the USDA has finally allowed organic-farming a foot in the door!! it,s called [green-farming] all-natural--from ground up!! we are what we eat[physically] please check=out the organic farms on web-------your family,s health depends on it!!

I don,t know about you, but I,M tired of eating [chemically-loaded foods]---i,m goung 100% organic-and so will my critters! *fresh air--fresh food--clean water=less diseases*

support the farmers who are making the move back too =natural!!

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

Answers

Hey al, I'd be glad to.

Um, where are they?

Last time I checked all we can buy is chemical based crap from the grocery store.

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

Organic-farming is what has brought e-coli to our tables. They use natural fertilizers which include the maneur which has not been "sterialized" which kills e-coli and other dangerouse bacteria.

There is a reason we went to chemicals for preservation and other methosd to protect us, because the "natural" way was making people sick and killing some.

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

WELL CHERRI, if you want to ingest chemicals/hormones/disease from nasty feeds[where they use dead animals with tumors & pick up from dog pounds] too mix in feeds to increase protien==GOOD LUCK!!

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

al-d:

There are worse things than those you have mentioned.

A little story. Last winter I bought a sealed package of roasted corn kernals from one of the countries largest organic producers [no names please]. They were lost in the back of the pantry. I cleaned the pantry this weekend and found them. There were no recognizable kernals left. The sealed bag was one large mass of Aspergillus flavus. Glowed like mad under UV.

Yes, there are worse things than chemicals and hormones. Learn to say aflatoxin. It will soon roll off of your tongue.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

Z, too each his own huh! how in the world do those silly natives survive=eating =live unprocessed food???

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

al-d:

Z, too each his own huh! how in the world do those silly natives survive=eating =live unprocessed food???

You will need to define your terms. Silly natives????

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

al-d:

I am not against organic food, I am just realistic. Botulism was prevalent during my parents life. There was a need to develop safe preservatives.

Personally, when I get my own little homestead, I will use natural fertilizer, but none that contains the waste of animals. I have a coffee can I put coffee grounds and egg shells into which go on my compost pile. That pile is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to growing my veggies. I use manu nu (manure) (as my kids labeled it), but only sterilized animal waste. I just want people to understand that there are drawbacks to organic farming and we need to be careful in our enthusiasm. Come on buddy, everything isn't all black and white, all one way or all the other. There are shades of gray in which most things fall.

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

al, not all those "silly natives" did survive. Depending on the locale of the tribe in question, during the "growing season", they'd harvest just what they needed for that day's meal(s) -- this is why some crops were planted on a "staggered"-type schedule. Same with the "hunting season" (not that they were "planted", mind you [g]). But for the most part, they cooked/preserved their food right after the main harvest/hunt. They had to store for the "winter" or "lean" months, and they had an entire tribe to feed. Their methods worked quite well, considering the lack of technology.

But that was on a rather small scale (feeding a tribe) compared to today's mass production (feeding a quarter of a billion Americans, plus what we export).

Also look at the early 1900s as an example: "Food shopping" would be done on an almost daily basis. (I'm thinking back to the street markets in NYC.) You needed butter, milk, eggs, fruit, meat, whatever ..... you bought it that AM to serve that PM. And there WERE a lot of food-related illnesses in those days. Heh, even in the 1960s growing up in Brooklyn, we still had the "milk man" in his little truck; delivered a few bottles like every other day (and the bottles were -- GASP! -- glass).

My Dad spent the early part of his life growing up on a farm in Italy. His Mother would gather what she needed for the day's meals that morning, including the "chicken", if that was the evening meal (Dad told me stories ..... I can't even relate them; it's as if I was THERE).

I still saw this routine amongst the Asian immigrants in my old neighborhood in Brooklyn. For the most part, they do their food shopping (mainly produce, dairy and meat) on a daily basis, buying just what they need for that day's meal(s). I'm sure it's the same in many other immigrant communities, probably because that's what they're accustomed to.

One of the things I love about my annual trips down to Mexico is the fact that, in general, they DON'T know what "processed food" is. I go to Mazatlan, which is predominantly a fishing village on the Pacific Coast. What I eat that night (and I LOVE seafood), they caught that AM. And you can go down to the docks and purchase the seafood as it comes off the boat (which you can also do in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn........ah, memories). Their fruits and vegetables, after being properly cleaned, are just the tastiest I've ever eaten. (And I can buy much of it in a local mercado here, so that's a big plus!)

As to "organic", some things you have to watch for are:

1. Not all produce, etc., labeled as "organic" really IS "organic". Unless you know/trust the grower/producer, I'd be leery.

2. "Organic" produce (not sure about anything else) has been found, in several studies, to either have the same or less nutrient content than "non-organic" produce (saw that report a few months ago; sorry, don't remember where). And "nutrient content" is what has been touted as a main reasoning to go to "organic" produce.

3. Depending on how you were raised, you may not be able to tolerate "organic" or "natural" or "whole grains". I have terrible (life-threatening, in some instances) food allergies to whole grains. I CAN'T eat that stuff, or it could kill me. Whether or not that's a result of growing up on the processed stuff, I have no way of knowing. I just know what *is* right now, and I damn sure take that into consideration when I shop.

It's nice to "go back to the land" and "move back too =natural", but you really have to be careful about what you're feeding yourself. "*fresh air--fresh food--clean water[does not always]=less diseases*".

About the only "organic" I think I'd eat is if I grew it myself. At least then I'd KNOW what it really was. (Of course, I can't even get stupid snapdragons to grow, yet I see them all over the stupid valley. I'm one of the reasons other people do things like "farming" for a living.)

Besides, we don't have many "farms" here in the desert; hell, I dont' think we have ANY "farms" here in the desert. A lot of ranches, though; A LOT of ranches. I miss my local fruit-and-vegetable markets, the roadside stands in northwestern NJ, the farmer's markets in Manhattan......... Most of our produce comes from either California or Mexico. (The tomatoes, unless I buy the ones "on-the-vine", no matter their origin, are simply horrible.)

I don't think anyone's trying to ridicule your stance on "organic", al; nor are they ridiculing "organic" per se. They're just trying to caution you about what you buy and from whom you buy it. You just need to take care. "Organic" is becoming a big scam these days, as many figured it would be. Some people just don't have a conscience; it's all about the "profits".

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

hmmmmm alway,s 2 sides too every coin huh? nothin perfect in this crazy-world. back too the books!! all I know is, the food now-a-aday,s--sure tastes different than what I remember as a kid[long-ago] thanks for your input!

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

For those of you that would support organic farming in total and do away with farming practices that are currently being used let me ask a few questions and than see how you respond. As pesticides have proven themselves as a deterrent against the incroachment of weeds and insects for the last 63 years, what do you replace them with and what results do you expect? Would you be prepared to except a minimum of 40% less food production within the first year with 5% increases per year after that? Would you be willing to give up half of your take home pay just to by food compared to the 17% you pay now? There're NO organic replacements for the current list of Herbicides that we use currently to control weeds such as Dogfennel, Henbit, Russian thistle, Canadian thistle, Gromwell, Pennyweed, Morning Glory, Ryegrass, Quackgrass, Knapweed. This is a short list that we deal with in Idaho. My 99 Crop Protection Reference book has 1859 weeds nation wide that are a threat to current production. Then you have the insecticide list that includes Aphids, Armyworms, Bollweevils, Lygus, Cutworm, Hessian fly, Grasshoppers, Thrip, Pea weevil. The full list is endless! Plant diseases include leaf spot, stem rot, blight, root rot, seed rot, dwarf smut, and this list goes on and on. In the Northwest alone, dryland 60 bushel wheat would be reduced to 25-35 bu. because we have test plot results in Washington and Idaho that have shown this to be the case when pesticides are removed and fertilizer amounts are only cut in half. There're a lot of things about organic farming the general public hasn't been told/1 I for one would rather not have to buy chemicals and fertilizer because it is the largest bill I pay as a grower in a pea, wheat, barley, lentil, bluegrass area. But I know what happens when you exclude them from the program. I wouldn't last very long and neither would you. I've gotten in this argument before and I, like many farmers feel it is a losing battle that we are fighting to try and inform the general public on this issue.

etch, Tarweed, Speedwell,

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

go ooooly, how ever did nature function without chemicals. and now we,re in the clone-zone!

all i know is a free-range chicken tastes alot different than a [manufactured] yukky grocery store corpse!!

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

"...yukky grocery store corpse..."

I think I just figured out what motivates a good many vegetarians ;-)

(That was quite descriptive, al.)

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

HI PATRICIA, YEEHAWWWWWWWWW

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

al-d, you asked a very good question about how did mothernature function without chemicals? She did very nicely in fact even thru the late thirties. Horses were even used to farm in the Northwest at that time and chemicals for pestilence warfare and fertilizer were barely on the horizon. But not much was expected of her or the farmer at that time in terms of yield and the ability to feed a nation was not a worrisome issue because of the population numbers. A 15 bushel wheat average seem to grind into enough flour to do the job. The insects were always their and we usually had enough even after they got done. The weeds weren't a worrisome issue then because most operators had a summerfallow rotation which allowed them to lay 1/3 to 1/2 their land bare one year to fight the weeds with a cultivator. This would be out of the question now simply because of the massive tonnage that needs to be produced each year to feed this country. So ya see, organic farming may paint an attractive picture that most would like to hang on their wall but it just doesn't make sense when you look at the whole picture. I wish I could explain it differently to you all but I just can't!

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

HI,BOSWELL. I GET THE PICTURE--I-GUESS IT BOILS DOWN TOO CHOICES!! SEEING THAT ONLY 5% ARE FARMING[MOSTLY CONTROLLED] BY CORPS. BUT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW THAT SEEK OUT ORGANIC [LITTLE GUY] FARM STANDS/MARKETS.=====CHOICES !!

IT,S UP TO CONSUMERS TOO DEMAND SAFE-FOOD.

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2001

AL-D, I agree with most of what you say, but you have to understand that for organic farming to increase their production dramatically to replace farming as we know it, they must find ways to combat insects and weeds at some level at which we do now. Some fruits and vegatables can be grown successfully without pest interference but you need to examine the HUGE list of those that are devastated by their competition. Part of that list includes corn, cotton, wheat, peas, beans. WE raise oats and chickpeas without spraying for insects because these are two varieties that aren't bothered, but they are an exception. As a matter of experiment and fact, chemicals that are used to combat weeds and insects aren't even carried into the molecular structure of what you eat, especially podded plants. If there're any residues to be found you need to look more closely at preservation and preparation of foods after they leave the combine. I am even troubled when I give that some thought!

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2001

Spent about 45 seconds scanning all these posts. Agriculture is in my family's past, bigtime. To the tune of some big bucks.

Attitude about this latest development -- "prove it."

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

"Prove" what, CL? al-d asks people to "support the farmers who are making the move back too =natural". The rest of us caution him on his choices of "organic".

So what's there to "prove"?

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

Chicken Little, you say that your family has been involved in Ag. extensively in the past. You and they are probably very aware of pest management and all it entails. Todays management costs compared to todays commodity prices certainly make you and I aware of were the big bucks eventually end up!

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

Boswell:

There is a nationwide dumbing down of the concept of agriculture. So many folks live in cities and they think that maize production is just dropping a few seeds in the ground and waiting for the profits to roll in. So called "Organic Farming" is a good idea for crops and areas where it will work. Spreading it to all of crop and animal production will require a very large investment in technology; which doesn't seem likely at the moment.

It reminds me of an experience. We had this one grower who decided to grow organic sweet corn [in the middle of a sweet corn growing area]. No insecticides. He did well and got a premium price. Seeing this, a number of his neighbors followed suit. They were wiped out by Stewart's wilt. Obviously, chemical control of adjacent fields had protected his crop during the first year.

This is a complicated field and can't be reduced to a few quips in some Green publication.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

Thank you very much Z! It's nice to know that someone else is out there that understands.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

I thought that it was an al-d misspelling. Maybe.

Concience

Maybe not. A google search will give you lots of info.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

An interesting and fun thread, gee AL-D! I myself like a mix of organic and commericial food. Organically grown tomatoes out of a backyard garden instead of those hybrid or biotech flavorless never rotting tomato wannabe's :)

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

Z, you said,

There were no recognizable kernals left. The sealed bag was one large mass of Aspergillus flavus.

No kidding? That is an eye-opener. I wonder if we'll start seeing ergot poisoning again too with "back to nature" methods becoming popular.

Frank

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2001

On the subject of animal waste being used as fertilizer. DONT WORRY ABOUT IT! My family homesteaded in Idaho in 1902 and I am 3rd generation. We have had a garden every year since and have always used animal manure if you want to call it that. I call it cow shit and chicken shit but it all comes out the same. We've applied it in the fall, spring, and while the crop is growing. Nobody has ever gotten sick or given it a second thought! If you pile it deep and let it set for 12 months, let it ferment, and get a strong ammonia smell it works great. Works better than commercal anhydrous ammonia gas or ammonium nitrate dry before we seed. They say pig manure works better but you have to have your garden at least 200 yards from the house. Too many people nowadays spend too much time worring about too many things because they have too much free time on their hands.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2001