O.k. now I have plenty of yeast, thank you Vicky, and plenty of flour, bought it on sale for .59 for 5lbs. Problem is the bread won't rise. I am using a bread machine, it worked great when I was using bread flour but now........pityful little half loaves. I have proofed the yeast, it's fine. I have sifted the flour, no luck. What is the difference between bread flour and all purpose flour anyway? Is there anything I can add or do to get my bread to rise? Thanks much Tina

-- Tina (clia88@newmexico.com), November 28, 2000

Answers

You may need to add a little more water, that's what I do when Use the machine and it doesn't rise. I pour a little water right on the dough about 30 mins before it's done. Why? I don't know, but it has worked.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.

I use a little warmer liquid than I would normally. Also you can purchase gluten powder and add it, it helps. How much yeast are you using? I find I have to use almost as much for one loaf in a machine as 4 loaves by hand. I have no idea why, I guess that is why I mostly just use my machine for specialty breads and do my main baking by hand still. Bread flour has a higher gluten content, but I have never found it made all that much difference what I used, except in the machine. good luck - diane

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.

Go to to the health food store(I find it is less expensive there) and pick up a couple of pounds of Gluten or it can be called Hi Gluten Flour. It is available at Albertson's, Smiths and other grocery stores around here. I find that it assists the yeast and the flour not only in the machine, but doing it manually. You only need to use less than a tablespoon.

-- Evelyn (leaves8@hotmail.com), November 28, 2000.

sorry i can't help you tina.but i did see that diane makes it by hand. HOW??????????? step by step,ingredients etc. sevuplae & gracias (that's german)

-- fred in wi (sixuvusmeyers@aol.com), November 28, 2000.

Fred - do you want whole wheat? White? Rye? Or just a feel for how to do it by hand. There are as many different recipes for bread as there are for cookies. The library is full of bread books but I happen to like Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. I will post whatever you want. diane

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.

The Moosewood cookbooks and "Joy of Cooking" have great clear step by step directions. I am sure your library would have one of them Fred. Its worth trying, though you may ruin a batch at the very beginning. Good luck.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), November 28, 2000.

My bread machine says not to add the salt near the yeast so I add it to the water then add dry incredients.

-- kathy h (ckhart@earthlink.net), November 28, 2000.

Great answers you guys! It must be the gluten, I will get some tomarrow when I'm in town again. Thank you all so much for coming through for me yet again.

-- Tina (clia88@newmexico.com), November 28, 2000.

Make sure the place that you are raising your yeast isn't too hot, and good luck! Sounds like you already checked the rest of the trouble spots. One of the ladies in our churc, who is a wonderful cook, asked me to make the rolls for the upcoming church banquet. Seems she has tried and tried to make yeast breads and rolls, and they turned into solid lumps every time--just didn't rise at all. Some friend of hers told her that some folk's body chemestry just didn't mix with yeast at all, and that those folks just CAN'T make bread. Have you ever heard of this? Tina, keep on trying!!!!

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), November 28, 2000.

I never could get a loaf to rise in the breadmaker, either, until I used my father's recipe. He does not follow the instructions in the bread machine book, Tina, as he couldn't get them to rise, either, and was tired of making boat anchors. He puts 2 cups of white flour in first, then 1 cup of applesauce. If the applesauce is quite runny, he adds 1/3 c. of water. If not runny, add the 1/3 plus 1 T water. Add 4 Tablespoons oil. Next put in 1 cup whole wheat flour, and 1 spoon ( he uses a spoon like you eat with, not a tablespoon or teaspoon) yeast. Do not proof the yeast first. Then put the pan in the breadmaker and bake as you like it. My loaves still weren't as high and light as we like, so I have been adding 1/3 c. gluten powder when I put in the first 2 cups of flour. Works great every time. Jan

-- Jan in Colorado (Janice12@aol.com), November 28, 2000.

Fred, I use "The Encyclopedia of Country Living" by Carla Emery. This book has the best chapter on bread making that I have ever read. It's easy to understand and she tells you how bread "works", so you can use any ingredients you may have on hand. Some of the best bread (according to my family) was made following the advice in her book. She has so much information at the beginning of the chapter, I have reread it several times, and each time find something that didn't "click" for me before. Great way to use up leftovers. I have made bread using EVERYTHING, except meat. Good luck, and I hope you find something that works for you.

-- Amber in WA (mikeandamberq@hotmail.com), November 28, 2000.

thank you tina for starting this post.i think everybody here is sick of eatin' aldi's 39 cent-a-loaf(cardboard).amber mentioned the book by carla emery ,i plan on gettin' that one.anne,the moosewood cookbooks&the joy of cooking who are the authors?diane made an offer to post a bread recipe.if that offer is still good, i'd like just sumthin' simple that everyone would like(that i can't screw up),white bread probably,but i'm sure gonna try to wok my way up to rye!!

thanks again everyone,fred

p.s.what is the difference between the different flours?also bread machine or oven?

-- fred in wi (sixuvusmeyers@aol.com), November 29, 2000.

Fred, use the bread machine to kneed and rise, then bake in the oven in a bread pan. Tina, more liquid, use gluten (tablespoon for every cup of flour), and more yeast, up to a tablespoon for every cup of flour if required! Sounds like a lot, but it works for me. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 29, 2000.

The saga continues........I bought gluten, added 2tbls, and a little extra yeast, I use 3 cups flour in my machine. It rose a little better and sure smelled good...then when I opened the lid, there they were, little pieces of bay leaf all through the bread. Hmmm... maybe I'm being tested, like jobe. Anyway, started a sour dough starter using the dried preperation Marilyn sent me, thanks again Marilyn, Put it in the oven with the pilot light on, will leave it overnight. I am now more determined than ever to make good bread and outright refuse to buy that "stuff" they sell in the store. So I asked hubby, "how about a cheese and bay leaf sandwich for lunch tomarrow?" He made a face but will just have to deal with it, I am. If I don't kill the starter I'll make bread tomarrow and the chickens can enjoy the leftover baybread. Oh, and I used some potato water from last night, it sure smelled good. Onward and upward!!!

-- Tina (clia88@newmexico.com), November 29, 2000.

Tina, read the directions I sent you with the starter again. It can take several days-2 or 3 at least-to rehydrate and start working to the point that it will raise bread. Be sure you use the starter several times for pancakes, biscuits or that coffee cake until it gets strong enough to raise bread. When I make that French bread, I make a sponge with the starter the night before and let it work overnight on the counter. Our house is 65-70o at night. The next morning, I add the rest of the ingredients and let it rise once. Then I punch it down, knead it again and shape into the loaves and put it in the pans. I have some of those long trough looking pans for French bread. Then I let it rise again before baking. You've got to be patient when you use only sourdough starter to raise the bread. If it's really cool in the house, I will put the bowl in a warmer place, usually in the dehydrator with the shelves removed but only on a low setting about 85-90o.

I don't have and don't want a bread machine so I can't address that question. Good luck.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), November 29, 2000.

Forgot when I made the last post.

Utah Extension has a wonderful "short course" on bread making in their website. For the life of me, I can't find the address. Most of the stuff is geared for high altitude baking but I have a degree in Home Economics education, taught it for a number of years and have been baking breads for my family since dirt was new (hey, I'm almost a senior citizen) and I still learned things on that site. Do try to find it and if anyone is successful, please post the address for the rest of us. Thanks.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), November 29, 2000.

This may not help a lot, but I got rid of my bread machine. Darn thing was nothing but trouble, heated unevenly and caused the bottom to burn, the center to be done, and the top raw. I got rid of it and went back to making it by hand, it was a whole lot less grief.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), November 30, 2000.

Annie; You are using your bread machine the way I use mine. I forgot to mention that I never could really get satifaction from the way it baked so I went to just using it to kneed and mine has a setting called manual that I can use that will kneed twice and then give my a ring that says it is time to put it in a pan. I can make all sorts of breads that way.

Fred - here is my basic white bread recipe that my mom used and I have used for many years.

2 Tablespoons (or 2 packages) yeast dissolved in l/4 cup lukewarm water with 1 teaspoon of sugar. Let set for 15 to 20 minutes (while you are scalding milk etc.) be sure and put it in a glass container that is bigger than a cup because it starts working and can go over the side) Scald 2 cups of milk (I must admit I use the microwave for that now but it can be done on the stove) scald mean just before the boiling point. I put that into a big stainless steel bowl and then add 1/3 cup shortening 2 Tablespoons sugar and l Tablespoon and l teaspoon salt. Stir until the shortening is melted and mixed in and then add 1 3/4 cup cold water. (it is at this point where I decide if I am going to do a sponge or not but that comes later after we have some experience).

Add the yeast mixture and stir well. Then we begin adding the flour. This is the touchy part because all flour is different and each day can be a little different depending on weather and humidity etc. I add approximately 12 cups of flour, 3 cups at a time to begin with, mixing well after each addition. (at a certain point I give up the spoon and use my hands) Once the flour is in and it doesn't feel really sticky (if it does just keep adding a little flour at a time, after you have done it for a while you really get a feel for what you like) Knead 7-10 minutes on a floured board until it feels nice and elastic. Put back in your big bowl and cover and let rise approx. 1 hour. Spank down and form into four loaves. Put in greased pans and let rise approximately 1 more hour. Bake at 425 degrees for 15 minute and then turn down to 375 for another 30 minutes. Makes one of the best white breads I have every had. Good luck, Oh, and when we have an occasional failure we call it soup bread and cut it up in cubes to use in soup or dry and save for croutons. diane

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 30, 2000.

Hi Tina.. Could it not be you but the machine?? I had the same prob. with the dough not rising and it was the machine..took it back and got another and everything was fine!

-- Lynn (mscratch1@semo.net), November 30, 2000.

Tina and Lynn, you might be on to something with the idea about the "defective" bread machine. King Arthur Flour (1-800-827-6836 or www.kingarthurflour.com wonderful recipes !)company says that a decent bread machine will out knead a person every time, they recommend that people use the machine to knead and rise the dough ( the machine heats the dough just right as it is rising), then bake it in the oven. I tend to agree with them, my cheap Hitachi machine will successfully knead and rise 100% whole wheat, while my wrists complain too much with all that stiff dough hand kneading! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), December 01, 2000.

About the flour qustion : there are about 5 zillion different types of wheat. One year we bought a bad batch of wheat which just wouldn't rise. Seems that once in awhile the wheat does some transformation trick (before it is harvested) and through some chemical change will not rise! Another year we bought 2 types of wheat - one had a great nutty flavor but wouldn't rise so well. The other type of wheat rose great but didn't have such a great flavor. So we had to mix the two and prayed to the bread godess everytime we baked!!

In the past we grew our own wheat which was the best!!!

BUT I think the problem (as the others said) is probably your bread machine.

-- kelly (kellytree@hotmail.com), December 04, 2000.

Tina, Hi, I am the baker for a local flour mill. Let me share something that might turn all of your baking around. All wheats/flours have different protein/gluten levels. Protein is the difference between all purpose flour, bread flour, pastry or cake flour etc........if you would like to have great success with your bread machine find a flour that is is a High Protein/Gluten hard winter or spring wheat flour. You can get these in white or whole wheat. If you will email RockyMountainMilling.com we can send you a product sheet and maybe even a free sample! Tell them your question is for Pam the Baker. God bless you during this special season! Pam

-- Pamela Kay Harsh (harshhaus@aol.com), December 04, 2000.

Great goin', Diane. Fred, don't go near those machines. You get too much from DIY. I've been making all our bread (including burger/sausage buns and foreign varieties)for over 40 years. Found out and taught my children "bread is very forgiving" long before that sentence was published. You'll find this out. Something I've also learned, that is MUCH more valuable, is that making bread with your own hands can be very healing. If you keep at it, you'll find out that it takes very little time--no more than the machine--and the rewards are wonderful!

-- Happy Baker (zumende@aol.com), December 04, 2000.

Fred, forgot to mention the wonderful world of sour dough. I have one starter that I've moved back and forth across the Atlantic four times--have had it over 20 years! Amazing what you can put into a yogurt container... I've also had the most wonderful benefit of trying the local air's yeasty babies in several countries. San Francisco doesn't hold a candle to any of them. My starter is now a mix of several. "Joy of Cooking" is a great first book for learning any kitchen technique--it is used as a college text. "Laurel's Kitchen" is a "warm motivator", i.e., inspires you to try anything because of the joy of creating good nutrition. She's also written her own bread book but don't have yet so can't recommend. Later on you'll be experimenting and creating your own recipes (yes, it's that easy). Buon appetito!

-- Happy Baker (zumende@aol.com), December 04, 2000.

Evelyn, I tried the gluten , instead of adding extra water. I also forgot the whole wheat flour,(I made wheat bread in the machine). so I stopped the machine and added it. Did it raise, well, up and up and down over the sides. It was the best loaf of wheat bread to come out of that machine. Very light. Glad you posted a response.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 04, 2000.

The bread flour has a much finer texture..when I have used all purpose flour the bread was denser, unevenly baked..Call me a slave to modern conviences, but I will not go back to handmade loaves..been there done that and didn't like all the time consuming labor and the hours it took to get a loaf.. I get very nice baked bread from my machine and don't have to worry about all the mess and watching it part.

-- Lynn (mscratch1@semo.net), December 04, 2000.

Lynn, the whole wheat bread I make is done within 2 1/2 hours. It only has to raise once. The recipe is on the forum somewhere, but if you want it and can't find it e-mail me.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 05, 2000.