I am really impressed with straw bale buildings, low cost, R-factor, etc. But can anyone tell me how feasible it is to build a straw-bale structure (barn or house) in the southeast? We live on the coast near Florida/Georgia border, and have an extremely high humidity rate.

References for purchasing straw would also be appreciated as the Farmer's Bulletin doesn't advertise (straw) much in our area.

I've spoken w/the Building Inspector and he was so impressed with reference materials that he approved for a barn. Unfortunately our finances won't be sufficient for another 1-2 years. So am planning, researching, planning, etc. (you get the picture).

Already been teased about our goats eating the barn, and the wolves blowing it down, so go for it, but give me some feedback PLEASE!

I'm new to CS Board -- have enjoyed CS Magazine for years, but must have missed the small print for the web site. I'm the one with the love for goats (want donkeys, ?maybe a mule, geese, ducks, you name it), and eagerly look forward to the magazine, but my husband and I scramble to see who gets it first! Thanks for your advice, Marsha

-- Marsha W. (CaprisMaa@aol.com), November 03, 2000

Answers

I don't know much about Straw Bale building but I may be willing to voulenteer some labor so I could gain some learning excperience.

Their is plenty of straw sold here in north central Florida, they use it as bedding on the horse farms. I am not sure of the price but would check on it if you want. Good Luck!!!

-- Mark (deadgoatman@webtv.net), November 03, 2000.

hi Marsha! Not to sure about straw bale but would'nt you be a little nervous about hurricanes? Also would you need all that insulation in Florida? Couple of thoughts. Please don't think I'm trying to kill your enthusiasm....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

I'd do some research; there are lots of sites with info on straw bale houses on the net. My biggest concern would be with the straw getting moldy in the damp climate, but I don't know if this is likely or not.

The hurricane concern can surely be dealt with, with some planning.

Believe it or not, Forida seems to have no insulation requirements in their building codes. My son just bought a new house near Tampa, and the house has single pane windows, R 11 in upstairs walls, and the walls downstairs have only a layer of aluminum foil for insulation. R value near zero. The rationale is that they don't need heat. But they are expecting to use air conditioning for ten or eleven months per year!

Insulation is even more important in hot climates than cold. You get relief from heating bills whenever the sun shines, but the converse is not true-no relief from the heat. J tells me that the weather right now occassionally gets DOWN to sixty or sixty five by morning. Yech.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), November 04, 2000.

Hmmm. The hurricane-proofing is a question. In the book that I dog- ear, 'The Straw Bale House', they have plans for a house shaped into a dome. I remember a program on one of the educational channels about some folks who built a dome-shaped home that resisted hurricanes. Conventional style straw bale homes in the plains states have stood for 150+ years, and tornados rip around there like it was Disneyland. I don't know if any have ever taken a direct hit to test their wind- worthiness.

From what I understand, when properly stucco'd over, there is nothing that gets into the straw to affect it (humidity, pests, etc.) The stucco will resist as well as any stucco in your area. My parents lived in Florida on the water for a while and had a stucco house that never suffered from it (altho concrete block under).

My advice is to get The Straw Bale House (available from Real Goods Independant Living Books, by Athena Swentzell Steen, Bill Steen, & David Bainbridge) and subscribe to The Last Straw, from Out On Bale -- Out on Bale --By Mail, 1037 East Linden Street, Tucson, AZ 85719. They deal with bale builders all over the US, Canada, and even Europe, so they might be your two best resources. Altho you can also try a search engine on the net and see who comes up.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), November 04, 2000.

A site that may have some info is www.papercrete.com I recall seeing bale buildings covered there.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

Julie, my concern with humidity relates to condensation from inside moisture more than outside moisture. Here in Oregon, we take care of this problem by using vapor barriers, or at least vapor barrier paint (PVA primer) to keep the moist indoor air from reaching the area within the shell of the house which is at "dewpoint". Unfortunately, in Florida, the ambient outside temperature is often right about AT dewpoint. Thus, if the inside temp is cooler, then condensation will take place either on the surface of the house, or withing the straw bale, if the damp air can get into the straw. I've actually seen water running down the outside of the windows in Florida during late May, because the windows were slightly cooler than the already sarurated outside air.

Again, it may not be a problem but I'd be careful, and do more research.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), November 04, 2000.

oh -- JOJ -- one of the things that I understand from my reading that is a superior factor of Straw Bale construction is the breathability of the walls. Or so I am told. Some folks have touted it that have terrible respiratory problems.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), November 04, 2000.

I certainly appreciate everyone's comments, and thank you Mark for volunteering labor and offer to check into straw resources. May take you up on that later, but it will probaly be a few years before we build. When properly built, hurricaines are not a problem as construction does meet hurricane building codes. (Only wish they did for tornadoes as well!)

I do have the Straw Bale Book and another one?, and know you can check the moisture content of bales. What I'm really looking for is feedback from anyone who has built a straw bale structure in high humidity environment who can give me first-hand personal experience as to any potential problems. There's alot of information on the market about buildings out west, but little in our region.

I do plan on doing more checking websites, but since I just discovered CountrySide Forum, this seemed like an excellent starting point. Thanks again and I do appreciate your help.

P.S. Mark, morbid curosity -- why your handle of "deadgoatman"?

-- Marsha W. - GA (CaprisMaa@aol.com), November 04, 2000.

For information on alternative energy & building info. for the southeast,check ASPI in KY or Long Branch Environmental Center in North Carolina,Asheville area. ASPI has a webpage & I'll email you that.Long branch prob does but I don't know it.I recall that someone in KY was building straw bale and ASPI should know who.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 04, 2000.

Have you found the straw bale list on-line? You could pose your question there, and probably get an answer, as they have a lot of people who have been building them for years.

http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list- archive/index.html

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 04, 2000.

Kathleen, that url wouldn't open for me. Is it correct?

Julie, if the structure is stuccoed, outside, and plastered inside, it can't breathe. But that's not really a problem. You don't want air migrating through the wall. That's the way heat passes in or out without you're wanting it to.

Plan on getting your fresh air through windows or heat exchangers. The other thing with the straw bales "breathing" is that this is how warm air meets cool air (inside the walls), which is how condensation happens. For instance, and I admit to having all my PRACTICAL experience in cooler climates, if there is no vapor barrier on the HEATED side of a wall insulated with fiberglass, the moist, warm air from inside the house will meet a cold surface at some point inside the wall. At that point, concdensation will occur, causing wet insulation, which loses a lot of its R value, and also will eventually end up causing dry rot in the studs.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), November 05, 2000.

Here I am! -- a live one living in a strawbale house in a rather soggy county in Washington. It is still open straw on the inside yet, but still plenty dry. We don't have hot summers like you do down there, but my husband can't take hot weather and is thrilled that the temperature inside is moderate & cool even on our unusual 90 degree days. Remember: insulation works both ways -- 2ft thick walls will keep you cool in the hot weather as well as warm in the cold weather. We have had no mould and we heat our 1600 sq ft house (with cathedral ceiling in the living room) with a medium-size certified woodstove without too much trouble. We do have the tubes imbedded in the concrete slab floor but have not started up the whole radiant floor system yet because we ran out of money. With that, I think we would probably get by with a cord a year, but that is all speculation at this point.

We have had no instances of condensation on the inside of our windows in any season. I insisted that our windows be inset about 6", so that from the outside one could get a sense of the depth of the walls. All the strawbale houses I have seen have the windows flush to the outside of the walls, and from the outside, you cannot appreciate the solidity of the structure. I mean, it just looks like a stuccoed house -- what's so cool about that? That still leaves about 14" interior window sill to use for shelves or to incorporate in window seats, etc. Moreover, if you have your windows flush to the outside surface, in the kitchen, if you want to open a window, you have to reach across the depth of the counter plus about 20", which is quite a stretch for anyone but a basketball player.

One of the wonderful things about a strawbale house is its solidity and quiet. Windstorms do not rattle your walls. Weather is outside. For earthquake stamina, they are rated higher than regular houses. I don't know about hurricanes, but I'd have to think it's got to be better than mobiles and clapboard.

It will in all probability cost about the same as a regular house, but you get so much more from it, and your real savings will come in heating (or cooling) bills over the years. And it is hard to put a number on how it feels to live in a solid house.

Oh, your roof is REALLY important: go for a steel roof with a 50 year or lifetime warranty. Put the bucks in the roof. When it is POURING here, day after day, night after night, we never have to worry about leaks, and that is the one thing I'm paranoid about. We have moisture sensor in 4 places, and the north wall has had the highest reading of 14%, which is still not a worry.

We got our bales from a guy who advertized in the little nickel want ads (I don't know if you have such things down there). I believe it was $3.00 a bale for dry eastern WA wheatstraw, with a 500 bale minimum load, delivered. We had plenty leftover, but you can always find uses for them. Ricestraw also works. I don't know what you have in your area.

Everybody does the three little pigs routine like we never heard it before, but you just ignore it. You gotta pity them - they have to live in pindly stick-built houses with barely 6 inches between them and the weather, the noise and their neighbors. Go for it!

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 06, 2000.

http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list-archive/index.html

Well, it opened when I tried it from my favorites list, so we'll try one more time -- it should work, as I cut and pasted it. If not, just do a search on straw-bale, and eventually you should come up with the links to it -- I hope!!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 06, 2000.

Strawbale would do great down here in the SE. I am also looking into strawbale building, and have done extensive research and questioning about it (I live in the Fla. panhandle). The only concern is moisture creeping into the bales- but if the house is built properly, that shouldn't ne a problem. The is a strawbale house somewhere in Fla. that has withheld several hurricanes, etc. I'm still trying to find it - heard about it on a strawbale website. The insulation is great for this area - really keeps the house cool in the summer. I began my search by going on the web and looking under search terms like strawbale, green building, alternative building, etc. There are some good, professional strawbale builders out West who gave me lots of help - found them on those web searches. They even have copies of ordinances, fire tests, etc that were passed in other cities to help clear they way for you. Heck, if I still live in this area when you build, I'll come help ya. We can have a good old fashioned barn raising! Feel free to contact me, I can try to dig up the websites, etc. fo ya. Good luck I applaud all who want to build green. - Julia

-- Julia in Tally (tofubiscuit@excite.com), November 07, 2000.

MARSHA ...JULIE FALSELY REPORTED THAT STRAW BALE WAS AROUND OVER 150+ YEARS.EVEN AT 150 YEARS THIS PREDATES THE INVENTION OF THE BALER.THE FIRST STRAW BALE HOUSE WAS BUILT IN 1880`S

CORDially YOURS CORDWOODGUY PS:PLEASE READ THIS REPORT ABOUT STRAW BALE IT SHOOK ME UP. http://www.efn.org/~apro/strawbale.html

-- cordwoodguy (cordwoodguy@n2teaching.com), June 22, 2001.

There has to be a lot more real world tests on Strawbale structures in humid area's. There is a posting of a Strawbale house build in Florida that is doing just fine after a number of years.

The Strawbale Dormitory that CORDWOOD GUY cites violated a number of now known Strawbale building mistakes: 1) They put up sheetrock on the inside of the bales which blocks & traps moisture and the flow of air. It can also become a inside surface for moisture to condense on. Strawbale techniques do not recommend this at all. The bales need to breathe and have room to breathe. Natural plaster is recommended. 2) They used multiple layers of cement stucco on the outside of the bales. This again is not recommended as it makes a layer that blocks transfer of moisture and provides a impermeable surface for condensation. 3) They did not use natural plasters on the inside or outside of the bales. Natural plasters with lime on the outside have proven themselves in hundred of years of use. Using natural plasters on the inside combined with lime would keep high moisture from penetrating but also allow for breathability of the walls. 4) It is a must that there be high quality vents in moisture producing areas such as bath/shower, kitchen stove, etc areas.

Bottom line is that Strawbale buildings should use natural plasters for breathability so that the moisture is not trapped anywhere in the outside walls. The way this strawbale was built almost guarantees trapping moisture in the walls. This is not a properly built strawbale structure and is not an example of what a properly built strawbale wall can do.

Its been consistantly shown in tests that building grade strawbale has a R Value of at least R3 per inch and more in the range of R3.5 to R4 per inch which cellulose consistantly tests at. I believe sticky blown in cellulose tested at about R3.65 per inch. This would be 20.075 for a 5.5 inch 2x6 wall. Combined with regular sheathing at R.5 and siding & drywall or paneling and you get R21 or a little above that for a 2x6 combo wall unless you add a little foam with a reflective radiant barrier(recommended in hot climates).

Wood studs in buildings are thermal bridges that only have a R value of R1 to R1.25.This thermal bridging effect can be countered somewhat by using at least a 1/2"(1" is better) of panel foam insulation sheathing on the outside of the studs. Even with adding in the thermal mass effect in thick cordwood walls softwood will have added R value of R1.5 so a 16" cordwood wall will have a effective R value of R24 which isn't bad and more practical where its not possible to use a 24"(R36) thick wall.

Michael C

-- Michael C (noemailspam@onposts.com), January 20, 2002.

We would also like to know of first hand experience with straw bale in the heat and humidity of FL.

We are hoping to close this month on our property. It is really OFF the grid and straw bale would be sooooooo convenient a material in which to use since we have to get everything to site by boat.

I was wondering if anyone had had any experience with baled shredded (recycled of course) plastic instead of straw.

-- BC (katnip364@aol.com), February 10, 2002.

BTW...we would use vertical rebar from foundation to roof - two per bale for structural wind integrity. We would also have to bolt over these rebar stands a horizontal steel beam that would allow roof tie downs.

Anyone know the wind factor on this?

-- BC (katnip364@aol.com), February 10, 2002.