Would like to get some feedback on the use of the Rapidwinder from Tom Abrahamsson and Leicas motor set up for the M6, Also any views on the practicality from a users point of view from Leicas original handgrip and that from Tom Abrahamssons.

Thanks Paul.

-- paul (longrange@swipnet.se), February 08, 2001

Answers

I don't have any experience w/ the Rapidwinder, but I do use a handgrip on my M6 w/ 50f2. I currently use the handgrip made by Leica and found it greatly improved the handling of the camera. It's relatively light and adds minimal bulk, so I intend to use it w/ all additional lenses and bodies I add to my system in the future.

I had used a metal handgrip made by a 3rd party supplier in the past, but prefer the lighter weight and ergonimics of the Leica grip. If you opt for a Rapidwinder, you may want to use the Abrahamsson handgrip which is compatible w/ the Rapidwinder. I don't think the Leica handgriop is compatible w/ the Rapidwinder.

-- KL Prager (www.pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), February 08, 2001.

The Rapidwinder is most useful for left-eyed shooters - you don't have to take your eye from the finder to wind the film. I've got one, and as a right-eyed shooter don't find it all that useful. It also bulks up the M6 too much for my taste. I don't find the winding action much faster than the thumb lever, and I also find it harder to use for vertical shots. As a result, I don't use it.

I also have one of Tom's grips. I find it too large for my hands, and the fact that it's made of metal means it doesn't feel as nice as the Leica grip. It does help the handling of the cammera with winder, though. I have Leica grips on all my M's, and wouldn't be without them.

I'm going to get one of the new motors when they come out, until then I use a Hexar RF if I need a motor.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul_chefurka@pmc-sierra.com), February 08, 2001.

Paul:

As a "left-eyed" shooter as referenced above, I thought the Abrahamson winder might be a usefull addition to my Leica gear. After trying one out, I decided I did not care for it -- I found that I had become so accustomed to focussing with with my left hand, that operating the rapidwinder actually slowed me down. Perhaps I didn't give it enough time. Anyway, now I'm waiting for one of the new motors to try out ;-)

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), February 08, 2001.

I'm a fan, as I've said many times on the LUG. I have two, one on each camera, and the normal baseplates languish in a drawer. The grip makes the whole thing work much better.

The only gripe I have is that the winder itself is easy to drop if you're in a hurry to change film - this happened to me recently while shooting a wedding (cold fingers) and the mounting flange bent out of shape. I smacked it with a hammer a couple of times and it now fits again.

I don't buy the "2.5 frames a second" hype for this gadget, the camera does shake a bit when you're winding on, but you never have to take the camera away from your eye.

I wind with my ring finger and little finger and use the other two fingers for focusing.

The rapidwinder is the best reason to buy a Leica!

Rob.

-- Robert Appleby (laintal@tin.it), February 08, 2001.

I tried out a Rapidwinder and did not like it at all. It wasn't any faster than using my thumb, added bulk to the camera, and that sharp, pointy trigger sticking out the bottom was just waiting to stab me somewhere. I own 2 M motors, a Winder M4-2 (late model that works with the M6) and a Winder-M. I got them both for a song, which is good because I've used them almost not at all. The M4-2 winder made a sharp jolting crack when it advanced, until I opened it up and adjusted the motor shaft. I also like the Winder-M because it has a tripod socket whereas the M4-2-type doesn't. I wouldn't think of spending hundreds on the new winder, even though it's smaller. I too have a Konica RF and it's the same size as the M6 but has a built- in motor. In keeping with the M6's mechanical design, it's a pity Tom doesn't make an auto-rapidwinder with a keywound spring inside, kind of like the old Robot Royal (for those who remember that far!) As for the M grip, I find the M is grippable enough as is. Anything that makes the M larger, and I'll go right to the R6.2 and not fiddle with the rest of the M's quaint idiosyncracies.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), February 08, 2001.

While I don't have any experience with the Rapidwinder or Leica motor, I can say that I just sold my handgrip on Ebay. Personally I like the M6 for its basic simplicity. I found that the grip slowed me up, particulary when shooting vertically and I did not like the way it changed the basic shape of the body. Obviously this is a personal choice and my needs are simple, I shoot for pleasure only and am under no pressure to "get the shot" that a motor might facilitate. If I miss, I miss.

-- Jeff Voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), February 08, 2001.

I migrated from Nikon to the Leica M. After divesting myself of all my Nikon gear (got to love that 105/2.5!), I found myself missing my MD4. I do not need a motorised camera very often but I did not want to invest in a whole other camera system for the few times I needed one. So I bought a used Winder M4-P. It was terrible! The noise was like a rifle going off and I quickly returned the nasty thing.

At the next Leica clinic, I asked the repair chap about this and he said it was repairable as the winder sounded like it was out of adjustment and had a worn damper. So I repurchased the same Winder and sent it off to Gerry at Kindermann Canada. Now it is very quiet and smooth, much less intrusive than the high pitched sounds that my MD4 produced. There are still a few odd quirks; on some cameras it does not like to be used below 1/50 and the infamous shutter button bounce is still there. For the few times I need it, it is just great.

I have since found a website that shows at least partially how to adjust the Winder M:

http://www2.bitstream.net/~campbell/

Leica-user postings say that the new Motor M naturally still bounces the shutter release up and down but appears to be quieter on the slow speed setting. I will try one when it comes along.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@home.com), February 10, 2001.

One thing I will say about the rapidwinder, having noticed that quite a few people have used one briefly and then returned it or sold it. It's a mechanical device which needs to be worn in a bit. I've found that my new winder is much stiffer, slower and jerkier than the older one, which has had a few hundred rolls through it. And I recall that I wasn't too happy with the old one when it was new. So I suspect it takes quite a while to get it up to speed. Well over the 15 or so rolls Tom mentions in his instructions. Another thing Tom says is that you should marry each winder to a separate body and not swap them around. I've marked the winders and their bodies to avoid this. I can believe it makes a difference.

The M is an unfortunate design in a lot of ways! The M winders I've tried - a couple - didn't turn me on. The rapidwinder, on the other hand, works well for me. Plus it looks cool!

Rob.

-- Robert Appleby (laintal@tin.it), February 10, 2001.

I use the RapidWinder with my M6TTL and I'm a right-eye dominant shooter.

The RW became butter-smooth very quickly and I like the feel, particularly when I'm doing action work. I always leave it on the camera now. When I'm doing low light work, I use the standard wind lever, however. It simply presents another option that I find useful. I keep a stock baseplate for when I want to make the camera smaller and lighter, or just pull the M4-P body instead.

The grip is beautifully made and better than the Leica grip but doesn't do anything for me, I didn't buy one after trying it out.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey DiGiorgi (ramarren@bayarea.net), February 11, 2001.

Godfrey, it's amusing you should say that about using the standard wind-on lever. I've often thought it would be neat to take it off, now I've got the rapidwinders on. The camera would be even more minimalist. But it'd certainly get me into trouble sooner or later.

Actually, I've also noticed that the newer winder wore in much faster than the older one. Possibly the shop that sold it to me had been fiddling with it or maybe it was second hand and the previous owner had done something to it. The new one is already worn in after just ten rolls or so.

This thread is probably comprehensively dead by now, but I just want to say - I love my rapidwinders!

-- Robert Appleby (laintal@tin.it), February 12, 2001.

I have no direct experience of the Rapidwinders and have only used the M4-2 Winder on my M6 occasionally. However in reference to the notion of shutter bounce, having 'played' with the new M6 Winder I can confirm the shutter button still thuds up and down and the winder is very audible. That said, I still consider it something I will buy in the future.

In terms of the handgrip I am a big fan of the Leica one, it seems to improve handling and makes carrying the camera with the strap around the wrist much easier.

-- Phil Coomes (philcoomes@talk21.com), February 12, 2001.

I have 2 Rapidwinders, one for a my M6 and the other for my M2. I like them primarily because when doing street photography rewinding from the bottom calls less attention to myself than conventional rewinding. It also does speed up the rewind in most situations. I don't use a basket on the M6 and have had no problems--outside of those one usually has with Leica loading, which is another story. The rewind lever is designed after the classical Leicavit's--which, I am sure, was inspired by the refill levers on fountain pens. It is pointed and you've got to be careful. I much prefer the more ergonomic Canon rapidwinder level (built in on the VT and separate for Barnack style Canons). I think that the new Rapidgrip is very good; but it could be problematic small or even medium sized hands. I like the protype's feel better than the one with the machined finger indent--though the latter has more inate tinkering possibilities. I took files to my improved version and in a month had reshaped it, covered the middle with leather and repainted it. I feels better. Still need a Softies with it. It is the ideal grip for a 50 f1 or a 70 f1.4 , neither of which I have. I did do something else--which I do not recommend you try unless you are reasonably good with you hands. I cut down a Leica grip to work with the Rapidwinder. With a hacksaw and a fine steal-cutting blade I cut diagonally, making sure there would be enough space for fingers when shooting. The cut should leave more room in back for the base of your thumb. There is a steal plate inside the grip and cutting it is not easy. File the cut so it is smooth. You'll have an ugly gaping hole in the middle of the base. Cut some thin leather to the shape of the inside base, making it a bit longer than the base. Glue it in and then stretch it so that it fits over the hole. Glue it into the hole with strong bond. You need the leather in the base whether the hole offends you or not. Left alone, the grip will wobble in the base of the Rapidwinder. The leather will secure it. I filed the grip's screw end a little. I also rounded out the edges on top with very fine sanding paper. Then I painted it with flat black, dabbing to make it crinkly. I love it, love it, love it. My Rapidgrip now spends most of its time on (so help me) my Canon P and has done much to revitalize that old war horse. In sum: The Rapidwinder--like all camera equipment--is not for everyone. It depends on how you shoot. National Geographic uses specially made Rapidwinders in the frozen Northland where the cold kills battery power, for example. The Rapidwinder is as quiet as the regular rewind lever, which is in keeping with one intent of the rangefinder camera and Leica in particular. It is best with wide angles which can be prefocused (you do tend to run out of hands as Stephan Gandy said) but I have found it very comfortable with my old 50mm Sumicron and 35mm Sumilux. A focusing tab is a definate plus. The other thing that is wonderful about the Rapidwinder is the caring afterservice of Tom Abrahamsson--I join others in declaring there is nothing like it in the camera world. In terms of weight, what it adds on is minimal (you subtract the weight of the bottom plate). There is a bit more of a weight problem with the Rapidgrip as there is a lot of aluminum on it. The Rapidgrip has two attractive features. Most important, it is hollow inside so you can carry extra batteries (a must for the M6 TTL, which apparently eats batteries rather quickly). It also has a hole on top for the Softy. This is useful if you are using a cable release, or just stashing the camera in your bag. With Softy you Leica shutter release button becomes a hair-trigger, a having the Softy off when not in use can save frames. On the whole, based on personal experience, I can cheerfully recommend the Rapidwinder and the Rapidgrip (with a few reservation regarding the latter). I found my Rapidwinder smooth from the beginning. I have yet to puncture anything or anyone with the lever--and I have never heard of either the Rapidwinder or the Leicavit being responsible for any punctures. Finally, I don't think its either / or between the Rapidwinder and the new Leica motordrive. You might use both (if you don't mind spending the extra cash). For quiet plus speed its the Rapidwinder. For speed and extra efficiency, and where noise is not a problem, you might use the motor.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@ppiij4u.or.jp), February 18, 2001.

A footnote to my thoughts on the Rapidwinder/Rapidgrip above.

When I went to a conference in Naples, Italy I took my M-6 with Rapidwinder and my two grips--modified Leica grip and modified Rapidgrip (see above for details on the grips). I've found using the Leica grip best for waist-level street shooting (my usual forte) and my leather covered Rapidgrip for interior shooting wide open with heavier lenses.

The conference was in Naples's historic Anglican Church. Lovely backgrounds, lovely lighting coming fromt the stained glass windows but darkish. I shot with my Summicron 50/f2 and new Voigtlander 28/ f1.9. The Rapidwinder was outfitted with the Rapidgrip. I shot wide open and around 1/30-1/15 sec. Shooting people reading papers is a piece of cake. They don't move much. But shooting the short play in the church, a two person modern version of Medea, was a challenge as the actors (both men incidently) moved around a lot. Through the aisles as well as the front make-shift stage. I expected most of my pix to be well-exposed blurs. In fact most were sharp. The Rapidwinder, Rapidgrip worked beautifully together. The grip steadied my hand very well. The Rapidwinder let me shoot quickly.

Another thing happened that's worthy of note. I dropped my Rapidwinder on my friends' Ignazio and Pamela's 19th century Neopolitan marble floor. (Never mind how.) The lip of the Rapidwinder was dented and could not fit back on to my M-6. My bottom plate was thousands of miles away. Fortunately, Ignazio is a craftsperson and he straightened out the lip with needle nose pliers and I got it back on, scratching but not damaging the M-6's lip. Ignazio handed me a couple of fine files and I very CAREFULLY cleaned away burrs from the injured part of the Rapidwinder with them. The Rapidwinder fit snuggly but well. The Rapidgrip probably saved the mechanics of the Rapidwinder. It came out with a slight dent and a patch of paint off. Home, I went over the Rapidwinder's injured lip with fine wetsanding paper (used dry) and then painted the scratched lip with flat black paint and covered it with a thin film of epoxy bond to keep it from chipping. (I used my finger.) All that remains of the accident is a slight dent and a scratch from Ignazio's needle nose pliers. Repainting the bald patch on the Rapidgrip was no sweat. Also, I experienced no light leaks.

Moral of story: You never appriciate the quality of your equipment until you drop it. (Not a form of equipment testing that I can recommend!) I appriciate the generousity of aluminum in the Rapidgrip base and the overall strength of the Rapidgrip. My injured Rapidwinder works perfectly, fits perfectly. Even with a few microns less aluminum where the dent is.

It was my good luck that the Rapidgrip was in place when the Rapidwinder dropped. The modified Leica might have shattered.

The more I use the Rapidwinder the more I love it. Same goes for the Rapidgrip (albeit redesigned by me). I will be getting my M-3 ss modified for a Rapidgrip presently (as soon as I can find an able craftsperson) and am seriously thinking of doing the same for my M-4.

Recently I tried out the new Leica M autowinder. Ergonomics very good but it is noisy. Also wouldn't work on my very old (c. 1984-1986) M-6. Frankly, I think I can shoot faster with the Rapidwinder. I may get the Leica autowinder at sometime in the future, but it isn't a priority right now.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4u.or.jp), July 21, 2001.

Excuse me. I'll have my M-3 modified for a Rapidwinder. The Rapidgrip by itself, let me add, works nicely on Leicas with the standard baseplate.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4u.or.jp), July 21, 2001.