The other day I was talking to a guy I've known for 12 or 13 yrs. He was sharing some of his earlier life with me.

I've known his folks casually for 30 some years. His dad had been a logger all of his life. In fact he'd build his logging endeavors up to the point where he had a couple skidders, a forest harvester and a semi. along with a crew of 10-12 guys. Along with that came alot of big time debt and eventually trouble with the IRS. He was a hard living, hard drinking kind of guy. When drunk he'd be sociable and civil enuf to society in general but a first class B-----d to his family. There were constant yelling and physical fights at home and more than a little abusive behavior toward the kids.

My buddy, when he turned 18, beat the crap out of his dad. Basically enuf was enuf. "No more drinking dad and no more fighting or there'll be more of the same from me" was the gist of his message.

Since that day his dad hasn't had a drop to drink and there's no more fighting, yelling etc at the home front. His folks live a quiet life. They're no longer in the logging business and they're still paying the IRS off. Father and son have a renewed relationship which is good to see.

On the other hand, my buddy, who's now in his early 30's, still bears the scars of an abused child. He's a very hardworking guy but shows some of the classic signs of depression. His house is a hovel. He drinks and still uses drugs. And he's very mercenary---money seems to be the driving force in his life and he'd screw you in a heart beat if he thot he could get away with it. He's spent time in jail for driving and drug related offenses as well as assault.

All this leads me to thinking about the use of force. Generally I tend to think of myself as a pacifistic anarchist. "Live and let live", "If it harm no other, do as thou wilt" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." are pretty much the rules for my life.

Now it could be that Dad would have eventually seen the light and gotten control of his drinking---or not. But that was not the case. Considering the results of the beating you might say it was a good thing. Its undeniable that it got the job done. Was force justified? Knowing the results in hindsight its easy to say yes it was but it could have turned out quite differently. The cops could have been brought into the picture. Guns might have been brought into the picture, or a number of other possibilities.

If you had had the opportunity to counsel my buddy before his decision to wail on pop what would you have told him?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 11, 2001

Answers

Like you, I am usually a pacifist....but in this situation it appears the beating did some good....but I really wonder how.

The scars will still remain...did the son really get any satisfaction out of beating the dad up?

One thing too, if the parent really changes and a family goes through counseling and really strives to get their lives back together, is it right for a child to come back all through their adult lives and blame every thing bad that happens to them in life on what the abusive parent did? i.e. Writing $4000 in bad checks and claiming its the parent's fault. Not holding a job and claiming its the parents fault. etc. When does each individual began being responsible for their own destiny and their own ACTIONS?

This is a complex situation.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

Boy, this is a really tough one John. I usually do not share very private things for general consumption, but feel it may help here with some understanding of this issue you raised. hmmm, leaving out a lot of details, by the time I was 10 years old, I had endured a level of abuse from my Dad that reached felony levels. In those days, (1958), nobody did much about those things. One day, weighing about 80 pounds, I went bleeding to the kitchen and picked up my mother's cast iron frying pan. I came back to the living room swinging it at my six-foot four father and told him if he ever laid a hand on me again, I would kill him dead in his tracks. I recall that as if it were last week instead of 42 years ago. Would I have carried out my threat? Oh yes.From that day on, he never came near me, so I guess I made a believer out of him. Violence begets violence. I recall feeling so incredibly powerful at that moment I felt 100% invincible....ready to leap tall buildings in a single bound.I had stood up for myself, drawn a line in the sand, and was ready to follow through to the bitter end. I now believe that there is not much difference between the feelings I had and the feelings of power that an abuser has.Different reasons, but the same feelings of unlimited power and authority. That's scary. My childhood made me a very strong adult. It identified me as a person who would always fight intellectually for the unwanted and abused in our society. That is why I love working with inmates and drug addicts, many of whom come from abusive backgrounds. I would have told your buddy that rather than confront violence with violence, if he were old enough to leave the house and be on his own, that would be preferable to retaliating physically against his father. The feelings of vengance and power only get transferred from the abuser to the abused. God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 11, 2001.

Maybe the father thought he "needed" that beating. He wanted someone to care enough to stop him. That happens. Also, he could have thought he "deserved" it. That happens, especially to women who live with an abuser or alcoholic.

I'm not a pacifist, but I have learned the rewards of a calmer spirit. I've had to fight so hard, incredibly hard for certain things- not physically, that I would defend them-physically- to the death if I had to. Most of those things are gone by now, so I probably won't have to worry about them.

Turning the other cheek is good, but you only have two.

What would I have told your buddy? Get you and your family out and let your dad hit bottom, it's his choice. If he ends up in jail, then he ends up in jail.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

This has nothing to do with force, abuse, or spanking, this all has to do with alcholism. He may not be abusive to his children, but he is also continuing the behavior of drug addiction. Beer, Wine, Pot, Cocaine, Heroine, it is all the same, addiction is addiction. The only counseling that could possibly help your buddy is for him to commit to a life of abstinence from drug abuse. AA or any of the other 12 step programs, where he puts God infront of himself and his needs. In a counseling program he will soon find out that he turned out just like the person he despised the most, his DAD! The lessons our parents teach us are usually learned very well. Be very careful what you teach your kids, the old saying "Do as I say, not as I do" is rarely the lesson learned. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

Vicki, very well said. What you said is so true. The person you hate, controls your life. Addiction is addiction and it can be to anything, anything at all, not just chemicals. And an addict will defend to the death his addiction. Have you ever watched an alcoholic holding a can of beer? He doesn't just hold it, he caresses it. It's like being fat, the addiction/fat is your best friend, it won't leave you til you make it go. And of course it's everybody else's fault but your own. Sorry I may have gotten a little off course there.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

In a 12 step program, you are to give your will over to "A Higher Being" NOT necessarily God. Big difference.

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), January 11, 2001.

Thank you Laura, I should have been more clear. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

john, I have read your question several times and I guess I am unclear as to whether you were asking as to what was best for the dad or your friend. Since most recovery programs are based on the ability to admit you are powerless and that you have a problem, his belief that his "beating" of his father caused him to change would make it very hard to admit powerlessness. Adult child issues really complicate recovery, even when the physical abuse was not there. just my 2 cents worth.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

John, Your friend is still fighting the ghosts of his childhood. When you grow up with disfuntionale parents with money problems you think I WILL NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN TO ME, having some money put aside becomes very important![ your friend has taken it to the extreme]. Alcoholism runs in familys and vicki is right your friend has become his dad.Any dependncy [ drugs, alcohole, gambling ect]. is so hard on the kids. My mom and stepdad are alcoholics and I even pulled a knife on my step dad when he threatened me in a druncken rage once. Thought I had put my ghosts behind me when I moved out and had a normal life but 12 years latter watching a play when the actor displays a drunk in a rage I had to leave.Your friend needs some type of counseling to change his distructive habits.And In this case I think the use of force just added to the mental baggage of your friend.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), January 11, 2001.

"Dad hits Mom; Mom hits the kids; the kids kick the dog, and each other.............and so on and so on. Adult children of alcoholics. Yes! There is a name for this! My advice to your friend is: Run, don't walk to an AA or Alanon meeting. Good luck, and God Bless.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), January 11, 2001.

Another scenario: I read of a woman who, after being beaten by her husband for the first time, waited til he had fallen asleep. She then found the biggest knife she could get her hand around, and took it to the bedroom, where she placed the tip of the weapon just under her husband's chin. Keeping the knife in that position, she shook him awake, and explained to him that if he ever touched her again, she would kill him while he slept. He never touched her again. Alcoholism or not, addictions or not, abusive past or not, some people are just bullies, and they need a taste of their own medicine to prompt them to change. My own mother was physically abusive, and she finally stopped when I was twelve years old and hit her back one time. I hate a bully, and have no problem with victims of abuse retaliating.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), January 11, 2001.

Hi John~ I can't believe after one day on the forum i am responding to a post like this, but here are my 2 cents worth.

I am 32 years old and i relate to Lesley's post so very well. I recall staying in a hotel on a trip (funny i don't remember where to). The couple in the room next to ours started a violent fight. I went to the door asking if everything was ok. The woman answered and was terrible bloody and beaten. I ran to the front desk and had them call the police. I don't recall what happened after that, because i was huddled in the corner for the remainder of the night. It never goes away completely. It is a cycle that has to be broken by everyone in the family. Not just the children, but the spouse as well.

In my case, my Father raised us firmly and that is how he was raised. Then enter alcohol, it was a whole new ball game then. I won't go into details, because it hurts me so, even to this day. I just want to say that we all deal with things differently. We all heal differently. What may work for me, may not for others. I am stronger as an adult, but i have never felt able to stand up for myself as easily as for others. I have stood up to my Father a total of 3 times and i remember vividly each episode.

You have to want to heal to be healed. My Father wasn't ready and I had to leave. My Mother always stayed. I couldn't understand it then, but i now know she did what she had to do. My brother will not drink and has to leave the room when the children really act up. He knows where his temper needs to be checked. I have and occasional glass of homemade wine or beer. I will never be an alcoholic! I made that promise a long time ago. My Sister could not control her life and married a drinker.

Should he have beaten his Father. Only he will know. I suspect perhaps more came into play after the beating. Maybe other's stood up then too. I only know that in life we make our own choices and mistakes. If i foul up it is me not my past that did it. One of my choices was to forgive my Father. He grew up like i did after all. As i am older now i can leave. A choice i didn't have then. Sure it doesn't help if you haven't learned values as a child, but you will find your way. I hope i didn't stray to far from the subject, but this man is in trouble. You can make it known that you are there the rest is up to him. I wish him well, it is not a life for anyone to suffer!

-- Shau Marie in WI (shau@centurytel.net), January 11, 2001.

Oh my God, was all that I could think while I read Lesley's account of taking a frying pan and threatening her abusive father with it - because that was me, exactly, at about 15. Luckily, my step-dad was away working, at the time I made the decision that if he ever hit any of us kids again that I would take the little miniature cast iron pan and tie it to my wrist with a thong so that he wouldn't be able to get it away from me and then I was going to just go for his knees (he had bad arthritis and, as I later found out, bone cancer). Once he was down, I would've done my best to kill him - a teen-age girl against a 6'5" Viet-Nam vet. I knew my odds at the time, and it didn't even phase me. Luckily for both of us, he found another woman and never came back. I am now mostly passivist, but I know that there is darkness in all of us that can be brought up like a beast in a swamp, and that sometimes it may be the only thing that saves our lives. Now that I'm an adult, I would never let myself get into that situation to begin with, but a child is stuck with whatever life hands them and I believe that that alone allows them a little more leniency in choosing what needs to be done for their own sake. Sometimes, there is no other real choice.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

Wow is right....The deal about alcoholics is that even though they ARE sick, the disease is contagious. I've had the distinct pleasure of wrestling a loaded gun from one alcoholic, wrestling a butcher knife from another, numerous other violent episodes.

As with most things that are really bad for you, after you let it happen once, it gets easier and easier to continue doing it.

My dad wasn't an alchoholic, but he had some issues let's say. I told him when I was 15 that he could hit me all he wanted it would never HURT again. He never hit me again. I forgive him for what he did, because he was a mess then as well. It did take time, though.

As for what I would have counseled him....I probably would have told him not to do it, to move and take evrything and everyone away from the abuse. But would that have fixed it???? I don't know. Forgiveness will heal this. Both for his father and for himself for beating his father. That's my opinion for all it's worth.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 11, 2001.

The force was justified.Many have found themselves in similar or worse situations.You do what you have to do to survive.Whether it is on the battlefield, or on the homefront.

He,and the rest should forgive themselves, for being human.And,it's good to know about the beast within,we all have it,some just don't think they do.Knowing is controlling.I know mine.

Nick's grandfather was a hard man-old country.Nick's dad came home from WW2 and found his mother on her knees scrubbing the floor while her husband sat drinking.He told his father if he ever saw his mother mistreated again,he would kill him.And he meant it.He never saw that again.He was the only kid of 8 to have the guts to stand up to the bully.He and his father had a stormy relationship,but he was there to protect his mother,til she died.

My brothers did not do the same.They should have.We are still dealing with it all.I can't begin to go into how it has impacted my family.I take it back,they finally confronted Dad, a few years ago.50+ years of hell,for mother,and us.It even filters down to the grandkids.After all the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree,as your friend found out.You learn what you see ,even if it is something you despise.I'm the mildest of the bunch and I have fought that demon,and for the most part,won,my whole life.Fortunately,none of us is as bad as my father,although my sister sometimes comes close.

The scars never heal,they just get a little better,when you can find a way of dealing with it.I am 46 years old and I am crying as I write this.See what I mean? And,I've even dealt with it pretty well,and have forgiven my father.The memory is always there,the key is to use it to keep you from going the same way.

And he didn't have the excuse of being a drunk.Just a spoiled,resentful,hotheaded man who had to rule the roost,his way.

Bullies understand only one language,might.

Most of what I learned in order to handle all this,I did working at a shelter for battered women.I heard stories that were almost unimmmaginable.When I thought I'd heard the worst there was to hear of what one human being could do to another,I would here even worse.I would not want to tell another soul some of the things I was told.

By the way,I really liked the job.You just couldn't do it long.It took alot out of you.

As a final note,Nick's dad slapped his mom once,when they were first married.She told him if he ever did that again,she would wait till he went to sleep, and beat him senseless with that infamous cast iron frying pan.He never tried it again and they were very happiliy married till he died.

And,I don't believe I wrote this.It is something I keep to myself, locked away.And now I'VE BLABbED IT ALL OVER THE NET.John,you started this.I may have to hunt you down with a frypan.Kidding!!!

But perhaps this will help someone else.And I think I'll print this off and send it to my siblings. Perhaps it will touch their hearts,too.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), January 11, 2001.

Thank you all so much for sharing what must be difficult experiences to remember.

As to my buddy and his dad---they really seem to get along well now. In fact the family is tighter than I've ever known them. These are country people, generally not too kindly disposed towards counseling and "system" solutions but as a family they seem to have dealt with things pretty well, all things considered.

On the other hand my buddy had to go thru anger management classes as a condition of his most recent probation. I considered it a positive sign that he confided this stuff to me in the first place as its not widely known. He tells me that even now, if he's around anyone who's yelling to make a point or arguing loudly he gets an immediate headache. I see him only rarely as we don't travel in the same circles but I care enuf to want to help him get his life on track. He's got alot more potential as a person than he himself realizes and I'm pretty certain he'd be happier with himself and in general if he were to put aside the "things of a child."

Regardless of the lumps we've taken as children ya'll are right--- we're each responsible for ourselves. Some have more baggage than others to deal with but deal with it we must.

If he gets in trouble with the law again, any time soon I'm afraid he'll likely be looking at prison and that would be such a waste.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 11, 2001.

I have a question. I mean no disrespect to anyone, I'm not condemning, judging, or anything else. Is alcoholism a disease or is calling it a disease just an excuse-for that matter any addiction?

My husband was delivered from alcoholism while he was in jail for battery against me. He was a severe and I mean a severe alcoholic. A binge drinker whose binges got closer and closer all the time. A case and a 5th a day. God kept him alive. He had internal bleeding and all kinds of problems, it was unbelievable. He didn't start hitting me until about the last year of his drinking. I had to have help calling the victims advocate, my friend did it for me. I had my husband arrested more than once. He tried to strangle me and had literally 4 eyes and a demonic voice. I walked away from him and he lost all strength, if I got closer he gained strength.

It eventually got to where he'd just slightly touch me and I would have him arrested, I didn't see any need for bruises. I called a woman's shelter and they said I didn't need them, so I ddidn't go. Anyway he finally got arrested and had to stay for 3 months and that's when he was saved. It's been over nine years now. His dad was also a severe alcholic.

My mom was an alcholic later in life. But she never missed work-cough cough) My step dad was an alcoholic but I never saw it cause I didn't live with them. My real dad died from nutritional cirrhosis, I never knew him. My brother was drinking heavy for a short while, but was able to stop. I'm allergic to alcohol. I can't get drunk but I could easily have a heart attack. So I don't drink at all.

I've been thinking about all this for quite a while and would appreciate your thoughts.

It seems to me that after looking at all these people and othr that are alcoholics, drug addict, etc. that the cause is bitterness, loneliness, and unforgiveness/hatred. I knew a druggie that searched for escape in drugs because he was horrendously embarrassed when he was a kid.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.

Cindy: Alcoholism IS a disease, researchers are actively looking for the gene. If you take a family and map out the number of folks who are alcoholics, a definite pattern emerges as with other inherited disorders.Try it with your family. For years, i have been doing an informal study of my own, using inmates who volunteer to participate. It appears to me that there is some correlation between the incidence of alcoholism and the incidence of allergies/asthma in families, as well as other autoimmune disorders such as thyroid disease and Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Alcoholics process alcohol differently from other folks..it sets up a demand cycle.A person does not need to be a drunk to be an alcoholic..you just NEED to have alcohol.The way to control the disease is to not ingest alcohol..AND...not to allow alcohol to enter the body in any fashion...for instance, look at a bottle of hand lotion and read the contents..many have alcohol in them. I have had several patients who were sober for years and then got a job where they came into contact with alcohol throught the skin (mechanics using an alcohol-based solvent to clean their hands)..all of a sudden they found themselves craving alcohol for the first time in years. I pray I will live long enough to see real scientific proof of a genetic component.Just as a diabetic cannot eat a hot-fudge sundae and control how their body metabolizes the glucose, an alcoholic cannot drink alcohol and control how their body processes it.The ONLY way to control this disease is not to allow alcohol into the body at all. God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 12, 2001.

Cindy, there has been a lot of research that shows that alcholics process alchol different that "normal folk". But, on the other hand, a lot of people have used the disease concept as an excuse to continue in a terrible way of life. Most of what I have seen is that in recovery it is not bad people trying to get good, but sick people trying to get well. It is also a disease that has as one of it's primary symptoms, denial- which compounds the problem. Help any??

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.

Thanks for the info, one more question. I have a friend who's husband is said to be a dry alcoholic, I've heard you can't be a dry alcoholic without having been actively drinking at one point. He hasn't. I've heard that a dry alcoholic is someone with all the symptoms-personality -wise of an alcoholic.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.

John, This is as interesting a thread as I've seen in a while. As for your original question, "Wailing" on the old man is an acceptable response to an abusive drunk. Most of us who have been either drunks (Me) or victims(My Family)know that a real drunk needs SOMETHING to get thru and get their attention. If an A** Kicking is what it takes....fine. I saw the look of terror in my oldest boys face & I hadn't even done anything. But He thought I was going to. I never physically abused my family. I didn't need to. I've got a razor for a tongue and used that. But, I was shamed by a little boy. And that's what started me on the road away from alcohol.

Yeah, busting the old mans head was ok. Now he (or you?) needs to deal w/ it and get it together. I see so much of this stuff at my job now it makes me sick. Heck, w/o alcohol I wouldn't have the job security I have now.

I don't have any tolerance for drunks either because DRINKING IS A CHOICE. I don't buy the disease theory. I do in my "medical mind", but not in my "Lived it mind". I know to many people who have made the choice and quit. God gave me the strenght to quit and stay quit. 6 years and counting. I'm not a "recovering alcoholic", I'm just done w/ it. I'm not belittling anyone who feels the need to use that reference. I just don't for myself.

I do find that in times of high stress, I dream of drinking and doing drugs and the rituals involved w/ doing drugs. I can even taste the drugs in my dreams(been over 15 years). I never have these dreams any other time. There is a connection I think. Sorry I got carried away. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 12, 2001.

You all are right.It is a disease, it is like allergies,and it is also a choice,because it is a 'cureable' disease.That is, the cure is to admit you can't drink and stay away from the alcohol.

And,like diabetes,or like my severe allergies,yeah,it's hard to avoid things that you really like, but it can be done,if you care enough about your family,and yourself.It's a struggle, but it's still a choice you make,once you've been 'diagnosed'.Either you choose the path to health or you choose to wreak it.

We have a good friend that is an alcholic.And he knows it.He's not stupid.When he's on the wagon, he's a really nice guy.When he falls off, you can't stand him.So he drives people away.His choice.

John-you are so right.Hateful words from someone you look to for guidance can be far more damaging than a beating.Someone on this forum said words don't hurt you.All I could think at the time was what you so clearly expressed.Thank you for your immense courage. And you have tremendous strenth.I know you can do anything you want.You survived trial by fire(water).Just wanted you to know what I thought.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), January 12, 2001.

John: Than you so much for sharing your story and I second Sharons sentiments in her last paragraph.

I think generally I agree with you. Some people require a harsh wake- up call and I guess that was it.

I'm not quite sure what the parenthetical (you?) is about so fwiw, I'm not hypothesizing my own situation. The story is exactly what its reported to be. My folks were tee-totalers and so am I. Always have been. No offense taken either btw.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 12, 2001.

Cindy, a dry alcoholic is called that because he has all the out of control behavior that an alcoholic does but is not drinking. In AA they call it a "dry drunk". Although I really admire people like John who can just put it down and be done with it without a recovery program, I was one who needed the support. I came from a family who rediculed me when I said I thought I had a problem with alcohol. I was passing on some pretty abusive parenting to my children because I had not the example I needed. I have been 18 years dry and clean, and I don't care whether it is a disease or not. I just know I can't do it and through the help of a loving Father, I have found a peace in my life, and a willingness to help others find it. In AA you really have to give it away to keep it. I guess it is just another one of those moral calls. For me until a was flat on my face, there was no way I was going to admit powerlessness. The Lord just managed to get me there before I distroyed my children. God bless all - diane

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 12, 2001.