Anyone Interested in Naturally Raising Goats?

-- Diane Brown (oleoranch3@aol.com), January 23, 2001

Answers

Hi Diane, by naturally, do you mean no chemical wormers or pre-mixed feeds? If so, then yes, I raise all my animals that way. Theres some good groups over at egroups that raise goats this way too and they can be really helpful if you're just starting out.

-- Julie (julieamc@excite.com), January 23, 2001.

Hi Diane. Yes! I am in favor of raising goats naturally(within reason). It might be a good idea to define what raising thewm naturally means to you.

For me, it means that I don't vaccinate, give antibiotics routinely( I would in an absolute emergency), dam raise the kids, and focus on preventing disease. I do disbud kids, feed the does a dairy ration that has a good amount of protein, and utilize A.I. in our breeding program. If we had a disease in our herd that could be prevented by a vaccine, then I might use it. But our goats have always been healthy for the most part. The very few that have died were probably not strong, superior animals to begin with. I do worm once or twice a year, and rotate pastures to keep the worms under control. Diatomaceous earth is mixed with loose salt and fed free choice. There are mixed opinions about the effectiveness of DE as a wormer, but it's cheap and doesn't hurt them, so I've been using it.

Goats are naturally strong, hardy animals, unlike some other livestock. But I for one am concerned that if we remove them too far from the type of life they've had for centuries, they could end up as frail and short lived as commercial dairy cows.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 23, 2001.

I suspect that goats raised naturally-plenty of good browse,herbal type wormers,dam raised kids etc would be much healthier than most goats today.Problem is,most of us can't come close to that ideal so we do the best we can.We use pasture,prepared feed and chemical wormers.We don't use antibiotics routinely and have stopped the CD&T vaccinations.I don't bother to test anymore for CAE.All goats were CAE negative on the last three test a couple of years ago.The herd is closed. On the herbal wormer ...I use the Hoegger supply herbal every other treatment.I also plant the herb wormwood each year and occasionally give the does a little of that.Some of them will eat(with obvious enjoyment)unfiltered Camel cigarettes.Remember that tobacco was the wormer of choice for several hundred years.I do limit them to a couple if cigarettes.Don't want them to get a habit.:>)

-- JT in Florida (gone2seed@hotmail.com), January 23, 2001.

Actually I think that this type of forum, "please help my sick goat" then we give the answers, is giving the wrong impression of our herds.

I have a very long lived herd of Nubians, I have had Nubians for 14 years and showing since 1989, during most of this time I have sold milk, from just a few sales to small commerical, selling milk on contract frozen to a candy maker. All my kids are taken from their dams to be raised pasturized and heat treated, because you simply will never make money off of your stock raised any other way, and since I export, all animals on my place must test negative for disease. But other than prevention, worming, cocci treatment and vaccination...I threw away all expired antibiotics, sulfas, bloat remedies, which were completely unopened, this year. Only one of my 36 babies born last year received even one shot of antibiotics, and hers was preventative for shipping fever after being flown from Wyoming to Texas. My girls are very healthy, my eldest doe Poptart just kidded with twins at 11.

The catch 22 for you that want to raise your goats the natural way comes in the purchase of your stock! You aren't going to raise anything natural coming from the auction barn with abscesses and CAE. Bought from a clean herd, you could then stick your nose in the air and raise them naturally, after we did all the hard work of getting rid of CAE, which was about 80% of my herd back in 1990! You can now raise naturally of the backs of us who heat treated and pasturised for years, getting rid of this dreaded disease, quarantined, and culled! But don't you dare come back to the list, asking for help when your herbal wormers leave you with sick, anemic goats, asking for more information, or at the very least admit that you do need un-natural help. You are playing with fire disbudding without tetanus shots, and if you live in the south, I will guarantee that your stock will be small, stunted, unthrifty, without cocci and worm prevention. We haven't had below 32 degrees for more than 6 hours in about 7 years now. How natural is that. I actually started out trying to be nice, but you sometimes all get on my last nerve. I would love to forward even a small percentage of the private emails I get, helping folks just on this list with their stock!

So now lets end this thread with all the wonderful ideas you all are going to come up with to get rid of CL, CAE, Johnes, cocci, worms, ecoli, urinary calculi, etc. that didn't come from this and other unnatural goat raisers!!!

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 23, 2001.

Vicki, i'm sorry if what I said upset you. I didn't mean to. But, about CAE, I have read that bottle feeding was what caused it to be so widespread in the first place. That people at shows would pool all the milk and feed it to all the kids (unpasteurized). This is what I have read in the old UCN's and goat Husbandry by David Mackenzie. I'm not entirely against everything 'unnatural'. After all, I do A.I. on my goats and assist in the births when they need it. I just like to ascertain what is, and what is not, necessary. If tetanus is a big problem in Texas, then you should vaccinate for it. I would, too. But it just isn't an issue here, and I don't even immunize my children or myself. I am grateful for the efforts of the breeders before me, who worked hard to get a CAE negative herd, and to breed good stock. I think the best way to thank them is to carry on in their footsteps, breeding good stock, honestly, and keeping a clean herd.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 24, 2001.

I do things much like Rebekah does, and have had no health problems with my goats. I only have two or three most of the time. They are bred with a buck, not AI. I do not keep the buck here, but it comes from another small herd situation the same as mine.

-- Nancy in CA (sonflower35@icqmail.com), January 24, 2001.

We began raising goats when we first moved here, they were boer goats, naturally. What we discovered was the humid hot weather here wreaked havoc on their health. So we ended up having to use wormers, shots, etc. We have focused upon our herd of goats; and as a result of our goals for showing and milk production have not elected to go raising them 100% naturally.

We do however, raise all our chickens, pigs and beef calves as naturally as possible. We are in the process of obtaining certification for an organic farm, which is quite an endeavor. Under the guidelines you are allowed certain preventatives and chemicals. It is a very long cumbersome process which hopefully will be done soon.

Again, its up to the owners choices as to what will or will not work for them. All i can suggest is to try it and see. there is a list on egroups which may be of interest to you, its http://www.7mfarm.com there is always a good discussion going on about natural methods for health, both animal and human. In fact i use many of their products on not only my goats and other animals, but for myself and hubby too. i'm not real convinced yet about using herbal wormers, still reading the research on it. i don't feel that it would be effective for me here.

But in my humble opinion, for what our goals are for our goats we cannot go to all natural raising as it simply would not be effective. I tried it once and it did not work for me, thats not to say it might not work for someone else.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

I agree to raise your livestock as natural as possible and I raise my children the same way. But it comes down to this when other than natural things are needed than use them . I do chemical worm when they kid I bottle feed my babys it helps with them being more friendly and I just enjoy it having all my babies following me. I dont use the vet because my DH and I are are totally againest them in our area they dont know crap about goats. But if I have a serious problem I call a good friend (whos a vet) in Montana where we used to live and ask him and its free he knows I am good with my animals and it doesnt bother me to pull a kid if needed or put a goat down when its suffering and dieing. I do use DE everyweek mixed with the grain and here in the south you need to worm every 3 months about and I worm in the fall with Ivermectin cause it helps with lice and when they kid in about January other than that I dont and my goats are great. I only use natural things for milking and cleaning. And so far my animals are great and look better than they did on chemicals all the time.You use your judgement on what to use and when to use it. My children are healthy and they dont go to the doctor for anything but they are up to date on vacines just like my goats and if they needed the doctor they would go. And we eat as naturally as possible and so do my animals since we eat them and use their many products.

-- Erika in Mississippi (aewood1@juno.com), January 24, 2001.

Rebekah, we are moving soon, hoping to take a few does but not the buck. Is it difficult/expensive to learn AI? Can you recommend a good book or something on it? Thanks, mary

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

Vicki, You are missing the point,Those of use raising our goats naturally aren't going to infect you herd as you have already chemically treated yours to prevent this. Most of have already been where you are now and we didn't like it. What are you going to do when all the chemicals you are useing no longer work??Are you going to call me and ask me what i've been using.Will you then be maintaining your herd on the backs of us that are not doing it your way?All of our animals test negative for cae and we have never pasturizes one drop of milk and we now dam raise as it is less work and the mothers are happier. Isn't that what this is all about being happy,I'm not into goats for money i'm into them because I love them obiousely you only care about your exports your ego and money, you aren't concerned about the long term health of the species.

-- Diane In Idaho (oleoranch3@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

Mary, I think the best way to learn AI must be to have another goat keeper show you how to do it. I didn't have that advantage, I learned it all from a little booklet and experience. the booklet can be had from either Hoegger's supply or Caprine supply, I think. I don't agree with what they say about the timing though. The only conceptions I have had were on breedings done just as the doe went out of heat. Is it hard? Well, if you are winging it, as I was, it is a little intimidating and you have to juggle the timing of the breeding, the temp of the semen, the penetration into the cervix... I think I would have had more confidnce and success if someone had shown me what and how to do it. The most important element to acheive success is timing. You have to know when your doe is in heat, or not, and when she is due to come into heat. If you start from scratch, as I did, then it is a little spendy. The nitrogen tank cost about $250.00 ( a really great deal),semen cost a hundred dollars minimum order plus that much shipping and handling, the AI kit cost $150.00. Nitrogen services for the tank run around $100.00 a year. If you are not really serious about breeding good registered stock, you will be better off to take your does to a buck. But if the thought of breeding your does to the best bucks in the world, bucks that are now dead, and seeing dramatic results in your breeding program,excites you, then A.I. is the way to go! If there is another breeder nearby who would help you learn, that you could order semen at the same time with, or buy some from her, and store your semen in their tank and you pay half the nitrogen costs, it would be cheaper than what it cost me.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 24, 2001.

Yes Diane, you have caught me. I am only on this forum and others because of my hatered for my goats, my ego, and wanting everyone to know how great I am....

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 24, 2001.

These comments are uncalled for. Simply because someone doesn't follow the same doctrine that you do that makes them egotistical and uncaring of their livestock? You asked a question, and it was answered. You should have stated that you only wanted to hear what you believe to be true.

Vicki goes above and beyond the call of duty to help other people with their goat questions she did not deserve your comments, IMO.

Stacy Rohan--in Windsor, NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

Yikes, even on the goat threads????? Spring, we sure do need you!!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

Shame on you Diane.Of course there is only one way to raise goats.No other ideas should ever be discussed.I wish to humbly apologize for getting my goats off the backs of hard working people who raise goats for profit.Now if some of you would just pay my feed bill,reimburse me for those CAE test I paid for etc.etc etc.

-- JT in Florida (gone2seed@hotmail.com), January 24, 2001.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please, lets not tear ourselves apart. There is so much of this going on on other goat talk lists that i am very concerned by this. For example, one list I am on is very hateful right now as there is a bit of a history with backbiting and such. really ignorant comments. And I won't even mention the mess on our adga district list. i am keeping the names annonymous for now. And... not to mention the recent quarrling and hard feelings that i witnessed at NAILE among some of the Nubian breeders there.

I always felt this forum was a nice place to come and discuss matters and was not political like the rest.

why is it that goat folks end up bickering and fighting at times? Can't we all try to put our differences aside to help each other out and to promote what we do, and i don't mean for money. There is a lot of educating to do out there folks about teaching non-goat folks about goats. Like they eat out of tin cans, etc. We all share a common love, goats. Lets try to put our differences aside and work together.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

Thank you all for your input there were 17 responces and only three of them were negative and had nothing to ad on the subject of raising. I am sorry to have asked this question as it has opened the largest can of worms I have ever saw. I was hopeing to learn something and I guess I did, don't put a sensitive question on the internet Sorry""""

-- Diane Brown (oleoranch3@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

I'd like to apologize for upsetting anyone with my comments. All of you have been so helpful since I got my little Nubian. My experience is with horses- I'm new to goats. Nothing raises the hair on my neck like someone believes their opinion is "The One True Way" There are as many different ways of doing things as there are people. I, for one, would never consider not vaccinating against tetnaus and rabies. I'm not impressed with the reliability of herbal dewormers, but many people are, so I rotate conventional dewormers.

Again, I'm sorry if I upset anyone that has helped me. You are important to me.

Stacy Rohan

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

"Yikes, even on the goat threads????? Spring, we sure do need you!!!!"

Apparently, by the unsolicited e-mail I received from her, this was judged as a critical remark by the originator of this thread. I do apologize to anyone who felt it was. I had come on to the thread to put my "2 cents worth" on and was intimidated by the dialog that had developed and tryed to add some lightness. Sorry.

Although I might not have worded it quite like Vicki did, I would have probably come down real close to her advise. It is quite wonderful to me that young people coming into the area of goat keeping have some options that us "old-timers" did not have. The "natural vs. chemical" debate extends into many areas, including child-rearing. When I was a child every neighborhood had a child that had been affected by polio, to say nothing of the birth defects that abounded from young pregnant mothers who had had german measles during pregnancy, kids who had died from tetanus, or had been sick for month from whooping cough. My generation didn't have dipthera, because the generation before had vaccinated for it. We vaccinated our children and thus you have the option not to because the diseases have all been pretty much eradicated. I pray that it will stay that way. Vicki and I know from experience the devastation involved with finding a "star doe" has CAE. How it was spread throughout most of the top bloodlines in the nation is still a mystery, although as mentioned there are some theories. That it was spread is a fact. That many of us struggled to get clean herds again is a fact. Tetanus can live in the soil for a very long time. If you have horses and goats both you should be vaccinating.

I just got a notice from ADGA that I need to send a picture of my doe that was grand champion junior doe in a very large show in 1997. It was the high point of my breeding program, to win a class filled with top bloodlines all over the country. When she freshened I discovered she milked well and had a wonderful udder also. I never got her out and finished her because I came home from that show with a terrible strain of pinkeye that blinded half my animals for months. I have never shown again and my herd is closed. Every now and then I GIVE a good doe kid to a 4-H kid that otherwise might not have the opportunity to show. I am not saying this to toot my own horn, just offering up an alternative to showing for those who want to see how their breeding program is stacking up but don't want to risk showing.

The "chemical needs" of our herds will vary with geographic location, proximity to other herds, whether our herds are open or closed, climate, you name it. I was truly saddened that people had to get so ouchy here.

Vicki and I both have had the experience of trying to help newcomers, Vicki here and me in my little 3 county area, and felt soundly rejected and then been called on when people were in distress because their "natural" ways didn't work. Personally I think if you find an area where you have lots of brush and you can feed hay where no contamination can occur, you will cut down your parasites to a level that requires nothing but "natural" ways. Unfortunately, few of us have that option, so we have to do some chemical worming or start losing kids to parasite overload. I would hope you "young ones" could have some patience with us "old ones" and we could perhaps learn from each other. I would also hope that as we go down the road we could also share our failings so we could learn from those as well. Goat keeping has been one of my most exciting adventures, right after my spirituality and child raising in satisfaction and joy. Let's try and be kind to each other and share with out fearing.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 25, 2001.

It is nice to hear other ways of doing things. And I have an open mind to them. I also tend to stick with the tried and true. Vicki's ways are tried and true and she cares very much for goats. Because of Vicks generosity with her time she gave me a list of everything I would need to get started. She is a voice of experience and is very passionate about goats. I've never detected an egotistical bone in her threads. I'm sure there is room for variation but her way works!

Look at the archives and you'll see that Vicki is always there to help and cares very much.

I hope we are able to look at the different ways to do things and glean what may be applicable for our situation without being offended or upset. Let's be nice to one another!

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 25, 2001.

Hi Diane, I don't think it was so much the question that was "sensitive," as the nature of your response to Vickie's answer. Vickie’s methods may not be your methods, but she does put in a tremendous amount of time and effort helping people on this forum with their goat questions, answering based on her many years of successful experience. She is one of those we can always count on to answer to the best of her considerable ability, and she answers every single time. Please keep this in mind before you relight your flamethrower. Thanks.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), January 25, 2001.

I've been lurking on this thread for a few days and thought I'd put my oar in the water. The term "natural" is pretty loaded and has as many definitions as there are participants in this discussion. I reject completely the notion of evolution and therefore start from the premise that our domestic dairy goats were always only ever domestic (from creation) and have no connection to wild goats which live "naturally." That said, what is "natural" in raising domestic goats? Before modern veterinary medicine and injectables, goat farmers didn't do as well as they do now since there was a much higher mortality rate. If you want to eliminate injectables and any manufactured substance, then you need to accept higher mortality and shorter life span for your goats. Antibiotics have clearly been abused and we are beginning to see the results: stronger and more resistant bacteria. There are many treatments available to maintain good health in a goat herd to maximize production. Not all chemicals and vaccinations are "unnatural". We use a wide variety of vitamins, supplements, and medications. The medications are used with restraint. I disagree with an earlier statement that goats are hardy. There are a number of illnesses that can take them quickly. Depending on your location and season, cocci can run rampant through a herd and will kill kids or adults within days if not treated. The best treatment is good prevention. The germs that cause cocci are ever present in the soil - everyone is susceptible. Warm and humid conditions seem to make the risk highest. March and April kids are at the most risk. December and January kids have a chance to grow and develop their own resistant before the cocci proliferates in the Spring. June and July kids hit the ground after things have dried off and the cocci has abated. Timing your kidding for the coldest or driest time of year is a good "natural" prevention for cocci. If you want March kids and you live in a climate such as the Pacific Northwest, then you had better be willing to treat with Corrid or another cocci prevention/treatment. Your kids WILL come down with it.

CAE is an ever present threat. There is no treatment. We test annually so that we can assure our customers and fellow breeders that we are free. An animal can test negative one year and positive the next. Ignorance may be bliss, but we have to know, so we test. Nothing unnatural about it, just taking a little blood.

Many areas have "natural" mineral deficiences in the grass and alfalfa. Livestock can go lame and have all sorts of other ailments without adequate Selenium, a "natural" substance in the soil. We give Bo-Se shots to all does after kidding and to the newborns to make up for this deficiency. I don't know of any other way to get it into them.

I could go on and on about all the other treatments we use. An infected cut can lead to Tetanus. Before the vaccination, even people died of tetanus. I've never heard of natural remedy. I don't see anything "unnatural" about vaccinations. They are simply a formulation of the dead bacteria to prompt the body to build an immunity.

Enterotoxemia can kill an adult goat within hours. It is caused by the Clostridium bacteria which is what the CD vaccination is for. It's an agonizing death and the ONLY effective remedy is the CD antitoxin. Then there's milk fever, pregnancy toxemia, worms: all of which we have to deal with. We can't afford to lose $400 show goats. Some of our routine treatments include calcium supplemtents, Vitamin B complex, free choice sald and baking soda, and commercial feed supplements. We also use antibiotics when necessary and vaccinate routinely. I won't fault anyone for using "natural" supplements and remedies. I wish I knew more about them. But don't throw the baby out with bathwater. If all you have is two or three does which you keep isolated from the rest of the goat community, you might get by being all "natural." But, if you have a commercial breeding program and show in competition, then you'll soon be out of business without the so called "unnatural" remedies. Skip Walton, www.sundaycreek.com/Nubians , Stanwood, WA

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), January 25, 2001.

Skip, out of curiosity, do you have some basis in fact to back up this statement?

"That said, what is "natural" in raising domestic goats? Before modern veterinary medicine and injectables, goat farmers didn't do as well as they do now since there was a much higher mortality rate."

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 26, 2001.

"I reject completely the notion of evolution . . ." "Antibiotics have clearly been abused and we are beginning to see the results: stronger and more resistant bacteria."

So Skip, just how are those bacteria becoming stronger and more resistant if they are not mutating to better compete in their environment, or in other words, evolving? Just curious.

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), January 26, 2001.

just a pop in, mutation-sudden change in a gene which affects the form or qualities of offspring and is inheritable. (in biological terms) evolution-the theory that all living plants and animals arose from one simple form of life and gradually developed into widely different and more complicated forms through natural process of change over millions of generations. I follow current science on this, it is a theory, it has not yet been proven, all former evidence has been completely disproven. It has also become common to use the word evolution, instead of the word mutaton.Many dictionaries carry a 2nd definition for it. <> Not!! Please don't get mad, I'll go away now...

-- Thumper (slrldr@aol.com), January 26, 2001.

Evolution - 3. (biol.) a. The theory that groups of organisms change morphologically and physiologically with time, mainly as a result of natural selection. -- American Heritage College Dictionary, Third Edition, 2000.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), January 26, 2001.

Here are a couple of email lists dedicated to natural goat herding: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Holistic-Goats "This is a list whereby all who are interested in healing with herbs and natural methods can voice their opinions and share their views. The predominant theme is "Herbal Remedies" & "Natural Healing" for your goats. We welcome the discussion of other animals but the list is primarily directed at alternatives or supplementing for your caprine friends. This is for seeking other ways , ie." Alternatives and/or supplementation to conventional medicine for those who would like to seek other methods of naturally raising their stock."

It is not restricted to Classical Homeopathy, and may , to a degree, include adjuncts such as diet + nutrition, herbs, lifestlye etc, and health related topics such as vaccination etc. Any information herein is for the purpose of discussion only and not for diagnosis or prescription . All opinions expressed on this list are those of the authors.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7mFarm-Herbal "Dedicated to the herbal, natural, alternative, and holistic care and keeping of livestock, animals and pets. Great for small farm owners and homesteaders. Although goats are my first love, we raise and chat about all sorts of animals from the farm."

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), January 27, 2001.