I bought doe goats from a man who sells Alpines. He, every now and then in his 70+ goats, has babies (brown goats) described as Oberhasli. He hates the color. I, of course, love them. I bought two of them and now am wondering if they are Oberhasli throws out of non-pure Alpines. I don't believe that his goats are registered although he really watches who and what he breeds to. Vicki, are Oberhaslis Alpine sports/variations? I will keep them no matter what as they are pretty. Thanks!

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), January 24, 2001

Answers

Hello GailAnn,

I know you addressed your query to Vicki, but i couldn't help but throw my 2 cents in... I raise Alpines and have an obie/alpine cross in the barn now. To answer your question, yes, alpines and obies can both be brown. the only real distinguishing factor I can see is the smaller stature in the obie breed. also, the obie color is a richer brown and they seem to me anywyas, to have a more dished face.

Here is a website with the colorings explained for the alpine breed http://www.agdomain.com/web/1999shows/

Just scroll down to the bottom, and there you will see the coloration links. also keep in mind that the obie breed is a spinoff of the alpine breed, its a swiss breed too, forgot the exact name, think it wa srock, but don't hold me to it.

Hope this helps. if I have confused you even more i apologize.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

No, I really appreciate all the info. I realized after I posted the question that Rebekah Leaf and you and lots of other folk probably know the answer too! I had a long e-mail conversation with Vicki months ago concerning udder ulcers and so knew she would probably know too... So are you saying that an Oberhasli _is_ an offshoot of the Alpine? This fellow dislikes the brown (gorgeous) bay color so much that he ships doelings and bucklings off to the butcher yards - sez they look like monkeys... I think it's the prettiest color going - reminds me of the white-tail deer that graze in the neighbor's field.

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), January 24, 2001.

I raise Obies, great goats. They were originally known as Swiss Alpine. Actually, in Switzerland, they are known as Chamoisee but they are one of the same. They are on the "guarded list" as a species, so take good care of them! ;-))

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), January 24, 2001.

From what I understand, there was a time when Oberhasli were not recognized as a breed by ADGA. There were purebred Obers but they had to be registered as Alpines. Many of these were incorporated into the Alpine breed. Only a few were kept pure Oberhasli breeding, so that by the time ADGA finally recognized the breed, the gene pool was quite small. I have heard that this is why alpines have the Ober color now, because there is that blood in there, especially in the American Alpines. The chamoisee color patern seems to be pretty dominant. I think it's nice, but we all have our pet peeves. What I don't like is a white alpine splashed with lots of other colors and a pink nose! To me, a pink nose just does not look like an Alpine. That, and a Togg brown with white markings, and a bit of black on the points, again, it doesn't look enough like an Alpine to me.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 24, 2001.

Rebekah, I always thought that a pink nose was cute!

Obers have a dark brown bay color, and (I believe) no spot of white on them more than an inch across. Their faces are more "dished" (think of an Arab horse, and you get the idea). Their ears are smaller, too. There are some black goats born into the breed, but they are rather looked down as "not true to type," and the bucks can't be registered in ADGA. There was a problem with udder attachment, when I was in the goat buisness more than ten years ago; I would be interested in seeing if that improved over the past years. Overall, they are a pretty sory of critter, but expensive back then, so I admired from afar.

An Interesting story....the last buck that we had was out of a national champion Alpine buck (Sasin), AI'ed to a permanant grand champion doe. Thundercloud was wide and long and huge (free choice milk and alfalfa), and COAL black. Sasin and his dam (can't think of her name now, but she was Redwood Hils) were both American Alpine. Sasin's dam was a several times Nat'l Alpine doe, but she looked very Obie in coloring, and was an American, which means that somewhere in her background, there was a non-registered goat in the woodpile. There was (a long time before) a herd of Obies on a farm in California that "dissappeared" years before....the owner had sold out, and the critters were scattered everywhere. Several have wondered if the Sasin line had some Obie in it somewhere.....

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), January 24, 2001.

Oh yes.... was going to mention the Kiwi Mallow story but didn't get the time. The Sasin you are referring to had a relative, forgot how or where now but her name wa sKiwiw mallow. Kiwiw was the perfect obie colr despite the fact she was a upgraded registerable american alpine. She was very lovely though. I have both does and bucks in my bloodlines going back to Kiwi and Sasin. And.... that ruby red color still comes out even though its generations removed. somewhere in this rubble i have the pedigrees of both. If you'd like to see the national GCH pages I made for alpines international; go to my website, http://www.AgDomain.com/web/geminigoats then go to the bottom of the page, click on the 1990-200gch and the 1980-1989GCh page links.

I can talk all day about those lines.... better stop now while i'm ahead *smile*

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

LeAnn I also have heard that story. And yes the Obies in the show ring really run the gambit of the very nice robust large milker to the pinched at the sholder, horribly attached udder. Not the consistancy that you see in bodies of Nubians, or udders of LaManchas. And I am not a color breeder, so Obies, like Saanens and Toggs, were never for me anyway.

Gailann, what an excellent way for you to start out. Color faults in Alpines, (well to this breeder anyway) which are probably just Obie genetics down the pedigree, Saanen color faults, which a whole new breed is coming from, colored Saanens, now called Sables, and Toggs with wrong white markings, are great ways for folks to get excellent genetics and excellent milkers. You could easily register these does kids and start your own American bloodline of Alpines, Toggs, or Oberhaslis, just get yourself a nice unrelated buck. Perhaps an Alpine from Bernice! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 24, 2001.

Speaking of color faults in alpines.... the lavendar color is considered to be a fault by some breeders. Its a funny color that in the light will look lavendar. Story is amny amny yrs ago that there was an old breeder who had several breeds... it was said that the togg buck jumped the fence and the result was the lavendar color. Its sort of a blackish color but with shades of lavendar.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 24, 2001.

I have a Sable Saanen. She's marked just like a Belted Galloway cow, black with a white ring around her belly. There is a large herd of registered Saanens down the road, and this spring was one little black and white just like mine, with the ring. I love the black and white Alpines, seems to be my favorite. Now if I can breed to get them marked like a Border Collie, I might have something! he he he

I already have a kitten marked exactly like a Border. I hope he is prepotent. My Alpine Buck has thrown his own kind this year allready, black with white butts, even on the nubians they bred to last fall. They got one reg. doe kid of his, and I am first on the list for her if they sell.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), January 25, 2001.

Thanks for all the info. These goats _are_ actually smaller. Ladygoat is 3"-4" shorter at the shoulder than the Alpine woman I had. She _does_ however have an abnormality (an extra orifice on one teat) that will make it so I won't keep babies out of her. I know that will haunt her line forever. She, although only 50-60lb. or so, gives 1 gallon a day when she is milking! Lots of milk and a peculiarly sweet taste. The other goat, Althea, is just now bred to a Boer for meat and was one of 5 in her "litter" so she is naturally smaller. Yes, both of their faces are slightly dished (I have two Arabs) and their ears _are_ smaller. They just look more dainty and petite. Ladygoat aborted both of her babies last year and so I'm concerned about her future. I like the smaller goatwomen. The big Alpine I had was HUGE! I'm only 5' tall so it was a real wrangle with her somtimes. Thanks again for all the info. I will talk to my goat supplier and let him know that he may just have a throw-out to another desired breed. And tell him to advertise his "Oberhasli's."

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), January 25, 2001.