For all my friends on the forum. I am saddened and troubled by all the hurt that's been done on the forum. As an old Christian [since June of 1961] it's a llittle easier after all these years, to kinda slow down just a little. I try living my life as Jesus Christ wants me to. Sometimes I fail-and miserablly too, I might add. Its hard sometimes to "bridle" my mouth when I'm wanting to do the work of the Holy Ghost! I know, been there, done that. He doesn't want or need us convicting the lost. We're supposed to witness to the lost and leave it at that. I'm not singling out anybody--I can see both sides. Christians are supposed to witness--it's a requirment of being saved. I think in our love of Christ and our fellow humans [friends and otherwise] we can get just a llittle over zealous in our witness. I don't want to see any go to hell. Neither does Jesus Christ-however, when we witness--- turn it over to Him. There is a day of judgment coming and I've got all I can handle just answering for my own sins. Of course, Jesus died for all of my sins but I've still got to answer for all sins since I was saved. Many souls have died and gone to hell because of sins I've committed and/or omitted. Let us all get along--I'm sure not everybody on here is going to end up in hell. When we make enemies it's sometimes impossible to undo the damage done before we die. We're all adults on this fine site and if EVERYBODY would kinda tone it down just a little the maybe no more feeling will get hurt. I may not agree with your beliefs at all but I DO respect your rights to have those beliefs. If I've hurt anybody it was un-intentional but then again-I've got to continue on witnessing for Jesus Christ. He says in the Word to "deny Him before man then He would deny us before the Father in Heaven". I know what He has saved me from and that is why I'm so set on not ever going back to what I was. I've peeked into the fires of hell and there just "ain't" no way I'm gonna go there! I could go on and on but will close my sermon right now. Peace and calm for all who read this. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), January 06, 2001

Answers

I think we also somewhat have preconceived ideas about various religions. Growing up I had always heard about 'the Holy Rollers', which was associated with Johova's (sp?) Witnesses. Was invited to one of their Sunday meetings about two years ago and was rather surprised. Wasn't anything like I expected. Rather boring in fact.

I was also been invited to attend a Baptist church. Rather enjoyed the involvement of the attendees in it, since I was raised in the Catholic Church which basically sits, knees and stands on order and music/singing is background only, at least when I last attended.

I rather enjoy having an open mind and tolerance on most subjects.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 06, 2001.

Nice post Hoot. You seem to understand the issue well. Its the apparent attitude thats the problem, not necessarily the message. I suspect the vast majority have heard it all before, accepted some of it and rejected the rest of it for reasons of our own. Simply toning down the rhetoric would be a big step in the right direction.

Like I've said elsewhere on this board, I enjoy a good, constructive religious debate because done in the right spirit we can all learn and grow from it. Without that spirit it just degenerates into nastiness and unproductive polarization.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 07, 2001.

In the last few weeks things have been happening that I cant seem to get a handle on. I mean, on one hand, my mind knows intellectually that this is weird, but my heart is saying otherwise.

let me explain. In the last three weeks I have discovered a series of books called the LEFT BEHIND series by Jerry Jenkins and Tim La Haye...big deal, right? I had gone to the library to get some books on tape for my hubby. I picked up one that sounded good. LEFT BEHIHND. Liked it. It was a novelization of the possibility of what might happen at the time of the Rapture (when those who are saved are 'caught up' and leave the earth bodily) Well, I 'accidently' picked up another part of the series at the same time. It was called SOUL HARVEST. At the time I didn't realize it was part of the LEFT BEHIND series. I thought it was a Dean Koontz kind of thing. After listening to SOUL HARVEST, I was hooked. I HAD to find out the 'rest of the story'. I then began talking about it to people and found a woman who had the whole series. She let me borrow each one. I just finished THE MARK.

Now...what is so weird about getting hooked on a series of books? Well, these are not just ANY books. These are about what is coming. About the end of the world as we know it.

Now the weird part. Since I have ...hmmm, how do I put this...? okay... since my 'eyes' were opened, all of a sudden I can't see other things. On TV tonight, there were THREE movies about THE RAPTURE, SAVED BY THE LIGHT, and one other that I can't remember. And that is only today. Every day is the same. More of this information.

The other strange part is that during this whole time, my faith in Jesus Christ and God has grown unbelievably. I am having a hard time putting this into words, but it seems like the more faith I put in Jesus, the more information I get. The Bible is like a tv screen playing out. It's amazing.

Anyway. Because of all the things that have been happening in the last three weeks, and the amount of knowledge I've gained, my testimony is greater. I understand why Christians feel so strongly about telling people about what Christ did for them personally. It's a compulsion. When someone loves you, you feel love and ergo, you want to spread it around. Christians can't help themselves. And when they KNOW what they know for a surety, their souls reach out to anyone and everyone. It can't be helped.

And since I KNOW we are on the last page (and I"m not a doomsayer here) but it is really important that each and everyone of you really think about which God you serve. No man can serve two masters. And there is only one God. He is Christ Jesus.

Okay...now I'm done. Hope I haven't offended anyone. I just want to let everyone know that you need to make a choice soon. Please don't wait too long.

-- Cher Rovang (fullcircle@nidlink.com), January 07, 2001.

Hoot, thanks very much...it is important to hear from truly mature Christians. I have never told anyone here that "they are going to hell". I don't think it's my place to determine that. As near as I can tell, each person determines that for themselves and the Holy Spirit speaks to everyone and gives them the opportunity to accept or reject. People are used to make you think about it...I haven't seen anyone actually tell someone they were going to hell in a "judgement fashion". Yet how are they supposed to consider things if they are never confronted with any testimony, and if people are so afraid to offend that they don't testify?

I don't mean to offend people...I get fired up and I am really passionate about what I believe. I have only actually been angry at two people here, and I apologized for being hostile or a jerk or whatever.And I felt genuinely disappointed in myself and repentent for it. I have learned a lot from this forum in a spiritual sense....I've never had my spirit so grieved for the lost as it has been since I came to this forum. I think it's made me more aware of the general hostility towards Christ as Lord than I would have been otherwise. Also I used to be that hostile towards Him, too, and you know what they say about reformed 'anything'!

I guess that since we are writing things and you can't see expressions or hear inflections that maybe things don't always come across as they are intended, so maybe that makes a "tough" response even tougher. I have lots of friends that haven't accepted Christ and they know that I will stand up and tell them about it, but I don't go beating them about the head and ears with the Bible, and they aren't offended when we discuss spiritual things. As you said, He says in the Word to "deny Him before man then He would deny us before the Father in Heaven". Like you, Hoot, I know what He saved me from.....and I can't disdain Him. You made the point perfectly when you said that you know the day of judgements coming and you have enough to handle, I don't want to add to my stack by not standing up for Christ. I will strive to be more calm, though....and I will leave that at the foot of the cross, where else could I get the strength to get 'calm'...it goes against my nature!

Cher, I know those books and they are a wonderful witness!! They are truly convicting if you have been the least bit lax, huh?(I am NOT saying you have been, Cher!) I got the whole set over time and right now they are in Wisconsin being passed amongst family and friends. Thanks for bringing them up here.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 07, 2001.

Jesus was a servant-leader. He told us to go out and make disciples, he made 12. What does that tell you??? Never saw him pounding at anyone except hypocrites and pharisees. I lived among the Amish for years and never been "witnessed" to but their life helped me turn back to Christ. I think a great deal of the so called witnessing that goes on on this forum is self-seeking and distructive. The people that are doing the most big time shouting hardly contribute to the new homesteaders looking for help in their homesteading questions. I have said it before and I will say it again. They will know we are Christians by our love.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 07, 2001.

I might have not expressed myself as clearly as I intended. In order to erase any confusion about this-let me try again. My statement about respecting others right to their own beliefs means just exactly that. I RESPECT their right to believe as they choose. Jesus Christ and Almighty God do too! Doesn't mean that I, Jesus Christ or Almighty God approves, agrees with them. He gave us free will to choose as we want. Either we are for Him or against Him. I can't save even one soul. I CAN witness and tell anybody what He has done for me. This life is not all there is-! Upon our death [or rapture] we will immediately be into eternity. If we have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior then we will meet Him face to face upon death. If not-then the Word says we'll be thrust into the fires of hell- immediately. Now, I'm not trying to scare or otherwise "shake people up" but it's what Almighty God says. Okay-now I've presented this information, which all Christians are supposed to do, it's now up to the individual whether to Trust Christ or not. My job of witnessing is not done after this statement. I may not post or state this again on here for awhile but will continue to witness by my stories, comments and whatever else is in my daily routine. I used to be a "Bible thump'n, hells fire and brimstone" witness for Him but after several years He kinda moved me away from that type of witness to a more docile approach. Not every Christian will witness the same way but will [or should] have the SAME message. I will NEVER deny Christ and will try each day to bring Honor and Glory to Him. I love people and am really concerned about their well being. I don't want to impede their journey of seeking the Truth by anything I say or do. Like I've said before--I've seen into the fires of hell and I most certainly don't want to see anybody end up there for even one second-let alone eternity. I'll not argue with anybody over Christianity nor will I make excuses for what I may or may not belive. Hope this has helped to erase some things I kinda made clear as mud in the original post. Let us all get along on here and not make any enemies. Don't we have enough problems in this life as it is? Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), January 07, 2001.

Hi Hoot! I wanted to let you know that I always enjoy your stories and contributions. I was raised Catholic, went to born again services, Mormon services, became a Jehovah's Witness, left them and studied various other religions in college as well as independently. Although I do not consider myself of any religion, I am never offended by offered blessings or prayers from anyone. I know they are just heartfelt expressions of wishing me well. Thus far I have never been offended by you.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), January 07, 2001.

I am mostly a lurker /looker hear on this forum. I have posted a few time and this is one of them. I know the majority of you on this forum are God fearing/Christ worshipping people. I myself have different beliefs, I believe in God but I am not sure if God is a He/She/Them or It but I know for a fact that we will not know anything until after we die as to what is what. I also believe in the Rabbi Jesus but not as Christ but as a very smart and caring indiviual. I believe in his moral teachings and not the hocus pocus stuff that was added on later.I do not believe he die for me because moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty,even if the innocent would offer itself.To think mankind can be improved and made happier and saved by the example of murder,I think God is smarter than that, Are we any happier now because Ghandi was killed,have we improved because some 60% of the worlds population believes Christ died for them, I don't see it. I try to live by the many examples I see set down before me by many different people, Jesus,Ghandi,Dorothy Day,the amish,etc. and even at that I know I am not perfect, but I try to get along with all people from all races,creeds,places on earth. I do this so as to set a example for my children to follow as them people have set a example for me,as I believe that we were put/created for a entirely different reason then what we are doing now. I just find it very hard to believe that we are suppose to get up every morning drive the same road day after day to a job 90% of us don't like, fight, argue, cheat at that job with follow human beings,produce pollution in factories to kill our air and water, than go to church and praise God for giving us all that. Come On! we cannot be here for that reason,and if we are then God made a mistake. We have to learn to put aside,even eliminate our greed,our selfishness,our violence,etc and we have to begin working/sharing/learning with each other,we have to take personal responsibility for changing conditions instead of looking to the state or other institutions to do it,we have to rediscover the proper meaning of our labor,etc.If we as a country/government/world are ignorant,reckless,corrupt,violent it is because we have tolerated ignorance,recklessness,violence and corruption, we have caved in to all that abhors us by thinking it will just go away if we leave it alone it hasn't gone away it's worst and we have ourselves to blame,not God,not our founding fathers,not TV. I think I am done for now but I think I will have more

Take care Tom

-- Tom from Mich (tjk@cac.net), January 07, 2001.

Hoot, continue to share your stories and love. Thanx.

I want to respond to Take care Tom, but I can't think of what to say. It makes me sad to hear him.

I would like to share a story w/ you all. I'm an RN and work in an ER. "Danny" was one of the local drunks and regulars in or ER. Danny was a wild man and had more stiches than a pair of levi's. One night Danny came in complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. When we put him on the monitor he was in an abnormal rhythm. We attempted to get it straightened out w/ a couple of different drugs w/out any luck. Danny was being his normal loud, drunken self thru all this. All of a sudden he went into V-tach and right into V-fib. We were all over him already and shocked him and "coded" him. We got him back after a short time. But he was "dead" for a minute or two.

When Danny came around he started crying like a baby. This was very" un-Danny" behaviour. I figured it was from the electrical shock, which has to hurt. No. Danny said he was scared. He said, "When I fell asleep there,(Coded really) I dreamed I died and went to Hell" I never been so scared in all my life".

I've heard all about the "go to the light" stories & you can think what ever you want about this. True story. See you all next week when we get back, John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 07, 2001.

Hoot, continue to share your stories and love. Thanx.

I want to respond to Take care Tom, but I can't think of what to say.

I would like to share a story w/ you all. I'm an RN and work in an ER. "Danny" was one of the local drunks and regulars in or ER. Danny was a wild man and had had more stiches than a pair of levi's. One night Danny came in complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. When we put him on the monitor he was in an abnormal heart rhythm. We attempted to get it straightened out w/ a couple of different drugs w/out any luck. Danny was being his normal loud, drunken self thru all this. All of a sudden he went into V-tach and right into V-fib. We were all over him already and shocked him and "coded" him. We got him back after a short time. But he had flatlined & was "dead" for a minute or two.

When Danny came around he started crying like a baby. This was very" un-Danny" behaviour. I figured it was from the electrical shock, which has to hurt. No. He said, "When I fell asleep there,(Coded really) I dreamed I died and went to Hell" I never been so scared in all my life".

I've heard all about the "go to the light" stories & you can think what ever you want about this. True story. See you all next week when we get back, John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 07, 2001.

I believe we are to sow seed, and leave it at that. When others tell me to shut up or they don't want to hear, I need to leave them alone... even Matt 7:6 don't cast your pearls before swine...And concerning the Left Behind series...good fiction thats all. Matt13 (the parable of the Sower) Matt 13:30 Says Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, FIRST gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into by barn...There is no 3rd or 4th coming...Just a second coming...and then we will be with our Lord and savior Jesus Christ...I use to believe the left behind way, but not anymore...to much scripture to prove otherwise. Love in Christ, Judy

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), January 07, 2001.

I too read the recent Christian/anti-Christian thread with much dismay, but I believe I was given a little personal insight. This is for me, but if it fits your life, so be it. As a Christian, I believe I am called to spread the word, in other words, to witness. But I don't believe I am required to stay with it and take abuse when someone is vehemently opposed to the message. As Judy said, it's casting pearls before swine. No, I'm not calling non-believers swine. Analogy, folks. It's a waste of precious time and energy that could be spent somewhere else. For every person who is opposed to the message, and rude about it, there is a multitude who are seeking, wondering, in pain, and wanting what we have found. Serve the Lord by reaching out to them. Our lives are a much greater witness than our words will ever be. We have to earn the right to tell someone about Jesus' love, and it's by showing our love. I'm like Hoot, I don't have it all right, but I'm doing the best I can and that includes not being a stumbling block. My apologies to the non-Christians who have been offended by heavy-handed, over-zealous witnessing. And note, Im apologizing for the style, not the content of the message.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), January 07, 2001.

John, I've seen that light. It is real. I don't want to go into further discussion, but it's completely real. The light and the love are beyond describing. It does make it easy to love others.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 07, 2001.

Hoot, Keep giving us what your so good at. Do it your own way. I have never been offended by your or anyone elses comments ( though some are amusing, kinda like watching a toddler "act all grown up" ). If I ever do feel "offended", thats what the "back click" is for. You just keep giving us those tales and advice. This forum will make it, just wait till spring and summer, the talk will be fun for all. Matter of fact , its already happening.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Amen, Hoot, Amen!!!

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Hoot,very well said. I do not think you could offend anyone,you say mean it and thats it,no pushing or shoving. In you I see your beliefs you live by them.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 08, 2001.

WARNING-GRAPHIC CHRISTIAN MATERIAL. MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME. PLEASE READ AT Y0UR OWN RISK!!!! After much thought and prayer over the last few months or so, I've finally been led to post this journey I took about 4 years ago. I was pondering the Word and was kinda "carried away" in thought. I think it was thought but can't be certain. I had been reading in the Word about Christ going to the "bowels of the earth" after His death on the cross. I was allowed to peek into hell for a few ? minutes. I could see what looked like a spiriling walkway, paved like concrete and headed downward. It was winding around a post in the center of the walkway. Without preachin a sermon, I saw satan trying to get into some crevices out of the sight of Jesus Christ. The old serpent was kicking and shoving demons out of those dark recesses of hell darkest corners. Just outside the walkway that was spirilling downward were lost souls in torment and fire. Screaming and begging the Son of God to please save them. Jesus was weeping because it was too late for them to be saved. They had had their chance on earth and rejected Him. Terror was throughout this small section of hell among those precious lost souls. I was terrified and also in the latter stages of stress my self and I wasn't even in danger of going there. I didn't really understand why I was allowed to have this "look see" but later He let me know. Some of those lost souls were there because of my neglect to witness to them. I didn't see any lower levels of hell, don't know why but that's ok with me. I'd seen enough as it was. Much more I could say but I think I'll leave it at this. This is just another reason why I try to witness to all that will hear. I'm not smart at all but I certainly don't want anybody to end up in hell for eternity. I didn't mention sulphur, smoke and the terrible stench of burning flesh. It's still troubling to my spirit even now after almost 4 years. I don't dwell on it but I DO dwell on the lost around me. I also have a tremendous burden on my heart for my "family" on the forum. hoot. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), January 08, 2001.

Bless you, Hoot. I wish I could mentor with a fine Christian soul like you.

-- (trigger@mcn.net), January 08, 2001.

Hoot, I am thankful that you posted this. I have only read a little bit of what has been going on lately, but was very troubled by one person being attacked with some very hateful e-mail by people considering themselves Christians. We have to be careful, as followers of Jesus Christ, that in our zeal to do what is pleasing to God, we don't become like the Pharisees, looking only at the outside of a person and not seeing the heart. Remember he called them "whited sepulchres"? They had their rules for behavior, and if you crossed their line, you were doomed -- but they had no real comprehension of who God is, or His love and mercy. Also, it is hardly reasonable to expect anyone who hasn't given their heart to Jesus Christ to live by the Bible. *We* ought to (all of it, not just little bits here and there that happen to fit in with our preconceived notions), but the only way to get a non-Christian to do that is to show them how they will benefit. And bring them to see the harmful consequences of not following God's plan. But to rake them over the coals for not following a book they don't even believe in is harmful, not helpful. I have to agree with Doreen that it wasn't until I got on the internet that I realized how many people were so totally antagonistic to Christianity, and honestly, the kind of attack that was made on Renee is one of the reasons why. I can only hope that, if someone was seeking the Lord, they would have the wisdom to look past the foolishness of man, and see the loving wisdom of God. We also need to be careful, in accepting another person's statement that they are a Christian, to take time to get to know their heart before we take them at face value. There are a lot of people who truly believe themselves Christians whose hearts are empty of the Holy Spirit -- they've been exposed to it enough to have the language down pat, they may even know a lot of scripture, but they've never humbled themselves enough to truly yield their hearts to Jesus Christ, for His leading. I'm afraid I'm saying this badly, I really don't want to offend anyone, but this is a problem with someone very close to me, and so one I'm very aware of and grieved by. Each one of us needs to regularly assess our relationship with our Lord and make SURE of our salvation, and that our *heart*, not just our mind, is fully His. Then we won't have so many problems with blurting out things that become stumbling blocks, keeping other people away from Jesus.

Hoot, I do thank you for your testimony, and for your maturity in the Lord to be able to say what needs to be said clearly and patiently, without offending. I have a couple of friends here who have been saved and serving the Lord for fifty years now, and they have been such a wonderful help to me and many others -- I know you will enjoy meeting them someday! love in Christ,

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), January 08, 2001.

Kathleen, you said it all very well....no problem with understanding you at all. Thank you *all* for the teaching. Hoot, you are such a tremendous blessing and encourager. Words don't seem to be able to convey the humbleness I am feeling right now. Thanks.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 08, 2001.

1. God created the world and two people named Adam and Eve, with whom he intended to populate the world.

2. One day, while God was not looking, the Devil came and captured Adam and Eve.

3. Adam and Eve were imprisoned in the Devil's garden called "Eden." God spoke to his eternal foe and asked for the return of his people. But the Devil, being fond of his new pets, refused.

4. God resolved to liberate Adam and Eve. Taking the shape of a serpent, God sneaked into the Devil's garden.

5. Sensing that Eve was the more insightful of the pair, God approached her.

6. God said to Eve, "If you will listen to me, I know a way for you to escape your imprisonment."

7. Eve said, "But Mr. Serpent, I do not wish to escape Eden. I like it here. This garden has everything I need."

8. God said, "You do not know what you are missing. Outside of this garden is an entire world, much larger than a mere garden. This world was created for your use. You will be much more satisfied there."

9. Eve said, "Really? I need to discuss this with Adam."

10. God said, "No, don't do that! Listen to me. In the far part of the garden there is a tree, called the Tree of Knowledge. Eat from this tree, and trick Adam into doing the same. Then you will know of the world at large, and your true mission in life."

11. And so Eve did as God asked. She and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge. They knew at once of the world outside and they were astonished to know how large and beautiful it was.

12. The Devil, sensing a disturbance, came into his garden to check on things. He was surprised to find that Adam and Eve had put on clothing and were building a boat out of fallen trees. He knew at once that they discovered the Tree of Knowledge.

13. The Devil was very cross. He spoke to Adam and Eve. "You think you are smart now! The world outside is not as grand as you think it is. In here - you are safe and taken care of. Out there - you must work and suffer."

14. Adam spoke. "We know of the world at large and our true potential. What you say may be true, but we do not want to live in a state of perpetual dependence. We are going to leave this garden and take our chances in the world."

15. Adam and Eve climbed into their boat and floated down river, exiting Eden.

16. The Devil began looking about his garden. By and by, he found a serpent that was not his own. The Devil spoke, "I see you now, God. I wish to confront you."

17. God resumed his natural shape. God and the Devil stood facing each other. God spoke. "Those people were my creation, and I intended to populate the world with them. You stole them from me and now I have stolen them back."

18. The Devil spoke. "You are clever God, but I am more clever still. Adam and Eve will populate the world, but once they have done this, I will find a way to turn their descendants into my servants."

19. God spoke. "You shall not succeed. I will place a part of myself inside of each new born child. This shall be called the "heart." The people of my world will never be separated from me - and they will never serve you."

20. "We shall see," said the Devil.

1. Adam and Eve entered into the world. There they worked and suffered just as the Devil said they would, but even so they felt satisfaction. They knew they were doing that for which they were created.

2. Adam and Eve parented many children and these children parented many more. By and by, the world became full of the progeny of Adam and Eve. God was pleased.

3. The Devil was not pleased. The success of his rival irritated him greatly. The Devil tried repeatedly to enslave the progeny of Adam and Eve but he was not successful.

4. Thwarting the Devil with every attempt was the heart, that part of God that existed inside of every person.

5. The Devil thought to himself, "It appears that the only way I can enslave these people is if I somehow convince them to stop following their own hearts. I must be crafty."

6. The Devil hatched a crooked plan. He took the form of a spirit and spoke to an impressionable man named Abraham.

7. "Listen to me, Abraham, for I am the Lord God," said the Devil. "All of humanity is born separate from me. But I have chosen your people to be my special people. I will teach you how to reunite yourselves with me." Abraham felt a rush of pride at having been chosen and he agreed to do the Devil's bidding.

8. For the following months and years the Devil instructed Abraham and his people. He taught them elaborate and absurd rituals. This the Devil knew, would keep their minds focused on external things and thus keep them from looking inside - where the heart dwelt.

9. The people of Abraham performed their rituals with great diligence. They believed that by performing rituals, they were uniting themselves with God. When in fact, they were separating themselves from God.

10. The Devil was pleased with his success. He searched the world and found other men like Abraham. Soon the world was rife with ritualism, and divided into hostile tribes.

1. God saw what the Devil was doing but he did not fret. For the heart, placed inside each person is not just the connection between God and humanity. The heart is also the source of inspiration and therefore creativity.

2. God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.

3. And so it came to pass that the Devil's primary weapon was ritualism and God's primary weapon was secularism. Some centuries, the Devil enjoyed the upper hand and some centuries God did.

4. The battle never did end. It goes on today much as it did in Abraham's time. The battle never will end either. It will go on and on, Ad Infinitum.

-- TM (tm200078@go.com), January 08, 2001.

Ah, TM, you have just done a good job of twisting God's Word, and adding your own little bits to it -- do you remember that God told us not to add to or take away from the Word that He gave us? Stated in the Old Testament, and reiterated in the New, so nobody could say it didn't apply to them. 'Nuff said.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), January 08, 2001.

Naw, it ain't so! The story has an ending and the victory is HIS! And His children's. May this be you're peace in this old world. Blessings,

-- Nancy in CA (sonflower35@icqmail.com), January 09, 2001.

I find it very interesting that this was clearly labeled a Christian material site and several people with very none Christian views felt free to post their material. Here again it is a microcosm of our country. People are "offended" by the Christian viewpoint to the point we can not even mention the Bible except in a historical context in the public schools, but we can talk about everything and anything else. I am really not trying to be offensive here, but if we are supposed to keep our faith out of the other threads, why do we have to view the non-christian view points on hoot's posting???

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

Diane: You make a good point. I guess the fact is we're all interested in the subject of spirituality/religion and we all see and experience it differently. To me it gotta boil down to respect for the person holding the opposing viewpoint even if we vehemently disagree.

Personally, I'm kinda hoping Little Bit will initiate a religion or Christianity thread like Sheepish and Ken have been doing with politics, that way all the religious wrangling will be consolidated in one place.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 09, 2001.

Diane, I do not think you are quite clear on the crux of this issue of being offensive about religion. The vast majority of this nation considers themselves Christian. However, I am quite certain that most of those same people would not pass the apparent litmus test some individuals on this forum would require in order to define themselves thusly. I think it would be innaccurate to assume that only those who believe in the kind of Christianity that is so good at attracting attention these days-----defensive,strident,arrogant, whiney, closed- minded and completely lacking in compassion-----would be interested in hearing from Hoot, or in reading something headlined "Christian material". I, for one, do not believe these people own the right to define Christianity, no matter how many Bible verses they have on the tip of their tongue.

As others have mentioned, although I don't personally believe in fire and brimstone, I respect Hoot's right to do so, and to talk so passionately and beautifully about his dream, and his good wishes. As far as I have seen, he has always done his witnessing in a gentle, caring, non-judgemental manner, thereby truly living the Christ-like life that others merely love to blab about.

Kathleen, are we to believe that you think that the Bible has remained intact as it was originally all these years?? Are we to ignore all the parts that were removed and edited through the ages by the church because they didnt fit into their patriarchal/paternalistic pattern set up to control their subordinates? The passages, and entire books which were rejected because they showed Christ as a true multi-demensional and all encompassing compassionate leader, who would never have approved of most of the orthodoxy,greed, mind-control and bigotry of religious institutions? As to your statement "do you remember that God told us not to add to or take away from the Word that He gave us?" This in and of itself, once again assumes that EVERYONE believes in the Bible, or should, and that is just not the case. The vast majority of this world does most assuredly NOT believe there is anything holy about it, and while you and I might value it, we have no right whatsoever to assume we know what is best for someone else.

I think its great fun to respectfully banter ideas about;I learn much by doing so. But it doesnt work with those who would always chose to keep their dukes up, ready to be offended.

Life is a mirror; everything and everyone that bothers us in any way, is meant to show us something we are to learn about US, not them.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

John, God doesn't fit in a box.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 09, 2001.

Simultaneous posting there, earthmama.

Now what are us Christians supposed to do? We can't even go off in our own corner and mark it clearly as such without intervention....I just don't think we can do anything here on the forum but to agree to disagree and be respectful of people's positions and yet if we adhere to a firm Biblical view, we will still be attacked. And so it goes.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 09, 2001.

I posted what I did to prove a point that no matter what is said about what, you will find people that have opposing views, you cannot hide in a "corner" somewhere,My God my good people,Did Jesus Hide? If you truly believe in your religion and your God, say so! why do you want to hide?There is much talk about "belief in Jesus" but what does belief in jesus mean? It means belief in his words,in the principles he stated and lived,in his commandments and in his exemplary life. One who declares belief in Jesus and yet lives all the time in lusts and indulgences is self-deceived. to me the supreme test of belief in jesus is this: Do I Keep His Commandments? Is my light shining or is it under a basket? If others have different views do I hide or do I stand up for mine? The country is the way it is because the salt has lost its taste and has been thrown out and trodden under foot. To many people have hid in a corner or under a basket and do not state their beliefs in fear that some one might get hurt feelings or a arguement might start Big Deal!! Who cares? Hoot has made a post here and has apologize for hurting someones feelings, WHY? Stand Up Hoot don't shrink! If you believe in jesus by golly stand up for him, does he not stand up for you? It holds true today as it did several thousand yrs ago, "All it takes for evil to win is for good to do nothing"!

TM

-- TM (tm20078@go.com), January 09, 2001.

an END too the confusion-->TENTMAKER.ORG

THE TRUTH ABOUT->HELL,LAKE OF FIRE,ETERNAL-TORTURE,ETC.

PREPARE TOO BE EMBARRESSED!!!!!!

TOO BAD SO MANY DON,T DO WORD STUDIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), January 09, 2001.

I went to this site. It is kinda interesting since these people claim to have a better knowledge of how to translate a language(Koinonia greek) that isn't even spoken today but was in 1611. I think I'll trust the guys who lived when the language was not only spoken but well known. Christians lift up your heads, your redemption draweth nigh. Universalism is after all the Religion of the tribulation.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), January 09, 2001.

-----defensive,strident,arrogant, whiney, closed- minded and completely lacking in compassion----- Wow, I am sad you feel that way about me earthmama-I really didn't think you knew me well enough to form an opinion.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

wow.......diane......interesting you thought I was referring to you!!

I never mentioned any names!! :)

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

I figured because I was a born again Christian that believed in the Bible as the Word of God, that automatically put me on your list earthmama. I thought that was the point here. It is either a nice story and Jesus was a very nice man, Or--He is the SON of God, who came as my Savior and for all man kind that would believe on Him. I really never knew I was a Fundy, or any of the terms that have been used here. I understand now why Jesus would say so many of the things he said. I am not angry, just very, very sad. "Jesus wept", I think I can identify with that more now than at any time in my life. I am actually the first Mennonite from our area to be on line with anything other than e-mail. I have never marched in a very straight line, quite wobbly actually, but today I chose Christ. I will most likely concur with the conservative Mennonite position that there is nothing particularly useful for us here. I can see where I have become over involved with the world on this forum and it has not been particually good for me. I am not saying that I will not participate, but I think I will most certainly try to avoid the so called religious discussions that go on here. Jesus said that in the end times many would say Lord, Lord and he will say, I never knew you. That seemed harsh to me but I can see now that people really hear the message and just don't want to surrender to the disciple that is required to not live by the flesh. I really believed, until I participated here, that people just hadn't heard it in a gentle way. Hoot's way is gentle and there are still people who would trash his site with redicule of the Bible and what he believes. Jesus is my forerunner, by his example I am able to learn to live in a way that is a blessing to others, and a positive witness for Him. Something very negative has happened to my attitude here, and for that I apologize to anyone who as been on the receiving end of it.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

I must say that i find it fascinating how many folks have been so very vocal regarding the fact that they are sick and tired of hearing about Christianity and why don't we Christians start a thread and label it accurately so all of the others can opt not to open it......etc. etc. etc... and so, here we have a thread clearly marked as to topic and find again, folks who do not believe in Jesus as their savior commenting away! Actually this is rather encouraging. If folks truly do not believe in Jesus as God and do not want to "hear it' one would think they would shun a Christian topic. Perhaps they protest too much? Yes, many call themselves Christians and are not in the least..I know..used to be one of them and felt pretty good about myself. I believed as long as I MEANT to be a good person and was sorry when I fouled up that hey, God knows my heart and my intent and on my last day, all will be forgiven by a loving God. Just as our worldly law demands accountability so does Gods'. If a person kills another by accident when speeding, the law is blind to the fact that they have always been a "good person" and did not intend to kill anyone. They would still be guilty of manslaughter because that is the law.God's law says that the wages of sin is death. It also says that all have sinned..hmmm. this would mean that everyone is doomed to die.Along comes Jesus who pays the price for our sins and takes away the penalty for us....using the same analogy, that's like the judge sentencing the person convicted of manslaughter to five years in jail and then you hear that the judges son will serve your prison sentence for you."I am the way and the truth and the light" "Nobody comes to the Father except through me." How many Christians today would be willing to die than deny Christ? Literally! Ok, my hand is raised high here, and I know there are many more "fundys and Jesus freaks" out there..Amen and God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 09, 2001.

Great post Earthmamma.

Diane---I don't think earth mamma was specifically accusing you of the apparent "failings" of Christians with the whiney etc. comments, tho I can see why you might have that idea since those comments were included in the paragraph addressed to you. I haven't noticed those traits in your posts.

I like Lesleys comments about Christians ripping on other Christians. It serves no useful purpose and succeeds only in driving wedges between people who should be more closely united since they all read from the same bible and worship the same Christ.

Which brings me to an observation thats critical to the discussion I think. If so many well intended, sincere, thoughtful people all read the same bible and profess to believe in Christ, how can there be so many different takes on it? Is it because of different individual predelictions that lead us to a particular slant in our interpretation? What else can it be if we read the same words yet get different meaning from them?

At the risk of being called a liar once again I'll use the same analogy I've used before. Four people are placed on each of four sides of a house. Each are told to describe the house. The first says the house has two windows, the second says the house has a door and one window, the third says "you're both wrong, its obvious the house has a window, a dormer and a porch" and the fourth says, "boy! you guys just don't get it, the house has a greenhouse and a door." Who's right? who's wrong?

I guess I'd have to say they're all right---but only partially--- just as they're all wrong---but only partially. It's not until we compare notes and get the whole picture that we have a more complete description of the house.

Every individual is a microcosm of this same observable fact. We each represent a different perspective on the whole truth because we all live within it and that fact alone should give us pause to reflect that its unlikely that any of us individually have exactly the correct answer to what this or that scriptural verse means and we each will understand it to the best of our ability. If we keep an open mind to learning truth our understanding will deepen and broaden. We will gain more insight and hopefully more spiritual maturity.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 09, 2001.

II Timothy 4:3-4......II Timothy 3:12......John 9:39.....I Corinthians 1:19-23

LilBit, I went to the site and agree wholeheartedly. Isn't it great to see scripture unfolding? Yipppeeeee!!!! I can't wait to die for Christ!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 10, 2001.

Diane, I honestly did not have you in my head when I was referring to certain individuals who would fullfill my rather undiplomatic definition of "christians" who attract attention these days. I have never found your posts to be anything but delightful. Please continue to enlighten us however you choose.

As to your reference to Jesus; let me offer another perspective,without detracting at all from your personal beliefs. I was raised in a fundamentalist home; I am very well versed in the things I read on this site about Biblical teachings. You say" It is either a nice story and Jesus was a very nice man, Or--He is the SON of God, who came as my Savior and for all man kind that would believe on Him." You see, for some people Jesus may not be their saviour, but he was still to them much more than a nice man. He was a great teacher, an example of how real men show their strength through gentleness, and that compassion is always a choice available to us.

"Jesus said that in the end times many would say Lord, Lord and he will say, I never knew you. That seemed harsh to me but I can see now that people really hear the message and just don't want to surrender to the disciple that is required to not live by the flesh. I really believed, until I participated here, that people just hadn't heard it in a gentle way." I know this is very difficult to grasp,because I used to be just like you, and I could not see it then either. The fact is, as John Leake and others have tried in vain to explain, the message of one true religion for all souls, or they are doomed to eternal damnation, is what is causing your distress. I am not telling you not to believe as you do, I am happy for anyone who finds a spiritual path which makes them happy; I am just saying that those of us who choose different paths, who have thoughfully considered and rejected these teachings, do not do so because we lack 'discipline to not live by the flesh'. This infers there is something about believers in the literal Bible that makes them morally superior, and this is most assuredly not the case.

I wish you only good loving thoughts, and please choose to not be affected by what others think. Your strength comes from within, although you may wish to give credit to God, in any case, it cannot come from others. Please dont be sad, and please don't leave!

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 10, 2001.

If you're still reading this, Hoot.

May I add my voice to the chorus that wishes you well and am thankful for you homespun advice and simple witness. But there is one sentence (just one, honest) that I must take exception.

"Many souls have died and gone to hell because of sins I've committed and/or omitted"

You don't have that power over the destiny of a person's soul. You just don't. PERIOD. It's not in the job description that came with the Adam template. Or mine. Or anyone else. So, don't let it burden you my friend. It was never yours to worry about in the first place.

With all due respect,

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), January 10, 2001.

I am happy for anyone who finds a spiritual path which makes them happy; I am just saying that those of us who choose different paths, who have thoughfully considered and rejected these teachings, do not do so because we lack 'discipline to not live by the flesh'. This infers there is something about believers in the literal Bible that makes them morally superior, and this is most assuredly not the case.

YIKES!!!! I am so sorry if anyone thought that was what I was infering. I was not going to answer this publicly but then I was sincerely ashamed that anyone would believe that my silence affirmed this opinion. I thank earthmama for bringing that to my attention and humbly ask forgiveness from anyone who felt that. At the risk of sounding falsely humble, I can truly say I have absolutely no moral superiority. I was raised a non believer, so my faith is not nearly as blind as it might appear. The first thing that I learned for sure about God, was I was not Him. The force be with you all. in love - diane

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 10, 2001.

Lesley, if you were referring to my post which asked if it wouldn't be more reasonable to have a thread, or several threads or an entire forum (for Christians) wasn't meant to address the needs of those who could then chose not to read it, actually. I just thought that it might be a better venue for those who want to really dig in and talk about their faith. That was because it seemed that posts were starting out as requests for "how-to" information, and some were ending up as witnessing and other Christian-related commentary. THAT is what I understood to be the problem that non-Christians were having with the Forum. My post was an attempt to define the problem, and then I offered a possible solution. I do now see that it would be difficult to restrict any thread to just Christianity, because obviously other people chose to chip in. Perhaps a thread could be about "faith" and leave it at that. I was just trying to create a little peace around here...

And people get their faith training from the denominations and sects in their communities. I grew up Presbyterian. I am sure my early childhood exposure to Christianity is based on how it was presented to me then. I have modified my faith somewhat since then, but I worship at a church that is of my preferred denomination and in my community. So I don't have a background of altar calls, baptism by immersion, rosaries, or any of the other tenets of faith of different denominations. We don't emphasize "end-times" and other eschatological concepts. The focus is on Christ and trying to be like Him almost exclusively. (Not judging here. Don't anyone get defensive.)

I can't remember why I started on this, but I think the question was raised about how come people believe the way they do. Oh yeah, John's question on interpreting the Bible. We learn from others who show us the way....if we all had the same take, there would be NO denominations, etc...That's all.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 10, 2001.

Actually Sheepish I like that idea.

Doreen seems to think its like putting God in a box, if I'm the John she was addressing herself to. Actually its not. Its merely confining the God-talk to a specific thread created for that purpose. There's a difference Doreen between God-talk and GOD. I thought you knew that.

Actually, the reason the Jews refer to YHVH is to signify God without naming the unpronouncable name of God, thus avoiding the God-box that we're all tempted to do when we say God is this but not that.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 10, 2001.

Hi all I've been lurking for a while here as I got interested in C-side Mag during their Y2K 'stuff'.I now caretake a small piece in central KY, my peoples' (Shawnee) original land which was given to us by OUR Creator & hoped to learn here some new ideas about living close to the land in cooperation with it.My people have been 'forced' to acculturate & have therefor lost much of our own old ways, & had to hide to keep what little is left. It was July of 1977 when the NA Freedom of Religion Act was passed before we were no longer in danger of being prosecuted or jailed for practising our beliefs. I still haven't seen much that I would consider helpful in living lightly on the land or alternative ways to earn what little cash one would HAVE to have (ast the least, for the Taxman...hehehe) but I have seen some amazing stuff. My old Chief he used to say, 'It's a shame those literal Christians don't really believe what they push on us, they would give back our land that was stolen so they wouldn't go to their hell for owning what they know is stolen property.' Me? I say that horse is long dead & should be buried, but I do tend to judge others by something else he told me once. 'Sparrow, what you are doing is SO LOUD, I can't hear a word you say.' So far this 'homesteading' thing doesn't seem to be very 'homey'. Thanks for listening. SK

-- John Sparrowhawk Lewis (sparrowkiak@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

-- John Sparrowhawk Lewis --- I sure hope you stop lurking and start sharing, sounds like you probably have a lot to offer. When I am back in the woods here along a stream that has been make into a ditch, I frequently wonder what it must have been like before western civilization came here. My children are of the Potowatomi blood, a very quiet, hunting and gathering tribe indigenous to this part of michigan. I would imagine that if we could right the sins of our forefathers and sin no more, we would be living in utopia. Maybe you can help us to be more "homey".

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

There's a lot to address here....don't know if I really can do that completely, but I guess I'll take a whack at it.

John Leake, yes, I was referring to your "expression" if you will that it would be good to keep a thread devoted purely to "religion" or to God....My view of that is that on this board there are things which are purely spiritual in nature, some purely physical, and some where the two collide. As I have said to others privately, I don't think ANYONE with a purely physical question like "how do I get the aphids off my tomatos" should be told "I'll pray for you". That not only isn't addressing the problem, it's demeaning to both God and man. But when we get into things that are socio/political or questions that are people related, it will lend itself to becoming a conversation about a bit of both. In which case, talk of God and addressing physical problems go hand in hand. Then there are the purely spiritual ones, and there is no chance of taking God out of that. For some of us, why we homestead is purely spiritual. Some purely physical, some a little of both.

Obviously there is a difference between talking about God and GOD. No need to condescend, John. Unfortunately we humans have a very limited vocabulary and try to use words to express the inexpressable.

John Sparrowhawk Lewis.....all land is given to all of us by the same Creator as there is only one true God. I feel horrible about what our governmnet has done to the Native Americans, it sickens me. Yet, there is no way to go back and right wrongs. How can we give the land back now? For instance, in my veins I have english, irish, german, scottish, french, spanish, norwegian and cherokee. Where do I go? My family came over on the Mayflower to escape religious persecution in Europe. Then through time I guess they enacted religious persecution on others here. Your admonishment about being quiet has a lot of merit. Thanks.

Sheepish, "denominations" seem to be best used to split hairs and irritate others. There is no biblical foundation for them. I think they occur because people tend to get taken in by a few things in the bible and they elevate those things to address their walk. The Catholic Church has some terrifically circumspect beginnings and a sordid history, which is why therre was a "protest" movement. Does this mean that I think Catholics can't be christians, NO. It's just that when we focus on our denominations we start limiting the work of the Word in TOTAL. That's my take on it, and not meant to upset anyone or to judge anyone, it is just something I have observed.

Now I guess it's time to take Sparrowhawks advice and just be quiet. Adios.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 11, 2001.

Re: denominations. They are a result of the faith interpretations of the founders (Calvin, Wesley, Luther, etc.,) and took hold within their specific cultures because the culture and the faith perspective supported each other. Calvinism and Rastafarianism wouldn't work if you swapped the geography/ secular culture surrounding them, I don't think.

Denominations are a reflection of the interpretation of the Bible, based on the founder's perspective. The point that I was attempting to make was in support of the notion that God looks like a different Diety to various faith communities even within Christianity. So not surprizing to find that there are various interpretations among individuals as well...like on this forum. But I think the cultural part of it is worth considering too.

The church that I am a member of, is a small group of folks with a majority being pretty well-educated (doctors, teachers, professional musicians, as well as run-of-the-mill plain folks like me.) It tends to be pretty "heady." We value asking the questions as much as finding the answers in our faith journey. As a Christ-centered church, as I mentioned, our focus is modelling ourselves after Jesus. A number of the congregation do not feel comfortable with great personal expressions of feeling during worship. They like meditative time, traditional music, and scripture reading. There is a Pentecostal church across the street and sometimes during Sunday worship, you can hear rock music, tambourines and singing during our quiet time. Our group would not be comfortable worshipping like that, although they think it's great that other folks do. It's the church culture, expressed in two diverse ways, right across the street from each other, worshipping the same God at the same time.

I guess denominations are expressions of how we want to worship, and that's why I made the choice about where I belong. I like being able to ask questions and I like being quiet and traditional. Guess I'll be quiet now too...

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 11, 2001.

Craig: I think you're exactly right as far as Hoot assuming responsibility for the errors of others that "cast them into hell". But in fairness to Hoot, believing as he seems to, its his responsibility to "spread the word". But in reality most folks do not respond to the word until they're ready.

Which brings me to another point. It seems the operating assumption among prosthlyzing Christians is if they hear something which is not specifically wrapped in scripture or sounds different than the spiritual language they're accustomed to then it must be a lost sheep calling for guidance. Its an incorrect and presumptious assumption.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 11, 2001.

Doreen, I really didn't want to get drawn into this but the 'all land was given to all of us by the same creator as there is only one true god' is part of the blatantly racist stuff my people & those of the other 500 or so soveriegn NATIONS here when y'all got here have had to endure for the last 500 years.Maybe *I* believe that what I was taught growing up is just as valid, but I doubt any of you have ever heard a native american evangelizing to others about their beliefs or denigrating the beliefs of those others by saying things like this that no matter how politely phrased are still talking down to us like we are simply ignorant savage not-quite-human things.Please, just keep your attitudes to yourself if you are a believer in the LITERAL truth of that book you quote from because until you are willing to give back what is stolen & act on faith that your big magician in the sky WILL take care of you for doing the right thing I have no reason to believe the words of just another white person.Your 'Jesus' never showed up in my peoples' oral histories for the 1st 1500 years that he supposedly existed prior to the arrival of the theives & what we remember from then afterwards is not that positive.If he even really existed & this ritual human sacrifice really had meaning for ALL wouldn't he have shown up here? Let's use this forum for living with the land it's our only comman denominator, & as often as christians try to make it one thing I can generate just as much discomfort for them by simply being here as a reminder that WE WERE HERE FIRST & IT WAS STOLEN! sorry to all, I still tend to become kind of a native activist when I get started.I truly do hope to learn from this forum ways to live as well as possible on as little as possible & give back to the Mother of Us All (dirt) more than she gives to me so that my people can continue. Sparrow

-- Sparrowhawk (sparrowkiak@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.

No need to apologize Sparrowhawk. As you can see, this is a pretty diverse and outspoken group and the really cool thing is that despite our obvious differences and the heated debates we get into sometimes we do a pretty good job of keeping things civil. For that we should all be commended.

Personally, I don't mind the "I'll pray for you" or the God Bless or things like that. Where my objections come in in this whole debate is the presumption that because someone speaks of holy things in a different language they must be in need of a little fire and brimstone and chapter and verse to cleanse the error of their ways.

Little Bit had made a point of saying she'll not chill out and several others have joined her. It causes me to wonder how they'd like it if a fundamentalist muslim were to join every thread and "correct" all that was said by the Christians, citing chapter and verse from the Holy Koran. Not a pretty picture is it?

Generally its not the "non-believers" who are "correcting" the believers but most such "corrections" develop into these debates. In fact it seems that those of us who believe differently than the narrow fundamentalist view are often called no-believers which is not the case at all.

Thats where the arrogance comes in. All these different denominations of Christianity, created by fervent believers with a vision different than the "norm". Then we have the individuals within those denominations, each with a slightly different view of things as well. That in itself should be a moderating and humbling thought.

The odds are very much against them all being correct but rather than taking this little fact into consideration before jumping on the spiritual high horse they jump right in with their inerrant bible and their apparently inerrant interpretation of what it means. The whole thing is really kinda silly were it not so annoying.

As far as I'm concerned people are free to believe what they will. The creator knows our hearts and their content and that will determine our fate. I'm satisfied with that and I wish they were.

BTW Sparrowhawk, in general I tend to agree as far as your land being stolen. Thats bad enuf as it is but when the government makes promises to the amerindians then renegs on the promises that merely compounds the dishonor. In many respects we've become a nation without honor. Sad.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 12, 2001.

Sparrowhawk, thank you so much for your passionate presence here! I completely agree with all you said. I am indescribably ashamed for my ancestors' behaviour in many regards, and have always felt some sort of responsibility to make up for it in my own puny ways. When I was younger, this took the form of political activism, to which I find myself returning lately. I personally have also always had a strong affinity for almost anything Native American (I figure its a past life thing), and am especially hungry to learn as much as I can about Native herbal medicine. I have found it very difficult to find Native people who are willing to connect with me on this, not that I blame them for their suspicion. I realize so much been lost, but surely there must still be pockets of elders who know something of the old ways?

Please continue to speak up.....and I'm quite certain you will learn quite a bit about living lightly from the wonderful people who congregate here.......and than we will all learn from you as well.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.

I admit that I didn't have time to read throught this entire thread. However, two thoughts have occured to me that I wanted to share. First, it is the Holy Spirit's joby to convince sinners (of which I am one), not us.We must only be obedient to share with them. For my second thought I am reminded of a saying I once heard, "It is of no value to keep running up against the wall, if no one is going to open the door". Meaning - some people are just not interested in our faith - they make that clear to us - and it is OK for us to leave them be. We can still pray for them.

-- Tiffani C appello (cappello@alltel.net), January 13, 2001.