When refering to giving medicine to goats: what is SQ? IMU? well, now I can't remember what the abbreviations were. Anyway explain for those of us that are slow. LOL! Also do not laugh. But how on earth do you take a goats temperature?!Do you use an ordinary thermometor? We got our goats a couple weeks ago. Two; a nubian/alpine cross ( expecting at the end of this month or the first of next) And a little fainter. Supposed to be about 6 months old. But she is so tiny. She has these little flat horns ( about 1/2 in long ) She looks real scruffy but is so sweet and dainty. Skin and bones underneath all that hair.

The momma to be is good size but she was raised by her momma. So she was and is still real skiddish. However she will eat out of our hands now. She will come to eat and sometimes will let me scratch her head. She really likes that.She has this thing on her face. An abcess, good size too, just under her right ear, on her cheek bone. The guy I bought her from offered to buy her back. He did not know she had it when we got her. But my little girl is really atached to them. It's a long story but she was promised these goats for three years now.

You know I thought to ask about CAE and he said he has them tested and nothing. So I figured Ok. Now I know about Cl too. But I was told not to drink the milk from her if she has CL. Is this just while she has the bump? After it is drained is it safe to drink? I want to keep her for my daughters sake but if we can't even drink her milk.? Well I don't know. I am thinking about trying to drain the thing after she has her baby. Do not want to stress her any more than necessary right now. Someone said to drain it with a large needle, someone else said to cut it out with a scalpal or razor and both said to clean really well with iodine. The guy I bought her from said not to drain it, sometimes it will go away. What do I do? Also I know they are not supposed to have chicken food, but they are crazy for rabbit pellets. Haven't given them much cause I don't know.

They also like the wheat thin look alikes from dollar general. Well thanks folks. Look forward to hearing from you about this.

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), February 14, 2001

Answers

Hey, Bonnie. You will probably get a lot of good answers to your question later on this morning, more qualified than myself, but I thought I'd give you my 2-cents. SQ means subcutaneous injection... it's the easiest to give; just find some loose skin around the neck or elbow, lift it up and put your injection there between the skin and the muscle. Of course, make sure whatever medicine you're using is supposed to go in like that! I use a 20 gauge 3/4" needle, they are small. IMJ is intramuscular injection; and I think this is given in the larger muscles like around the hind leg or fatty part in the lower shoulder, but I haven't had that pleasure yet!

I'd go ahead and worm your goats, too... never hurts. I've discovered Ivomec used orally. It's an injectable wormer for cows & swine... not approved for goats BUT... my vet and my shearer swear it's ok to use. I've been using it for 3 years and haven't had any problems at all. It gets a wide range of worms, too. Unfortunately, it's not cheap... about $30/bottle, but it'll last you a looooong time. Anyway, 1cc per 110# of body weight (if you overdose slightly, that won't hurt them). Draw it up with a needle & syringe; keep the needle in the bottle and just remove the syringe from the needle and squirt it in their mouth. If you're really worried if she has a bad worm infestation, do it again in 2-4 weeks. You could always take a sample to your vet before worming, too.

Not sure about taking the temperature, but I know you'll get some good feedback later. Good luck! Goats are wonderful. dh in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), February 14, 2001.

What an absolute shame Bonnie, and I am sorry for your little girl. Until you get rid of this abscess or it bursts on its own, further infecting the other goats, which are probably carriers anyway and infecting your barns, fences and ground, this is also zoonic according to Goat Medicine, and contagious to other species and humans, you really shouldn't let your daughter around this doe. The only time you wouldn't be able to drink the milk would be if an abscess was to burst in the udder. Got xray vision? because thats what it would take to know. Abscess burst in the lung and she will cough this all over your place and your child. Burst in the bladder...well I am sure you get it. Did you see the CAE test results? If he was serious about taking this animal back, I would have him take all the animals back and start over. Not only are these goats carrying a comunicable disease, but they will never have the kind of quality of life you would want for them, and that you will set your daughter up for this heart ache. Better the loss now than later.

And yes, you should completly remove the abscess surgically, lancing is a less than desirable way to manage this.

If you are going to keep her, I would have the surgery on the abscess now, waiting until she has her baby, and then needs to eat readily for her to make enough milk for the baby, plus be on antibiotics, is alot for the doe, and also the abscess could burst between now and then. Also remember hiding underneath all that winter hair are abscess small like erasers that can burst undetectible. Taking care of it now is a better idea.

I can't stress enough that this isn't the best way to start in stock. Especially when you are dealing with stock that is going to infect your place for years to come. If or usually when, your daugher wants one of her babies to be her 4H project, a health certificate will be impossible to obtain even for a local county show. You also in good conscience won't be able to sell these goats or their babies, to folks without telling them that they carry this disease. I am sorry this is so harsh, but the guy who sold you these goats, and the information that it will just go away, )it will go away, once they are no longer stressed it will hide in the system) he needs a good lesson in management or ethics!

Goats love rabbit pellets because the main ingredient in them is alfalfa. You can purchase alfalfa pellets for your goats, and their are lots of good feeds out their that have alfalfa pellets in them. Might want to go back through the forum and read about worming, nutrition, and CL. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Vicki,

Thank you for the good information. I never realized that CL (what does CL stand for-I'd like to do a search on it?) is contagious to humans and other animals. What are the symptoms? Can a carrier be in good health and show no outward sign of the disease? Is there a specific method of testing for CL, I know that you advised not using AGID? for CAE (is CAE zootic too?). Finally, is there treatment for CL?

Thank you (again) for your help.

Stacy Rohan--worried in Windsor, NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), February 14, 2001.

(what does CL stand for-I'd like to do a search on it?)

CL stands for Caseous Lymphadenitis. Goatworld.com has some very classic photos of it up, and have to belive saanendoah.com would have some stuff to read also.

What are the symptoms?

The only outward symptoms are the abscess themselves, but since all abscess aren't CL, you need to have the exude in the abscess tested. The most reliable test is at UC Davis, if you were to send the exude or blood into Pullman Washington with your blood for CAE, they forward the blood or exude to them. By the way, we have an old doe who lives at my brother in laws place, that is positive for CL on exude from a very obvious (lymph node involvement, like your doe) abscess, yet she continues to test negative on blood.

Can a carrier be in good health and show no outward sign of the disease?

Abosultly and this is the real probelm, especially with the new trend towards herbal remedies, unless you do the herbal rememdy and then necropsy the animal looking for abscess, you haven't really done anything. Even this doe of yours once she has this abscess removed and you have a positive test, very unlikely will have other abscesses unless she is stressed unduly from another sale, or bad storm, dog attack etc.

(is CAE zootic too?).

No, CAE is species specific, though they have found some interesting similarities between goats CAE and Sheep Scrapie.

Finally, is there treatment for CL?

In my honest opinion, no. Though you can eaisly get rid of the existing abcess on the outside of the body, you can not get rid of a disease like this, herpes etc. that hides in the bodies lymph and immune system. Yes you can drastically increase the over all health of the doe with herbs, immune boosting remedies, and a good management of the abscess, but it is not gone just hidden. And like we have found once a doe shows abscess on the outside of her body she more than likely has abscess on her lymphatic system inside her body. This will manifest itself with a weaken immune system, labored breathing as they grow around her lungs and heart.

Back in the olden days :) We simply had no idea what CAE and CL was. CAE we new ran in families and was arthritic in nature, now we are seeing more and more hard udders as the first symptom. CL we thought of as contagious boils, and lots of vets called this cancer. It took years of quarnateen, and the dismanteling of my original barn. I even ran a herd of boer goats several years ago, just to make sure the woods pen that I started with goats in was clean. It was. We sold and butchered the boers to see the insides to make sure we weren't having hidden abscess along with their negative blood tests. Its alot of work, and what heartbreak to have a wonderful doe you have raised from birth, come into milk with a hard udder with no milk, swollen knees as she became a yearling or with an abscess just as you were shaving her to take her to a show. All things that happened to me when I started out. Learn from others mistakes, and if you are serious about getting into goats, find someone local that is reputable. We all would love to help you! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Bite the bullet and get rid of the infected doe now.With the lump in the position you describe you can bet it's CL.This stuff is very contagious to both humans and other goats.Bribe daughter with a baby from a clean herd. Nothing wrong with herbal remedies.They just don't work on CL.Nothing else does either.Consider CL terminal.If a goat gets it she goes.At once and before the lump drains!You don't want this stuff in your soil.

-- JT Sessions (gone2seed@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Bonnie:

SQ: Subcutaneous, under the skin.

IM: Intramuscular, in the muscle.

IV: Intravenous, in the vein.

Do not drain the abcess as you will surely infect other goats if it is CL, but do get a goat vet opinion (few vets are knowledgeable or even care to be knowledgeable about goats). Never drain any abcess with a needle as this will only invite bacterial infection. The proper way to drain an abcess is with a scalpel at the lower end of the abcess so it will drain. IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion) if you want to have livestock, you need to be prepared for some vet bills to properly care for them. Just selling the goat my lead another unknowledgeable buyer to infect their herd. You don't know for sure that the lump is CL. Could be something else. Get a professional opinion. I don't know of any problem with using the milk even if it is CL.

Giving cracker treats sparingly is okay, but feed them mainly good quality grass hay and alfalfa and a grain mix formulated for goats.

The horn spurs just mean that whoever disbudded her did not do a real good job. We pull spurs off with the pliers when they get big enough to grab onto.

Get a rectal thermometer from the drug store and some KY jelly. Shake the thermometer down, coat the end with KY and insert rectally about 2 to 3 inches. Hold for about two minutes. You should have the goat in a stanchion to avoid any mishap. Have someone help hold her also. Some of our girls stand quietly for this procedure, but others turn into bucking broncos. Normal temp for an adult goat ranges from 101.5 to 104.0 F Measure the temp of your goat when she is eating normally and healthy for a baseline.

Here are some websites that can link you to a wealth of goat information online:

www.cybergoat.com

http://www.goatworld.com/911/

Please visit our Nubian herd at: http://www.sundaycreek.com/nubians.htm

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), February 14, 2001.