If Mary is the mother of GOD, then my WIFE (after giving child)would in turn be the mother of her parents, right? (laughing) You catholics humor me with your twisted, and I might add, very thought out decieving ways.I have read many of these post, and yet most of the answers to alot of the questions are backed up by biblical references, which could be read into either one way or another.I find it difficult to believe that you can still persist on being catholics(laughing)I mean, when Christ was born, there where "wise men",right? So did these "wise men" say...hmmm I think Mary is now the mother of GOD(laughing) I think not. Is Mary now the god of Joseph?...noooo. Mary was nothing more than a person God chose to place his seed into to give birth to his son. Thats it! nothing more! Please! just read the bible, its not that hard to understand. You catholics listen to too many people(priests) that tell you what it is instead of reading and understanding it yourselves. But then, you do confess your sins to your father(the priest)(laughing again) Why not confess your sins to Jesus Christ? Like it says in the bible...I mean, thats why he was here in the first place. Your soul is your own, dont let another man decieve you. You catholics use what the bible teaches, but its twisted. Can't you read a simple family tree?

GOD-alpha and omega, the begining and the end, the allmighty! creator of everything. MARY-a woman that God chose to give birth to his son. JESUS CHRIST-son of God, that was placed on the earth so that man could confess his sins"through him" because he shed his life for us. YOU-man

Now tell me where Mary becomes the mother of God? If she is, in your view point, then wouldn't you find it difficult to accept a religeon that said "Joseph" is the father of "GOD"? Why not? (laughing) Thats it "Hail Joseph father of God"(laughing) catholics, catholics, catholics, use your brain that God gave you. Do you really think satan is gonna be stupid enough to be as far from christianity as possible? No, he is the biggest deciever of all. He knows the bible and the ways of God better than we do, lest you forget, he was an angel.So why not form a religeon that has all the right players, but mix it up to decieve? ...thats what he has done..i.e the catholic religeon. Look, i'm not picking on you or trying to start an argument, its just plain as day...Read the bible abide by its commandments and lets rejoice in heaven when its all said and done.

-- mark (m_j510@yahoo.com), January 22, 2001

Answers

Mark if you become Christian and believe that Christ is God the second person of the Trinity who became Man. this will make a lot more sense to you. It is difficult to grasp when one does not believe in the Divinity of the son of Mary.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), January 22, 2001.

mark (laughing),

I'm curious here, do you expect people to be more thoughtful in their answers to you than you were in your post? If so, why?

If not, why post at all, what do you expect to learn (laughing)?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 22, 2001.

Mark:

You have a propensity for laughter! You enjoy laughing a lot, particularly at the expense of Our Blessed Mother. I hope this sense of humour serves you well when you come before your God and you realize He is related to my Mother, Mary! Additionally, I hope He has a sense of humour as well, for your sake! Mary is mentioned approximatly fifty times in the New Testament of my Bible, no small signifcant amount for a lady who is merely "a person God chose to place his seed into..." It's a pity you obviously have never heard of Danté's Inferno, a classic piece of literature wherein Danté, an Italian poet, who some consider to be the father of the Italian language, wrote a beautiful poem in three large volumes. He wrote about this imaginary journey, this imaginary voyage he took into hell, purgatory and heaven. In this voyage he describes what he encountered, what he witnessed in these three different places. Near the end, when he enters heaven, he encounters Mary (as you too will one day) and Mary introduces Danté, this famous poet, to the beatific vision, the culmination of our lives. Danté uses one line in this poem to describe Mary. He calls Mary the “daughter of your Son!” Just one line, “daughter of your Son”. When I became aware of what that line meant I jumped for joy, and even now, after many years, although I cannot understand it all, every time I say it, it blows my mind. He poses the same question you, in your "finite" wisdom and humour have just posed. How can you be the daughter of your son? If you are the mother of your son, how can you be the daughter? It’s only in Mary that this happens, because she was created by Jesus the Christ. She is the daughter of God, just like we are the children, the sons and daughters of God. Mary is the mother of the one who made her. Mystery of Mysteries! Mark, I would caution you not to be too quick to ridicule that which you don’t understand.

God bless,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 22, 2001.

This is the simple, *tactful*, matter-of-fact answer.

Jesus (being one of the Trinity) is God. Jesus passed through Mary's birth canal to enter the world. Mary is therefore therefore the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Go

-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 22, 2001.

In addition, Jesus is of the Davidic line through his adoptive father, Joseph. In Jewish law, that works. If Joseph was not Jesus' father (posing similar problems as you are having with Mary) than Davidic-line prophesy is nullified. I don't think either of of like where that would leave u

-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 22, 2001.

(LAUGHING)!!!As I thought, nothing but side stepped answers. and to you that say I am here to learn, well, actually you are here to learn from me...I am the teacher of the true word of god. If you want to answer my questions, then answer them, and don't ASSUME anything about me.I have met devout aethiest that can support their beliefs "to the point" and with more credible ansewrs. To try and use "purgatory as a threat....well purgatory is nothing but a farce made up by the catholic religeon...now hell on the other hand is a different story. Yet you show your ignorance of the bible by quoting references from other books that have no issue to the point...... Now I repeat! Mary is not the mother of God, and if you can prove it then you would have to also admit that "joseph is the father of God.

-- mark (m_j510@yahoo.com), January 22, 2001.

Your question was "How is Mary the mother of GOD?" even though God creater *her.* Right? I thought my answer was pretty simple. It shows how a creature God created then gave birth to Jesus (God). Where is the question? I think we're confusing birth with creation. Mary did not *create* the Son, no one is saying that she did. But she gave birth to Him so he could carry out his mission on earth...making her His mother. This is not a tangle of theology. Whose body did Jesus (God) come out of? That person is His mother (but not His creator).

And as a side-note Purgatory *is* scriptural. Although five hundred years of protestantism have thoughtfully hacked that book out of the Bible along with six others. That is like me demanding you prove an afterlife exists and handing you only the Pentateuch! There's a reason the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, angels, or demons: They didn't read *a

-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 22, 2001.

*all* the text!

(sorry, it keeps cutting off my endings)

....................

-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 22, 2001.

Mark, you're speaking from severely limited knowledge. This, combined with zero research, zero study and intellectual dishonesty makes you a rotten judge of these matters.

We don't know how Mary is the Mother of God. Just as YOU don't know why you grew from a little baby to a (so-called) grownup. But we know God revealed it. The Holy Bible is not supposed to give you the inside dope and blueprints for a Virgin Birth, or for the Mother of God's Son. You aren't supposed to know. If you doubt it, go tell God. He's the One that said so; it's good enough for me.

This is a forum where we discuss faith. You want to laugh at faith; it's funny to people like you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 22, 2001.

St. James, pray for us (including Mark).
Immaculate Heart of Mary, beloved mother of God, pray for us (including Mark).

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 22, 2001.

Please dont blaspheme me by having your god mary take prayers for you in my sake. MY GOD IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA THE BEGINING AND THE END I do not nor will ever adhere to a god made up by fools.I am here as I said not to start an argument, but thats obviously what you like to do. But I am here to show you the truth and free you from the bonds of satan. and as I said before, not one of you can justify in any way that mary is the mother of god...god being my god , not the god of satan.

-- mark (M_J510@YAHOO.COM), January 23, 2001.

Here is Mark J510 on another thread-- He went ballistic on the Dare All Of You thread, when I called him idiot. He calls us fools.

Mark still never answered a simple question that I asked:

DO YOU LOVE GOD ?

He forgot. What's the question again? Mark; Is that your final answer? Duh!

**************

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 23, 2001.

Mark,

As I have said before I am not catholic either, I'm not quite protestant also. I too do not believe that Mary is actually the mother of God. To me Mary the flesh means nothing to my getting to the kingdom of heaven. The woman could have been Betty or Chakita it really doesn't concern me, but that is my oppinion. Here is how I understand the title "Mary Mother of God" concerning the catholic view point. They first assume that Jesus is God. Can you understand that? If Jesus is God then simply Mary could be called his mother, right? and then you get "Mary the Mother of God". I can understand why they think this, it is very logical. Now for someone to worship her as above God then that would be wrong, and most here I believe would say that they do not.

My view is much different, but I won't discuss it right now, maybe latter.

-- Israel (notofthis@world.com), January 24, 2001.

"... most here I believe would say that they do not."

... most???
No, not most.
ALL.

God bless you

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 24, 2001.

MARK......PEOPLE LIKE U ARE USELESS WHY DO YOU EVEN BOTHER MAKING A OUTRIGHT IDIOT OF YOURSELF.....MARY WAS CONCIEVED BY THE FATHER OF ALL THINGS CREATED MAKING HER THE MOTHER OF ALL THINGS CREATED.....WHEN YOUR DAD CONCIEVED YOU WITH YOU MOTHER HE IS THE FATHER OF YOU AND SOLEY YOU....YOUR MOTHER IS THE MOTHER OF YOU AND SOLEY YOU.....WHY YOUR PARENTS DIDNT JUST GET RID OF YOU AT BIRTH IS AN ANWSER EVEN GOD HIMSELF DOESNT KNOW......HOW CAN YOU BE SUCH AN OUTRIGHT NARROWMINDED IDIOT AND EVEN MORESO MAKE IT PUBLIC KNOWLEGDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

-- BAYLISS (COPENHAGEN_SINCE_1783@HOTMAIL.COM), July 15, 2001.

+JMJ

Mark,

"... Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." James 4:9-10

You are trying to exalt yourself before us with your arrogance and mockery.

"Even in laughter the heart may be sad, and the end of joy may be sorrow." Proverbs 14:13

The thin veil of your laughter cannot conceal your troubled heart.

May Christ give you peace and understanding.

-- Michael (Williams007@aol.com), July 16, 2001.

Cutting through all the biblical references etc and staying at a theological/philosophical level I truely do not follow how some of the postings I have just read use logic so illogically. Yes God created Mary and Mary created Jesus but this is the start of a dual debate. How do you refer to creatinal inheritance. Is it biological? In which case Mark is probably on the right track. Or is it by God and go along the whole 'it doesn't matter who our parent is, the only true father and mother is god'? The latter seems to me to be where Catholicism come from and base their arguement tentatively on this illogical concept of a holy trinity. This concept cannot be agreed upon by scholars throughout the world and if you ask yourself what the holy ghost is you will probably come acroper unless you take a wonderously ignorant 'leap of faith'. The trinity is a human creation after the events of Jesus. At no point did Jesus say worship me, in fact he requested people to do the exact opposite. He said that he is NOT god but is just passing on gods word; consistent with the ancient hebrew writings of the messiah. The messiah is a messenger NOT an equal. Jesus sits upon Gods side not in the same chair? By raising him up to this position Catholicism has demonised his teachings and strayed away from what is explicitly taught in the original texts. Do not worship me (Jesus) It in effect reduces to idol worship, an old Pagan worship, that was explicitly forbidden by Moses in the commandments. Therefore God is the father of Mary and Jesus, Mary is the mother of Jesus (the biological one) and Jesus is the SON of god; NOT god himself! Examine this piece of logic and see how organised Catholicism has warped what was a pure and good faith into its own sub-sect religion of which the pope exclusively maintains dominance over a relationship with god that is just crap! He has a relationship with us all not just that pompous old prat! By Catholicisms standards the pope is the sole messenger of god-the equivalent was Jesus-Trinity places Jesus as God-THE POPE IS GOD! A dangerous and very wrong concept of faith if I have ever observed one. Us humans, fallible by nature, placing ourselves in a position of infallibility simply because he has direct communion with the lord. What if the lord speaks to me but tells me something different than what organised Catholocism says. Do you see where I am going. Keep your personal faith, believe in God the one and only and live well and without establishmental confusion!

-- RYAN (ryanhartley@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

Mark:
You were here before, many months back, I think. You did a hate-piece then; and now you follow up on a very old thread for the repeat hate-piece. We forgive you, Mark.

Mainly we forgive you because you're harmless. The plain as day fact is, you live in ignorance and darkness. If God had enlightened your life, you wouldn't say the things you said here. Your human pride would submit itself to divine revelation.

You see, no Catholic ever invented the Mother of God, nor gave this truth to the world. It had no human origin, it came from HIM. No human being named Peter the leader of the Church, her Pastor, or Shepherd. Jesus Christ did so. Our humility in the presence of Peter and his legitimate successors has led Catholics to address him as Father, or Papa; from which the word Pope comes. This is also the work of God, throught the Holy Spirit. Due to your overweening pride, you've agreed with the devil, rejecting the urging of the Holy Spirit.

You ought to remember that the devil and his angels were guilty of the very sin you commit here: PRIDE. All of them were cast into the abyss for the sin of Pride; and you are preparing yourself for the same descent into the abyss, coming here to bait Catholics. Thank you for coming. Thank you for the abusive post here; it shows more about your own lack of faith than any accusation of our own would. All of us know many lurkers see these pages; and they need for people like you to expose their bigotry. It's a special favor God grants them; to show how far from His grace anti-Catholics are retreating. Because you display NO Christian charity.

Without charity, LOVE-- you can't support your claim to being a follower of Christ. Your uncharitable posting here then, has exposed you to all who read your words. Exposed by your own words as an enemy of the truth. Catholics here have no need to combat your evil intentions. You destroy your own credibility by showing yourself mean-spirited, Mark.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2001.

I'm sorry, Ryan! Did I call you Mark? Of course--You are a late-comer; and you likely agree with Mark. Making you about as bad; so I'll let my previous post stand as it is. If there's something in it you'd care to deny or rebut, you're welcome to try.

Mark, Ryan-- for both of you-- take out your spite on us here. We are followers of jesus Christ. If they treated the Master this way; how much more so His servants?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2001.

You don't seem to be able to be able to open your mind to new concepts and are the archetypal religious person. Your type of blind faith can so easily develop into what has been observed throughout history; fanaticism,intolerance and bigotry. Pride is NOT something to be ashamed of. Arrogance is but pride is not. Without personal pride we can understand what we do as right or wrong. Can we take pride in what the lord says is right? If I feel pride is that the so called holy spirit doing gods will through me? You follow Jesus. He didn't want to be followed! He was a mouthpiece for God not God himself! I also am not religious, at the moment Atheist, perhaps moving towards agnosticism, but this detachment allows me to observe religions affects from the sidelines. God gave you a mind to think with. He gave you a soul to look after and then gave you free will to exercise this relationship how you want. Without questioning your beliefs you don't actually know them and will fall foul to anyone with another well founded arguement since you lack the ability to defend your own. That is unless you stick your head in the sand and ignore it! Blind faith is not a reflection of the gifts that God gave you. Reasoned faith is.

-- RYAN (ryanhartley@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Oh and i dont need your forgivesness. You don't have that right do you. People like me are necessary to keep an equilibrium between established doctrine and personal faith.

-- RYAN (ryanhartley@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

RYAN,

You have me thoroughly confused. As one who claims to be an atheist (now leaning towards agnosticism), who are you to be teaching us about God the Trinity. Also, how can you call yourself an atheist when you talk about the Holy Spirit doing God's will through you? We believe in the Trinity because Jesus himself told us. You ask us to open our mind to new concepts. When I do, you can be assured it will not be to listen to an atheist.

Also, you talk about blind faith and never questioning our beliefs. That is the furthest from the truth for most of the people on this forum. We have done research into our faith, and feel fully justified in our beliefs. Therefore, we will not "fall foul to anyone with another well founded argument".

Finally, you do need our forgiveness (and God's). It was us Catholics on this forum whom you insulted. We forgive you for your insults but it must be God who forgives you for your lack of faith in HIM (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit).

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), November 13, 2001.

Ryan--
''Open [my] mind to *new concepts*--???'' Would you explain what's new about atheistic materialism, conceit and self-absorption? You make yourself out to be a groundbreaking, astute thinker. But all we can see is an egotist.

''Without personal pride we (?)can understand what we do as right or wrong.'' I suspect you meant to write ''CANNOT'' where I've placed (?). More importantly, you've said personal pride where it's supposed to say humility. What has right and wrong to do with your pride? Did you fall down a rabbit-hole today?

Lastly, who told you I have never questioned my belief? Don't you just assume this? I've been through a very close-to-devastating crisis of faith, and I came through it more convinced than I was before. I also have it on the BEST authority that there is a God. He has answered my prayers. His answer changed my life; and I drew from this experience not blind faith but absolute conviction.

Nevertheless, I'm not a bigot, nor a fanatic. I'm a True Believer. If the message I sent you seems just so much flaming, maybe you should take it like a man. Your argument is NOT well-founded; maybe you'll try again sometime. Ciao!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 13, 2001.

I dont think what I say is being viewed in the context I say it. Previously I questionned Catholicism, not Catholics. If people want to believe it, thats fine, i'm very pro-choice, however I also believe in reasoned choice not irrational choices. I know this is supposed to be what people call faith but is it wrong to question your beliefs. My point was before that God gave you a mind and has left it up to you to decide. If, by not reasoning, you follow a belief that is unreasoned then you do not use the gift that god gave you. If he gave it to you does it not make logical sense to use it? Another point. I didn't mean 'humility' I meant pride because that was meantioned earlier. However I do not understand Catholicism's problem with pride? Maybe someone could help? Oh and why is my opinion not worth listening to just because I am aithiest. I am not trying to teach about religion. I'm using some facts to create an arguement for questionning your faith. Does a Professor in theology, lets say Christian theology, have to be a Christian. They may know more about the bases for Christian doctrine than 99% of Christians but does it mean because they fail to profess faith in the scripture that their opinion is not worth listening to?

-- RYAN (ryanhartley@blueyonder.co.uk), November 14, 2001.

I agree with Mark. Mary is not mother of God for God chosed her.Your catholic saints r just normal human beings.How can u ask the dead to pray for u. Even your popes don't live a right life with God.Remember fools,God created us. Be holy and don't waste your live like pagans.God loves you, so come back to Him.

-- Emanuel (ilovegod@hotmail.com), November 27, 2001.

All right-- I was out of town, and now I see this post.
Mark is wrong. Emanuel is wrong as well as Mark. Together they don't make a right. If they say they do not believe Mary is the real Mother of God, then logic infers to me they don't believe Jesus Christ is God.

Mary cannot be the mother of the Son of God, Jesus-- unless God has chosen her; that's a fact. But having chosen Mary, God made her His Mother. You are so clever, calling us fools. How clever is it to say that something can't be done by God? Nothing is impossible with God.

''Your Popes don't live a right life by God?'' OK, Emanuel. You must think you're God. Only He would have the knowledge of how ''right'' a life is. Now we know; you think for God! As for the Catholic saints. How is it you expected them NOT to be normal human beings? Because they loved God more than they loved the world? It isn't abnormal to become a saint. It's just the grace of God, working in their souls during their lives. ''Be holy and don't waste your live like pagans. God loves you, so come back to Him,'' you say. --That means you think Mother Theresa, for instance, wasted her life and was a pagan? What does that make me and you?

If I pray to a saint, a soul who has been taken to heaven; do you think I'm praying to the body which was placed in a tomb? Or to the soul, whose presence in God's sight gives him the opportunity to pray for me ? I wouldn't pray to the dead body. You are a fool if you think that's what Catholics do. We pray to the living immortal souls in heaven; the saints. They can hear our prayer because it's one of the glorious gifts God has granted them as a special blessing to His people on earth. Even you, a non-Catholic, can pray to Mary, just for instance, and she will answer you.

If you doubt me, try it! SAY: Hail, Mary; full of grace! The Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God --Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 27, 2001.

To Ryan:
You make a case for reasoned faith? --''If people want to believe it, thats fine, i'm very pro-choice, however I also believe in reasoned choice not irrational choices. I know this is supposed to be what people call faith but is it wrong to question your beliefs. My point was before that God gave you a mind and has left it up to you to decide. If, by not reasoning, you follow a belief that is unreasoned then you do not use the gift that God gave you. If He gave it to you does it not make logical sense to use it?''

Dear Ryan; is it an irrational choice then, to take the word of One who has shown His infinite power constantly, right in front of our eyes? Or is it rational to doubt the Creator of the very person you've become? You seem very bright. Is this the simple result of evolution? To most atheists, it seems that way. But we choose to believe (rationally enough) that the universe around us has a Creator. His name is God. We think this is a rational choice of faith because not only does our world exist, He also has revealed Himself to men. We weren't left in the dark. Not all men, at least. To one chosen people, the Hebrews, He came down and spoke through prophets. He revealed the deep past, and He told us what the future held for us, if we had faith in Him.

This is the faith you think is an irrational choice. Well, maybe it would be, if God hadn't repeatedly proven its truth to us. Even you, an agnostic, can't merely count as false His word coming true in various books of the ancient scriptures. Israel did in fact find a ''promised land''. They were, as one people delivered from bondage, and formed a covenant and obeyed the Law given them by God through Moses. Why should you summarily dismiss these rational accounts? They, in turn pointed to the coming of a Holy One who would deliver men from their sins. That is historically unavoidable for a rational thinker; Christ fills the description.

So truly was this prediction fulfilled and this faith vindicated, that many thousands of martyrs testified in blood for our benefit. You call a faith like this blind? You see it as irrational, to believe those witnesses to Jesus Christ, who followed His holy apostles when they knew it would cost them their lives? Ryan, my friend. You are very hard to convince. To you, then, they must all have been crazy.

Jesus promised us eternal life for believing in Him. I certainly wouldn't lay down my life here on earth for less. Yes, I do believe Him. It's not irrational, I think, to give Him my credence. Especially when I see in the holy scriptures how He towers over all men. How all His words are charged with incomparable power. No man has ever spoken as Jesus Christ spoke. Not anyone. If I failed to believe Him, then my intellect would be irrelevant. No amount of learning or human wisdom would save me from extinction. But Christ has died for me, and promises an eternity of joy and love to all who follow Him.

It would hardly be ''wisdom'' to ignore His offer. You spoke of blind faith; and this, in turn would be ''blind indifference''.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 27, 2001.

Emanuel, I have a message for you. Please check out my new thread, "Communion of Saints - Body of Christ".

Peace!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), November 28, 2001.

Thankyou eugene for answering a post of mine without threatening me with torment of eternal damnation or the like! I do understand how appealing religion is and the function it serves but I dont think I find the belief irrational, more the beliefs of the people who practise them. I am not a child of the scientific 21st century just yet. I have read that the mathematical probability of life starting on this earth the way science proposes, ie: sudden fusion of cells in a pre- evolutionary pool of goop, has a probablity of 1 in 10 to 3,000. Thats 10 with 3,000 zero's afterwards! Also, physics has noted many times that even in the most complicated experiences or fascinations for science, the working principle can always be reduced down to a very simple principle, possible indicating a single organising principle for nature and possibly existence itself. Advanced mathematics has discounted the possiblilty of chaos ever existing, there is always order with all the mathematic mess! Perhaps this does indicate some higher ordering and perhaps God gave us this capacity to think and question things so that we can realise he IS there on our own. However maybe we did evolve simply become what we are by our own endevours only. At the moment this is what I believe. Perhaps Jesus did exist but I cannot see him as the son of God. He may have been simply a very wise man and there have been loads of them! Religiously: Muhattama Guatama (Buddha), Muhummad, Confucious etc. However also philosohically such as Socrates who led a very similar path to Jesus who was then put to death by the powers that were for dangerous to established authority. We do not worship him even though he has invariably influenced all of Western civilisation. His teachings, through Plato, form the backbone of Christian theological belief in an eternal soul. Original texts didn't account for this and promotes eternality of the physical body, negating the existence of a soul (remember Lazarus). Only when the christian ministries witnessed the power that a belief in an eternal soul could have, particuarly for military strength in the mind of a soldier going into battle, did the christian teachings begin to allow for a soul. Add to that this theological problem between ancient and contemporary (Middle Ages) thought, St Thomas Aquinas I believe blended the two together. This is the foundation of my problem with organised religion. It is produced by men, as a problem solver for man and can be changed again by man. Perhaps Nietsche was right. Maybe God is dead and we killed him.

-- RYAN (ryanhartley@blueyonder.co.uk), December 04, 2001.

Ryan,
You've given a fair example of the typical agnostic's rationale. There's nothing wrong with doubting. There is, let's admit --a lot wrong with denying from sheer prejudice. I can't point to any particularly prejudiced statement you make in your posts (maybe I'll scan them later).

Instead of trying to cope with your scientific circumlocutions, let me say simply; that if the Creator had only now decided after we had reached the atomic age, to reveal Himself to men, maybe His presence would make itself known by radio frequency transmission from outer space. Or in a laboratory. He'd give us a key to the equation, and we could certify His existence scientifically.

Being an all-merciful God, He wouldn't hold it against us that we had seen the enormity of His Creation without suspecting He had any hand in it. We'd be in His eyes the same as all innocent aborigines, and make allowances for that. Yes, He would just hand over all His secrets, and we could verify them scientifically. But-- God revealed Himself in the wilderness to men of ancient civilizations. They didn't know about square roots. The men who received His Word had nothing like university degrees, or even have the legacies of Greek civilization! They had eyes. They saw the night sky, and the constellations. They saw the seed, and how it came germinating out of the soil, with nothing to explain it. They saw sunlight and darkness. He came down to THEIR level, Ryan. Not necessarily the same level as your college professors. But these were all men, with intellects and reason. Above all, they witnessed real proof: God kept His word. He said the universal flood would come, to Noah. It came; argue all its historical data at some other time. He kept His word to Israel. He established Himself in her midst; and raised up a people to Himself. Holy people; able by His grace to raise the human race up from ignorance and barbarism.

God promised these same prophets a New Prophet had to come; one that would make all men children of God again. This was Jesus; and He fulfilled all the prophesies that came down to His day out of the past.

Instead of giving you layer after layer of this rationale-- all of which you've called ''blind'' to reason, I would recommend a beautiful book for you to read. In it, a number of the points you brought up in this last post are faced and reasoned out by the author. Particularly the roles played by ancient philosophers and founders of major religions. Try to find it, Ryan. It's titled ''The Everlasting Man'', by G. K. Chesterton. Even if you fail to agree with the author, you'll find it a great book.

Chesterton, if you don't already know this, wrote the book as a response to the writings of H. G. Wells; a prominent writer of the times, now known mostly for his science-fiction. Wells was a scoffer of religion and atheist. He was a ''rationalist'' much like yourself. Chesterton was a convert to the Catholic faith, from the Anglican. Go on and read it, Ryan. Let me know what you think of it sometime soon. Thanks for your reply.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 04, 2001.

Thankyou for the recommendation. I will read it and come back.

-- RYAN (ryanhartley55@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

It has been in my understanding that the catholic position on God is that "it" is neither a he, or a she, and that the term "he" is just used for politeness. I also understand that "God" is not "his" name; but the christian god is the god that has no name, and is just always called that due to "his" lack of name. It would not be wise to get them confused, as one of the major claims of the christian religion is that they worship a god that has no name, and that separates them from pagan religions.

I noticed a major flaw in this argument:"Above all, they witnessed real proof: God kept His word. He said the universal flood would come, to Noah. It came; argue all its historical data at some other time." you wanted to use this to show how belief 1 god and "his" son. however, there are many religions that believe in this great flood, for example the greek religion believed that Zeus was going to punish the world for their sins, due to the effects of the evils in pandora's box. However, one of the gods, prometheus, warned his son of this, and told his son Deucalion to build a boat, and to bring with him his wife, phyrra, so as to save the human race. Similar beliefs are in the ancient egyptian religion, as well as the ancient eithiopian religion. Together, these three civilizations were probabally three of the most influential in our past.(excluding romans, but they had basically the same religion as the greeks, save some details.)You say that a person could disprove any other facts from any other time period, and this one fact could remain; yet once one uses facts from the same time period, the "fact" can waver under stress. It makes a person wonder if perhaps the real gods/goddesses were those from the greek time.

I am not trying to disprove Catholism, nor am I attempting to promote paganism. I am simply saying that a person should question their beliefs. Where would society be if everyone believed that thin was in, and that fat people are worth less than anyone with less girth than them? chaos, and everyone would be anorexic, bulemic, or dead. Is it wise to follow the advice of someone without thinking thouroughly on the consequences? No. Why should religion be different? In my opinion, it shouldn't.

Currently I am questioning my religion, as I have noticed some frightening things about it that I do not approve of, things that promote racism, and other beliefs that I thouroughly disprove of. I am tring to research religion so that I can find one that I can fully agree with.

I am not an expert on Catholism, however, and if anything I said about it is incorrect, please correct me. Politely. Swearing, insulting, and giving threats,(things that I have seen on this board), do not help anyone's argument; they just show inability to contain oneself's anger, and weaken your statement.

-- Kuaki annonymous (foxes8@aol.com), January 05, 2002.

Dear Kuaki

It's curious you attach your message to a thread in which the first author belittles the Mother of God. You aren't satisfied, I guess, about Jesus the Son of God calling the Amighty, Our Creator, ''My Father''.

But He did. When He was breathing His last, on the cross, He prayed, ''Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.'' This is recorded for all of us in the gospels. Would the men who sat at the feet of Our Lord the Messiah, waste their time and attention with what you are talking about? Jesus said ''Abba'', or Father. Not Mother, and not Somebody. Not ''The Force'', as in Star Wars.

You are too modern for your own good, I'm afraid. Come to God in humility, and He'll show you His light. Jesus isn't asking anyone for a doctoral thesis on the gender issues of the 21st century, in order to call us to salvation. The Holy Gospel is divine, and being so transcends history and all our passing fancies. One day there won't be any longer a feminist, or an ecological or sociological argument to rally behind. No more gurus and no more jargon. But God will always be. The Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Look for the truth and forget the fads.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 06, 2002.

Hello, Kuaki.

As Catholic Christians, we believe that there is only one deity.
We call the deity "God" -- one supreme Being who, in greatest mystery, is a communion of three divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

You were mistaken about God's name. In his divine nature, God has revealed his name, to Jews and Christians, as "I AM" [YAHWEH, in Hebrew]. His name then indicates that fact of his total perfection, his eternal existence (no beginning and no end), and his authorship of creation (to which he gives "BEing").

Now God the Son, eternally divine, took upon himself a human nature in our time (about 2000 years ago), being given a human name. It is rendered in English and other languages as "Jesus," coming from the Hebrew "Yeshua" [meaning "Yahweh saves"].

You stated: "I am not trying to disprove Catholism, nor am I attempting to promote paganism. I am simply saying that a person should question their beliefs."

My reply: If someone questions a religious "belief," it is not really a "belief" to begin with. I have complete faith in my religious beliefs, long ago having been convinced that they could not possibly be wrong. So it would be a waste of time to question them. Questioning our infallible beliefs is something that the evil spirit, satan, would like us Catholics to do. We won't give him the pleasure.

You also wrote: "Currently I am questioning my religion, as I have noticed some frightening things about it that I do not approve of, things that promote racism, and other beliefs that I thoroughly disprove of. I am trying to research religion so that I can find one that I can fully agree with." My reply: I can tell that you are not a Catholic, since our religion does not promote racism. It is good that you realize that the true religion to which God wishes us to adhere cannot be one that teaches error or promotes sin of any kind. However, your search for God's religion will never work if you continue to base it on seeking "one that [you] can fully agree with" or "approve of" (to use your words). You must recognize the fact that you are a fallible human being who believe some things and approve of some practices that God himself rejects. That is why your search must be for the religion that God himself founded -- the religion to which you must then begin to adhere, even though it may teach a few things with which you currently disagree or disapprove of. You must pray for the gift of faith to humble yourself to accept what you do not fully understand. God will then help you to overcome your final misgivings.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 06, 2002.

Dudes! suddenly, what started from an innocent question turns into a "You are damned, I am perfect, and you'll go to hell." GEEZ! You are not Holy people right now, you don't have divine right over every body else just becaus eyou think they're wrong! (What do you do when someone messes up on multiplication, pray that God will have mercy on them? whatever.)I am just a lairthy or laity or layperson or whatever its called, but this is how I view this: 1, God is a guy. Elswise, Women would control the world and somehow, the whole "God and Mary" thing would just seem wrong. (also, Adam would have been Eve, because, "created in his own form" would have resulted in a woman instead of a man, or a shapeless force or blob.) Second, How can you believe something if you don't question yourself? Jesus spent 40 days in the desert thinking about What he must do before he truly was ready for his mission for God. Questioning doesn't always mean, "Am I wrong", but can also mean that you spend time to think about what you are doing before you do it. example: don't you look before you leap? Don't you look both ways before crossing the street? being told what to do just becaus esomeone said so is for children who are too little to understand any thing else. You learn more from asking questions, and remain ignorant when you stay slent. the "light of God" refers to leading people out of the darkness: revealing knowlegde to them about him. Don't we want to know more about what we do before we do it? you wouldn't perform surgery on someone without training, would you? You wouldn't try to teach something (like calculus) to people when you hardly understand it yourself, would you? we are children of God, yes, but God wants us to LEARN. He does not want stupid people to be his people. We can't expect all the answers to suddenly pop from the sky! So that is what I have to say. And if you guys are gonna try to damn me to hell, you are too late, cuz I have been to Hell on Earth twice. Whoohoo! Third times' the charm (maybe I'll never go again! or maybe I'll be stuck there... Oh well, like you'd care.)

-- Mistuki (Blssom25@aol.com), January 06, 2002.

Mistuki:
How are you? Can you just calm down and read this for a while without a quick ''overhand smash''?

First, nobody implied that Kuaki was damned. You have jumped the gun; he asked a question, and he was answered in a reasonable manner. No one said we are perfect and Kuaki is damned, or he better do what we tell him. He's free to ignore the lot of us. Or, he can learn a few pointers from the members of this forum. Just remember, we didn't go after Kuaki, he came in here. Look at what you wrote: ''I am simply saying that a person should question their beliefs. Where would society be if everyone believed that thin was in, and that fat people are worth less than anyone with less girth than them? chaos, and everyone would be anorexic, bulemic, or dead. Is it wise to follow the advice of someone without thinking thouroughly on the consequences? No. Why should religion be different?'' --

This is much the same as we told K, learn more about the faith. Nobody threatened him with hell. He came here with doubts about whether God is a male or a female. That was one of his concerns, and another was racism. John clearly stated Catholics are taught that racism is a sin.

You didn't read these posts very closely, I guess. What's your beef? Why are you attempting to ''clarify'' what everybody knows already?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 06, 2002.

Hi, Mistuki.

I notice that you recommend that people meditate on what they believe, turning it over in their minds, doing research about it and probing it -- in order to gain deeper insights and to let their doctrines develop into "fuller flower," but without actually denying the doctrines or any part of them.

Guess what? We Catholics agree with you! We do those things! But it is not right to call the just-described process "questioning our faith." Those three words are a phrase that implies that we Catholics should have doubts about what we believe, and that we may have to give it up and turn to some other religion. We can't accept such a thought.

People of other religions (or non-Catholic Christians) can logically "question their faith," because they do not begin with the principle that what they believe is infallible. They acknowledge the possibility of error. But Catholicism is rooted in infallible doctrines revealed by God, who cannot deceive nor be deceived. There is simply no point in questioning/doubting what God has revealed.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 07, 2002.

When God instructed Moses to speak to Pharoa, Moses questioned him, no? Peter was told to walk out on the water and he completely trusted Jesus, right?

-- anon (me @you.com), January 07, 2002.

It really hurts, doesn't it, Gale?

-- (_@_._), January 07, 2002.

ha...this is why i hate christians. they waste their lives on fairy tales...doesn't it strike you odd that in one part of the bible it's one of the ten commandments to not hate but in another passage it states that there is in fact a time to love but also a time to hate? hmm...curious. and another thing...why in the hell do you all insist on referring to god, an omnipotent being, as a male? i'm not trying to be a feminist and say god is in fact female...but there is no way that such a creature may exist and also hold gender. the bible was created by sick twisted old men to instruct others how to live in a dull, meaningless fashion because in their own masochistic ways feel they have sinned for enjoying themselves and then wish to envision as well as force others to believe in a "god" that punishes them for feeling pleasure. OH AND WHILE I'M RANTING.....the bible says that god created everything, correct? then, god created lucifer correct? then god created free will? then god created humans? well...if all of the above is true...then god created within us a weakness to sin thus damning and torturing us for what "he" instilled in us at the very moment of creation. now is that fucked or what? who wants to worship such a being? one who has filled us with a sinful nature, given us "free will" that still doesn't work for a damn and also a conscience that makes us feel horrible for being exactly how "he" made us?? oh, and the original author of the first message....good point i suppose...but you could've delivered it better i believe. keep up with the cynical attitude.

-- jen (perkygyrrl@aol.com), September 30, 2002.

Dear Jen, wow, why the hatred and anger? Either way, it doesn't matter, I have found love and peace in Jesus Christ. I asked Him to come into my life, and I gave him all my hurts, my hopes and dreams, pain and joy, and Jen, I know He is real, He is love itself, and if you give Him a chance, you'll really experience His love.

All the other questions and curiosities will fall into place, once you receive His peace, He'll provide all the answers. I too had questions, I didn't understand why there was such devotion to Mary. But I desired to know, to know her, and now I do. When I think of how she humbly obeyed, and said "yes" to God, when I think of how she literally gave her life for Jesus, and did everything for Him, and simply pointed everyone in His direction, I realized what a loving role model she is for me as a woman. And when I contemplate on how she suffered at the foot of the cross at Calvary, and Jesus Himself gave her to John's care, it is so real to me how she suffers for love of us, until we see Jesus face to face. That's all she wants, for Jesus to be loved.

Jen, Jesus heals all our fears, our messed up minds, and fills us with so much love we don't have to go searching any more for peace. And what's so awesome about Him, he cleans us up. He makes us feel so clean and pure, and holy, he respects us. Try Him. Go to a Catholic church, just listen, just give him a chance. He'll open doors you never could've imagined. sincerely, Theresa Huether

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), September 30, 2002.

Look, Jen--

''...this is why i hate christians.''

--''it's one of the ten commandments to not hate,'' NO that's not a commandment. --but in another passage it states that there is in fact a time to love but also a time to hate?''

-- ''but there is no way that such a creature may exist and also hold gender.'' God is no ''creature'', you poor floozie.

The only correct thing you've written is about our sinful nature. But God created us innocent. Our first parents disobeyed Him, and that's why our nature is to be sinful.

Since then, God gave His only Son up to death on the cross to --DELIVER us from the sin we all have. But, of course you are attached to that sinful nature, aren't you, Jen? You don't want to change it; it makes you feel ''pleasure''.

So; blame yourself, not God. You hate Christians? Shame on you. You're a real liberated woman, Hmmm?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 30, 2002.

Hi, I am a Catholic priest but I am not going to throw in too much of a theological answer to the debate as I do not think it would help. It seems in my experience that Fundamentalists, such as Mark and many others like him, have been caught up in a web of literal deceipt. We are not called to just follow the bible, after all the bible was written from verbal Tradition. Christ himself went far beyond the confines of the Old Testament when he began to explain the will of God and to explain the meanings of certain passages that were taken literally. Today the same thing happens with the New Testament. People, like Mark etc., confine themselves to the basic structure of the Bible and cannot get out of it in order to allow a fruitfull mature understanding transcend upon it. This is what Christ did with the Old Testament and we are called to do exactly the same with the New. Not to just reject what we do not understand but to also alow "that which is not explicitly written" shine out of the words within the New Testament, as Christ did with the Old Testament. He unfolded the words of the Old Testament into something livable and meaningful, not just rules and regulations, but the words of eternal life. As I said I am a Catholic priest (not laughing) and my job is one of guidance and pray for God's people who have responded to his call. I am not convinced (by my experieince!!) that people just blindly listen to me, instead they have faith that the Catholic Church has the authority to teach an orthodox Christian understanding of God and it is this that they trust that I, through my study and prayer, can indeed help them become mature, open minded Christians. THis last point about the authority of the Catholic Church (the Magisterium or the Teaching Office) are the only means of gaining some idea into such questions as to just how on earth is Mary the Mother of God (and other questions too). I have been through three different Christian denominations (Church of England, Baptist, amd Lutheran) before finding the one denomination that I considered to be gifted with the tools to understand the Christian faith, the Catholic Church. I have been Catholic for fifteen years now and ordained for two but we are all baptised Christians together travelling on the same road. In my experience study and prayer are the key to knowledge. Blind wordy arguments are useless and cannot be answered too, Christ himself only gave very short answers to those who confinded themselves to the literal words of the Old Testament. As Catholics offer to all other Christians (and the the whole world) the teachings of the Catholic Church which it receives from Scripture and Tradition and expressed infallibly through the Holy Father. I pray and hope that its wise words are heeded by all open minded people who are genuinly and selflesssly seeking God with their minds and hearts. Fraternally and God bless, Father Daren.

-- Father Daren Brown (revdaren@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

Welcome, Padre, I hope you have time to really engage in the conversations here.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

From the Nottingham, England, diocesan site.

Welcome, Fr. Brown. I hope that you can be interviewed by Marcus Grodi for EWTN's "The Journey Home" program some day. He interviewed several people in England in 2003, and the taped programs were telecast all over the world.

Happy New Year.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

Hi John and Bill, Thanks for your welcome. John, how on earth did you know my Bishop's homily for my ordination was on the web? Anyway well spotted. Its a good summary of my life with just one or two small mistakes but my bishop is very weel informed about his clergy and did very well to put it together without asking me a single thing. Fr. D

-- Father Daren Brown (revdaren@hotmail.com), January 03, 2004.