Greetings: Do you know Jesus Christ? Are you saved read John 3:16-21 Romans 6:23, are you a slave to sin or Jesus who alone sets us free and makes us right in the eyes of God.Jesus is joy!!

-- Alex a follower of the prince of peace Jesus (Jesusislife@christianemail.com), January 29, 2001

Answers

Alex,

What in the world are you doing here? Please go away and stay away.
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Mr/Madam Moderator,
Is this young fellow (the main instigator of our recent fortnight of woe), actually permitted to come back and cause more trouble -- telling us (on the Baptism thread) that we have "blinded hearts?" He hates Catholicism. He seems incapable of stating anything reasoned and respectful here. I believe that his technical ability to post here should be terminated. Thank you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

Alex:

When you have graduated high school in about 3 or 4 years (judging by the intelligence and maturity you have displayed in previous posts) and after you have been out in the working world for say 10-15 years and have acquired the wisdom that comes with "service" and "good works"; come back to the forum, and we will discuss some of these points you feel so passionate about; provided you have gained a new- found respect for other people's beliefs!

God bless you Alex! St. James and Mary, Our Blessed Mother, help Alex to secure in life all the skills he requires to obtain ever-lasting happiness, and, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 30, 2001.

What Alex has posted here is TRUTH.

Can you argue with that?

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 30, 2001.

Susan Dear,
Good Catholics are already living that truth you speak of. The only thing AlexJr brings here is repeated slogans and buzz-words even though all of us know they are scriptural. With YOU and AlexJr, the bumper-sticker style of your faith is all God should ask a Christian; nothing but lip service.

I'm not saying there isn't some sincerity in your hearts. But your purpose and AlexJr's is mainly to insist that all the Church teaches is superfluous ! Why are we here supposed to tolerate this kind of insolent intrusion?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 30, 2001.

Eugene,

Someone who doesn't know Jesus might read Alex's questions, and eventually come to know Jesus. Some are to plant the seeds, some are to water the seeds, some are to reap the harvest.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 30, 2001.

You, Dear Susan-- and the ''reformers'' of the Church of the Apostles and their Lord-- now want to reap a harvest you did not plant. Instead of watering the seeds planted in Christ's Holy Church, you make weeds and thistles come up, as opposition to the Apostles, the Creed, and the Sacraments which Jesus Christ gave to His followers.

*An Enemy hath done this.*

Mother of Our Divine Saviour, pray for fallen-away Catholics! Dear James, Holy Apostle; your cause is our cause, in this forum. Pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 31, 2001.

Susan:

Haven't you read Frank's post (Moderator's Note)? No one is saved! There is no "free pass"! Satan loves anyone who takes salvation for granted. It makes his work so much easier. Faith is a discipline! To trivialize or simplify Christ's message is to dishonour Him and all who have joined Him on the Cross!

St. James and Mary, Our Blessed Mother, watch over and guide Susan! Ensure she plans for her eternal future and always has enough oil on hand for her lamp; and pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 31, 2001.

Yes Alex that is what the Catholic Church has said that salvation is in and through Christ alone. The pope stated this again in a document again a few monthe ago.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), January 31, 2001.

Ed,

I was intersted in your comment "No one is saved! There is no "free pass"!" This is at odds with the word of God which clearly says some people are saved, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 5:11-13 and many other verses. Before we can fall from grace we must be in grace to begin with, just as we cannot fall off a ladder unless we first get on it. The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace. Corinthians 6:2 also says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." Salvation means exactly what it says, that is, 'being in a state of being saved'.

This is not to be confused with losing that salvation which God may give you and which the Bible clearly warns us about. It is true that we must die to ourselves and follow Christ as the Bible says and this will take perserverance, especially in the western world with all it's distractions and self indulgences. We must endure to the end. However again this does not mean that we did not have salvation in the first place. We should look at the scriptures as a whole and not take one or two verses and make a case for our or our particular churches' beliefs and ignore all the other ones as we all tend to do at times.

-- frank denholm (fden@yahoo.com), February 01, 2001.

Dear Frank D. et al,
Let's not argue semantics. We all know, Catholics included, God gives salvation once-- in Holy Baptism. After that, a search for further salvations is not called for.

What these folks have at odds with the protestant claim is the notion of ''total security'' (I think that was the terminology)-- Protestants claim after being saved there is no possibility of ever needing to be saved again. Not even if you take God for granted (presumption) and live in sin again. They say all your future sins are irrelevant. That isn't semantical, it's just bad theology.

The Catholic Church also teaches: after Baptism (rebirth in Christ) no other baptism or salvation will ever be required. It's all done, by God's sacramental action. But subsequent mortal sin does-- it will cause your damnation-- unless Penance, a return to sanctifying grace through repentance and CONFESSION, (John 20, 21-23) washes away that sin. If death arrives and finds you in mortal sin, you are damned. The rebirth and grace received by baptism can be lost. This is why the Church urges all faithful to ''final perseverance''. Protestant teaching can result in the sin of presumption; indifference to sin and/or perseverance.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 02, 2001.

Frank:

Unfortunately some of what I am about to say, Eugene may have touched on. Salvation is not a "state of being" in this life. Due to the threat of evil, salvation is a journey with many detours and unforseen disasters that lie in wait for each of us. Salvation in this world is the act of “staying in grace” not the act of “being in a state of being saved”. What good is that if you fall from that state of being saved? One who is “saved” can be “unsaved” very quickly. The key is to walk a path of righteousness. Salvation is a ever-vigilant walk of faith, a journey, a struggle, a battle against evil, against human nature. Christ died for all men, but does that mean that all men are “saved”? NO! Does it mean that all men who say they are “saved”, are saved? NO!

I wholeheartedly agree that “we should look at scriptures as a whole and not take one or two verses and make a case...” which is exactly what you have done. Let us now look at the examples you have chosen to argue your position. Ephesians: 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9. not because of works, lest any man should boast.

If one reads the previous verses, it is clear the Author in speaking of grace, is referring to Jesus as a gift of grace from God. I also agree that “by grace we have been saved” but one must qualify this very broad statement by virtue of what else is said in the Bible, and even in this very passage you have selected. We cannot take this passage alone and run with it. We must follow the rest of God’s instructions, that is why the whole Book was written and not just this passage. We do not have the right to do as we like because we have been "saved", for it says this grace is bestowed through faith, we have been “saved through faith”. What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 tells us “faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Why would we need "hope", if we are “saved”? Why, if we are “saved”, must we concern ourselves of “things not seen”? I agree that the gift of salvation is “not of our own doing” it “is a gift of God” not earned by us “because of works, lest any man should boast” but to assume this passage is saying salvation is a gift with no conditions is absurd. Again, I agree, you must read the Bible in its entirety. Let's start with the very next verse of this passage you have chosen. “10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Now this must be really puzzling to one who is “saved”. Why must we “walk” in good works? It doesn’t make sense, until we realize the salvation, in this world, is a walk, a journey, to eternal happiness. The reward in not in this world by claiming one is “saved”; the real reward is in the next world based on how we have travelled on our journey, how we have fought the “good fight”.

The Bible does teach us we are “saved by grace” but it also teaches us we can fall from grace! “Now is the day of salvation” is not a reference to the termination of the “good fight” that everything is now over and all who are “saved” have everlasting happiness. It is a reference to the beginning of the end times, brought about by Jesus’ death on the cross.

Again, one cannot take 2 or 3 verses out of context to suit his own purpose. You haven’t even read your very own example in the context in which is was intended. John 13 states, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.” Did you not catch the word “NEAR”. “Near” to me, does not imply “saved”! To me it implies “available”, “close”, “nearby” “in the proximity of ” “nigh”. “NEAR” does not mean a “fait accompli”. The gift our good God has given us, certainly affords us the opportunity of salvation, however, by the word “near” there is a reminder that while close at hand, it has not yet been obtained. Clearly the Bible outlines salvation as a “work in progress” requiring righteousness, the search and acquisition of grace, good deeds/works, determination, growth etc.

While I found 51 passages that bear out the fact salvation is a “work in progress” in this world and not a state of being and that one can fall from a state of grace into disgrace quite easily; I will only only refer you to Romans Chapter 5 where the struggle for salvation is outlined as a salvation “to be obtained” not one that is “in hand”.

St. James and Mary, Our Immaculate Mother, pray for us!

God bless,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 02, 2001.

Ed,

Thank you for your reply. You infer that I have said that 'once saved, always saved'. I certainly said no such thing. You make some interesting points and I will go over them with you, hopefully later on today or tomorrow. I have too much to do right now.

Regards

-- frank denholm (fden@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

Ed,
Magnificent once again. I always learn from you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 02, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

Where is there apostles creed located in the bible?

who made it up, and where did it come from?..just wondering

-- genuine (genuine@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

Dear <
When You've read the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments, the source of the Apostle's Creed is very apparent. Every truth spoken in the Creed of God the Almighty Father is clearly shown in the Old. You may have to study in good faith to see clearly the Messianic prophesies pointing to a later (New Testament) coming of Jesus Christ. They are definitely there, genuine. Even passages pointing to the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist; in Genesis as shown in the sacrifices of Melchisedech, and in the last book, Malachias. (Our Creed doesn't treat of this. But belief in the Holy Catholic Church, which is a part of the Creed, must include that.)

The New Testament is what the latter clauses of the Apostles' Creed are all about. We believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Born of the Virin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, suffered, died, and was buried-- and on to His ascension into heaven, and His seat at the right hand of His Almighty Father, and His coming in glory to judge the living and the dead. Every pertinent truth the followers of Christ are to believe according to the Holy Apostles is in this Creed.

I've had protestants tell me very defiantly: ''No Creed is going to ever save anyone! Read your Bible, Gene!!!''

Yet, the same folks say we must believe in Jesus to be saved. And Jesus is what the Apostles teach, first the eleven, and also Paul, Jude, and the others! How does one believe in Jesus, but reject the ''Credo'' --(belief) of the men He sent into the world to spread the Gospel? WE MUST BELIEVE THE CREED OF THE APOSTLES, or we don't believe everything Jesus came to reveal to us. Our belief in Jesus is a fragment, without the Apostles' Creed.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 03, 2001.

like i said, who made it up?.. which apostle?

-- genuine (genuine@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

It isn't made up, Sir. It is comprised of the full Word of God, and came to us from the Holy Apostles. That is why it's the Apostles Creed.

Mary Immaculate, pray for all skeptics and for us, Amen. Pray, Saint James, that unbelievers may come to Christ Our Saviour! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 03, 2001.

Greetings: There are numerous passages that promise salvation through Christ. though we were near through the blood of Christ we are brought close in fellowship with the Father and the Son. Baptism doesnt make anyone right with God, nor does it save them because they are still slaves to sin. 1 Peter 3:21 Correponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good comscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It's when you come to God in Jesus name that he then can come and live inside of you and change you.

-- Alex is saved (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.

You HAVE changed, Alex Jr. You are getting stale. Haha!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

Greetings: He that is in me is greater then he that is the world, Jesus is life and thats whom I serve-mans doctrines are dry without life, thank you for revealing why you do what you do. Jesus is the living waters for the soul and his well never runs dry. No weapon formed against me shall prosper. Thank you Lord for the everlasting strengh. He is alive and there anyone who wants the joy of salvation.

-- Jesus is freedom (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.