that her mother was. This was a hard winter here in Indiana! I fed and watered them all winter every day so I know it wasn't lack of feed. She and her twin brother ended up with "barrel bellies" that I attributed to worms. I wormed them last month and now they look normal enough. BUT they are small. Probably only 50-60# each or so. Any ideas as to what happened? They were born on Memorial Day 2000. Or is this normal size for this time of year? Their mother had bad ulcer sores and couldn't feed them well but they had plenty of feed and water otherwise.

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), February 19, 2001

Answers

I have two Saanen Alpine crosses-and though they are twins, the one is smaller than the other by a good bit. When they were 8 month the smaller one was at 70# and the larger at #85. They both are much bigger now-though still you can tell that the smaller one is more alpine-ish and the bigger one is more saanen-ish.

If they are healthy, worm free and eating well, I would gues they are normal. What are you feeding them?

Hope that helps-oh and thanks for the help on my post (milking troubles, about my doe with sores on her udder) I think I have tracked down the trouble, now we just need to treat it!

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), February 19, 2001.

I have had does that were half their dam's size at 8 months and kept right on growing until they were full sized. I feed them grain if they are bred at that age, so that they will have enough energy and nutrition to keep growing. If you can get a weigh tape or measure around them with a sewing tape, right around their chest just behind the front leg, it would be a better indication of weight. How old was their mother, and it sounds like she dam raised them? I am not sure what you mean by ulcer sores, were they only on the udder? what have they been eating, what kind of hay, grain, etc? If they were mine, and I was sure that they were disease free, I'd have a fecal test done, feed the doe small amounts of grain twice a day, and hold off breeding her until this fall. Sometimes they just get off to a bad start, but she will keep growing until she is three or four years old. It would be good to decide if she is really worth taking special care of until fall, or would it be better to sell her and get another one that would have a better chance.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 19, 2001.

I would suspect a case of cosidea (SP?). Have the vet do the fecal exam. It will stunt the growth of young animals, and doesn't always give them loose stools. We fought it on our place; I finally broke down and started to feed the replacement animals medicated feed (I know--horrors!!!--but we took them off of it when they were nine months or so old, and it made a world of difference in their growth rates!).

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), February 19, 2001.

I would think the worms set them back .Continue feeding plenty of hay and grain .Be more aggressive with worming .I would not wait to long to worm again .What are you using ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), February 19, 2001.

Hi Gailann, I think the answer lays in your question. A doe with udder sores, usually soremouth or staph, isn't going to let the kids nurse very much, and without the huge amounts of milk that she carried along with all the calcium for bone building they are normally going to be shy of the 90 to 100 pounds they really should be by now. A really good rule of thumb for diary stock is if you figure they were 8 pounds give or take at birth they should gain 10 pounds per month. So get a weigh tape, and 3 month kids should weigh 30 pounds plus their birth weight, 4 month kids, 40 pounds plus their birth weight, and your kids 9 months or 90 pounds plus their birth weight, once a year old this should calm down some, having most does at 17 to 24 months old, reaching minimum breed standards, which for your alpines should be 135 pounds and 30 inches tall from their front hoof to thier withers, the pointy things on top of thier shoulders. Always bring a weigh tape with you when you are buying stock, and use it as a tool to purchase only the most aggressively growing kids out of the bunch. Once your herd grows to the point that you aren't going to keep every doe kid born, use this guidline, along with really nice feet and legs, especially splay toes and crooked front feet, and hocks (rear leg elbows) that come together in the back, as your culling tools, keeping the best of your breedings for your own stock. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 19, 2001.

Hi Gailann, I raise alpines too. i do know that there are some bloodlines that are slowmaturing and don't bloom til 3-4 yrs old. However, that does not appear to perhaps be the case in this situation, although it may be in there too. Hard to say without knowing the lines. But as Vickie mentioned the sores certainly didn't promote the necessary milk they needed during their vital times. did you treat for coccidoious? (sp) It may be that that may have played a role in it too. One thing you might try is feeding in addition to their grain minerals if you are not. Also..... and I know some folks are gonna roll over here...... but try giving them a little goat milk and see if they will drink it, it may help them grow a little more. This is a trick one alpine breeder i know uses when her doe kids are small and she wants them to become growthy. I myself have not tried it yet. But see how they do in the next few months. Give them a little opportunity to grow and then decide what you want to do.

-- Bernice (geminogoats@yahoo.com), February 19, 2001.

Looks like everything has pretty well been covered.I would second the guess on coccidiosis.This damages the intestinal lining and the young goat is unable to get sufficient nourishment from it's food.If this is the case,it won't make much of a milker either. We had this happen with one of our first Nubians.Had no idea there was such a thing as cocci.Took the little doe to the vet and that was her diagnosis.She (the goat) recovered and grew into a beauty but very small.Freshened with a huge udder and plenty of milk but couldn't support it.Production dropped off quickly.She could only support a couple of quarts a day at her best. before you give up on them use the weight tape.Size can fool you. If that 60 pounds is actually a 75 or 80 you are ok.

-- JT Sessions (gone2seed@hotmail.com), February 19, 2001.

The size of a kid is directly proportional to how much milk they get during their first three months. We bottle feed keeper does for a full twelve weeks and they always outgrow those who are only fed for eight weeks (the minimum). If they were not getting all the milk they wanted during this period that is probably the reason for their small size.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), February 19, 2001.

Thanks everyone! Sounds like I have several things I'm fighting. I will weigh her and see how much she really is. Perhaps she's bigger than what she seems. Thanks again, Vicki. I knew that there would be some repercussions from those udder sores. That staph infection was nasty. She seems to be really healthy and happy. I brought home my Obers from the breeder and I plan to worm them all and de-lice them all. I will get the anti-cocci feed from the feed store and see what happens. I didn't realize that it can take them 3-4 years to grow completely. I guess that makes sense. Horses sometimes don't mature until 5 or 6.

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), February 20, 2001.