I have a Sannen buck and doe with swollen knees. They are both limping. They both tested negative for CAE. I have felt along both legs and there doe not appear to be soreness in the leg or hoof. We have had terrible problems with their hooves, but they are not that bad at the present time. Could be foot rot but it is a coincidense that it is now both of them. I also have 2 nubians(just kidded) and a sannen/boer doe and wether. They appear fine. I have my feed mixed but don't know if they put selenium in or not. How much should they add? We live in SE GA. Any info is appreciated. Cindy

-- (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 06, 2001

Answers

Cindy, what is the conformation of their legs like? Poor conformation can put undue stress on the joints and cause swelling. Is it just the front knees, or are the hocks swollen, too? How old are they, and how long have they been limping? Sorry for so many questions!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 06, 2001.

According to my reference material, the CAE itself may be causing your problems. "Problems above hooves: These problems can result when the bones, joints, tendons, ligaments, vessels, muscles and nervous system are affected. Causes: Traumatic injuries (accidents) which break bones and sprain or dislocate joints; infections with bacteria and viruses (Staphylococcus spp., Streptococcus spp. Corynebacterium spp., Mycoplasma spp., Chlamydia psittaci). Caprine arthritis-encephalitis virus, which may infect the joints themselves or the spinal cord and brain. Deficiencies of essential vitamins (vitamin D and E) and minerals (selenium, calcium, phosphorus and cooper) which result in malformations and degeneration of nervous tissue, muscles, tendons, joints and bones. ... CAE virus causes chornic arthritis in adjult goats and rarely in young goats. One or several joints may be swollen and sore, and weight loss often is an after effect. When this virus affects young kids, they may become unable to stand."

If you have your own feed mixed, it may not have the essential vitamins and minerals in it, but that may not be the problem.

You might consider disposing of these goats and buying only from CAE-negative herds.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 07, 2001.

Ken, Thanks for all your info. Both of these goats are from CAE neg herds and have tested neg. They are otherwise acting fine with good appetites and no fever. Rebekah, DOn't mean to sound dumb but what do you mean by conformation? Their hocks are fine and it is the right front knee only on both.

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

Oops, didn't read too well. Thought post said positive.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 07, 2001.

Cindy,Since I am in NE Florida our soil is probably similar in mineral content.We are deficient in selenium and many other trace minerals. That said,I doubt it's selenium deficiency that is causing your problem.Sometimes some lines of goats have "just plain old fashioned arthritis".Also,we had a nice Nubian doe that tested negative for CAE three times then later tested positive.This was two years after we closed the herd to outside goats. If you think your feed may be deficient in trace minerals just add some kelp powder to the feed.Cheap,simple and most goats like the taste.

-- JT in Florida (gone2seed@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Were the blood tests for CAE ran by you and your vet? Where did you send them and were they Elissa or Agid tests? It is important to purchase CAE tested negative stock, but the real kicker is that they can easily convert to CAE positive after the stress of a move. I would retest before I start changing my feed. Most sacked feeds carry the minimum of vitamins and minerals in them. You can easily boost the amount of them with the use of a good loose mineral, we use Purina's 12 12. With both of the Sannens having bad feet and legs, and now swollen knees, it eaisly could be CAE, or they both could have foot rot, or simply very poor structure (conformation) of their feet and legs. He certainly wouldn't be a candidate for breeding at my place. I wouldn't want these front feet on all his doe kids I would be keeping, who needs hard to trim and keep up feet? Keopertox works great for clearning up hoof yuck, along with keeping their feet very short. You can usually tell if you have hoof or foot rot, by the smell, also the swelling would have heat in it. Having the vet pull the fluid from the bottom of knee swelling, if it contains blood than it would more than likely be trauma or infection, if it is clear, than have the fluid and some blood sent to Washington State Diagnositic Lab, 509-335-9696, with the white blood cells present in the knee fluid, you would get the most accurate test results back. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Vicki, I am not sure where the tests were run, I will call and ask.I have had these goats for 18 months so I know it is not from the move. Both knees are warm to touch in the front but don't appear red. It is also just one knee on each, their feet seem ok. Their hooves were overgrown when I got them and being a newbie it took me awhile to learn to trim them properly. Their hooves otherwise have been in good shape. I can't detect a smell in their hoof either. If it were CAE would the knee be hot. I have been giving both aspirin with no noticeable difference. I also checked with the feed mill and they put a pack of vigortone minerals in with each 500 lb feed and it does contain selenium.

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

I have had these goats for 18 months so I know it is not from the move. ..................

Actually this is just about the time frame in which CAE symptoms would appear, or we would see a test turning positive. We take with a huge grain of salt any CAE test ran at the farms in which the goats were born, always retesting at 120 days, even having said that a doe I purchased from a very well known herd in the spring of this year, tested positive on test this December after kidding. We not only spring blood test but then after kidding we send a sample of everyones colostrum to Pan American Labs in Austin, it has been an invaluable tool for us, it has twice now been the first hint of outside does converting after kidding. As we say, it isn't that big of a deal to have a 100% negative tested herd, the trick comes in that all these does are still negative after the sale.

I know that swiss breeds of diary goats, need much more calcium in their grain than Nubians, especially very fast growing yearling stock that is very bred. Bred to young and you can have bowed and very crooked legs. Also they are usually much more copper needy than Nubians, though I do raise a bloodline of Nubians that show copper defficency quickly if not managed correctly. Might want to retest, if you do get negative Elissa tests back, then I would definetly post this question to Joyce over at saanendoah.com The person this goat person goes to for my really tough problems. Vicki McGaugh

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

VIcki, I called the lab, it was done at UGA and it was aN AGID. They have supposedly updated to the Washington State standards. ? They were last done in May. If it is an infection would an antibiotic help? If so which one? the doe is due to kid probably around March. O am not sure what to do, even if I retest then what to do.How would I cull them wothout dumping them on someone else? Both were raised on bottles with no contact from Mom or so I have been told. Their leg appears stiff when trying to straighten it out. Thanks to all of you.

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

Here we go again, Tell me more aboout the copper defiency. I just have this gut feeling that this is a feed issue, not sure why though. Maybe it is denial. Their knee is warm but not hot. The doe has been limping a couple of weeks, the buck started yesterday. She was tested in May and had kidded in January. I guess one hangup is the fact that both occured so close together and same knee. All other joints are fine. they did not come from the same herd. She is three and he is not quite 2.All other goats appear fine. If I retest and positive what do you recommend?

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

Cindy, test them for CAE again, and send the blood in to WSU. They might be positive now even thhough they were negative when you bought them. Bottle feeding is not a sure prevention for CAE unless the kids are quarantined from all positive stock. I would want to have the test results before the doe kids, so that I could quarantine her and be diligent about taking the kids at birth and taking precautions with them.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 07, 2001.

About the conformation, for starters you want the front feet to point directly ahead of the animal and the dewclaws should be off the ground on strong pasterns. Front feet that turn out will out stress on the knee joints. The shoulder blades should be held tightly to the body. There should not be a big gap between the front leg and the chest wall where it joins the body. The two halves of the hoof itself should be held tightly together, not splayed apart, and the line where the hair starts on the hoof should be paralell to the bottom of the hoof. (this is a matter of hoof trimming in part). There is a really good book that I think all goat keepers should get, called Dairy Goat Judging Techniques, by Harvey Considine and Trimberger. It will give you a very detailed explanation of what to look for and why these traits matter, with lots of pictures and examples.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 07, 2001.

Ok, I went out and wahed their hooves nd trimmed again. That obviosly was part of the problem as the buck is now putting some weight on his. I gave him 2 more apirins and he seemed to perk up a bit. The doe's hooves are hard as a rock, I have never seeem them like this. Even the frog and heel were hard.Her's were way different than his. She has a sore between her "toes" on that leg. No discharge or oddor just a small sore. Their knees are really only slightly bigger than the other. Not noticeable to the eye but I can tell by wrapping my hand around them. Upon walking around I remembered the mineral block left over from our calves, could they have gotten too much of something as it was aded to their feed? I soaked her heel in warm water only to find minimal change. I could not even trim them. This has never happened before, I have always been the one doing the trimming. They were not really overgrown very much. No growing over the sides or anything. The hardness in the hooves was the same on all 4 hooves. Any suggestions?

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

Rebekah, All of the things you listed are fine on both goats.Feet point forward and toes together. I have a friend who owns a goat dairy to look at thenm not long after we got them. He discussed those areas but I did not realize it was conformation.Thanks for the explanation.

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 07, 2001.

I called the lab, it was done at UGA and it was aN AGID.

This is the old test and very unreliable. It is just easier to send our tests to Washington since they are the ones with the most up to date info on CAE and they forward the same blood to UC Davis for CL if you choose to test for both.

They have supposedly updated to the Washington State standards.

If this means they are now running Elissa tests with the same serum that Washington uses.......

If it is an infection would an antibiotic help?

If she is running a fever, it would likly be lowgrade if it is hoof or foot rot, and I wouldn't use any antibiotic on a bred doe unless I had to. I would however clear up the sore with kerpotox or bleach and water. Iodine will also work sprayed on to the feet and allowed to dry. I would be worried about the hardness this time of the year of all her hooves, and founder doesn't really show up in all the hooves. I would think that a simple sulfa like Albon, Diemthox or Sulfaquinoxiline would be the choice right now, since it does treat hoof rot and isn't as powerful as Tetracycline, which would discolor and soften teeth and bone.

How would I cull them wothout dumping them on someone else?

I didn't say to cull them, I did say that I certainly wouldn't use this buck as a breeding buck in my herd, castrate him and put him in the freezer after he has had time to stinken-down :) Same with her, if she isn't an excellent milker giving you excellent stock, you are the only one who can determine this for your needs, I certaninly wouldn't keep a doe who is having such an obvious structural problem, especially when the rest of your does are doing fine, not having to have this extra hoof care. If they do come back positive than another kind of problem starts, but should you cull them if you haven't tested everyone?

Both were raised on bottles with no contact from Mom or so I have been told.

And unless the next sentence was on heat treat colostrum and pasturised milk, the.....so I have been told, becomes that much more important.

Something I should probably have added to my post when everyone got so upset with me about my opinion on naturaly raising goats. You can only accept so much work, so much sickness, and so much death, before you are physically, emotionally and economically broke! Each person is different. As was pointed out to me by someone on this forum who is very wise. I accept zero mortality at my place, so yes I do go about things much more aggressively than others. In others a few kids lost here, a doe ruined by mastitis, is taken into stride. It really simply is that we all just do things very differently, with the same goal, healthy, happy animals. Unless you are buying breeding stock worth several hundred dollars, your first stock should be raised as brood stock. Keeping your kids that you have raised yourself, heat treated and pasturised as the core of your clean new herd is really the way to go. How I started. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Hi cindy,

wow!!!! Lots of great information and responses. I don't have too much more to add except that I would check the copper amount in your feed and add a bit more if its deficient. You can buy copper from jeffers or any of the other places. I wish you well and hope you don't have the agony of CAE, although its a possibility. Its not the end of the world, but as everyone else mentioned and especially vickie, you have to work hard to maintain the negative. But in the end all that heat treating, pasturization and bottle feeding will be worth it. Along with keeping the positives from the negative. Hang in there Cindy... you're on your way.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.

Well Cindy, if they do come up positive, you aren't the only person on the forum with the problem. My matriarch tested neg at my local vet twice and she had a swollen right knee and her fur wasn't nice and shiny and she had the hardest udder after kidding....I was rather certain she was positive, but I really didn't want to believe it, either! She also just wouldn't keep weight on. Well, I have mostly cae+ animals now because of a lack of knowledge on my part as well as the vets. But mine are all asymptomatic now with careful attention to their feed and trying not to stress them and they are real happy and productive. There seems to be more that is unknown about cae than is known. It isn't a good thing, but it can be dealt with to a large degree. Best of luck to you and definitely get the Washington State test done. Also be sure to test for CL as that is even worse to deal with than cae in my opinion.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), February 07, 2001.

Cindy

I would have those does re-tested for CAE ASAP. We test our entire herd at least annually. Every six months is not a bad regimen. That may seem excessive, but the peace of mind is important to us since we have a herd of thirty goats with eight pregnant does still to go this spring. We have four bucks and offer breeding service and show. There are always goats coming and going here as we build our stock. Bi-annual testing lessens the risk of spreading the disease if it should crop up. Kids can't be tested until at least six months old. Does can test negative for a year or two while being carriers and then suddenly test positive. Swollen knees are the classic symptom. If it is CAE and they are already symptomatic, putting them down may be the most humane option as they will only get worse. CAE positive does that are NOT symptomatic can lead otherwise healthy and productive lives with proper procedures to prevent spread of the disease.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), February 07, 2001.

Hi all, Good news to share, The buck is walking normally today! I am assuming his was a hoof prblem and maybe the knee was tender from holding his leg up. I am sloooooooooowly working on the does as they are so hard. I have been soaking them in warm water and then trimming a little at a time since it is hard on my hands. Thanks for all your help and I am going to have them retested asap. This is a great forum.

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), February 08, 2001.

Cindy do you have a belt sander? If you have someone help you hold the belt sander, than place the does foot, at the correct angle on the sander, it works very well for hard and overgrown feet. We use it on the older bucks. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.