Good evening, gentles.

I was just referred over here by an old Y2K friend.

I have a Nubian doe, bred to a Boer buck, who delivered three kids on Christmas night. A VERY unexpected final Christmas present.

One kid, female, is good sized, is nursing well, and is accepted by the mother.

The other two kids, one male and one female, are much smaller than the first one. The little buck was virtually buried in the stable litter by his mother and ignored when we found them. Almost dead from hypothermia. The little doe was doing a bit better, but was not up and walking and definitely not nursing.

We brought the two small ones into the house, got them warmed up, got a decent amount of colostrum into them that first day. Since then, they are bottle feeding ok, about every 2 to 4 hours, except from midnight to about 7 AM, when I sleep (sorry). The little doe is taking about 22 ounces of milk a day, while the little buck is taking about 20 ounces per day.

They are very skinny, but are back in the shed (we are in Michigan, by the way, so temps away from the heat lamp are down as low as the single digits. All three are doing OK.

My question, is how to get the mother to take back these two? She tries to stomp them when I bring them over to nurse from her, even though she rarely kicks when I milk her (this is my first freshening with her, I don't know if she has kidded before). Even with the one kid nursing, I'm getting at least three quarts a day from her.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome. I'll keep bottle feeding the two runts if I must, but I'm back to work Tuesday and my daughter, who has been an enormous help, goes back to school the 8th, which means feeding will be much further apart.

I don't expect to keep either of these two runts to breed, I'll probably put them in the freezer next fall or early winter. I do want to get them back to their mother, though, if I can find a way.

I was thinking of catching some urine, either from the kid she is nursing or from the mother and rubbing that scent on the two runts. She will approach them, but will not lick them or otherwise groom them.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

-- Jon (jon_w@topechelon.com), December 31, 2000

Answers

AHHHH.. the joys of kidding when the mom doesn't let them nurse. i have a doe who recently kidded last monht who is like that. She never was allowed to dam raise her kids from the previous owner. So last Feb when she kidded she had twins, a buck and a doe kid. She loved her buck, but because the breeding was linebreeding it threw back a parrot mouth on the buck. He ended up getting sold at a auction. The doe kid in the meantime was fed by holing mom and making her nurse. But she never once allowed her to nurse. I then had her nurse on a doe that lost her baby and that worked well. I too work work a lot and it was difficult to bottle feed or let alone nurse them. So we had shifts to feed. Then this Thanksgiving she kidded again, same deal., Only this time she didn't like the other doe, she had twins again. so we bottle feed her. i tried making her nurse and mom will hold still for a bit, but she is a pain in the butt. Will reach around a bite the tail, etc. I guess you might be stuck bottle feeding. I would try vasoline on the nose of vicks, both work well. You might also want to try getting some goat stress formula or one of the cloestrum based formulas such as Immuno-G or ID-1 available at goat world for ID and the immuno at http://www.springbriar.com i swear by the immuno, we began using it last feb and had the healthies kid crop ever. Alos try a bit of a molasses based goat adi formuls or if you can't get that then molasses in a bit of warm water ina bottle. Hope this helps. Maybe Vickie might have some ideas too to help. Good Luck

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), December 31, 2000.

We are going through the same thing now,have one 1/2 boor mother that had twins last week and she didnt let one nurse, looks as if she is not producing enough milk so we supplement by feeding one and some time both babys. Holding is the only way she will allow the both to nurse.Looks like u are in for a feeding period enjoy and be happy they were alive when born and mother is doing ok. God bless and have a Great Year

-- Charles steen (xbeeman412@aol.com), January 01, 2001.

Jon, once they have rejected them I have never successfully rebonded them. I did have one doe that had never dam raised kids who had just one buck kid this year. I put her on the milk stand several times a day for a few days to allow the boy to nurse. She loved him and groomed him, just wouldn't nurse him. She finally got the idea. I have bottle feed kids for a lot of years for CAE prevention. You have given these little ones a good start and they will probably survive just fine if you only feed them twice a day now. Maybe three times with the last evening feeding being just before you went to bed, the morning as soon as you could get out there and right when you got home from work, or when your daughter gets home from school. Hope that helps - diane in michigan (oh-they will pile up and keep each other warm just fine- I never use a heat lamp but use a 100 watt bulb in a heatlight fixture up where the kids can't reach it to play with it. One thing that works really well is to take an old barrel (plastic or cardboard) cut a hole in the top to put the cord thru and put the open end down with a hole big enough for the kids to get in and out. Keeps them toasty and they really love it)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 01, 2001.

I too had a mother that wouldn't nurse last year and I faithfully held her for the kidd. It was quite comical since she knew what I was up to she didn't even want me to catch her. Maybe she knew something I didn't but about the start of summer, his hind legs didn't seem to work so he was culled.

-- Ed Holt (goat@sssnet.com), January 01, 2001.

You would probably have better luck fostering them onto a good mother rather than back onto their own. Try the molassas poured down the back, spread some of the baby that is nursings, poop on the rear end of the babies you are trying to foster (though if you are milking the doe, they should already smell like her) and the vic's or vanillia on the nose of the doe works also. If you are going to have to bottle feed, than 16 ounces 3 times a day is fine. Give them a bottle before work and then after work and then before bed, or perhaps after school for your daughter and then just before bed. They of course are going to be smaller initially than the nursing kid, because they are only receiving 20 ounces a day, which is way to little! Even my 4 day old kids consume 40 ounces yesterday, during the 24 hours, and soon will have 4, 16 ounce bottles drained! Once they hit 6 weeks, you can really increase the amount at the feedings, but we find it better to limit to only 16 ounces, the amount their tummys will hold as infants, if over fed as infants it only liquifys the contents of the intestine than you have scours, and then you start the guessing of is it, cocci, ecoli,......... After 6 weeks, we simply fill a Lambar and they get as much as they want 3 times a day, they quite literally leave the meal with their sides poked out and foaming at the mouth! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 01, 2001.

I have grafted kids onto does by holding the mother in a miling stanchion and leeting the kids nurse, threee or four times a day, after a few days of that, I didn't have to hold her legs to keep her from kicking, just had to put the doe up there and feed her some grain. One of the does started mothering her grafted kid but didn't let it nurse unless she was eating at the hay feeder or otherwise too preoccupied to bother moving. The other doe accepted her kid completely. i would guess that the faster you start trying to graft them onto her, the better the results will be. My does had kidded forat least 2 or 3 months when I pulled their kids and grafted the other ones onto them.

Make sure that the kids are good and hungry when you take them to nurse on the doe. They may get too accustomed to the bottle and not want to attempt nursing a hostile doe. You could try the vicks vapor rub on all three kid's rumps and the mother's nose. By the way, if she will not take them, I would consider culling her after her kid is weaned, if you can. Poor mothering seems to be heritable, though sometimes, it is just youth and inexperience.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 01, 2001.

Jon, I hope by now you are feeding the kids more. It really stresses them to be cold so make sure they are in a draft-free shelter. Don't let their size fool you. A first-freshner doe with 3 kids, well the kids will be small at birth. I have not had any luck getting a doe to accept a rejected kid. If the doe is not giving enough milk for all three kids, you can go to any big discount type farm supply store and get lamb milk replacer. It is pricey but the best for kids, and it lasts a long time with just 2 kids to feed. I am kind of picky about the mothering instinct, but, a lot of first-freshners seem to lack it. If they reject the kid/kids twice in a row I cull the doe. Good luck

-- karen (kansasgoats@iwon.com), January 03, 2001.

We raise Registered Purebred Nubians and only bottle feed all the kids, even the wethers. Domestic goats are generally poor mothers. Around here there is a sufficient market for wethers as pets and brush eaters that it is worth our while to bottle feed the kids. It makes an enormous difference in their tameness as adults. All our adults are affectionate and easy to handle. Bottle feeding also helps guarantee that every kid gets a full ration of milk so that they grow bigger and faster. At eight days, three feeding per day is adequate and you can reduce to twice daily after two to three weeks, depending on their thriftiness. I personally wouldn't rely on the dam to raise the babies at this point. Hope this helps. www.sundaycreek.com/nubians

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), January 03, 2001.

Domestic goats are generally poor mothers? I have domestic goats, and have for years, and have only had one less than ideal mother. Even she came around after a few days, she was just very young and inexperienced. My theory is that generations of bottle feeding can lead to animals with little instinct or mothering ability. Just a theory, though.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 04, 2001.