First, Eugene and John...thank you for helping clarify more for me. The last couple of posts really helped alot. Mary, I started a new thread for you to answer here. I'm curious to see what you have to say. Also, reading what John and Eugene wrote made me think of something...I was remembering when Jesus was baptised. And there was this heavenly light that emitted from him/came down upon him. And he was transformed. Filled with the Holy Spirit. And he went out to do his work. To build his Church.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 25, 2001

Answers

To the top, please.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 25, 2001.

Whatever others think, ''Dr.'', I have no interest in any more of your nonsense. You waste the time of all the serious contributors to the forum; and can't be taken seriously anymore. You of all people, to instruct us on Holy baptism? You are simply a tool of Satan. The tool is a shovel, and you shovel horse manure.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 27, 2001.

Hey, Eugene...you know who he's starting to remind me of? David Borne. Pathetic, really.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 27, 2001.

Oops. Make that Darian Borne. See? That's how little I payed attention to him. Didn't even remember his name.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

Give it up, Doc cuz it ain't working. You have your beliefs and I have mine. Nothing can come of a discussion with you because quite honestly, you sound like a broken record. Is this your way of trying to convert someone??? Hurling insults and being profane? Haven't you ever heard the expression you can catch more flys with honey, than vinegar? What you are doing is simply isolating yourself from people that have good, honest intentions. Oh yes and psstt, hey doc...guess what? Those you tried to push away from their Church with your ranting...you simply drove closer to it! HA! Rather ironic, I think.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

Jackiea,

Do you really wish me to post my views on Baptism? If I do, you may not find them very palatable for your consumption, because they are by and large at odds with Catholic teaching.

Furthermore after my last two messages to you concerning 'how one is saved' in the Mother Teresa thread you made this remark about me to other people: "Why Mary wouldn't just come right out and give me an explanation for her words is beyond me". If you just want me to espouse my own beliefs without reference to scripture then sorry, you are out of luck. On the other hand if you genuinely wish for some correspondence on Baptism and are prepared to read some scripture, let me know.

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 28, 2001.

Jmj

Hi, folks.

We must keep in mind this rule from the Moderator:
"Topics on this board are meant to be related to the objectives stated above, (furthering knowledge of the Catholic religion, and increasing people's faith). Questions *and Criticisms* from non-Catholics are also welcomed if done in a sincere fashion. Non-Catholics should feel free to politely ask any question they wish regarding our faith, and if you have a criticism, politely express it. BUT, posting deliberately bigoted material (such as Tony Alamo or Jack Chick tracts) or mocking the Lord or the Catholic faith will not be tolerated, and these threads/posts will be deleted. Please remember that you are guests in our house, and we would ask you to act accordingly."

Friends, I don't believe that the above rule allows for a non-Catholic to simply lay out his/her full doctrine on a subject (for example, Baptism), complete with burdensome loads of biblical quotations, etc. -- especially not with the intention of trying to undermine our Catholic faith. [Such essays are all too often copied from Chick/Alamo/etc-type sites, as we have seen in this past fortnight.]

What I see in the rule above is that a non-Catholic can "sincerely and politely ask a question or criticize" a Catholic belief. I propose that this be done one point at at time. Here is an example of what I think would be a "sincere and polite question and criticism:"

"If I'm not mistaken, Catholics believe that it is appropriate to Baptize infants. I have been told by my pastor [or 'According to my reading of the Bible'], Baptism should be done only to someone old enough to profess his faith. Can you please explain why you Catholics believe in infant baptism? Here are the scriptural verses that I believe support my point of view (or contradict yours): [etc.]"

Does this seem reasonable to anyone besides me?

How about another idea that I think would make for better conversations:
A non-Catholic should do at least a modicum of "homework" before coming here to question our beliefs. This could be visiting an apologetics site (such as www.catholic.com [Catholic Answers] or http://www.catholic.butlerlinks.com/index.html [Chris Butler] or http://www.cin.org/users/james/ [James Akin] or http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM [Dave Armstrong], among many others).
Or it could be visiting the Catechism's sear ch engine, popping a topic in the upper slot (with quotation marks around it), and clicking on the button to retrieve our official teaching on the subject matter -- including supportive scriptural quotations.

I think that I am not asking too much here. I think that if someone wants to dispute what we believe, he/she should be required to be properly prepared. I think that this early research would even result in some unncessary threads not being posted -- and may even help spur some conversions of people who were planning to contradict us.

An important thing that the many anti-Catholics who are coming here need to know is that the single biggest reason they are getting so much flak (at least from me, and perhaps from others) is that we live by the Golden Rule. We NEVER, NEVER, NEVER go to Protestant discussion sites and disrupt them with obnoxious comments, challenges designed to unsettle people and make them lose faith, etc., etc.. (I don't go to such sites at all -- much less to attack anyone.) We respect people's freedom to believe as they do, and we don't go roaming around looking for "victims" to proselytize. Consequently, we cannot BEAR the unjust and tasteless criticism to which we have recently been subjected here. It is so unChristian, do devil-pleasing. We "do unto others" in a just way (not raiding their sites), and we expect them to "do unto us" similarly.

St. James, pray for us.

Mother of divine Grace, pray for us.

God bless you.
John


-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 28, 2001.

Ditto. Mary, if you think you can do what John suggested, then sure, I'd love to hear your view but if all you are going to do is quote Bible scriptures...save the space.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 28, 2001.

Jackiea,

If the Bible is not sufficient for you then I will save the space, thank you.

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 29, 2001.

Mary, if I may, I wanted to let you know that it isn't that I'm a close minded person. Quite the contrary. Sometimes, I'm *too* open minded. But the thing is, not always do I understand the passages out of the Bible and especially if they are in the "old language". This is what I like about my Church. They don't just throw a few passages out there and go on. They explain what it means and if I still don't understand, I can always go to my priest and ask for further guidance. Ask anyone here...I don't think I'm stupid. Just more cut and dry. Many times, I have asked something on this board and received many answers but still did not fully understand. And then, someone will come along and explain it so simply that I say ahhhhh...yes, now I get it. It isn't that I don't believe what the Bible says. It isn't that I'm trying to be rude by saying that Bible verses alone aren't going to cut it. I'm just saying you're going to have to give me a little more to go on if you want me to see your point of view. That's all. God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 29, 2001.

Dear Mary Derek,
Your 28 Jan post says you could not explain your views on baptism without passages from Scripture. Why not just present whatever you believe and let us go to the Church, see if it is approved, or if it is ''unpalatable''. The pages of the Bible dealing with Holy Baptism have never been unpalatable to me, so the unpalatable side must be in your interpretation. If you have the Holy Spirit, there shouldn't be any qualms for you. Of course, when I've said unpalatable things to you and other protestants, I was castigated. Believe me, I wouldn't castigate you. Feel free.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 29, 2001.

Greetings: Not the sprinkling on of water but a clear mind toward God of your sin is what baptism God wants. Water cant do anything for your sin only Jesus can. Do you know him people who pray to God anyother but in the name of Jesus dont know God. Read it in the book of Peter. Peter the apost who preached to the Jews.

God open their blinded hearts in Jesus name amen!

-- Alex is saved because of Jesus who baptized me into the body of Christ (Jesusislife@christinaemail.com), January 29, 2001.

Dear Jackie,
I came back here and couldn't help feeling amused by that final post of the incomparable AlexJr. ==>

Greetings: Not the sprinkling on of water but a clear mind toward God of your sin is what baptism God wants. Water cant do anything for your sin only Jesus can. Do you know him people who pray to God anyother but in the name of Jesus dont know God. Read it in the book of Peter. Peter the apost who preached to the Jews. <==

When I compare the simplicity and ingenuious love coming across in your first post in this thread:

I was remembering when Jesus was baptised. And there was this heavenly light that emitted from him/came down upon him. And he was transformed. Filled with the Holy Spirit. And he went out to do his work. To build his Church.

--And Alex with his lavish pretense. He fills a bucket of bible verses and splashes it in here like hog farmer. It's laughable!

Baptism is profound and holy. The very fact that Our Lord humbly offered Himself to the Baptism of John, (Matt 4: 13-17) and Holy Scripture making the event so great and memorable --Takes baptism to the highest level of importance for His followers. There are scarcely three or four greater moments in all the Gospel to command our attention and wonder!

Jackie, I'm very impressed that you have the depth of spirituality to recognize this importance. Not all Christians have this, even some much more mature than you. God bless you and give you happiness!

--Dear Mother Mary, we ask your holy intercession; Saint James, pray for this forum and its guests. Amen /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 02, 2001.

Eugene, thank you for what you said. There are many golden moments in the Bible...ones that stand out for me. Some wonder how He could have touched the leper. Because I know Jesus, I feel I can say I understand how He did that. Because I am a mother. And I have what Jesus had/has for all. Unconditional love. Some see their child vomit and they, too, vomit. Weak stomachs, I think. :) But I see a child that needs me. And there have been many times that I have held one of my children when they were covered in it and thus, me, too. It is with infinite gentleness and compassion that I clean my child and help them. When you truly love someone, you look past the outside. And see the inside. And besides, it all washes off anyways, doesn't it? It's the care that is given that stays with the child. My husband is amazed at how I have come to forgive those who have hurt me. Some I have not spoken to or seen in many years. Family. But through the grace of God, I am with my family again. Well, part, anyways. Some things are harder to get over than others. I'm sure you can understand that. I read the passage in the Bible about forgiveness. I'd heard it before. Read it before. But recently, it finally sank in. And I know that I can not expect Him to forgive me for the things I have done, if I can not forgive the ones who have done me wrong. Some, I have told that I forgive them. Others....God knows. For all my faults and sins, I truly love my Lord. I thank Him for what He did for me. He didn't have to. But He did. And I can not watch a movie where His death is depicted without sobbing uncontrollably. Doesn't matter if I've seen it once or a thousand times....it effects me profoundly. Thank you again, for what you said, Eugene. By the way...I hope your mother had a very nice birthday. Take care and God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.