Report on the LUG meeting with Leica, Photokina 2000-09-30

Prepared by Jem Kime, editor and reporter of Leica Postal Portfolios.

http://www.lpp.org.uk http://www.lpp.org.uk

Posted with permission

Present for Leica were: Rolf Kreuger, Production Manager; Stefan Daniel, M System Product Manager; Roland Wolff, Internet / Web design; Horst Schroeder, Optical Design; Steffan Gold, Public Relations.

LUG members and other invited guests totalled around 30 including the new Canadian distributor. After an introduction the meeting unfolded as a Q &A session.

Panel - What about an electronic shuttered M? (There was prototype made in 1986 called the M6E)

Leica - We're working on that camera, we are aware that there is a market waiting for this but we're a small company that has to be very careful over its finance, ensuring turnover. If we were to announce this before its ready then we could not sell off old stock.

Panel - What about R-system development?

Leica - We've concentrated on the M system recently and there have also been new binoculars and compact cameras, we can assure you the R system isn't dead.. There will be new products next year. Two years ago we announced the 35-70/2.8 but that lens still isn't in production. In future w will finish the design and release when ready. The R system is very important to Leica's turnover but if we have too many projects on the go at one time it becomes like a motorway creating a traffic jam.

Panel - With these new products will that mean increased production capacity?

Leica - No, we will not increase overall. We have announced the 28 Summicron-M and it will be available in February 2000, the samples are good and it will go into production. There's no capacity problem but we have a delivery delay on some current products. The market that Cosina and Konica have created has actually helped our sales, we have a huge 35/2 backlog.

Panel - What was the marketing idea behind the Null series camera?

Leica - Let me explain the history, we had a request from Japan to reproduce the Ur Leica but to us that is almost a 'holy' camera and this created a big discussion which concluded in us deciding if they could see a market then we should make the camera ourselves. After taking the camera out of the safe and examining it we discovered we would have to change to much to make it usable, something we were intent upon. For instance Oskar barnack always had to load film into the camera in a darkroom, it did not accept cassettes, it became apparent it was impractical. We then decided to recreate the Leica 1 but realised there were still so many on the market, so we eventually came to the O series. We took the camera from the museum, looked up the drawings and changed only a few design points to create a usable camera, making pictures with this is so much fun! It will appeal not only to collectors but users too. Herr Cohn (CEO Leica) remarks that it approximates golf, in that to use it you need to concentrate totally on the task in hand.

Panel - Will there be autofocus for the R-system?

Leica - Hardly. If you are aware of our history you'll know that we were at the start of autofocus back in the 1970s and two years ago we looked really hard again at the possibility of installing it into the R camera. Now if we insist on compatibility with the lens mount, and we feel this is a really important thing for ourselves and our customers, then it would be really, really expensive. If we changed the bayonet mount then it would be cheaper but how many present owners would be happy with that? Few. We know people have invested extensively in our system and we feel sure that we would have to find a new, much smaller market. So we come back to the finance question, can we make money out of this? It's not really possible. Look at the Contax system (perhaps our closest rivals) they will sell maybe 3000 units a month with only 4 lenses and 2 more announced, and that's not really a system. Compared with other manufacturers we have about 20 years to catch up and we need to do that in 2-3 years, comparison is never possible.

Also we have examined focus confirmation or assistance recognition but the difficulty is in installing contrast measurement circuitry, it has to be built into the body and that is not possible with the current design. The motors to drive the lens are not difficult, that's the easy part, but the difficult part is contrast measuring which is required for either focus confirmation or autofocus, that is 90% of the task.

Panel - the size of the camera has got larger, can you envisage a smaller R body? Also, perhaps you could produce lenses for other camera systems?

Leica - We have learnt our lesson with the size and weight of the R8, but until the camera has paid for itself we cannot start to create a different design, there will be developments of this body shape to come.

Yes, we have considered selling our lenses for other cameras, mounted for Nikon, Canon etc. but other manufacturers have categorically said 'No'.

Panel - I use an R8, its big and bulky but its the most ergonomic R camera I've ever used. You can't change the size but there are positive aspects to that, a large part of the public like that too.

Panel - Will you be creating a 1.4x Apo extender to work with all the R lenses from 50mm?

Leica - As a question for the optical designer the answer is technically feasible but from a production manager's perspective it is a difficult item to sell, volume will never be high. Most people want a 2x converter if they are buying one at all, they perceive it as better value for money, they don't realise that there are many advantages to a 1.4x extender but in our opinion it would not create enough sales to justify the selling price.

Panel - I want a 1.4x extender and a 180mm (lens) with eyes for the M system, I've played with these items already (produced in prototype form) courtesy of Rolf Fricke.

Leica - We have just finished creating a new lens and feel there are not many things to do with the M system.

Panel - Look at extreme wide angles, what Cosina's brought to the market, there's still stuff to do.

Panel - there's never been a fish-eye lens created for the rangefinder system yet.

Panel - I've a marketing question, after I've finished buying what I need, compared to other companies, Leica seem to do very little to tempt me to part with more money.

Leica - In recent years we have had to concentrate on sorting out our immediate financial concerns, now the company is more stable we can expand our range of fripperies. The Leica boutique, the Leica School, perhaps taught in English, etc.

Panel -Perhaps you could make and sell glasses, like Zeiss?

Leica - There would be a marketing problem to solve and advertising to cost, which is expensive. It's not an emotional product and we believe its more important to concentrate on developing digital.

Panel - Will we see the return of a screw mount Leica?

Leica - At present we have no plans to return to screw mount camera production, we've made the O series camera, we're aware of the strong retro market in Japan but we will re-evaluate the situation after the O series has exhausted its demand for production.

Panel - Why is there no 24mm frame in the new M6 TTL 0.58?

Leica - Of course we looked at this possibility when we were designing the camera, but when we examined the image seen of the frame with the lens and hood in position, more than a quarter of the frame was lost, therefore it was neither practical nor useful. Also there was a technical reason, the masks in the viewfinder system are cut within a fine sheet which in itself is too small to contain a 24mm mask.

Panel - And what of these rumours of developing into the medium format market?

Leica - This is a myth developed after a misunderstanding by journalists after something that Herr Cohn (CEO Leica) said.

Panel - I would like a low cost entry level Leica, perhaps this could be built by teaming up with Cosina?

Leica - We will focus on the M-system but Herr Cohn has said we will enlarge the product family and one camera could be a lower price. We recently took the CL out to re-examine it, I doubt if we shall replicate that but we are keen to enlarge our group of Leica users. As you can see from the new image we have tried to create at this year's Photokina, with the stand, the brochures, the web site and the advertising.

Panel - What about accessories? In the mid 1970s you chopped the line almost completely. For example the copy legs, and copy stand (16511) these are often more convenient than using the R system. It's a good market, you could even sub-contract production. Leica must have made most of its fortune in the 1930s through its accessories.

Leica - Nowadays the opposite is true, on some accessories we hardly make anything. Its very difficult to handle them all, filters, bags, all that stuff. I agree though that if there are more useful accessories then maybe we should make them and give up the ones that aren't selling.

Panel - And what about continuing production of black paint cameras? The Millennium edition is already selling at nearly double the price.

Leica - We will not begin regular production now, it would not be fair to those who bought the cameras knowing them to be limited production. They need to be exclusive, but wait a while and see, its good that they are seen as so desirable and that the model holds a premium price.

Panel - Picasso was asked if he was happy that a painting of his had sold for one million pounds, 'No', he replied, 'I sold it originally for five pounds'. The story seems similar to Leica, they are not receiving the advanced prices of these camera re-sales. Where is Leica's digital future heading?

Leica - We are investigating that, so far the development of digital technology has not made it sensible to develop our own digital consumer cameras, things have been out-dated in 6 months, now the horizon seems to be more stable. What we bring out mustn't be a copy, it needs to be modular, we need to keep our lens system but if we do that at present the chips (24mm x 36mm) are very expensive, $1000. The alternative is to use a smaller chip but that would mean the lens range become largely telephotos, we have to find a way to go into that business.

Panel - The M system would lend itself rather well to converting the back and having a data storage system within a new baseplate.

Panel - You produced the S1 digital camera, what have you learnt from that?

Leica - In Japan, in a single company, 400 engineers produce ten new cameras a year. Here we have only 60 people in R & D, responsible for analogue as well as digital, it is not easy to do things alone, look at Rollei.

Panel - The APS market seems an incongruous one for Leica, why?

Leica - We will certainly concentrate on 35mm but we have to decide what to do in the compact market. We wanted a small compact camera with the features that are in the new C11 and found we could not make that in 35mm, so we knew we could in the APS size. The consumer's perspective is different to ours here, They go into a shop and largely buy a camera on looks, some really don't care who has made the camera, it will also bring new people to the Leica family.

Panel - Congratulations on the new M motor drive. Could there be a faster Tri-Elmar perhaps?

Leica - Think of what f-stop you'd like?

Panel - F2.8?

Leica - then think of the viewfinder and where the front element would be and what you'd see in the viewfinder, these issues dictate the feasibility of creating such a lens.

Panel - Are you thinking of making some new short focal length lenses (like Cosina/Voigtlander)?

Leica - that would be a nice addition to the M system but you have to calculate lens cost against sales volume and price. It would certainly be a nice addition to the range, we're thinking seriously on this topic.

Panel - How do you think Cosina have achieved all their designs at such low cost?

Leica - Perhaps these are only hobby items for the Cosina owner (he can afford to indulge himself).

(Leica then chose to say something on the changes that were going on within the company.)

Leica - The Leica booth here at Photokina this year is decidedly different, and at Solms there will also be changes. The company is being rebuilt. Since Herr Cohn arrived there have been many changes made and a clearer brand image is being created along with a new strategy. There's a new corporate design with a new board of managers looking after the new structure of the company. What you see at Photokina represents the same inside Leica, hopefully we're more innovative but it will perhaps take two years to complete this transition of mind-set at Leica.

We do not want to throw away our heritage, we have a focus of 'Quality, precision and solidity', we know we have to make large inroads into our production times to market and we will see distinct progress in that area.

Panel - You've been using Leica's image to get premium price for product, is there a danger of debasing the image with APS, Digilux and 'point and shoot' compact cameras? Should you consider distinguishing between your 'professional' and 'consumer' ranges?

Leica - This issue was first discussed years ago with the Leica AFC-1, but buying in a product is more than that with Leica, there's real design work, it's more than just badging someone else's product, we're on the top level of the segment.

Panel - Well could I suggest a 'Pro Division' for the M and R lines then?

Leica - We're heading in that direction, maybe not with those names, but we certainly have to qualify the top end product.

Panel - The Leica market is 'mature', it's obviously important that you should attract young people in to buy, but how?

Leica - We are striving for that with new designs and marketing. We are seeking to reach them with more modern fresh designs. The new market is for modern people wishing to leave auto / digital technologies and lose their phones and lap tops etc. They want to do something real, not virtual at the weekend, there is a lot of interest in the O Series shown by young people.

Panel - There's a big difference of presentation between dealers in Germany and Belgium, it is hard to find any stock at all in Belgium. But in Zurich, where I now live, there are 6 or 7 shops alone that carry a wide range. Are you looking to upgrade your distribution channels?

Leica - Yes, new distributors will change the situation as soon a s possible. The new distributor for Canada is here today, we have also appointed a new distributor for the Far East, Taiwan, Singapore and also Finland, and these are part of the changes taking place at the company.

Panel - Can I ask about craftsmanship? Some people complain Leicas are not as good as they used to be, are you happy?

Leica - Part of the changes here are to have better project management. The better designed things are the less chance there is for error and disappointment with the end user. New products are focused on that improvement. Perceived quality problems are not always a reality, the black paint M6 felt exactly like an M3.

Panel - But there have been examples of disappointment, I found a lens not working, I found dirt in lenses, maybe I had 2 or 3 bad boxes but this doesn't seem good.

Leica - There have been changed made in production, we've had some bad cases and they have to be eliminated. We are going to introduce a certificate for signature by the people responsible, which will be included with the product, so there are changes ahead.

Panel - Do you have specific plans to eventually place all production inside Leica or are you happy to continue sourcing lenses, for example, outside of your company?

Leica - We have an interest in increasing our optical knowledge and we wish to keep as much as possible 'in house' but looking at any project we need to evaluate the possibilities open to us and work accordingly. We keep a close control of any out-sourcing, as we cannot make everything we'd like to 'in house'. A topical example is the 15 Super Elmar-R which as you know has been made by Zeiss for us, at Photokina it is not here as Zeiss has recently stopped production. We will have a new lens to replace it, it will not be a Leica lens but very comparable in quality, smaller, lighter and faster. There is no point in designing and building at this point.

Panel - Do you foresee the potential for website development to include the direct sale of cameras and lenses?

Leica - Yes we will expand our website but we have no plans for direct selling, the distributors are a key part of the Leica chain. There is also at present a 'hook up' between the website and German dealers in terms of coupons which can be exchanged for free prints with the new Digilux 4.3.

Panel - Do you have a list of all the modifications still available at the factory? This used to be available in the last website but seems to be missing from the present one. For example, are you still willing to convert an M1 into an M2?

Leica - Yes, we still will update R lenses to ROM and this is feasible for other areas as well. In fact all the specifications are on our website.

Panel - Do you monitor the conversation on the Leica User Group internet list?

Leica - Unfortunately not, it would take one person all his working day to do this! We receive feedback through the Leica Forum on our website, letters and we can obviously access the LUG here, both in person, or as necessary on our computers. But so many of the questions are the same, they can seem repetitive, I think we should put a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) page on our website.

And that was where the meeting concluded, after 2 hours and the moderator noticing that some of the participants were having trouble staying awake! He thanked Leica for making this meeting possible and this sentiment was heartily endorsed by the listeners. Following this, informal conversation continued for another 10-15 minutes while brochures were made available for collection. The group then adjourned to re-meet at a restaurant that evening for a wild night of non-stop Leica conversation.

Jem Kime

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), October 03, 2000

Answers

Nice to hear from the horses mouth that they are really going to eventually come out with an M camera with some automation. It was interesting to me to realize that "Leica" as I think of it doesn't really exist--it is in actuality a small group of people designing and manufacturing this stuff that we like, who have the complicated task of balancing their limited resources with the expressed demands of Leica lovers worldwide, and up against competition that has a much greater budget to work with. I found it educational.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), October 03, 2000.

I found it educational too.

Leica - "We have learnt our lesson with the size and weight of the R8". (Note the admittance of error) He continues, "but until the camera has paid for itself we cannot start to create a different design".

Small wonder that Leica cannot get upright financially. Sticking with a money loser until by some magic you go from red to black before you change the design. Good money after bad.

The toughest management decisions are not just admitting the mistake, but taking actions to correct it.

Sounds to me like this small group of individuals spend alot of time sitting around a table discussing ideas but rarely coming up with good ones, or worse, failing to act when they manage to stumble upon one.

I also enjoyed Leica's satisfaction over the rising prices of a limited and out of production model (Millenium model). How is it that Leica profits? Seems to me that it would turn away the "young" crowd they want to capture. Only a select few people can afford to enjoy "exclusive" cameras. But that has been the Leica way for decades, cater to the collectors and damn the market that will help the company survive.

At least the new target market will have a nice APS point and shoot, and the collectors can dream about their very own Ur-Leica. Sheesch!

-- Tim Kamke (openmri@execpc.com), October 03, 2000.

Maybe I am living in the past, but I always thought Leica was the one constant in the photographic maze.... the place that I could come back to when I felt abandoned by Nikon and all of the crap they are putting out now under the guise of progress.

Leica has a "built in loyalty".... it is not like you can go to the other premium rangefinder builder. Maybe they should stop this "If we build it they will come" philosophy and listen to the people who have supported them when it seemed like the insane thing to do. Being of limited means, I could have bought a heck of a lot more camera for the Dollar... But I believed I was entering into a rarified place by throwing caution to the wind and going with the legendary line.

I will never not have Leica cameras... but it is beginning to look like the ones I have are the ones I will have. Even in the corporate double speak... there is an admittance that quality is not the same as when I entered into this wink and nod contract... "I will pay the big bucks... you sell me the best cameras that can be assembled by man."

Leica needs to assemble several focus groups of actual photographers.... not collectors, and listen to the needs of those people who use their cameras. Dismissing Cosina for indulging in the "hobby" of producing lenses... lenses which are being embraced by the heretofore snobbish Leica users... is a telling statement to me. Admitting that attention was wrongly directed, and a promise to play catch-up would have been a better response to the question of more unique lenses, like those being put out by Cosina.

Hopefully these cameras we use daily won't be rendered instant collectables because the manufacturer ceases to exist. If they can't write-off the R8, how many more mistakes can they absorb and remain solvent?

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 03, 2000.

As someone who attended the meeting, I got the impression, the R8 "learned our lesson quote" was not meant to say the camera was too big or a mistake, but rather we learned, not to introduce a product before it is ready and we can deliver it in a timmmely fashion. Remember for eachone of you out there who hate the R8, there's someone who loves it. Lastly, remember English is NOT the primary language of the people from Leica.

-- Sal DiMarco, Jr. (SDMP007@pressroom.com), October 04, 2000.

Sal's quite right of course, there could be much lost in the instantaneous translation of Leica's thoughts and the English words which slipped from their lips. For my part, although Leica acknowledged the lesson learnt from the delay taken with getting products to the market place, I felt that this other lesson (of the R8 appearing large to many potential customers), was another lesson learnt by them, that most people would prefer a smaller camera. I also agree with Sal wholeheartedly, the R8 is the most ergonomic reflex Leica have ever made, if I could afford one I'd buy one, until then I'll content myself with my SL2. Jem

-- Jem Kime (jem.kime@cwcom.com), October 04, 2000.

To continue the R8 with no changes while it's still a financial loser is the real key, whether the mistake was it's size or it's intoduction.

And what is this business about, "not many things to do with the M system"? If they would invest a little time to monitor the user group on-line (which hardly takes an entire day to do as he suggests) they might learn that an electronic shutter and/or auto exposure could enhance M sales.

Why are they thinking of expanding, "fripperies" like the boutique and school instead of meeting the changing needs of its customers? While these fripperies are nice they will not pay the bills or expand customer base.

-- Tim Kamke (openmri@execpc.com), October 04, 2000.

Good points Sal

The R8 is a good product - just different.

I suspect Leica do not know how Cosina have produced their lenses at the price they have - their business model is not known to the folks at Leica, hence his less than serious response. The acid test will be whether Cosina can really afford to keep their r/f items on the market. If the r/f market expands then they may succeed. Leica, I suspect, may think that Cosina are losing money on many of the Voigtlalnder lenses, but naturally do not know.

I as intrigued by their idea of a lower-cost M. The real killer (and to a large extent) is the lenses though isn't it?

I liked this question:

Panel - I've a marketing question, after I've finished buying what I need, compared to other companies, Leica seem to do very little to tempt me to part with more money.

This is an excellent point and it must be a great pain to Leica. Of course, the superb quality and longevity of their cameras is exactly why most of us buy them anyway. I do not think that fripperies are the answer to this......

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), October 04, 2000.

I think all the opinions expressed here agree in general that Leica is not headed in the right direction.... My feelings are that we should look at the "pro" Leica models,the M and R systems individually. The M-System is now basically 3 different models of tampered design.The original M3 stands head and shoulders above the M2/4/6 design which was at first a less expensive alternative.The wide use of wide-angle lenses,the 35 and 28 by photographers hastened this idea.A lot of photographers now come with SLR experience and the use of many lenses and accessories to enhance their photographic skill and needs. Whether all this is really required is a moot point.Look at the sales figures of Canon and Nikon.Perhaps the Leica M is only good for a few lenses.The many frames present in the viewfinder is not an assett.True one can get used to it,but why ? A SLR never requires extra viewfinders.(dont mention exceptions)The modern photographer wants more lenses and features.Leica is built to a different standard.With all its faults it will OUTLAST any professional 35mm camera out there.That is a problem.The SWiss watch industry had same dilema.If it doesnt wear out you will not buy again.Markets are not always expanding.See sales of SLR worldwide.Pentax had similar problem with Spotmatic/K1000 model.It works forever.The lenses may not be as special as Leica but by golly they NEVER flare.I use Pentax and Nikon professionally in addition to Leica.So once youve bought your M-model and a few lenses you are done, financially and equipment wise.A cheaper Leica may solve the problem.It would need to be replaced.Newer models would be offered a la Canon.I doubt Leica could find sufficient purchasers.... The R-System.What is there to say?The golden moment was a copy of the Nikon-F.The camera that basically destroyed The German Photograhic industry.The Leicaflex model 1 was a joke.It was compouded by different Minoltas reworked.The R8 is descibed elsewhere as "the Hunchback of Solms". Continuing to "push" a camera that is not a winner is sad.Cut the loss.It endangers the whole company. My opinion is a new reflex system built with one of the other big companies....not so easy....Zeiss could only get Yashica to help because they were almost finished.The Japanese govt and banks made it happen. I have a M3 and a M2.I have 2 lenses.I will add Voiglander for my reqiurements.I cannot justify Leicas prices and stay in buissiness. I hope for all our sakes,real good thinking prevails at Solms.

-- jason gold (jason1155234@webtv.net), October 04, 2000.

There's plenty of room for improvement in the old gal, enough to cause consumers to reach for our checkbooks. Not one big change, like from the IIIF to the M3, but stepwise like from the "A" to the "C" to the IIIa, etc. I'll make a few suggestions. Replace the reliable old rubberized cloth shutter with a metal one ala Nikon SP. Increase the top speed of the shutter to 1/2000 RELIABLY as they once did going from 1/500 to 1/1000 in the 1938 G model. Take steps to change the squinty multi-frame viewfinder to more usable: Increase the exit pupil diameter and give it a high eyepoint. I'd really like to see the frame lines resume the shape they originally had in the M- 3, and be made truly parallax compensating like the ones in the Konica S-2, giving 100% coverage at all distances. While they are at it they should do away with two frame lines at a time, at least for the 50mm. This might require a different set of cams on the lens, which wouldn't hurt lens sales either. And finally, an electric shutter speed setter, attached on the accessory shoe like a Leica Meter, connected through the hotshoe to provice aperture priority auto exposure while continuing to use the mechanical shutter. There are LOTS of relatively minor changes which would keep it Viable for many years. Oh yeah, get rid of the slick plastic and put sticky old Vulcanite back on it. I'm not holding my breath!

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), October 04, 2000.

Well Bill since you brought it up... this is my wish list just incase Leica is looking in, (Ha! Ha!). Just remember... they sell chocolate and vanilla, so preferences are just that preferences. I prefer the M camera to stay pretty much as is. I have to be in control... it is just my nature, ( in my SLR life, I use Nikon FM2's and single focal length fast primes), so if Leica came out with a Leica / Hexar hybrid... I'd read about it, say "neat" and go out with my "M" and do photography. The things that the Leica M doesn't have is what endears it to me... If you can close you eyes, grip your camera and operate every control, then that is a camera that you can master in a very short time. I'm not a fan of the push button, 3 functions for every switch, don't be caught without a battery, "wonderplastic". I know that is what sells, but that is why I use Leicas... Up to this point from 1954, no obsolesce.

I think Cosina should be a wake up call for Leica. I'd love to use the 75mm frame in my M6 without the volume and price of the Summilux. That Cosina f2.5 Color-Heliar, if offered as a true M mount Leica lens would be a great lens. It would be in keeping with the Barnack thought process for a miniature camera system. I'd love to have a 35 and 75mm two lens travel kit that is actually smaller than an SLR. Most of the other mid-range lenses are offered in more than one f-stop range, (four for the fifty), so I think a low end 75mm will sell. I'm sure others want more... but this would have me pulling out my credit card faster than anything else I can think of. I'm resisting out of some sort of false snobbery, but I might just have to get that Voightlander. I'd rather buy one from Germany though... any chance of that? Or are we going to be offered another virtually useless 135mm version?

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 04, 2000.

No Sal. The real problem is that for every hundred people who love the M, there may be one who loves the R8. Otherwise the R8 would be selling in significant numbers. IMHO the R system is dead and nithing that Leica can AFFORD to do will save it.

-- jay goldman (goldman@math.umn.edu), October 04, 2000.

Al

Why buy one from Germany? They are made in Japan...

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), October 04, 2000.

Bill

Auto exposure through the hotshoe - that is weird! I think Leica would be laughed at if they produced such a Rube Goldberg solution - and what about when you want to use the hotshoe and auto exposure? Also why favor the 50mm, every second user would surely pick the 35mm as the stand alone frame (as they have done for the 0.58)?

I do like the idea of the frames appearing singly though - that is much more elegant. Maybe they should indeed redesign the cams....

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), October 04, 2000.

So much has been said on this thread there is really nothing for me to add, except to say, I am very happy with Leica M's just the way they are. If they did a major redesign (upgrade??) it would no longer be the M camera that I love. My newest M (I have 4 of them) is 40 years old and I use them everyday and sure they have some faults but I love the straight forward simplicity, something I know I can count on. I hope you all don't think I am some old retro who can't adapt to modern stuff, not true, for my SLR's I have several late model cameras and yes I do use the automatic features. But, for an allround camera I do not think there is any better than the Leica M of any vintage.

Steve

-- Steve LeHuray (icommag@toad.net), October 04, 2000.

Not Auto-exposure through the hotshoe, but a connection from the internal meter to the Leicameter through the hotshoe (replacing the CdS cell now in the meter and giving TTL light reading). You press the shutter release button (or the botton on the side of the meter) and the electric motor in the Leicameter turns the shutter speed wheel, just like one does now manually with your finger. Vivitar had a similar system in one of their SLRs 20 years ago which worked beautifully. This way you keep the Leica mechanical shutter but add aperture priority auto exposure. Basically it's replacing the meter movement on the Leicameter with an electric motor to drive the shutter speed dial. I'll bet DAG could retrofit it to every Leica since the M-3 for a few hundred bucks.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), October 04, 2000.

Wow! This has been an eye-opening venture. I have recently purchased my "dream" system: M6/35/50/90 lenses and am VERY happy with the quality. Having moved from Hasselblad to more 35 mm usage (Nikon F5) I now have the perfect travel and street system. I purchased my system for its reliablility, but after reading the above, it seems that Leica technology is stationary and the company is adopting a near-sighted attitude toward development.I didn't buy my system as a "collectable" consideration, I made my purchase for the "quality" marque for which Leica is known. LEICA, PLEASE LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS...

-- Don M (maldos@home.com), October 04, 2000.

Robin,

I said Germany in a sort of way indicating that I'd hold off from buying the Japanese Cosina, if I could believe that Leica would make a true M series lens with the same specs. I want the focal length and physical size... right now I have no choice. This is just the item on my wish list.

More than likely, it will come from Japan.... Sigh.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 04, 2000.

Electric motor powered Leicameter AE, no good M since the M3, write off all the recent R developments, people happy with their cameras thinking the company got it wrong.......

May I propose a new rule, Do not take drugs then post!

Take it easy on that cheer people!! :-)

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), October 04, 2000.

My top requests:

1. Quieter shutter (yes, that's right, as quiet as a Rollei TLR leaf shutter). 2. Higher Sync Speed. 3. Bigger exit pupil on the viewfinder, bigger image, brighter image like a brightline finder (will need redesign). 4. I don't need back loading, but find a way to hinge the baseplate. 5. Longer base rangefinder (yeah, why not, the Contax II had it in 1936?) 6. Reintroduce the CLE with a spot meter and 35, 50, 90 framelines.

They can implement 4 in a jiffy.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), October 04, 2000.

John Collier,

I believe that people should be able to freely express their feelings, especially after spending the money on the product without being accused, even in a joking way of being on drugs. Nothing is perfect, not even Leica. I would venture to guess that nobody that has expressed dissatisfaction would give up their cameras. They are just using this forum as a sounding board to state what they would like to see. Of course there is not the slightest chance that we would see 5% of what is being wished for over the many posts, but after all of the accolades for this site being one of the most civil, why the jab?

These fine folks are simply expressing themselves, many very articulately, some less so, but the feeling that we can let our thoughts out without recourse is threatened with your overt drug reference. As long as there is not a direct attack on a specific individual, totally unrelated to cameras or photography, then there should be a feeling that we should not have to stifle ourselves.

Please read or don't read post that you want or don't want to read, but let the people speak. We all have a built in BS detector, and can decide for ourselves what is a valid point. Here is a hint: If the people take the time to express a point, IT IS VALID!

-- freedom of speech (xxxx@xxx.com), October 04, 2000.

I think Freedom makes a valid point and I would (should) be the first person to put a halt to any sort of invalidation of such wonderful, free thinking here. Believe me, I think I enjoy this site more than anyone, and this thread has been great! But... I don't think John meant any harm or meant to stifle free thought here. He did use a smiley face icon which usually means "meant in fun."

Isn't it amazingly easy to misunderstand or take too seriously informally written communications (and email is the least formal) because of the lack of facial and verbal clues. The best thing to do is err on the politically correct side and avoid using phrases/terminolgy that needs facial and verbal feedback to be taken correctly.

Thank you BOTH for posting...

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), October 05, 2000.

I agree with Tony that John meant no malice with his drug joke. It was clearly meant as a joke and even labelled as such with a :-). Like Tony has said, this forum has been extremely civil (probably a common trait among Leica users!! :-) [yes, all you non-Leica users, it's a joke and it's labelled as such; chill out!!!]) and I would like it maintained that way. I appreciate John posting the excellent interview and enjoy reading the responses.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), October 05, 2000.

"I think all the opinions expressed here agree in general that Leica is not headed in the right direction...."

This one isn't a joke about drugs. It's a generalization intended to impose a particular point of view on the forum as a whole.

It seems to me that Leica is making a lot of good decisions based on the constraints that they operate under: a small company with a limited R&D budget. Leica originally established itself my being on the leading edge, not by following the pack. Who cares about electronic shutters and automatic exposure? The Japanese cameras already do that. If Leica is going to get back out in front, it won't be by imitating the Japanese. It will be in digital, or some other leading edge technology.

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), October 05, 2000.

I am a Japanese Leica user from Tokyo, so you can call me a traiter :- ) I just would like to say two things here:

1)IMHO, this day and age where the product is made hardly should matter IF indeed what we are looking for is the quantum results of what the product brings eg performance, technology, cost advantage... On the other hand, I would buy a "true" Leica lens etc. made in Solms/Wetzlar, Germany for their sentimental /snobbery/exclusivity values. In performance, Leica M is clearly no longer the leader. It is, however, still a Leica to me and I am quite happy with knowing this when I use my M.

2)My late grandfather once told me, "The best product is not always made by the best company, and the best company does not necessarily produce the best product, but most profitable company always knows what the customer WILL want BEFORE they do." He was a successful industrialist and a life-long Leica lover. Cheers

-- Kazumasa Fukuda (kaz@koyosha.com), October 05, 2000.

Kazumasa,

Hello... I lived in Japan for many years. I always enjoyed my "celebrity status" when I wore a Leica around my neck in a camera store. I always made sure it was empty so everyone could "play" with it.

You are correct in my opinion. A Casio watch is both cheaper and more reliable than a Rolex... one is simply used the other lusted after. I think the same can points can be made about camera equipment. We can dismiss the "plastic marvels", but for all of the perceived weakness... they can deliver the pictures. I have never felt my heart race reading about them in a magazine though. In all honesty, I can say that a well produced brochure, or expertly printed book featuring Leica cameras and lenses, can really start my motor... I get excited just thinking about the product. It is my "Rolex"!

As a company, you can do all of the marketing research in the world... but when you generate excitement just by being there, then half the battle is won. This is the only reason that I don't have that 75mm lens that I mentioned up in the thread... there is one there waiting for me (Cosina)... very inexpensive... very good optical quality... but at the end of the day... it isn't a Leica!

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 05, 2000.

For Leica R lenses should be very easy to convert to Nikon ais mount or Canon eos mount (no adapter). I do not the patent issue. Their(Leica) sales of SLR lenses will be increased a lot by that.

-- Kenny Chiu (amchiu@worldnet.att.net), October 05, 2000.

Joe: Too late for Leica not to follow the Japanese and way too late to lead the world into digital. Although you wouldn't think so reading the interview. Maybe something's lost in the translation again.

Why is auto exposure in a Leica considered bad form, but a digital back on an M6 is OK? It seems to me that any digitizing at all contradicts what Leica is all about; classic, simple, durable.

I always hear the argument that Leica is better because they focus on optics and build quality. Try that in the digital world where products are outdated before they are released to market. How would the digital equivalent of the R8 ever pay for itself? It couldn't.

Going digital would require Leica's entire operation to change from a thoughtful, slow to change organization to one where both people and products are changed every six months. Think about it; it takes Leica 10 years to update cameras and glass, sometimes longer. How will this company ever keep up with the rest of the world. They've made their name but doing the opposite.

Digitizing would remove any advantages of Leica glass, reduce the low light capability and take all the fun out of using different emulsions.

I think that if the Solms people spend more than 10% of their R&D resources on digitial, Leica as we know it will in fact be gone within 5 years. Probably absorbed by one of the Japanese camera makers. Leica is alive simply because they make a unique and beautiful and crafted product, and have so far been able to charge premium prices.

In the digital world there will be no arguments over what glass is better than the other. Microchips will rule the day. Tests will be able to prove conclusively which lens resolves better or is sharper (on a digital camera). No longer will Leica be able to charge a premium for their products when the quality is measurable. The mystique will be gone.

-- Tim Kamke (openmri@execpc.com), October 05, 2000.

I tend to agree with Tim. Leica need to be very careful with digital as they are taking on the big boys, not just in cameras but electronics too (Sony etc.) Would you risk that? I notice that Kodak (who is number 2 in digital cameras in the US after Sony) is losing pots of money in its digital obsession whereas its traditional film and imaging is the high margin breadwinner. These losses have not impressed Wall Street. Fuji has a similar problem. Electronics is about the most cut-throat business there is (but presumably the stakes are high). I think Leica wants to be digitally aware, but not a fundamentally digital company.

As an answer to Mani, I doubt any focal plane shutter can be as quiet as a leaf shutter (as in the Rolleis) as an fc shutter is much larger than a leaf shutter which is also, in the case of most MF and 35mm leaf shutter cameras, sandwiched inside a lens which is pretty good soundproofing in itself.

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), October 06, 2000.

Wow, what an interesting interview (it's sorta like letting a bunch of Star Wars fanatics pick the brains of George Lucas.)

And now with this thread we engage in an exegesis of it to fully grasp what's in store for the future.

I had the sense that the company does feel very much constrained, from high labor and capital costs, a deeply held heritage and brand image, a very small market whom they don't want to abuse in any way (like changing lens mounts a la Canon), and a comparatively infinitesimal marketing budget.

I was particularly interested that they articulated a desire to go for a younger market:

The new market is for modern people wishing to leave auto / digital technologies and lose their phones and lap tops etc. They want to do something real, not virtual at the weekend, there is a lot of interest in the O Series shown by young people.

This is an incredibly thoughtful vision for their new market. But one that's not very articulated in their marketing (such as I've seen in photog. magazines, or their TV spots [found on their website]). New markets must necessarily be competitive in price- it's a bit contradictory if not: only seasoned Leica users can really appreciate the value of the product and be willing to shell out the bucks. Newbies, like yours truly, aren't going to even bother trying until they have a lot of extra money to spend. So until then, the Cosina/ Voigt., or a Spotmatic or an old Rollei TLR is how I might "leave auto / digital, cell phones and laptops..." I'm sure there are many pot'l Leica-philes who'd like to go "retro" without going broke, great glass notwithstanding.

I suppose when the M series began way back when, the context of its emergence included big cameras, big film, craftsmanship, and a brand brand new market of handheld cameras and 35mm film. As Kazumasa's grandfather remarked, in this market, Leica may have wonderfully anticipated its customers' desires. Nowadays, as someone else posted above, the market is full of generations of people intimately acquainted with whizbang SLRs and P&S in a throwaway and product- upgrade society. How will Leica fare now?

PS: Didn't Rollei have to make a similar transition?

-- Tse-Sung Wu (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 07, 2000.

Couple last thoughts:

The co. does appear to be under-resourced if it doesn't demonstrate that it plans to survey its customers. They said they couldn't monitor LUG posts for lack of resources: how many people on LUG or here need to spend a whole day each day getting a sense of a general sentiment? And failing that, what are they doing to understand their market?

Secondly, perhaps Leica's a victim of its own success. When people were saying the Hexar had Leica-like glass, who wouldn't jump at the chance to buy one? Now, it has a been an entry to Leica, they say, but wouldn't they have preferred to get new customers in from the ground floor?

-- Tse-Sung Wu (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 07, 2000.

I do not think that this forum or the LUG represent a typical Leica user that Leica should try to cater to. There seems to be four or so different types of Leica users.

First is a photographer, a professional or very serious amateur, who is out using the cameras. They buy cameras as tools; use, repair and replace them as needed. It is a tool that they use because it works and offers something not available elsewhere.

Second would be the rank amateur who buys a Leica because it is the best that they can afford and they use it for the usual family snaps, pictures of sunsets and what not. For them the Leica is a status symbol, a dream not a reality.

Third is the enthusiast, a confused blurr of lover and groupie. Serious about their Leicas but would rather sit and discuss the relative merits of ______ vs ______ (there are too many potential examples in the leica world), than actually photograph. Not to say they are not photographers, just that they are more passionate about their equipment than their results.

Finally the collector, for whom equipment is all and would really be happiest if people would kindly stop running film though Leicas as it lowers the equipment's value and usefulness.

On both this list and the LUG there are a few of the first type, very few (I certainly am not one) and the rest are made up of varying proportions of all three groups.

I bought a BEOON copy stand, it is a handy way of expanding the usefulness of my M outfit, but, there are many cheaper and more practical solutions out there. I photograph with it and would be delighted if Leica would bring out a similar new product. Leica would be completely insane to do so.

Enthusiasts are also disproportionately vocal in the Leica world and it would be suicide for the company to try and accommodate the enthusiast's wishes. It is a market for them but a very expensive one to service.

I work in the car restoration business and the enthusiast is the bane of our existence. They always want to talk, poke around ongoing projects, buy only when it is dirt cheap and sell only for a premium. It is apart of our business to deal with them but, when you account for time, we lose money on EVERY transaction.

Leica knows its market very well, I had hoped that by posting the above interview, people would realize that it is a very complex and volitile market. Leica's competition is sometimes made up of other company's money losing marque products or the personal interests of the CEO. Leica has to move carefully and take advantage of its strongest markets, the serious user, the rich and the collector. It has limited resources and, I think, is now using them wisely.

Not too cheerfully yours :-)

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), October 07, 2000.

John Collier, I don't know if you're referring to my post, but here are some thoughts on yours. I agree that LUG and people at this forum don't represent typical users. (Indeed, what segment of society does any internet community represent other than itself?)

My point was that it was, to me, not clear that Leica was actively seeking out to understand their market better, or new ones they wish to enter, at least based on the interesting interview you posted. Maybe they are- maybe they're conducting focus group studies, interviewing the likes of Salgado, as well as the average person about to plop down $500 for an outift at Ritz about what they want, and what it would take for them to part with 4-5x that amount for a similar set-up. Maybe they just don't have the resources to respond to what they learn. It is, for instance, cryptic to me that they view the O-series as a way to learn more about the retro market. I mean, a production run of 4000, with a MSRP of $2500, for what you're getting? Enthusiasts can speculate on that for a while...

I also agree that it's a complex and volatile market, not one to be taken for granted. But in a sense, haven't they, after all these years, while other companies have gone light years ahead of them in features, convenience, and value? The line between what the market wants, and the customer needs that a big marketing budget can manufacture, is admittedly fuzzy. If C&N didn't market AF and AE so heavily (in addition to investing in R&D), if other competitors hadn't had a simpler way to load film, perhaps we all would have nothing but Leica-like features on our cameras. (My guess is, probably not.)

True, this forum is populated by enthusiasts. But I have to admit, sometimes reading their posts is like hearing about the emperor's new clothes. "Sure film loading's hard, but you get used to it!" "Sure, you can't see the 28mm frameline if you wear specs, it's but it's really not an SLR, and the add-on finder works really well." "Sure, flash syn is slower than any SLR currently on the market, and it can't do what a $150 P&S does in terms of flash, but the camera's not about using the flash..." "Want a self-timer, what are you, wasting your Leica on vacation snapshots? Besides, there's a nice timer you can wind up and screw into the shutter release..."

The fact that people tout the discontinued M3 as being superior to the current M6 underscores this point. What other companies, that wish to remain viable in their markets, require their customers to buy their old, discontinued products because what they're currently offering doesn't offer as much value?

In a Hegelian sense (ya' gotta invoke Hegel if you're talking about Leica), hopefully Cosina/Voigt. (and others?) is the threat to Leica that will ultimately save it.

Oh, and cheer up! At worst, Leica as we know it may be gone some time in the future, but its cameras will outlive most of us, as well as its mystique.

-- Tse-Sung Wu (tsesung@yahoo.com), October 07, 2000.

As Mark Twain said: "The rumors of my death are greatly exagerated". Rephrased for the Leica crowd, most of whom, like me, are in a love/hate relationship with the Leica company: "the anticipated death of Leica is greatly exagerated". Leica is right where it wants to be, making the best lenses in the world, both rangefinder and reflex lenses. I know this, and buy them, and photograph knowing that the limitation in the photographic chain is me and not the equipment. It is at the top end, and everyone knows this, even, apparently, the Japanese. Just handle a Leica, and examine the lens, especially the mount. Nothing like it anywhere else. The Japanese could do as well, but they know the market is small, and the big bucks are not there. Leica has the top end market captured, and will survive if they don't make a financial blunder. Another factor is that the Leica spokesman is not going to expose too much. I was surprised that he was as forthright as he was.

If Leica continues to make the best optics, and quality bodies that are functional, beautiful, nice to place on a stand and admire, and cuddlesome, they will survive, and do well. It was expressed above, that the Leica camera is something that the less than wealthy can own, and still own the best.

I desire a smaller R8, but with the same features and ergonomics. I'm even considering a R8, which is a wonderful camera with some outstanding features, especially the viewfinder and the flash metering. Just what a scientist - who doesn't need fast acting, autofocus, hard to function cameras - desires. I find the Leica reflex cameras perfect for my kind of photography.

I think we are too hard on Leica. We should love them more than hate them.

I think Leica is going in the right direction - like they have for many years. And they realize that digital is the wave of the future.

Eilert Anders

-- Eilert Anders (eilert@dav.com), October 12, 2000.

Hi,

I would like to make a couple of points:

1) The future of photography is digital (and I am all for it - I can sit at my computer and have complete control over the whole process - no darkroom, no chemicals).

2) I love my Leicas (a 1930's 1C and an M6, plus a compact minizoom). What I would like to see is a digital Leica M6E (taking Compactflash memory cards) so I could use my Leica lenses for their superb quality. This would give complete automatic/manual exposure control. I wouldn't be too concerned about autofocus.

Iain Bryson

-- Iain Bryson (i.bryson@compserv.gla.ac.uk), November 01, 2000.

Hi,

To own a Leica camera, is to hold something of deeper value than a commercial product manufactured for a specific market segment.

I have my Nikons, Canons, digitals, etc. But they do not evoke in me the feeling of history and a philosophy which has tried to come as near to the highest optical and mechanical standards as possible.

So while I save up my money to be able to buy a real Summicron ASPH or a Summilux ASPH, I can play with the more affordable Cosina/Voigtlaender lenses.

I agree with Leica that these more affordable lenses have increased the market for them too.

cheers

Gautam

-- Gautam Tendulkar (gautamt@optushome.com.au), November 11, 2000.

I'd like to place a request (to those out there with the necessary influence) for the development of a REMOVABLE digital "back" for the LEICA M6. I really don't care WHO makes the thing; I simply NEED it! (Ideally, with a large 35mm frame-size chip!)

Like many fellow "purists", I work exclusively with these wonderful, wonderful cameras. And, as an active newspaper/magazine photographer, the thought of, at some point, having to start using a digital reflex camera (a NIKON D1, for example) just makes me ill...

It would seem to me that a "filmless" M6 has LOADS of room to accommodate the necessary (REMOVABLE) componentry. Just, please, don't mess with anything in the camera itself... THANKS.

-- Taras Kovaliv (tarask@hotmail.com), February 10, 2001.

I have recently purchased a new R8. Did not buy from a authorized Leica shop, but gave me a three year warranty and saved me $500.00. The camera is comfortably big and the view finder has a nice brightness. My wife will never figure out how to use it on her own. We will learn together. This is my first 35mm Leica. I know its only a camera, but its a Leica. What counts is what I do with it. Only time will tell. Thanks to the Leica engineering this R8 is ours.

-- Thomas Craig Bajt (thomas.b1@home.com), March 20, 2001.

It is confusing to read the opinions of Leica. Most of the confusing points have already been covered in this site. I only want to contribute a couple of observations: I think most Leica users are not profesionals. I mean most of us donīt make a living out of our Leicas. It must be true that many profesionals use Leicas but I still think that far less profesionals buy Leicas than plain (maybe not that plain, agreed. . .)users do. Does anybody have any numbers on this? Of course, Leica should. But if they don't even monitor the LUG site ... Now: what do we, the more numerous Leica buyers, look for? Of course I can tell only by myself but feel reasonably sure that many Leica users will share my point of view, that's why I'm writing this. Here is my wish list: a camera that can use the best lenses available today but will not ever leave me with unusable lenses after a sudden design change, the way Canon did; a camera that lasts forever but never become obsolete; a camera that makes whatever I want even if learning how to do it the right way were not too easy and proper accesories were required (and available); a camera whose battery will never get out of market (i.e with no battery at all); a camera that is always possible to be repaired (which most possibly means an all mechanical camera); a rugged camera, of course; an easy to handle small camera; a very beautiful camera, of course. And, YES, it possibly means a Leica M3. Plus a metal shutter, perhaps. May be that's why I own two of them. Old ones though since I couldn't afford a new one neither am I interested in the present M6 generation. And I'm even fortunate enough as for owning reflex and close focusing accesories for real close up photography. But the point is that in my lifetime I will continue expending still more money buying lost caps, new leather cases, wider lenses (the widest I own is a 35 mm), a f2.8 90 mm besides the f4 I already own, polarizer filters, other filters for B&W usage, a more clever bag than the ones currently available in the market which look far more efficient at atracting thieves than at holding my equipment and making it readily available; a precise, small, one-hand-usable light meter; a Focomat type enlarger; a detachable tripod head built in such a way as to center balance the camera weight ... and God knows what and how many other inteligent practical accesories Leica could make available and get a profit from. I'm sure many profesionals have different needs and must rely on faster cameras with autofocus, SLR convenience, more powerful zoom lenses and other resources which make their job easier and, sometimes, just plainly possible. But how many of them can afford Leicas? I feel sure Leica cannot rely upon them to continue alive but on us plain users who earn our money making different things than what we enjoy the most. And please consider that I already owned electronic automagic Nikons and Canons with big extraordinary zoom lenses only to go back to a mechanical FM2, a Leica R4 AND my most loved M3s which are the ones I really use most of the time and feel sure I'll keep for the rest of my life. In summary: what ever made it necessary to evolve the M3 to the present M6 which now is almost as good as the M3 was, but so many years later? Of course, the easy answer is "money was it". My own conclusion is that a wrong marketing did. Though the invaluable help the Leica mithology and the satisfied customers' opinions contribute. And please keep in mind that my mother language is Spanish and my English is not the good I'd like it to be...

-- Ivan Barrientos (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), April 30, 2001.

Here is my 2 cents worth. It might differ considerably to the views expressed before. Let's start to say that I consider photography a hobby, it's not my profession and never will be. Furthermore I'm only "into" photography for about 2 years. I use a simple and (compared to Leica equipment) cheap but perfectly usable AF SLR outfit. Of course it's fully automatic but as my experience grows, I use it manually more often or compensate the things it wants to do. So often in fact that I have bee considering purchasing a Voigtlander Bessa R outfit. A simple rangefinder with TTL metering, sharp prime lenses and fully mechanical operation. Great to expand my photographic skills and to a limited extent my possibilities, especially street shooting. Only problem to me is the price, although it's dirt cheap compared to a M6 outfit. I don't want to go into the rangefinder/SLR or electronic/mechanical debate, to me its just to limited for the price. Some may question my sanity or suggest I use drugs ;-) but although I think a Bessa outfit may be justifiable from a specialist point of view, a Leica outfit is not, has not been for more than 20 years and will never be again. Ok, it's great for candid shots, the optics are amazing and it will last forever. But would you drive a '60 Volkswagen today, even if it was made to the highest possible standards? I hope Leica survives and prospers but I think passionate users (I don't even want to think about the braggers and the people who buy it only for their image) are a bit mad. Don't be insulted, to me it is a harmless and amusing kind of insanity, albeit a costly one ;-) The dear friend who got me interested in photography suffers from it too. We never waste a moment to belittle each other's equipment in an easygoing, friendly way... He laughs at my plastic SLR, with its bulky zoom lens with all the pincushion, vignetting, barrel distortion and lack of speed associated with it. I laugh at his M4, with no meter, ridiculous flash sync and outrageously expensive lenses. We will never agree, but isn't that what makes life interesting? We both have progressed to a level where we can make the pictures we want, get the results we want with our equipment. Isn't that what photography is all about?

Regards,

Ronald Hogenboom

-- Ronald Hogenboom (r.hogenboom@chello.nl), July 17, 2001.

I am a serious amatuer art photographer. I have photographying for 40 years. For a period of 7 years I owned a Leicaflex SL and SL2 with a bevy of lenses. I wanted to upgrade to the new Leica R bodies to get auto exposure but was very disappointed with them including the R6 which I find chinsy. In fact the camera store let me borrow an R6 body as part of a Leica program and it jammed within the first few exposure frames. I switched to the Canon EOS1 mainly because of the 100% viewfinder to film frame match and the ability to use long lenses without view cutoff. I do not like the Canon optics or auto film advance and I mostly use the lenses with autofocus turned off. Also, the camera is noisy. And also, it is made of plastic. These are the important features I am looking for: -100% viewfinder to film representation. If Leica insists on the 97% for slide film then I suggest they make an alternate focusing screen with a mask and leave it up to the user what they prefer.-low vibration (i.e., well damped mirror with prerelease). -quit operation -durable mechanism -durable outer shell (a camera such as this should have a titanium outer shell) -accurate meter with spot, semi spot and center weighted measuring -accurate shutter mechanism -light weight -easy to use controls -bright contrasty viewfinder Things that are not important are: -auto film transport (not worth the weight or noise to me) -auto focus (again not worth the weight, noise or compromise to the optics). For me there only 2 main faults with the R8. 1) The lack of 100% viewfinder to film frame matching (it is 97x96% I believe). 2) The lack of a titanium outer covering. Sincerely, Robert DeBellis

-- Robert B. DeBellis (bob_debellis@fpl.com), August 23, 2001.

I really do enjoy using the Leica R system and yes I know that people are biased towards the M system but the single reflex camera for me delivers the ability to use higher shutter speeds on low speed film in low light settings. And I don't care about the weight of the Leicaflex or the R3 or the beautifully designed R8 which I want! I think that it's a blessing that we can shoot SLR photos of highest quality which Canon (grrr) and Nikon (clap clap) and Minolta (enjoy their stuff too) need to catch up.

I would definitely like to see Leica and Nikon band up for interchangeable mounts. And by the way, Leica needs an autofocus system too. I really think that it would break their image and change things up but it's a changing world when a market share of camera users want the ease of AF sometimes for moments which can't be caught predictably using MF.

-- Alfie Wang (albert.wang@ibx.com), October 09, 2001.