I had a interesting thing happen this weekend [a life lesson]that I thought I would share: My husband, one daughter and I went to lunch on Saturday. While at the restaurant, I heard a caucasian man making snide, derogatory comments about the host who is a Jamaican. He was quite rude, racist and nasty. I gave him a dirty look [hate bigotry]. After lunch we went to an Indian pow wow at a college. They had a toddler dance for children 5, and under so my son went out and danced with the indian children. Afterward the tribal elder praised the kids for their dancing [all no matter what color], and passed out money and prizes to the kids. And I couldn't help notice the irony. Here was a people who has every right to be prejudice and bitter who not only were not, but who celebrated diversity.

If you ever get a chance to visit a powwow please do it. They are great.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), September 20, 2000

Answers

I'm sorry I'll have to disagree a little .Yes are ancesstors did horrible things to the indians , not us .I think we have paid are dues .The indians get allot from us still .We live near a large reservation which doesn't pay taxes , owns a cassino ,free healthcare , better school than ours with a skating arena in it , and the list goes on .I know this is not the case with all reservations .

There have been allot of people from all back grounds who started with nothing and made something of them selfs .If you want to you will .I do have to agree with your magor point , don't judge someone by the color or lack of in there skin .

I guess I get tired of paying for things I had no control of .The job , house or whatever should go to the most qualified person regardless of race.

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 20, 2000.

I'll hafta agree with Patty, My great grandpa didn't get to this country until 1879-never owened any slaves,never killed any injins,but still get blamed for all of it anyway.

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 20, 2000.

I love powwows! I took my 4 yr old nephew to one this summer, it was a first for him. He and my three year old danced the inter-tribal dances and lots of fun. Right after coming out of the circle, my nephew stated that indians were mean and killed cowboys. I was appalled, but realized he was just espousing what our culture teaches. He has those plastic indian and cowboy sets. The indians weren't coming after him with hatchets and I refer to them as Native Americans so how was he supposed to know that he was surrounded by indians. I pointed out to him that he had just danced with indians and they weren't mean to him. On the contrary, I told him, cowboys slaughtered the indians. He thought about that then went running to his mom and told her cowboys killed the indians. I have Native friends. When I rung their bell, a neighbor came out and asked if I was looking for "them indians". They have names for goodness' sake! And that's exactly what my friend told her neighbor who had said the same thing to others who have visited. Another friend's daughter would come home from school crying because the kids would ask her where her bow and arrow were and make mock whooping noises at her. Yet another friend couldn't get a job around here because of his native heritage. I have been on several reservations and can tell you they live in mini communist run communities: they live off welfare, which is oppressive and when they get jobs, they can only earn so much unless they want to leave the reservation. Don't forget, the reservations were the least desired land and being self sufficient without government funding is impossible on many reservations. As for responsibility: Native religion and languages were illegal until the 1970's! Our parents and grandparents were responsible for their continued oppression! Big news in Canada presently is white men's government going back on treaties concerning hunting and fishing rights to this day! There is nothing to envy about reservation life. The oppression is not over with and when we let our government continue to run amock, we contribute to it. Epona, member of the Rainbow Tribe

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), September 20, 2000.

Kathy, Children don't know prejudice. It is a trait that comes with age and teaching.Even the American Indians understood this, prejudice influenced their society greatly. You even show signs of this trait in your dislike of bigots. We must all teach our children to control these emotions to allow interactions within our sociological structures. Any person who holds an opinion, also posseses some prejudice. I worked with a woman who made the remark " I am not prejudiced and I hate anyone who is !". She was very angry when I pointed out the oxymoron quality of her statement

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), September 20, 2000.

The grass is always greener for 'someone else', no matter who that 'other' is. Try to refrain from judging those 'other' groups. SOme of them are of European descent as well, same as you. Be thankful we don't always get what we deserve.

Consider attending the local Indian powwows or other open activities so that you might learn something (gee whiz!) or open your hearts to 'them'.Knowing someone other always affects your opinion of the group at large. Try it.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), September 20, 2000.

It seems the American Indians were about as predjuice as ayone the way one group or tribe would try to kill off other tribes. They were constantly fighting each other a lot more than fighting the whites. It's just that the whites had the power to overtake all the tribes. Maybe not right but that's just the way it was done when a country was being established.

About the kids. It sure would be nice if all us could be like that. Not even noticing what color someone was. But for some reason it isn't that way. We have white bigots and black bigots and red bigots all over. That's just the way it is.

I used to live in Mexico and I married a Mexican girl. When we came back to Texas, this was in the late '60s, I had more than one person tell me, "what are you doing with her? She's kinda' dark." She was one of the most beautiful girls I ever saw.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 20, 2000.

Kathy, Frist let me say that are government is busy fositering prejudice in their politically correct stuff! And you will have a hard finding anybody more prejudice than the indians are of one tribe to another tribe. I've been there and seen it frist hand, while working with them in AZ.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 20, 2000.

Prejudice is still at work in this country -- my half-Tlinget sister- in-law went into the hospital for minor surgery a few years ago and came out with a hysterectomy she hadn't given permission for or been consulted about. Afterwards, she found that quite a few native women in Alaska had had the same thing done to them. But I don't think anyone should blame a whole group of people for the misdeeds of a few. The people who actually do the wrong thing need to carry personal responsibility for their actions -- there are good and bad in all peoples. Blaming the whole group is how persecutions and wars start.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 20, 2000.

00ps, sorry about the generalization of all of the tribes. I don't know all the members of any tribe, so cann't say all are prejudice and do not want to mention any tribal names that I worked with. Also my spelling is bad should be fostering, and maybe that isn't quite the right word. Really enjoyed the Pow Wow at Gallup NM. Loved to go to the big Navajo flea market just north of Gallup that is held every weekend. Also enjoyed people watching in the mall at Gallup while my wife shopped. At least 90% indain, mostly Navajo in the mall. Noticed how gentle the fathers treated there little ones.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 20, 2000.

Good post Kathy. Patty, it has been only very resently that the indian reservations found the loophole in the law to have thriving casinos on their land taxfree. Go for it! I grew up East of San Diego, and the Indian reservations there were horid little places with the worst of the land their could be. Now they have thriving businesses (so what if they are really overseen by the white mofia) thier kids have schools, homes and a real future. Reservation schools have some of the highest paid teachers in Texas! Oh!! Well except for our prison systems! :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 20, 2000.

SOMEONE of every race has been prejudice and SOMEONE of every race has had someone be prejudice against them. The attitude of superiority is not prejuduce, it affects all cultures. You have to look at individuals and not ever lump groups of people together. Native Americans, African Americans, Hispanics, Caucasions, Rich, Poor, Soldiers, Hippies..........can you tell me you have never looked down on someone who was different from you? That is prejudice. Perhaps we look in disgust at someone who lives without water and power and judge them for the fact that they don't do things the way we do them. Or perhaps we judge the wealthy and their lifestyle. Individuals. We must focus on the individual.

-- Tammy Hall (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 20, 2000.

I felt I needed to explain what I meant in the above post. In saying that "the attitude of superiority is not prejudiced" I meant that the attitutde affects people of all cultures. Wasn't sure I made that clear.

-- Tammy (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 20, 2000.

As I said before I can not speak for other reservations but before we had the casino the schools were great .When I drive through 9 out of 10 homes are beatiful with new cars and suv's in the driveway .

You may all disagree but I'm tired of paying for others free rides .There are all types of education loans and grants , if you want to better yourself you can .My husband left school at 16 thanks to his dad , no education , no skill .Today he is in charge of the electrical dept of a paper mill and almost done for his instramentational degree .All odds against him , but he wanted something better for himself and his family .

We came from a state where you had to have x number of this race and that race working in large company's .These company's were also afraid to fire people who didn't hold there own ,because of the color of there skin.In would come the state and a law suit next , you fired me because I am not white . In my option you should be judged on whats inside and your abilities not color .

Sorry to go on , I just think if you want to better yourself you can .You also can spent your life depending on others.

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 20, 2000.

Tammy, what's an African American? I used to work with a guy who was born in South Africa to parents who were US citizens and he had a Portugese name, Mike Santa Rita, and he moved back over here when he was 12. Was he an African American? He had white skin, does that disqualify him?

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), September 20, 2000.

Ask any 70's fondue-party hostess - all melting pots have the occasional lumpy bits that just stick together like glue and don't mix well with the rest of the group, even if the rest of the pot is behaving nicely. Folks is folks, and that doesn't change no matter what you do. The best thing we can do is our best - for ourselves, for our families, and for each other, not neccessarily in that order. And IMHO, nobody's getting any more of a free ride here than there. for every tribe with tax loopholes and "free" job slots, there are Indians who live in areas where the locals wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire, and for every white person out of a job because of quotas and such, there's a white corporate head who's taking his wife's plastic surgery and his mistresses new Lexus off his company's taxes and getting away with it. When you see things from a broader perspective, everything from poverty to absurd wealth is spread around pretty evenly between races, ages, genders, and nationalities. Everybody has it worse than some and better than most in some area or another, be it health, wealth, or personality quirks. Otherwise, y'all'd be a pretty boring group to listen too, nes pas?

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), September 20, 2000.

Joe

I said "African American" so as not to offend anyone who is of the negro decent, as I think African American is the politically correct terminology these days. But how the hell would I know, as I don't keep up with what is politically correct. I do not make up the terminology. I think you knew exactly what I was talking about.

Just for the record, I was raised in a very prejudiced home. Black people were called the "N" word and Yankees could go to hell. I managed to survive the bigotry and think for myself. I try not to label groups of people. That was my point in my post. If I offended you by calling someone "African American" then I apologize.

-- Tammy (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 20, 2000.

I could get off on one of my most famous rants but I'll keep it simple. WE ALL LIVE ON STOLEN LAND ! You can wash it a thousand times in greed, hypocrisy and rhetoric but the fact remains: The United States stole land that it had no right to, with military force ! Maybe you didn't steal it ? Still our law convicts people for being in possession of stolen property and we all are guilty.( unless you rent) than your just an accessory after the fact ! We are fools anyway, you cannot own land. It was not given to you by your parents --it was loaned to you by your children ! End of Rant.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 20, 2000.

Joel: Please tell me of one place in the world that hasn't been taken away from somebody at one time or another during the last several thousand years. I have no guilty feeling about what happened to others before my time I'm just concerned that it doesn't continue with our government or the UN.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 20, 2000.

Joel, we kicked their ass and took it fair and square and ain't giving it back! Talk about a moot point,this is probably it. Besides,texas kicked mexicos'butt and took this part of the country.

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 20, 2000.

Joel, this is scary you and I agree on something again. I learned a good lesson from my step father years ago,Its not whats on the out side that counts but whats In there heart that counts. As I grow up more I find their ways are more in sync with mine every day,I think It Is good to pray when you have had to kill something. and their veiw of taking care of the land and only taking what you need is right on. there are wise individuals in every culture and we would be wise to learn from them all.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), September 20, 2000.

We're agreeing again Joel.;-)

Billy, The fact of the matter is that our country did some pretty ugly stuff to gain possession of 'our' country. Passing out disease ridden blankets to reservations, and supplying rotten foods, when they bothered to supply anything, for example. Breaking EVERY treaty ever signed is another example. History is written (and taught) by the victor, but whitewashing doesn't change the facts, it just hides them for a bit. On the other hand, at this late date it's hardly possible to undo things and start over. What we can do now is stop the prejudice, and just deal fairly with everyone, regardless of their heritage.

-- Connie (Connie@lunehaven.com), September 21, 2000.

Most of my closest friends are Native Americans, mostly Canoe People. When I was going through the worst of times, and everyone else turned their back on me, they are the ones who took care of me, seeing that my children and I had food and housing. They provided licensed childcare for free to my children. They provided the moral support, Christian fellowship and friendship that I needed during such hard times. Nobody else did.

Did you know there are still businesses which refuse to serve Indians?

Even Indians with a good work history and credit are turned down for home loans because the are "poor risk'?

There are some towns, that if an Indian is on the street after 6:00P.M. they are beaten and thrown in jail by the cops?

Did you know Indian kids in public schools are still stuck in the back of the classroom and excluded from any extra help, or extracurricular activities?

This isn't just in one region, folks, this is all over the country.

Most white folks I know, including Christians, claim to hate Indians and don't want them in their neighborhoods. Is it any wonder that so many choose to stay or go back to the reservation?

Our Rez kids, if they want to go to Junior College, must drive 85 miles one way on roads that are all 15 mph curves. Their bus service was cancelled this year.

Is it any wonder that so many Native People choose to stay home where they are accepted, instead of going out where they are not wanted and are perpetually different?

Finally, the Indian Nations are learning to cooperate with one another. The tribes are getting some strong leadership from within their own families and finding ways to bring health and welfare standards up to the level of the rest of country, and White America is scared of the new self-respect of the Red Man.

I am happy for them when I see an Indian family with more than I have. They didn't take anything away from me.

P.S. Tammy, the current p.c. term is BLACK, unless their family immigrated from Africa. As my friend says, "There ain't no Georgia on the African continent."

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), September 21, 2000.

I have learned more about war from studying Cheif Joseph than all the West Point manuals combined. I have learned more about survival from an old Cherokee in one week than all the "white" experts I have ever encountered. All that is good in the Native American, I have tried to learn. All that was bad, I already knew.

Any enemy can be overcome by excessively supreme numbers--even Shermen and Hitler used this technique. I myself cannot revel in the destruction of a race or their being herded like cattle to fulfill some part of my ego. Beat them fair and square you say ? My friend, you have much to learn of war and history and more to learn of humanity ! I hope someday you realize the serious impact that statement carries when the tables are turned.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 21, 2000.

Billyb: am I correct in your philosophy being 'might makes right'? Somebody kicked somebody's a$$, therefore they are superior? If that be the case, then people who abuse their children are some righteous people! How about those criminals who break into your home and shoot your family: bow to them of greater strength, my man! And the government who sends it's soldiers to take your property for not subjecting yourself to them, praise them every day you spend in prison! Ahhh, the mighty ones.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), September 21, 2000.

Joel, who's gonna turn the table? Epona, might doesn't make right,it just makes things the way they are and decides who gets to write the history books. See my first post up toward the top of this thread, I really do get tired of crap like this-maybe it really was manifest destiny,from sea to shining sea. But if it'll make you feel any better,I'll agree to give Wash.D.C. back to them and N.Y. city.there,ya happy now?

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 21, 2000.

Thanks for the update on P.C. terminology! :-) You can see that I don't keep up with all that crap. When I was a kid, if we called somone "black" they would whip our butts! Oh well. I am not politically correct and never will be. BTW, we worked in the Vail area of Colorado last winter because we needed a boost financially from our move from Alaska. I have never seen so much prejudice as what the upper class have for us who are lower class or lower middle class. My children have never had to endure what they endured there. On the other hand, I know personally that the villages in Alaska do not accept the "white man". Many of the jobs in Alaska are classified for the Natives FIRST giving them priority and preference. All the attention given to these issues only causes the situation to be worse in my opinion.

-- Tammy (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 21, 2000.

PS My great grandmother on my father's side of the family was 100% Cherokee Indian. I also have some Cherokee blood on my mother's side.

I just don't think you can lump people into groups. You have to look at the individual.

-- Tammy (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 21, 2000.

As I started reading this thread, I was formulating a response -- but Joel took the words right out of my mouth.

The problem that remains is that if we really, truly believe that treaties were broken, then we should strive now to live up to the terms that each treaty dictated. I have no idea how this would change our society -- but I would like to see the amends made. It is easy to say this in the hypothetical, but how would I respond when proposed changes threaten to put a crimp on my plans for "owning" land? I dread to believe that I would probably take the easy way out; embracing the status quo.

But, now that I think about it a bit more, why am I afraid of buying land from Native American owners and caretakers? Would they not manage their lands with much more grace and thoughtfulness than the corporate machine that dictates local, state, and nat'l policies today? According to the vein of thought in most of this thread, it is an almost certainty. So now I say bring it on.

-- Mike O (olsonmr@yahoo.com), September 21, 2000.

Well here I live in the heart of Dixie....where prejudice I thought had been the worst in the world....until I read some of these posts!!!

I lived and worked for a time in 1995 just outside the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and I had never seen such poverty!!! And I've also never seen such prejudice!!! These were beautiful and wonderful people and I made many wonderful friends there!!!! But some of the "white" people in neighboring towns were totally prejudice against them...even tho some of them were school teachers, doctors, lawyers, and other distinguished people...just the fact they were Native American meant to some they were no good...

I grew up in the George Wallace era of Alabama....My high school was one of the first in the state to be integrated in 1968. Two years ago I had the privilege of interviewing Nina for the daily newspaper and the weekly here, concerning how she felt at being the only black person in a white school...it was a precious interview and was widely read and quoted....her feelings even 30 years later were so vivid....

why can't we just judge each individual on their own merit????????? there are good and bad black, white, Native American, Asican, Hispanic, etc........we have a big hispanic population now, primarily moving permanently into the state in the last decade....now they are subject to a lot of discrimination....

I am not a libereal...I am VERY conservative in all my beliefs....but a person is a person no matter what color they are....the example of the little children dancing together at the pow wow was perfect...would they we could all maintain that innocence...

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), September 21, 2000.

Thank you Suzy. That was well said. That's what I have been trying to say, but you said it much better.

BTW, my paternal family lives on the Georgia/Alabama border on Lookout Mountain.

-- Tammy (gregandtammy@interbel.net), September 21, 2000.

Okay Bloptoad, you wanna tell me what is so fair and square about shooting women, children and old men in the back as they try to run over the border into Canada to join another nation that invited them? Why was it so important to the U.S. government to have them dead or in concentration camps rather than live free in another country?

We have rebuilt every country that we have conquered. We rebuilt Germany. We rebuilt Japan. We even gave large cash settlements to the Japanese/American citizens that spent a few years in internment camps. What did we do for our own conquered people? We broke every treaty we made with them, stuck them in the badlands, gave them $93 a month and sold them liquer.

Hitler killed six million Jews, how many aboriginals died at the hands of the U.S. government? We shot them, we starved them out, and we gave them smallpox infected blankets. We used them as slaves and called it "evangelizing." We took their children, killed their babies and told them "Don't be Indian."

What frosts my butt is that the bigots of White America can rationalize their treatment and attitudes, past and present, of the People of Color here on American soil.

I cry whenever I've been out to Pine Ridge. The poverty and hopelesness is too overwhelming for me. I suggest anyone who resents an Indian with a nice car go spend a few winter months on the Pine Ridge Reservation, the Makah Reservation, the Colville Reservation or any number of places where people are just trying to survive just like the rest of us, only without the advantage of being black or white.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), September 21, 2000.

Hey, Billyb! There ya go, giving them the worst parts of the country again(both full of criminals), LOL, although upstate NY is real nice.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), September 21, 2000.

laura, fair and square in the concept of TOTAL war of that time period. And of course, your right that they were all just peaceful little flower children and never killed any women and children or burned anyone at the stake or any of those nasty things us white boys said about them. I got a half breed apache for a brother-in-law and that worthless bum goes a long way towards making me agree with [who was it, Sherman]

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 21, 2000.

Sniff,-Sniff,-Sniff--Hey Soni, that don't smell like cheese down here in the fondue pot,glad I'm one of the lumps floatin on top.

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 21, 2000.

Billyb, you didnt happen to eat lunch at dennys last saturday did you? Life has alot to teach you yet.My 5 year old son [ he is white] has a best friend who lives next door[ he is sri lankan]they are as close as brothers, I have a picture of them with their arms around each other, one light and one dark , God bless the little children.

-- kathy hBilly b (saddlebronc@msn.com), September 21, 2000.

Kathy, if life teaches me any thing else my head will explode.We have black and brown friends too- racism wasn't part of my post, getting blamed for something your great grandaddy did was-We got our deed to the house and land today, it''''s ours now and I ain't giving it back to no steenking indians as some of you would seem to suggest. I'll admit we screwed everybody,that's what makes us the WINNER.

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 21, 2000.

It has been a week of firsts ! Until this week, I respected anyone's right to say whatever they felt on this forum. Well, that changed today.. It is rare that I lose my temper but I feel angered. I hope you feel the hatred you spread Bilyb ! I hope it descends on your land and family and you get to feel first hand what prejudice is. I for one, could just drag your sorry ass outside and spend all day kicking it--with total enjoyment !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 22, 2000.

Joel, that's assuming you could kick my ass to start with. It doesn't surprise me that you don't respect my right to say what I want,you people never do unless we agree with your stupid,feel good,re-write of history to tear down everything those mean'ol white guys did to make this the greatest nation ever was. I'm done here,and I know that your busy praying for the return to pre-columbien times, when all was right with the world.

-- BillyB (bloptoad123@cs.com), September 22, 2000.

Bullies have serious problems, whether they are abusing individuals or cultures. Governments, as we all know, are notorious bullies, and they have policies which establish generalizations that support the propaganda that suits them. Whether or not the Indians were abusing each other (as tribal "governments") before our own Government stepped in to abuse them in it's own fasion is immaterial. It was/is still morally wrong.

For an interesting comparison, just look at any of your female abused friends/acquaintances. They are legion, so you must know a few. Look how hard it is for them to get back on their feet after mental and physical abuse by spouses/boyfriends. It's "easier" for them to continue on in submission than to muster the incredible energy to get out...it's so very hard to get away and get safe, not to mention all the interface with agencies, police, etc.

If that analogy holds, it's easy to see how Natives Americans have become depressed, living a wretched life of poverty and despair based on original abuses. In our culture, we tend to blame victims for their crimes (women in particular...they "deserve it") and it's again easy to see how we blame Indians for their "crimes". Just a way to rationalize sick behavior on the part of bullies.

I would suggest at least a few classes in Anger Management for some folks who feel great prejudice toward those who are different based on color, gender, etc. The world could use your help, not your hate.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 22, 2000.

It occurs to me as I have read through all of this thread, that there is little intellect involved in judging ANYONE by their cover. I believe that everyone has the right to earn derision on their own merit. Idiots come in all colors. Giving disrespect without reason is a reaction with no thought involved. I am personally very grateful that the prejudices expressed towards Native Americans wasn't in my family or none of us would be here.

There is nothing that we can do about what our ancestors did. No monetary compensation can make up for destroying a people. We can't give the land back, we can't change the past, we CAN teach our children truth and respect for humanity. You don't kill people because they aren't like you.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 22, 2000.

My God!!! Judge not that you be not JUDGED, isn't that what it says? I love you all and yes all the Native Americans I've met and helped with loans to repair houses, and all thhe Viet namese that I worked with as a civilian empolyee of the USDA. But I understand where BillyB was coming from with his left brain logic, UNTIL YOU'AL got him angry. I don't think he has one oz. of hate for indians. But some of us males are to much left brain and not enough emotioal right brain. Isn't it true that "give a man a fish and you have to do it every day. Teach a masn to fish and he can take care of himself. We cann't undo ANYthing from the past, so just saying the government should give now isn't going to do itnor tlaking about giving the nation back to them. Might make you feel good and thats ok. And oh yes, it's a women thing to want to talk about things and dumb men always want to give the solution and thats really not what they want, but just to be heard and I wish I'd been better at that while my wonderful wife was still in this wrold. As to Native American poverty, the first time I when to Gallop overnight, I forgot my toothbrush. Went to wal-mart about 9:30 at night and thought gosh is tomorrow a holiday I don't know about? Parking lot was full. Inside lomg lines at checkout with full carts and 99% Navajo. Went there many many saturdays, and only wal-mart I ever saw anywhere with EVERY checkout maned or peopled? With long lines with most carts FULL. Why? Thought about it alot and believe it is because they don't own there own land and cann't sell to anyone or lease to anyone outside of family. Well this is already to long and I.ve just stareted I do love you all and have really enjoyed mostly lurking here and will continue to read and do not mean to hurt anyone, but thought everyone was slaming billy. It's perfectly alright if you jump on me, I'll love you anyway.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 23, 2000.

I can understand that, Darrell. I cannot understand hate for the sake of hate. Doreen makes a good point and has to constantly remind me of one of my faults. I tend to judge something by my experience with it before. I have seen too many bigots in my time. Most where the victims of limited education and low self esteem. I'm very guilty of looking at something and judging it to be "just like the other one".

I'm going to be man enough to admit that expressing violence on a piece of paper was wrong of me. I apologize ! Not to billyB, just to the forum ! It was wrong of me to express my feelings in that manner. The "idea's" expressed by billyB are of little use to this world. IMHO, they are influenced by a relative of billy's, who may, or may not, be a decent person.

I thought sheepish's post was right on track about our treatment of Native Americans. Also, it was so nice to see you post again, sheepish ! I also realize we cannot go back and undue what has been done. However, I DO THINK that we as a people can begin to realize that our forefathers made some serious mistakes--criminal mistakes ! The resolution will not be monetary nor will it be in giving back land, although I think we should make an effort in that direction by at least returning the national forests to them. The resolution is to stop the lies perpetuated that they are/were savages and in some way deserved us killing them off. They were defending--we were trespassing. By all forms of law, we were wrong and they were right ! Than we can stand together and try to let this nation live out it's creed that all men are created equal and our children are our greatest resource !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 23, 2000.

I totally agree that many many wronngs were commited by our government and by a whole lot of greedy men pushing the indians (is it ok to say indian or must I be politically correct)? anyway they were pushed out so gold could be gotten, and good land could be farmed, etc. And I would bet that even back then someone in the government knew it and condoned it for political reasons, just as they do now, in both major parties. Reservations are so institutionlized now, that hardly anyone wants to leave the handouts. I'm sure that you know that most people get subconsciously programed by the time they are five years old. At least about 80% by then. And the native am's have had several generations of it and its. hard to break out of That doesn't make it good or bad on their part, it just makes it hard to change. In my opinion the government is still guilty by continueing these pratices. And I'd bet you a steack that billy don't hate them, but just lost his cool. Even if not I'm not going to be a judge! It maybe like you said, somone elses idea past on. My most repeated statement the last few years has been that I got this programing by the time I was 5 and have been trying to reprogram, ie change every since. Stil a long way to go at 63. Good thing God is more forgiving then I am! Don't know why I always have to jump in for the guy getting kicked? should have just stayed a lurker. Love you Joel.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 23, 2000.

Daerl ,{SP SORRY} you said it very well .I guess allot of what gets us made is not helping someone in need , its helping them for a life time .I am all for free education not only to the poor but also to prisions .To change the cycles there needs to be education !It's the only way out .Apparently allot of people on reservations are turning to drugs and alcohol to solve there problems ,is this any different than the inner city poor ? You need the want to change and you can find a way .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 23, 2000.

BillyB -- if all one has to do is kick someones ass to take their stuff, does that mean that, as a Canadian, I am part owner of the land your White House sits on? Seems to me my ancestors "kicked" the ass of some soldiers back in 1812 and burnt it to the ground.

Strangely enough, I don't think so. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Your ancestors had every right to fight British rule and be independent -- I consider it one of the greatest things about your history. Just because my ancestors took exception doesn't mean that strong-arming the "revolutionaries" was right. Strange how "strong- arming" the natives who lived on the land before seems to be considered OK.

I agree with Joel. My land is not OWNED by me -- I consider my mortgage payment a lease to use it -- while I'm here. Something the government requires of me to have the resources to provide for my children. The idea that beating someone for possession (call it war or not) still boils down to one thing -- mugging -- aka theft. Seems to me that BOTH of our countries have laws against that.

-- Tracy (trimmer@westzone.com), September 23, 2000.

I just have to say something....Owning land is a very alien concept to me at a heart level. You can't pick it up and take it with you, you can't OWN it. You can only caretake or pillage and rape it. What we do to each other in order to have either of those opportunities is generally despicable. I think the methods we employ to have that opportunity is usually indicative of how we will treat the land. God owns the earth and everything in it and it's up to us to treat the creations He has made with the dignity due them or to follow the Accusers lead and think we know better.

Off the box.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), September 23, 2000.

I, for one, think you belong on the box ! Speak ! We have a planet in the throws !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 23, 2000.

Kathy, Thank you for sharing your experiece with this forum. I see your post has gotten alot of response and I'd like to put in my 2 cents. You mentioned that you believe the Indians at the college have"every right to be prejudice and bitter" yet you dismissed the caucasian as a bigot. I'm 35, born and raised in the south, and I truly believe that the biggest racist/bigot/supremist views are held by the very people who think they are fighting it, white liberals!!! While myself and many like me were raised to believe in equality and equal opportunity, these people continue to push ideas that will bring the opposite result. They believe people of color cannot possibly succeed unless we (whites) give them all kinds of special treatment. They are quick to point out bigotry in they're own race (which I think is good) but will turn around and excuse it in other races on the grounds that they are oppressed and can't help it. All through history people have conquored other people. While this might not be nice it certainly isn't an invention of the white race. At least our goverment has colleges and programs in place that help the indians.

-- Mark M (markkk06@aol.com), September 24, 2000.

At least we have programs that help ? LMAO-- The Native American takes your "small token" sacrifice and laughs out loud at your stupidity ! So, you wish to present me with a gift of that thing that is already mine ?

Malcolm X once expressed the feelings of people of color when he said --" the white man is a devil dog"--and I for one believe he hit the nail on the head. From birth and even in school-- we are taught that bright colors are good, darker shades are bad.

The Native American doesn't need your money or your sympathy--no --quite the contrary ! Just pack up your welfare, and your worthless thoughts and laws and get the hell off his land !

I'm so stunned that after a 220 years of learning that people of the Homestead mindset could still find themselves bathed in ignorance on this subject. You don't owe anyone anything except the right to live in peace on your own land--except you forget who's land your on ! At least you could give credit to the TRUE LANDLORD of your property, even if you deny him his rent !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 24, 2000.

I'm a little confused here. The same ones that were advocating sucession of the states and putting all the gays in San Fransisco, are the same ones that object because the Indians were all put into one place. Selective segregation, no? The settlers were scared of the Indians because they weren't white and they weren't Christian. The Indians happened to be different.

Joel, I agree that no man "owns" the earth, but white man as the devil dog? There were many white men that stood up for the Indians. Henry Clay, Daniel Webster and Davy Crockett to name a few. But Andrew Jackson was President at the time of the Cherokee Removal, Trail of Tears, and the forces of opposing the removal fell on deaf ears. By the way, Andrew Jacksons' life had been saved in earlier years by a Cherokee named Junalaska at the Battle of Horse Shoe Bend. Guess Jackson must have forgotten that, huh? But does that make Jackson an evil man or of the Devil? Probably not. He had thousands of new immigrants coming to this country, looking for a place to live. And the Settlers were going to take the land regardless of what he would have done. My own ancestors came to this country from Ireland to leave behind the opression and starvation by the British. Which by the way, was in the 1860's, and they weren't out in the praries killing Indians, they were dirt poor and working as servants, if they could even get a job.

The Irish now have a country, at least most of one, which is better than the Indians have faired. But this country is unique. Our whole country is a nation of immigrants. People are still coming here to escape poverty and political abuse. Can we realistically give this country back to the Indians? Tell everyone to go back to the country of their ancestors? Southern Ireland wouldn't be bad, but I would not want to live in Northern Ireland.

Man has forever conquered others. It has brought us to where we are. All we can do now, is try to treat each other with some respect. And whether any one agrees or not, some of us "white" peoples' ancestors have had a hard time and have harmed no one, and deserve some respect too.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), September 24, 2000.

Joel, Although I always enjoy reading what you have to say, I believe this time I am at a loss. Are you sincerely suggesting "the white man" return this entire country back over to the Indians? And those who say no, are the enemy? How far would you take this? Just to the point of the white man, or back further within the tribes themselves and sort out from which tribe what was stolen? Is the United States the only country obligated to do this, or the whole world? And if so, would Israel be included?

As you can see, I do not understand your reasoning. I understand that the "white man" as well as tribes & nations from the beginning of time have committed horrible atrocities upon mankind. That this is so is not suprising, shocking yes, suprising no. We are told the reason for this in His Word. Sin. How long did it take from the time Adam & Eve were banned from the garden for the first murder to occur? Not Long. And prior to the act itself, murder was in the heart... of one born with a sin nature. I know you are a brother in Christ, that is the only reason I appeal to you at this level. Others will scoff, and scorn is readily available, but to those of us who accept and uphold His Word, it is Truth. You seem to suggest that anyone who would disagree regarding what is to be done now (after the fact, many generations) are the enemy. And this is why I felt compelled to post on this thread. I am not the enemy, nor do I believe are others here who have posted. Nor am I prejudice simply because I believe, like many others that I am not responsible for what my ancestors did. God will not hold ME accountable for anothers actions. I will be accountable for what I do, now. And I will not be sucked in to the camp (the left) that would bring down, brick by brick, this country and all that it stands (or, stood) for. Divide and conquer, from within, that we will implode. Then we shall truly be useless for the cause of Christ and His kingdom. Does this mean our history is spotless? Of course not, we are all born with a sin nature and thus will always seek to commit evil. But I do believe, we as a Nation, in the form of the concept of self-government, have saught to more closely align with biblical principles than has any Nation thus far. And thus, have been able to afford the citizenry the opportunity to glorify God and work to spread the Gospel from Nation to Nation.

Are we failing? Have we failed time & again? Yes, it is the nature (sin) of man. Should we surrender because we have not achieved perfection? No! I do believe that as a Nation we may either be under God's blessing or out of the protection of God's blessing. So we must decide now (currently) what we are to stand for. That is why I reject the way our govt, with it's mind-numbing, responsibility- removing, no accountability social programs are in opposition to the biblical form of "help", or restoration. And not with just the Indians, but many other groups of people as well. This does not mean I "hate".

Do you not consider the good that has been done? What about the Jews? Remember Hitler? Has the hand of God not moved to accomplish His puposes?

I think what I am trying to say (& not very well, I'm afraid), is the problem, from the beginning until now is a sin problem. The Indian Nations as well as many, many other peoples have suffered at the hands of others. We all have. Let us do, within the scope of our current position, all that we can to honor God and Glorify Him, in the time we have left. These same people that typically decry the treatment of Indians, blacks, women, gays, etc... are the same ones who would willingly (and currently) fight for the right to slaughter innocent unborn babies. They would and are fighting to remove all traces of God in our public and eventually private life. They are, currently,seeking to destroy the innocence of our children and our right to protect them, they seek to destroy all that God has called good and replace it with what "man" has deemed "good". Not all are willing, knowingly participants, but the end result is the same. Let us not be snared by their battle cry for the "justice" for mankind, in the name of mankind. Let us instead sound our own battle cry for the Holiness of our God and bring His justice, in His Name.

We must be careful to choose what we are willing to fight for. As for me, I will fight the battle currently being faught for the hearts and minds of the people. For make no mistake, a war is being waged, and the results are eternal. And the battle is not only being faught in the flesh. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), September 24, 2000.

Gee, Wendy, kind of a BIG generalization, don't you think???????:

You wrote:

"These same people that typically decry the treatment of Indians, blacks, women, gays, etc... are the same ones who would willingly (and currently) fight for the right to slaughter innocent unborn babies. They would and are fighting to remove all traces of God in our public and eventually private life. They are, currently,seeking to destroy the innocence of our children and our right to protect them, they seek to destroy all that God has called good and replace it with what "man" has deemed "good". "

Ummmm, I would have to say that I very much disagree! Sheesh! The very essence of prejudice, if you ask me...lumping everyone into a big nasty category! I can't even understand how you got to the conclusion based on your premises...is the word "typically" how you got there? Maybe based on your personal observations?

Gotta run otherwise I would write more...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 24, 2000.

Wendy, very well said.

I am one of those wailing for Secession so that we can preserve some of the original and Biblical foundations of this country. I do think that people of a similar bent can bring about a desired change by grouping together and appealing to God and the highest law.

Joel, please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation of your feelings. I think you are (as I am) disgusted with the legacy of murder left to us by our predecessors. It makes you feel the same outrage one feels over a rapist and their evil actions. A natural desire to seperate yourself from such behaviour makes you ashamed to be associated with it even through lineage. I am not accusing you of "white guilt", just a passion for right and wrong. I also see it as generational sin. But Wendy is right, we are only accountable for ourselves.

There isn't any way to go back in time and change the attrocities. Not for the Natives and not for the settlers.

It's kind of funny how the original white folks came here for religious and political freedom and the Indians saved their butts from starving to death in the winter and then more come and nearly annihilate the entire race, and now we have the annihilation of God in public and liberty in general truly coming to fruition. Interesting,no?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), September 24, 2000.

Doreen, yes, yes, yes, that is indeed interesting! In regards to the last portion of your post! The character of sin revealed.

Hey Sheepish, yes, I reached my conclusion through adding the word, typically. I think we can reach certain conclusions based on the typical standard. Maybe we need to define the word "prejudice". " A strong feeling for or against something formed before one knows the facts; bias. Irrational hostility toward members of a particular race, religion, or group." Common sense dictates nothing and no one is ever, ever ALL exactly the same. Not christians, athiests, races, political parties, genders, etc....... But, it is possible to have an understanding of what to "typically" expect. Now, lets make perfectly clear, my reference to those who "typically" support abortion, etc... is clearly, at least to me, geared to those that would elect and support and contribute to groups whose stated objectives are in opposition to the very character of God. The point being here, as I was trying to offer to Joel, that we must be careful to fully examine our battles, lest we get caught in the web of "divide and conquer" and thus, render ineffective (because we are so engaged in all these various battles being fought) our ability to reach towards the higher goal (of christians) to fight the good fight!

My "strong feelings" are not based on what I do not know, but rather on what I do know. And as a follower of Christ, I know the liberal worldview does not serve to uphold, support or encourage the fundamental principles found in scripture. Is this prejudice? No, because my observations come from actual, factual, stated positions from those who are self-identified liberals. Are there christians who would identify themselves as liberals? Yes, I believe there are. How is this reconciled? Only time will tell. Do I support your right to your or anyone else's worldview? Absolutley! Will I fight against as it pertains to our form of government? Yes. But even were I (my worldview)be the victor,Iwould never, ever support "forced" worldviews. That is not mine to do.

That you might disagree mightily with my understanding of scripture is also your right and your choice. I understand that what I believe to be truth in scripture will also be made known in the end. If I have been faithful to rightly divide the Word of God, Amen! If I have not been faitful to rightly divide His Word, then the consequences for that will be upon my head! I am willing (not that it matters) to accept that.

But really, my point was the fact that the battles being fought for the hearts and minds of the people,has always been and always will be. Let those of us who claim the name of Christ understand the times we are in and gird ourselves, that we are able to "stand firm" in our higher calling and let not the past, present or future stand in the way of what we have been called to do. We can not atone for the sins of our forefathers, but we can, from this point on work towards true restoration, through the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And fight to uphold Godly principles.

And that sin is the root of the problem, all of mankinds problems. And for Joel to rail against the "white man" is to fall into the trap of those who seek to distract from the real issue, sin. It was sin then, and it is sin today. The difference is now we are told it is prejudice or not being inclusive or bias or a thousand other labels, that remove sin from the picture, as tho we are able to rectify it by simply being "better" or "fairer" or "kinder". Thus, the need for a savior is removed, because we are able to combat "prejudice" by our own efforts at fairness. Wrong, the way to combat sin is through the one who gave himself up to sin, that we might truly right our wrongs in a way that can only be done through the change of heart & mind that comes through repentence. Godly repentence, not "mans" version of repentence. Ugh, now I have really done it.... I know this is very offensive to many and it was not my intent to go into all this to such depth. I did point out to Joel, the only reason I brought the Lord into the picture, was because I was posting to him and I knew him to be a brother in Christ. Otherwise, I would have not have offered that, as I know many could care less or get agitated. Geesh Sheepish, you just had to go and post...LOL! Anyway, there you have it, I hope it clarifies better how I reasoned out my original statement. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), September 24, 2000.

I grew up in an extrememly prejudiced home. Asking why only got answers like, you'll find out when you grow up, or, it's the way it is. This didn't make sense to me. (My son-in-law is black. I'm not particularly fond of him, but that has absolutely nothing to do with his skin color not to thrilled with my daughter right now either.) As I've grown up, I have encountered things that were easy to hate, but! I couldn't accept the hate. I looked at everything from every angle and asked questions and prayed. The answer I got is FORGIVENESS. It does take time to forgive especially if there's lots of hate and hurt. We can't change the past, whether we're right or wrong isn't the point. What we all need to do is go forward and with God's help leave the past in the past and learn from the mistakes so we don't repeat them again.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), September 24, 2000.

I need to apologize for one of my earlier posts. It now sounds to me like a moralizing, self-righteous, S-O-B the way I critized everyone. I humbly apologize to everyone.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), September 24, 2000.

Joel, it troubles me that you would call me "bathed in ignorance" simply because I have a different point of view than you. I believe the word for your mindset would be BIGOT. Or is that prejudiced? Anyway it doesn't matter because we're all entitled to our own beliefs right? I just want you to clear up one little thing for me... You stated earlier that anybody who thought they owned land were fools because it "WAS NOT given to them by their parents but instead leased to them by their children. Then later you state that I'm ignorant because I won't acknowledge my TRUE LANDLORD(the american indian)nor will I pay him his rent which is due!!!! I thought this last statement to be halairious since I was taught in public school that ideas of "ownership" and "rent" were concepts of evil white people. Since you give me options, I will take your first point of view which was basically I'm a custodian of my children and their future. Since I can't think of anywhere else where they can live as good as they do now, I will do my best to promote the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, and the rights and freedoms(and responsibilities) of this great land. If anybody can direct me to place outside of the good ole USA where I can(1)enjoy those same rights and freedoms,(2)see many different races and cultures experiance these same rights and freedoms and (3)be welcomed there as who I am, please make me aware, I;d like to visit.

-- Mark M (markkk06@aol.com), September 24, 2000.

I don't think people of any race or color should be given special treatment, and I don't excuse bigotry in any race. I grew up in Oakland, CA in the 60s and 70s, and I went to schools that were almost all black. One day, in Junior High, on the bus ride home a black girl and her friends came up to me and slapped me across the face because I was white. Do I hate blacks? No. That was probably one of the best lessons I ever learned about judging people for what they are and not what they look like. And I am not saying anyone should give "the indians" back the land, although sometimes I wonder what life would be like if the native americans had won the struggle for this country. Would it be worse? Would it be better? What I am saying is that we should treat each other with respect.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), September 25, 2000.

First, let me say that I have strong ties with the tribal councils of several "Indian Nations" ! That would tend to give me a different perspective. I think when you ask me--What should we do to make it right ? --that you ask the wrong person. Maybe we should sit in council and ask the chiefs ?

The white settlers, and white people in general have a way of grouping their wrongs in catergories and making laws to somehow justify criminal behavior, thus "the devil dog" name. Not only did they do it, many of you have just repeated the same crime by somehow rationalizing theft as a necessary evil and that embraces the the devil dog theory. I'm not calling names and I'm a white eupropean ancestor myself. So hold your fire !, this is thinking and not a war.

My thoughts on what we could do to return some form of Justice to our brothers we stole from are--1. I think the tribes should be given representation in Congress and Senate as Seperate Entities( just like adding states) wih at least 2 votes per Nation in the Senate. 2. Abolish the reservation theory. The land is theirs but let them be like us--free to come and go as they please ! 3. Erase the textbooks and start over. Teach history as it was--The white settlers stole the land-The government was a co-conspiritor in the crimes of murder and theft ! 4. Return what lands we have left to them--namely our national forests. Let them return to a good and natural state of life--to hunt and fish and to be nomadic. Let them worship in the old ways.

I believe that a wrong was committed and I believewe have within our power to write this wrong. If only in a small way it is still an honest attempt to rectify great wrongs. For those who say-- It wasn't me and I'm tired of hearing about it "-- than I say to you---When you accepted your birthright to become an American that you took all that goes with it. The good, the bad, and the UGLY. Our treatment of a conquered foe in this instance was UGLY ! Making ammends will not change that ! However, it could be our finest hour to correct it.

I can never hope to explain all I feel on justice by writing on paper. Justice is all I know and feel in my soul. I believe LBF once said she was born an empath. Me too, from my youngest remembrence, I have fought for the down trotten, never even considering what the personal cost to myself would be. I can only refer to Ted Kennedy's remarks in Bobby's eulogy--"Some men see things as they are, and say why ? I see things that never were, and say why not ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 25, 2000.

Wow! I have been away too long. What has happened to all my generous, kind, friends here on this forum? I had my eyes open to racial bigotry when I lived on the beautiful island of Kauai. You see the local people hate haoles(that's us white folks). I had sweet old ladies ram my grocery cart, been bumped out of the way at the laudramat, and told to get the hell out of their country!. This was very upsetting to me, as a person who had friends of every race and religion. And I realized what blacks, Native Americans, Jews, Jehovahs Witnesses, Hispanics (and whatever the rest of my friends are) must have gone through all their lives and believe me, I did not like how I was treated. It is a sad state when one human feels he/she is better than another because they have more money or education or have the "correct skin color" or belong to the "correct religion" or "correct politcal party" But my fellow homesteaders, we must all keep trying to be the best persons we can be, and we will never be like Jesus who forgave us all for our many sins, but we really should try.

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), September 25, 2000.

I wish I had more time to stay here and discuss! Oh well. Just a couple of my thoughts, quickly...I had early experiences with prejudice that taught me a lot. I was thoroughly beat up by some black kids when I was in the sixth grade. I grew up in a white area and had no idea that I would get the response to my "challenges" that I made to them! (Same ones I would have made to my white friends!) I was fearless, all by myself! (and naive beyond belief!). I got a point of reference and a life lesson in a BIG hurry. And I turned my other cheek (what was left of it!)I had no idea that other folks didn't benefit from the same securities and "luxuries" that I had. When I sought to understand why, I got a real blessing in social understanding.

Jesus said "Whoever wants to be first must be last of all and servant of all". Very wise words! I am interested in one-on-one attitudinal changes. That's where it all starts! ALWAYS!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 25, 2000.

Joel, I have some questions on your propositons.

Giving them representation is a fine idea, and I agree with it EXCEPT for the fact that they would cease being Nations and therefore be subjected to yet another type of treaty breaking as our Constitution gets legislated to death. If we still actually operated under a Constituional government, I would have no qualms about it.

As for abolishing the reservations.... I may not know enough about this, but I thought the tribes were free to leave reservations as they wished. This was the case in Northern Wisconsin, when I lived there in another lifetime. Although I do remember when I was really young a shutdown at Wounded Knee. (Yet another Fed gov intrusion)

Erasing the History books and starting over should be done as regards pretty much everything right now! I was an excellent student of History in the Government Training Centers and unfortuanately as I grew older and read more History I found about 70% of the premises for the actions that make up our history were bunk. So let's just get the REAL histories taught to all and it would be fine to start with the truths being told about the native American slaughters.

I would much rather see the tribes having "ownership" of the National Parks, certainly better than the United Nations. Yet I fear that we have done too much to destroy these people already and would like to see some clauses regarding NO CASINOS being allowed in the National Parks.

I think it was Mike way up in the thread who said that we should honor the treaties NOW. The only problem with that is that we have taken posession of most of the land that was discussed in those treaties and now we would have to make indigents of all people who live on that land. Ie. ..."All you descendants of other than Native American Indians get out of Oklahoma. Now." Poor Lil Bit would have to pack up her wares and head right back to Cali.

I don't mean to be nitpicky or contentious, I just would like to see what can really be done. Solving a problem by making more problems isn't really solving anything. I think if the tribes can keep their sovereignty they are better off than we, but at this point in history I think their sovereignty is only held on a piece of paper and has no basis in fact, just like ours.

So if we could push to give the national parks to the Indian Nations, do you think the Sierra Club would stand for it?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), September 26, 2000.

Well, this has certainly been entertaining! From prejudice to Native Americans on to Blacks, gays, war, the Klan, Jews, Hitler, Jamaicans and Jesus. I think I'll wander on back to the chicken and goat threads, now! I'm just flat out exhausted....

ps: Darrell... been to Gallup, love the flea market, love the Big Rez, love the people; nice folks out there. debra in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), September 26, 2000.

It is with some trepidation that I wade into this thread. It seems to me that back a few years ago (quite a few years ago, probably) some tribes were given individual family ownership of their lands, i.e. each family was given title to a certain portion of the tribe's reservation, so it was private property; and the people being at that point pretty ignorant of what private property was (not part of their culture) a lot of them sold it to the first opportunist with cash that came along. Hopefully that wouldn't happen again, as I'm sure there is more awareness of the value of the property. But on the other hand, if they've been living on a reservation their whole lives, they may still not have as much awareness as would be needed to protect their property rights. I have no problem with the tribes retaining their reservation lands, but I do think that the people who've gotten off the reservations and are living out here with the rest of us are for the most part better off. They may have lost some of their culture, but if that culture is being retained at the cost of people living in squalor and poverty with poor educations and poor health care -- and worst of all, poor feelings about themselves -- maybe the price is too high. Those of you who feel native culture ought to be retained at all costs, don't eat me -- yes, I'm white, but have friends and relatives who are native or part, and have seen some of the reservations. There are some real problems there. I don't think, however, that we can solve them. The people who live there are going to have to work through this themselves. Solutions that are imposed from without seldom work. As far as people having bad attitudes towards natives, it's too bad, they are missing a lot of blessings. Doesn't change the fact, though, that alcoholism and drug-abuse are higher amongst the native populations, for a number of reasons. Poverty and hopelessness are contributing factors, but not the whole story -- there may be physiological reasons, too.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 26, 2000.

I think if you let the tribes return to their nomadic lifestyle that they would return to the old ways. Alcohol would cease to exist as the cheifs and elders school the young. The Indian would return to living off nature as God intended everyone to live. I still think they deserve representation in the government and 2 votes in the Senate for each Nation would/could out vote our present number of states and let the true landlord of this country get some justice !

If a Native American leaves the reservation they lose their "Indian Checks" this is why most don't leave. They are mostly still imprisoned by the Bureau of Indian affairs ! We need to abolish this part of government, if we do nothing else.

I've heard many mention casino's. For the most part the Native American was cheated by this. Yes, they get a very small % of the money. VERY SMALL !!! Mosty all they got was the right to work for 5 bucks an hour in the kitchen of the casino. The big profits are kept by the gaming commissions and the real owners of the casinos from Nevada. There are only a handful of Indian owned casinos.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 26, 2000.

Joel, there's a bunch of casinos owned by Natives out here. Big bucks, big business, and big debates, sometimes even issues on the ballot. I don't think organized crime is involved in it here.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 26, 2000.

I was a leader of an affirimative action group(Native American) Part of this is learning the truth of the history. It was very difficult to do once I saw that every tribe had a trail of tears. Part of the job was to find Native Americans to come work for us. That was almost impossible. Because of that it turned into an education program aimed at explaining their situation. Most Native American speakers that I got from North and South eastern tribes said many of the same things. One of which is the fact that most of their actual history was lost to them. It would be very hard to go back. They are trying to preserve what they can. Many don't want to go back but want a better life with respect. With out the Buffalo the plains Indians could not survive. That was the main food source. How do you replace millions of animals long gone. Some tribes are raising buffalo but they will never be in numbers large enough. Since this country is based on law (ha ha) there should be no problem getting the old treaties put back in place. By the way we never beat them fairly and we never will. Do you realize that the US supreme court ruled in favor of a Native American tribe but state governments disregarded it. They sent them on the trail of tears instead. Has anyone stated the way they feel to their congressmen on this issue? I have.

-- Nick Tepsick (wildheart@ekyol.com), September 26, 2000.

Joel, I'm glad you have kept this thread going. Some of your first remarks made me angry, but I couldn't get them out of my mind. I guess that's what makes a good discussion. I use to be like you. I'd sit on my hill, looking at the Smoky Mountains and thinking how beautiful this area must have been when the Cherokees were here. No pavement everywhere, garish store fronts, billboards, etc. I've always wished I could have seen this area 150 years ago. But, it made me sad. So, I guess I try to justify it in my mind that it's for the better. And also, what can I possibly do about it now? It's out of control. The State was widening a road a few counties from us and came upon an Indian burial ground. The Indians themselves have had to fight like crazy to keep the State from destroying it! I think alot of us are in the position that we don't know how to help or what exactly the Indians want. They seem to stick to their own and are leary of outsiders . Can't blame them, but that puts us in an ignorant position. Where do you start?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), September 26, 2000.

Hoot has a new topic about small farms being lost to big companies (and some other things). I posted something to that which I have been musing about for a day or so, in reflection of some of the issues mentioned here.

I would think that Homesteaders would have more sympathy to Native Americans and their history, in that we are a (sub)culture at risk these days, ourselves. We are in danger of losing our lands and being disenfranchised, but in this case to corporate farms and agribusiness, and other entities. I mean no disrespect by the analogy, as I know there is nothing that speaks to the horrors of genocide and the violence that accompanied the Indian's situation. We certainly don't have that to deal with. But there are some interesting parallels, perhaps, even if very simplified.

Think about how much the land means to you, and what you would do if you were driven off of it, let's say by Cargill (Hoot mentions). Not at gunpoint, but economically...Do you think you would fight for redress? How about your kids 150 years later? Would they still be fighting it, in court, in the family name? What if you were driven out of business, and then shunned and forced to live on welfare in a city? Or on non-productive land somewhere far away? And told you couldn't homeschool anymore but that your kids had to go to some big public institution where they spoke (pick a language) Russian?? And they had to live away from you to go to school?

I was just thinking about the analogies to some of the freedom issues that we discuss all the time. I thought it interesting to put the shoe on the other foot for a while....hmmmm.....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 27, 2000.

Anne, Sheepish already answered your question--where doe we start ?--IN YOUR HEART ! It all begins with the man / woman in the mirror. This is where all change begins. It is very acceptable fo you or others to get angry at me. That is why I'm here ! Sometimes you must get angry to see the the blinders we all have. If I opened your mind than I succeeded. God gave me special armor to withstand peoples anger. It works most of the time, although it fails me with full blown bigots. Nobody's perfect !

Sheepish, Some tribes were smart enough to not bring in the big casino's as managers but than they were eaten alive by state gaming commissions. The literture I've read states the tribes actually lose money on their casinos. Not really sure what a profit is myself these days. I think I handle a lot more money but basically I'm just the mail man ! I receive the check in the mail and mail it tommorrow to some other person--none of it is profit. I think the article I read had their profit margin at less than 1%. Who knows ! I know the Iowa tribes got stiffed real bad by Vegas.

Can anyone tell me what heading this thread is under in the archives ? I used recently answered to find it tonight after being unsuccessuful in the archives.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 27, 2000.

Joel, It is under stories.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), September 27, 2000.

Sheepish, you forgot (?) to mention being forbidden to practice your own religion. And I will mention that children in the "white man's schools" were not only forbidden to speak their natural languange, the language of their families, at many schools, they were beaten when they disobeyed. Young children. Yes, that would tend to make you bitter . . . .

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), September 28, 2000.

Joy, yes, and there's undoubtedly so much more that I don't know about. I just cannot imagine the heartbreak...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 28, 2000.

pejudices suk

-- jake koppen (saddlebronc@msn.com), November 08, 2000.

ALright Joel! You go guy. I like the idea of getting rid of all you yahoos who don't belong here.Go back to where you came from and let us native bloods figure it out, for ourselves.'course that means hubbie will have to go back to what was yugoslavia bc he's got not a drop of native blood in him.Oh well,I sure will miss him a lot.

More seriously, there were alot of wrongs done.Many Tribes were not monadic,but farmers.They were taken off.Alot of Cherokee ran to the hills here when the forced removal of the cherokee was done.I guess that's why we are treated with distain as well,us hillbillies is just the progeny of a bunch of half breeds,don't you know.We re told it's alot like the reservations,here.

I remember growing up that you knew abt your red blood but didn't talk about it bc it was considered shameful.Kinda like being Jewish in germany during that time.Or jewish in rural America,for that matter.

When My mom was a girl,she remembers natives still had to have numbers,and this was back east.Kids from the reservations out west were taken away to be schooled in english ways and not allowed to have their own culture or idenity.One of the schools was in Carlisle PA. This was not very long ago at all.So we do have at the very least a big apology owed to those whowere treated so callously.Some are still alive despite this countries best efforts to exterminate them.How do we condenm other countries for their ethnic cleansing when we would'nt apologize for our own.

And billyb or joel or any of you other southern white boys,or danm yankees or "granolas"(I learned a new term this week!!) out there, why,you don't like what I say,well you just come right on over and we'll settle it outside,once and for all!! Ummmm....by the way,just how BIG a boy are you? I just remembered... I might have a trip to take,so in case I'm not here you can go ahead and 'discuss' it with hubbie.I expect he can represent my point of view alright!(o: hahaha

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 08, 2000.

This to Sharon WT. I will admit i am prejudice and i hate dam nigros! Black and Niggers are different though. Blacks can be nice but them dam niggers just hate white cus of the color. And they cant fight fair neither. They have too walk in a pack with 3 or 4 just so they dont get their ass kicked. I am not prejudice of Yankees too inform u though. But i am tired of seeing all the responses about not affending niggers but i just dont give a F*** about affending them.

-- billy bob white (john_joseph@angelfire.com), January 07, 2001.