. Folks are in and out of the goat business fastest because they can't keep the goats in, they get out and eat all the garden, they bloat on the azeleas etc. Of course I am a Nubian breeder, but we have had most breeds, expept Oberhasli, over the years. Daughter raised LaMancha's for 10 years, and they are usually the breed I get 99% of my 4H kids into when they ask. You said "I need to be well informed by spring" Don't even think about buying spring kids as your "Welcome to goat keeping" without a mentor on hand all of the time, new folks and kids are just a disaster waiting to happen, even if you get them from purchase to weaning without diarrhea, they will usually not grow out as well for you as someone who has been doing it for awhile. If you are going to wait for spring, then buy a doe in milk, perhaps nursing kids so you can just keep her empty for several weeks, while you figure out how to milk! Showing dairy goats is a great way for you to bond with your daughter, but to be honest though my daughters showed from the time they were 8 until they were 18, I was always the goat person, and have goats still now after they are grown. Most dairy goats and meat goats in breeding stock are shown by adults, though we all have kids who show in Open Shows. 4H and FFA County shows, except in meat goats are small shows that you usually politely go to helping out a fledgling club, or being ran by a friend you show against in Open Shows. There is always cost in keeping healthy stock, if you purchase wisely with CAE negative stock from a CL clean herd, you are halfway there. Prevention management consists of worming, trimming feet, brushing or shaving yearly, and vaccinations. Though you could learn everything that you do need to know about goats over the internet, you could even purchase your does that way. I have advertised in Countryside for years and have sold goats to folks as far away as New Mexico, but you just can't say enough for having a goat mentor that is in your area.

I figure a bale of grass hay every 2 weeks per goat, 1 pound of grain per head per day as maintence (more for does in milk) and since the keeping quality of alfalfa is so poor here in hot humid east Texas, we feed US Alfalfa, a dehydrated chopped alfalfa baled in plastic so no temperature extremes delete nutrients. We also throw rye grass seed out in the pasture/woods pen, gives the girls a reason to walk through the fields when heavy bred (lazy is not the word)!

I don't think that most folks who aren't goat owners can even understand the mentality of the crazed obsecessed goat owner, of which I know Bernice is one also. I love my girls, I am not a big baby goat lover, but find true joy in sitting next to my girls talking to them while I milk them on the milk stand. It is simply gravy that they win for me in the showring, allowing me to get more money for the babies they carry for me. None of this money could be made without ADGA papers. Everyone needs to choose their involvment that they are willing to put into goats, if you cannot define yourself as having at least some compulsive behaviors :) than getting into milk/show goats is probably not for you! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

What you need are some good books..... Raising Milk Goats the Modern Way by J.D. Belanger and Raising Goats for Milk and Meat and Carla Emery's The Encyclopedia of Country Living are probably the best for you to get to start with. I love goats and my choice is Nubians but everyone has their favorite, just keep in mind that all animals need good food and shelter. Goats require other upkeep too, such as vacinations, hoof trimming, brushing. I have found that when we have goats we are pretty much confined to home. No camping trips, not even late getting home. If you are milking and want to keep your goats milk supply up you must milk twice a day and you have to be more consistent with your time than with a cow. You need much more info than you are likely to get on this forum so invest in some good books, read them discuss this with all the people in your family who might be involved in their care and then think about investing in two goats. I know people here in Arkansas who have Togs and Alpines so if you can't find any e-mail me.

-- ArtieAnn Karns (rokarns@arkansas.net), September 22, 2000.

If I were you I would ask Sandra Niedrauer- she lives in TX near Texarkana. her email address is:

goatfarm@peoplescom.net

BTW she has the best dogs for herding goats with read about her jacob here:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/5755/jacob.html

-- Elaine Reynolds (horses@newmex.com), September 22, 2000.