I am a simple amateur phtographer who groups the family together for the yearly Christmas picture with one comming up soon. I use a Elan IIE with a 380ex and a 28-105. Once everyone gets framed, the camera is ~20-30ft from the front row of kids, with the adults being in the 3rd row. In recent years I would shoot in green mode with results I would not write home about. Could anyone help me with my technique so I can proudly hand out the 8x10s?

-- ron seese (bucket@seese.net), October 29, 2000

Answers

I read some of the responses, and for the most part they are good. I'll get more to the point though. You have two problems. You need depth of field that is large enough to cover the group, and you need enough light to expose them at 20-30 feet away. You won't get both with 100 speed film and a 380EX, so forget the 100 speed film. Buy some Kodak Portra 400, or the Fugi equivalent if you like Fuji. Modern 400 speed films can easily be enlarged to 8X10, and unless you are giving them to hyper-critcal professional photographers, no one will mind the relatively small amount of grain that will show from a well exposed negative.

Now on to getting that negative well exposed. Use Manual mode. I like Program mode, and frequently use AV and TV as well, but the green mode, and other PIC modes have no business on a camera of this level. So why use manual, and not one of the other creative modes? Simplicity, at least in this case. You need an aperture of f8 for depth of field, and AV mode will revert to slow sync and give a long shutter speed. TV mode will open the aperture as far as it needs to or can when you set the shutter speed you want. P mode will set the shutter at 1/60, and open the aperture like TV will.

Take control. Switch to M, set the shutter at 1/60 so you will get some ambient light, and set the aperture to f8. With a 50mm lens and 400 speed film, the 380EX has a range of about 25 feet. You only have about 19 feet of range with a 28mm lens due to the flash zooming to cover the lens angle. That is pushing it a bit with either lens, so take 3 or 4 shots at that setting, then dial in 1/2 stop of FLASH Exposure Compensation to force the flash to do all it can, and take 3 or 4 more. This will also help ensure that the people in the back are exposed as well. After you have done that, change the aperture to f5.6 and repeat the above procedure, just in case there wasn't enough light at f8. Of course, this is a starting point, and you may want to experiment a little ahead of time if you can.

An alternative would be to use you 283's with optical slaves attached, and fire them with the camera's built in flash. You can't use the 380EX because you can't disable the preflash. I'd still suggest 400 speed film, and if you are using the camera at f8, set the flashes for f11, or f16.

So much for getting to the point, but I think I made it. It takes a lot of depth of field to do what you want, which in turn takes a lot of light, or fast film. Keep in mind that although you have less flash range with the 28-105 @ 28mm, you will be able to get close enough to make up the difference, and you will have more depth of field as well. Try both lenses if everyone is patient.

-- Brad Hutcheson (bhutcheson@iname.com), October 31, 2000.

By the way, if you have the money, the Canon 550EX is would be a good investment. It has a range of about 24 feet with a 28mm lens @ f8, and about 34 feet with a 50mm @ f8. You can also switch off E-TTL and use it with your Vivitars hooked up to optical slaves.

-- Brad Hutcheson (bhutcheson@iname.com), October 31, 2000.

I don't want to insult anyone, since doing so is would be breaking one of my own rules for this site, but I have to point something out. I'm not a fan of fast films. I still mourn the loss of Royal Gold 25, but the suggestion of 100 speed film and medium format ignores the fundamental problem here. Too many people have ignored the capability of the equipment in question. Ron has listed the equipment he has, and it isn't capable of doing what he needs with 100 speed film. I'm not even sure the 550EX can do it with 100 speed film. Ignoring the equipment in question is useless, and the result will be worse than the compromise of using 400 speed film.

I'm looking at an 8X10 print from EktaPress 400. There is some loss of fine detail, but the 75-300IS I shot the picture with doesn't show any more detail with 100 speed film. Using 400 speed film will double the flash range, which is what is needed here. Overexposing the film slightly will minimize grain. Having a commercial prolab do the printing will get the most out of the negative. Understand that this is a Christmas snapshot. Using 400 speed film will be acceptable to those who will care more about the memory than the fact that they can't see each individual eyelash. Focus and exposure are more important here. By the way, printing on glossy paper will probably help to preserve as much detail as possible.

-- Brad Hutcheson (bhutcheson@iname.com), November 01, 2000.

The obvious answer is, "Now you know why wedding photographers use medium format." But that's about as useful as directions that begin, "If I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." So I sha'n't say anything of the kind.

Instead, I'll offer two thoughts. The first, Ron, is that you are stretching amateur 35mm about as far as it will go. The old rule of thumb is that, if you are using a prime lens, a tripod and a slow film, you can enlarge your negatives 8x. If you want to go past that, the biggest initial improvement comes from the tripod, the biggest overall effect comes from the film; good lenses come third but, if the first two factors are right, they do make a difference.

So, stability. You're using a tripod and a cable release, right? Try to borrow a bigger tripod: something like a Gitzo 3-series, say. Does the Elan have mirror lockup? If it, does use it: MLU matters only at the extreme, but you're at the extreme.

Then, film. The colour film with the highest resolution is probably still Fuji Velvia, which will resolve about 80 lp/mm on an ordinary-contrast picture. The negative films used for weddings, such as Kodak Portra 160 or Fuji NPS, are fine for medium format 8x10s, but Velvia is probably a better choice if you're enlarging 35mm.

Then, lenses. As a completely impartial Nikon user, I can assure you that Canon's lenses are among the best that there are. Canon's prime (single focal length) lenses have to make fewer compromises than their zooms so, if you could observe which focal length you actually use and find a Canon prime of that length, then you can make the very best of the stability and film resolution. Setting the lens to f/8, checking the depth of field carefully, and using aperture priority is also a good idea. If you can get everybody somewhere that there is enough ambient light (outdoors if you don't live in Alaska) so that the 380EX has to provide only fill-in, that should help too.

The second thought is to consider a montage instead of a formal group shot. Wander around for half-an-hour taking lots of pictures -- enough that people begin to stop freezing as you approach -- get the processor to make you a PhotoCD, and cut and paste a memory of the event onto a single large sheet. (You can even do this with genuine cut and paste if you have no suitable computer, photocopying the result.

Later,

Owl

-- John Owlett (owl@postmaster.co.uk), October 30, 2000.

The previous poster addressed issues like lens and film, which are important, but I suspect that the single most troublesome problem you are facing is the lighting. 20-30 feet is a very long way for an on- camera flash to reach, and if you are just sticking it on top of your camera the results are not usually going to be very attractive. You can do a couple of things:

1) don't use flash at all. That means you need enough natural lighting to make a pleasing image of everyone, which is generally going to happen in the late afternoon light or when it is overcast. You could try to put everyone in open shade, but it may be difficult to find a space large enough to fit them all. A large white surface will give you some extra light to open up the shadows - maybe try some really big pieces of foam core taped together. You can buy commercial versions but they are expensive if they are large enough to cover a big group. Reflectors are magical in their ability to improve the lighting, you can see what the effect is immediately, and you can jury-rig something for very little money. Even a big white wall can work very well.

2) put the light in a better location, and soften it. Single point flash is unattractive because the light is cold, and casts harsh shadows. Also, having the light source come right above your camera is not usually a good choice. The most standard place to put it is high and to the side (30-45 degree angle towards the subject). That's tricky with such a large group, but you could try getting a softbox and putting it as close as you can to them. You need a long remote cord or some kind of wireless trigger.

3) use more powerful or flexible lighting. This gets you into the whole issue of studio lights, and is probably too expensive and complicated for this single purpose.

Hope that helps ...

-- Oliver Sharp (osharp@greenspice.com), October 30, 2000.

Thank you both for the kind responses.

Our family meets on Christmas Eve, and by the time everyone shows up there is no more light. So Flash in front of the tree seems to be tradition. I like the random collection idea. I have been playing with phtoshop and this would be interesting.

As far as the equipment is concerned, I do have a 50mm prime which I think I could make work. I do use a tripod, but do have access to a sturdier one. I will purchase a professional quality film as you suggested and research the mirror lockup. I like being in the picture so the timer, or IR remote is ususally used.

And yes the flash is atop of the camera which I fear is not putting off enough light. I don't recall what f-stop it selects, but I fear I allowed the camera to choose and it was not stopped down. I only say this because the depth of field and sharpness was not there, with the 3 rows of people.

I do have a couple of 283 flash units and was wondering if I could remotely configure a poormans studio-light setup with slave type of triggers? I guess I would loose the camera/flashes ability to select exposure and would need to manually set it somehow. Maybe this is a good thing.

I have eyed used brown-line setups but have passed them by. Maybe I should invest in some lights. The thing I would fear is with all of the presents, kids and alcohol that something would fall over :-)

-- Ron Seese (bucket@seese.net), October 30, 2000.

I do this every year for Christmas too. We DO live in Alaska so outdoors IS out of the question. There's 50+ of us and my parents have a large living room we all croud into for the big bash. With all the chaos (lots of little kids and even more adults that act like them) I find the hardest part is getting them all into their places. I pose them by families (I have 6 siblings, all with kids & grand kids), some standing on chairs or couches, some standing in front of them, some more sitting in more chairs in front of them and finally, more sitting on the floor in front of them all.

I use a Canon Elan IIe, 28-135 USM IS (about as sharp as your 28- 105), set at 28mm & f:8. I shoot Fuji Reala (It's sharper & finer grained than either Portra 160 or (especially) NPS. It's probably the best film for group pictures as the grain and sharpness is as good as it gets in a film that still makes skin tones look nice. Velvia is admittedly sharper but the colors would be awful for all those faces. I use two Canon Speedlites (430EZ & 540EZ), set on light stands on both sides of the camera, about 2 feet to the side and above the camera. This gets rid of any shadows. You can forget more creative lighting in a group this size. No one will notice the lack of "butterfly lighting" or diffusers/reflectors on a large group. I set the lights on manual, use a flash meter & adjust their output manually.

The end results are very good. The 8X12's are very sharp and I did one 20X30 for my folks 50th wedding anniversary, and since you don't view a really large print too close, it looks great. Everybody is more than sharp enough to see the kids dumb expressions and everything.

I would advise using the Vivitars on stands as I do and, if you can't get access to a flash meter, set them on manual using guide numbers for calculations. Just keep in mind that the true guide number of a 283 is more like 100', not the 120' that they advertise. Two of them together equal about 150'. Good for about 20' at f:8, & nearly 30 at f:5.6. Their biggest problem is with light fall off with lenses wider than 35mm. You can try to point them out to the side a bit to get all the coverage, but the sides will still be underexposed by one stop. With (low contrast) Reala in your camera that shouldn't be a big problem for family pictures.

Have fun with it.

-- Jim Strutz (jimstrutz@juno.com), October 31, 2000.

As some of the previous posts have hinted, 35mm is barely adequate for large group shots.
Go with the tripod and more powerful flash by all means, but do not use faster film. Use 100 ISO at the fastest. 400 ISO is a complete disaster for fine detail, and fine detail is exactly what you need in this instance.

-- Pete Andrews (p.l.andrews@bham.ac.uk), November 01, 2000.

Thank you for all of the responses. I think I will do some testing with the equipment that I currently have, trying to master the flash in a manual mode. Since I will be shooting a few rolls between now and then I will try the differnet speeds with a mockup situation to test the results. I think I may invest in a more powerful flash (550ex?) since I do use the flash a lot. I think I need to understand how the camera controls the flash in the different modes and how this IR remote slave stuff works.

-- Ron Seese (bucket@seese.net), November 03, 2000.