Some of you have herding dogs you are using.

I watch a man put on his demonstration with his Border collies,and was never so impressed with the intellegence & ability of a dog.They were smarter and harder working than some of my neighbors.

Now,I have no hope of being that good at training a herder,he'd been doing it his whole life,and had a world champion,but I would like to train my little girl.I asked the fellow if he offered classes,but he only helped those who bought his pups.

So what reference would you recommend for reading on training a herder effectively?

My girl has good herding instincts and I've obedienced trained her( more or less depending on the day and her mood!)She finally got beyond(again mostly) her bad girl stage,except for still beating up on the big old coonhound.She says he deserves it.

We want to get sheep and goats,when we're ready,and I really want her as a herder.

She's nervous about cows,but readily helped me chased the calves,( and the horse one time,but we won't go there-Hey, it was just a big misunderstanding.OK?)so I'm sure she'll do pretty good on sheep.Since the calves(and the horse) were white,more or less she's got the idea that Sharon says it's ok to chase white things.That's a start.

I want to make sure,with her good memory that I don't inadvertedly implant a bad idea there.I started her on cows too soon when she was still young & more easily spooked.I needed to start smaller and work up,which is why the calves worked.That is what I learned from the trainer.

She also a companion dog & everybody's darling(except the vet,but she has her reasons!Hey you like someone sticking things up your butt?).She's been spending these cold winter days draped over Nick's lap.Spoiled. Best dog I have ever had.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), January 02, 2001

Answers

Hi Sharon, Happy New Year to guys.

I don't have a resource, but I am looking forward to the replies as this has always been of interest to me too.

I do know that the trainers around here start their dogs off herding ducks. They will have sets of 3-6 in different colors so the dogs can split them off, etc. Ducks are easier to replace than sheep or cows in case the dogs get too "assertive!"

I think Countryside has an advertiser that sells various training videos. One has herd dog training, as I recall. I think watching a video would be clearer than reading directions in a book, but just my opinion.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), January 02, 2001.

They are very easy to train. A Border will stay on your 'balance', that is the opposite side of the circle with the animal in the middle between you. A pup usually is ready for this at 7-9 months, allthough some are earlier. You will know when they are ready, just let them around the stock (just a couple) and watch and walk around the circle yourself, clap your hands and invite the dog. Soon the dog will go the same way you go to keep the animals in the middle between you.

Once the dog has balance, then as you walk clockwise, the dog will circle clockwise also, keeping on his balance with you. As you go clockwise, say your word for clockwise, come-bye, bye, right, whatever you choose. Then go counter-clockwise around the stock and say the word for that direction, away, left. Soon the dog will associate that direction with the word, and will do it way out there without you. Agility people use left and right.

They do not know pushing the stock away from you at all, this must be taught, with a lead, and 'stay in the back'. If you want the goats in the barn, you must go to the barn door. You go where you want the animals to end up at. They have it inside their head to always bring to you, that's what so many people don't understand and get frustrated.

With allot more training, you can teach to push right or left across the field with you standing still. You send the dog out either left or right, use the left or right command to get the dog to the place opposite of where you want the goats to go, say 'there', the dog will stop, and then say 'walk up' and the dog should drive the herd the direction you want. Like backing up a trailor.

Lots of goats are harder, General has to bring me little bands of goats at a time, since they won't stay in a bunch, they tend to spread out over the pasture. He'll bring in 5, and I say 'go get more' and he flies over the hill, and will be right back with a few more. Sometimes they all come in at once, but not all the time. Sheep stay together better. General will walk right behind a kid with his chest touching the kid's behind, and push him up with the rest. It's so much fun working with these dogs. But really, the dogs know so much allready born in them.

They learn all by themselves what you do, and when you do it. General will come to the garden and get me if I am late bringing in the goats, and he won't let up till I stop what I'm doing and go open the gate for him. He will do it all by himself now. And it dosen't matter what color the animals are!

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), January 02, 2001.

There are good books and videos out there, but there is no substitute for going to a trainer and observing. Get ahold of your local Border collie or Aussie club and ask about stockdog trials and training. I don't know the area of the country you are in--if you will e-mail me directly I can give you names of folks in your general area. You may have to spend a little money on long distance, but you should be able to hook up with an individual or group that can help you. They are awesome to watch, both dogs and trainers. We have a stockdog club here in Arkansas that meets every month and has informal working, then a formal trial once or twice a year. Most trials around the country (Aussie, anyway) welcome all herding dogs and you can see every type out there doing their thing. The breeds all work differently, so it's good to get around someone who knows what they are doing, rather than just let the dog have it's way and maybe form bad habits. Let me know where you are and I'll send some names your way.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), January 02, 2001.

Sharon; Good luck w/your dog. I'm sure she will be fine. The only thing I've noticed is that some train their cow dogs to nip. That would be bad with sheep. Cows are big and even more stubborn than sheep so a little extra is sometimes needed - but only on command. I saw some dogs being re-trained from cows to sheep and that was the one thing the trainer emphasised. Sheep have tender hides and a nip from a dog could easily break the skin which injures the sheep and lives the dog a taste of blood - an association you don't want her to make. Now, what happens if you decide to get black or brown sheep, and your dog is trained to herd white things? Maybe you should paint some of those calves a dark color.

-- Maggie's Farm (elemon@peacehealth.org), January 02, 2001.

Well.thanks for the good information.A program on dogs tonight started off with herders.How coincidental.It's just facinating to me.

I'll have to digest your instructions,Cindy, since I don't know what I'm doing ,I'm a little slow on the uptake.I've not worked with a hearding breed before.It sounds like it gets to be a habit.I'll have to watch how she herds the other dog and see if she does it the way you said.

I have to explain the white thing.We had charlais cattle here and the calves would sometimes slip into the pasture where they weren't supposed to be.So BeeBee's job was to run them out of there,and she did really good with it.

One day I put the horse back in his pasture,the pasture that she was allowed to chase the caves out of.Well,she pretty much figured that horse was sorta white and he was in the wrong place and it was her job to chase him out of there,no matter the size.At least that the best I can figure,bc she never chased him before.

Well they went flying down the hill, up the hill, and back down the hill again,with the dumb coonhound running the sideline.It was just a matter of time til either the horse got hurt going thru the fence, one or both of the dogs got kicked, or I got run over trying to intervene.But then she listened,and all was fine, except the horse was really tee'd off.But,after I yelled at her for that, she wouldn't chase the cows,anymore.And was more nervous about the calves,like I'd yell at her,again.

But she seemed to get over it and is OK with chasing small white things again.And,that duck idea might work, too.

And,since I've taught her not to chase the deer that are always outside the house,now, I figure I have to watch it, and maybe have to convince her it's ok to chase some dark things too like a goat or dark sheep.I expect we'll work it out.

She doesn't nip,so far anyway,so that's good.

Thanks for the ideas.Now where else but here can you find people who like to sit and talk working dogs? Isn't it nice.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), January 03, 2001.

I did get some of those videos from Canada years ago, they had some things I could use, but allot of it I don't agree with. They keep the dogs tied to a wall in the barn unless the dog is out working or out walking with you for exercise. This is very different from our homestead type farms, where the dogs can come in the house or lay around the porch or just keep an eye on the place. There is a man who lives not far from us who does those little demos with his dogs, and he keeps them in cages above ground, like big rabbit cages. I saw that and I never went back there. The dogs need to run and keep fit and keep their muscles strong, mine just about run all day around the big yard area around the house. Allot of people will say you will ruin the dog by letting it come in the house, but that is just not true.

Most of the videos are for long, long run outs, where you instruct the dog from way back, and geared toward large sheep farms and trials. With me, I just point to the animal I want. There is a show on BBC on Sundays called 'One Man and His Dog' which is neat to watch.

It's really all in how you raise them. Raise them around animals from the time they are small, and they are used to them, and won't just chase them for no reason. They must know 'down' and 'here', then you are always able to control them. It's so hard for Gen to walk by my side out in the pasture, he wants so bad to just go run out behind the herd and bring them to me, but I say 'here' every time he gets more than a few feet away. Just do allot of obedience training, they should drop down anywhere, no matter how far away, if you tell them. And they should come straight to you every time you ask. When they do good, get really excited for them and tell them. Every day, let her do something she knows good, and praise her over and over, and she'll learn faster to please you.

And don't forget the tennis balls! Gen is the best catcher, he will be 5 feet off the ground as he catches a pop fly. He will sit in the catchers position and I will pitch to him. He loves it. And he is the best outfielder. His favorite thing is bringing me chickens, one at a time. He loves it that they move so fast, it keeps him tuned up! He can keep one rooster out of the flock for as long he wants, just like a cutting horse. He wants everyone who comes to visit to see him do this! When people would come for pups, I would open the gate and let him show them his herding, so now it's a habit.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), January 03, 2001.

I have two border collies now and have had two others in the past. Dogs have different aspects in their herding. My dog Sprocket would be a great head dog on cattle as he has ZERO fear of anything and goes straight to the head. he wouldn't be a good sheep dog because he is too gung ho. Cosmo on the other hand takes a rear position and moves , chickens, goats, cats, gently in the direction he wants. Together, even though I have NO knowledge of how to train them, they have put my goats back in numerous times, move the chickens in when I want them to...I don't know how they know.

Also, Sprocket is one of the most amazing frisbee dogs you could ever want to see. Really fun! Sorry, I just saw a chance to brag on my favorite breed and took it!! Hope you get some good training info!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 03, 2001.

Have raised and trained Borders since 1988. When we sell a pup to an inexperienced farmer who wants to train his own dog, we always recommend The Farmer's Dog by John Holmes. Lots of other good books and videos out there but this one is very good for beginners. Just be sure to read the whole book not just the last few chapters.

-- Nancy Bakke-McGonigle Mn. Sunset (dmcgonig@smig.net), January 08, 2001.