I am so excited-the two goats we thought we were not going to get until after they kidded, are coming tomorrow. (sheesh-figures that today would be bitterly cold out!)

One of the does is due...well any minute. It could be in a day or two or it could be a couple fo weeks yet. They peopl we ware getting them from, received them backin October-from friends of theirs who moved, and who had not really done much at all with them. They were running with a buck in July(obviously that is not the sire), and then in August with a different buck until October. So it is guesswork. She is a Saanen, and it doesn't look like she is hugely pregnant, but she is big so it might not be readily apparent. Her udder began to fill out about three or four weeks ago, but it is not huge.

Anyway, we are getting last minute preps done...any suggestions?

And the whole reason for the post-I would like people's opinions/experience with taking the kids away, or leaving them on. We of course want the milk-but of course will share with the babies.

This will be our first experience with kidding-she is at least a second time mom-she is three and a half I think. (Still working on theat info, thankfully the breeder is not too far away-just hard to reach!)

Thanks! Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), December 29, 2000

Answers

I let all the kids nurse their dams. I've posted a lot about the methods I use to do this( should be in the archives), but here are a few of the reasons I have for dam-raising. Dam raising should only be used if you are very certain that your herd is tested negative for CAE and has been for some time.

-dam raising gives me bigger, healthier kids that are less prone to sickness and disease.

-the mother teaches the kids all about how to be a goat, what to eat, how to behave, how to get along with the rest of the herd. The kids eat solid food earlier because of this.

-Dam raising is a lot easier and a lot less work than bottle feeding.I have more time to enjoy and play with my goats.

-The kids eat more frequently than they would on a bottle. The dam's udder does not get distended with milk, and she milks better because of the constant demand for milk.

-The kids are friendly because I play with them, but do not regard me as their mother. They do not jump and climb all over me or cry forlornly when I leave the goat pen as the bottle fed kids do.

- There are less dominance problems and bullying because the whole herd is one big family. If the kids are bottle raised, the does do not relate to them as their offspring, and do not protect or nurture them. The kids then have to be protected from their own mothers!

-As a mother who breastfed all her children, I feel that bottlefeeding is both unnatural and unhealthful. If it's not broken, don't fix it!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 29, 2000.

I agree with everything that Rebecka said on the subject except that I didn't breast feed my kids.Not enough milk ;>).The kids always seem to do better on mothers milk.If,for some reason,we can't leave them on the doe,we use Purina kid milk replacer.They do better on that than on pasteurized milk.I think pasteurizing destroys some necessary enzymes in the milk. We shut the kids up at night in a box in the barn where mom can be close.Milk for us in the morning and let the kids run with mom all day.If you have triplets or quads,you may want to feed milk replacer to a couple of them so you can have milk for the house.Best to give away buck kids immediately after they have some colostrum.Let someone else have the worries.Most of them aren't worth the cost of raising. BTW...if you need milk replacer,all the clerks will try to sell you calf milk replacer saying it's the same.Taint so.Kid has much more fat.

-- JT in NW Florida (gone2seed@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Sorry, but I've got to disagree. Take the kids off Mama!! Unless you have the test results in your hand saying the doe is CAE negative, you're just asking for trouble, and if she's due any minute, you aren't going to have time to get test results back on your own test.Once you've seen what CAE can do to a poor goat, you get downright paranoid about it. As for getting rid of the buck kids immediately, around here we get $1.00 a pound live weight for them. We raise them up to about 60-70 pounds. It doesn't take too many of them to pay for your hay for the full year. For me, heat treating the colostrum was a little daunting at first, but with a good thermos, it's really not hard. The most a bottle fed kid gets is a pint and a half twice a day, so if she can't feed her babies and leave milk for you, too, it's time to cull anyway. Kathie

-- Kathie in Western Washington (twinrosefarm@worldnet.att.net), December 29, 2000.

I have to agree with Kathie, but I do have CAE+ goats. One thing though, the dam that all of these are from tested CAE- at first. I had to put her down this spring. I missed the birth of two does from my milker this spring so the only CAE- I have is a wether...sheesh. I would strongly advise that you take the kids unless you have several CAE- test results.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 29, 2000.

I'm with Rebekah, including the third sentence that says dam raising should only be used with CAE negative dams. I have dam raised my kids and have experienced all of the same advantages. I've never had kids scour or get ill in any way. Also, if you want to go away for any period of time, you can just leave the kids with their dams so you don't have to milk at all. Works great!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), December 30, 2000.

Sarah, everyone has a different approach and thinking process concerning this matter. CAE is so important if you have purebred animals and sell breeding or show stock. I'll just tell you what I do. I have a mixed bag of goats of all types and sizes. Last year, I milked whoever I could, leaving the babies with mom. Took them away at night, milked in the morning, and let the babies have the rest. Then, I had one goat who's baby was stillborn, so I milked her for several months and left the rest of them alone. In my case, CAE is really not an issue. My kids go to the market for meat. I know for a fact that a few of my goats came from CAE positive herds, but these guys are pets and will live as comfortably as possible for the rest of their lives.

-- Teresa in TN (otgonz@bellsouth.net), December 30, 2000.

I would also only let does raise their kids if they were tested negative. Even having said that I wouldn't let any of my does nurse thier kids unless they were raised heat treated and pasturized by me, since it can take years, or a stress for the titer to rise to a detectable level to be tested positive.

Saying that CAE is not something you need to worry about because you are raising meat stock, isn't necessarily true. CAE comes in many forms and if you are stuck with the hard, no milk udders from CAE, this would leave you with dead kids, if you didn't catch it fast enough, considering the udder looks full from a distance. The arthritic form gives you does so dibilitated that they can not forage for food, costing you money and time, with more grain and much more frequent hoof trimming from non-use. The ecephiletic form kills your kids at birth but even worse yet kills nicely grown kids, and this is a slow horrid dragging of the rear end death!

There is nothing faster to kill your reputation or the sales of your breeding stock than to say, OH! I don't worry about CAE, even if you don't have show stock, with the internet I know all the folks I give information to know enough to ask about CAE and CL. And with my big mouth that's a whole lot of folks! :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 30, 2000.

Dumb question (yah I know the only dumb question is the one we don't ask!!9 - What is CAE?

-- kelly (kellytree@hotmail.com), December 31, 2000.

You got me, Vicki! I know it matters, but I think I'm not quite there yet. I'm still buying auction goats that look like they need me....

-- Teresa in TN (otgonz@bellsouth.net), December 31, 2000.

So Vicki, if you take the kid before it ever has a chance to nurse and feed it heated colostrum and milk replacer or pasturize the does milk does that end the threat of CAE? In the next generation can that doe nurse her kids? While I am asking, how do you teach kids that you are not a bouncing board? I am baby sitting triplet babies that I have been bottle feeding for the last week and I can see that the little boy doesnt have much future it he doesnt learn to behave himself, I call him Rodeo. I know how to train a dog, repetition, is a goat the same? Gdog in wi

-- Gdog in WI (windridg@chorus.net), January 03, 2001.

So Vicki, if you take the kid before it ever has a chance to nurse and feed it heated colostrum and milk replacer or pasturize the does milk does that end the threat of CAE? ............................................................ Oh how we wish this was the end of it! Problem is even with complete isolation, (a bigger herd in Texas even washes the kids) heat treated colostrum (even folks using cattle colostrum even with the threat of Johnes) and pasturised milk or milk replacer, their are still break throughs. You can blame some of this on human error, but I also think like HIV and German Measles their will be a few kids who pick up CAE in uetero, guess not all placenta's are created equal.

So until we have a better system, we test yearly and continue to heat treat and pasturise, even if their was a 100% cure, I would continue to bottle for the tame kids. I also know that my does raised on prevention have much fewer health problems and softer more milky udders than when we didn't pasturise. We also have very few insidences of mastitis, which is eaiser to catch if you are milking and bottling your kids. Doe kids who nurse mastitic moms, will freshen with mastitis, especially staph. I do not like bottle fed bucks, I like to have bucks I am keeping on the Lambar where they get much less individual attention, they are still tame, but not the needy bottle kind of tame. Or perhaps the word is obnoxious! Vicki

In the next generation can that doe nurse her kids? ................................................. Yes, you can let any doe that tests negative nurse. We simply can't, it would stop all our business. 99% of the folks I sell stock to will only purchase from folks who are not only negative, but who raise stock on prevention.

While I am asking, how do you teach kids that you are not a bouncing board? ....................................................

I cut the infants a lot of slack, since I usually :) have so many of them any attention they get, even if it is from jumping up on me, is fine. But!! Once they are weaned I press them down and say down. Even then I will have at least one who is always obnoxious, I could be cleaning the water trough and I know sure as rain that Bo is the one eating my hair, or pawing my back, though at 11 months she has learned better than to jump. I also pinch their necks and say down, their mom's would bite their necks and ears, so I just mimic this, I don't pull or pinch ears, because we tattoo and I don't want them to be ear shy. Also teach them to lead now! Vicki -- Gdog in WI (windridg@chorus.net), January 03

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 03, 2001.