Chalking up another one for the collective subconscious - Beth's recent mailing list news that she's up and gone to grad school came just as I've spent the past few weeks researching local (Chicago) MA Classics programs.

That is at least two years down the line, in reality - barring a sudden and sustained influx of cash, and even then it will be part-time.

I'm 7 years out of college and balk at the thought of having to take the GRE and have no idea who on earth could write recommendations for me. Grad school seems like this enormous and scary prospect, as alien a sector as going to undergrad was.

Anyone out there going back or already in grad school? Got helpful hints for dealing with the whole thing?

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

Answers

Gabby, you just identified exactly why I'm doing a part-time masters program that doesn't require the GRE for entrance. I graduated from college eleven years ago, and I don't have time to take the GRE. Or the money for a full time program. Or the time.

I was looking through a reading list for this English program, and I realized that although I had read nearly everything on the list, in some cases it had been 14 years. (Remember 1986? I don't.) So I made myself a reading list for the next six months, and I'm finally glad I never tossed my Norton's Anthologies. I'm also brushing up on my American history, because I'm historically clueless, and I have an obsession with understanding the historical and social context of any piece of literature I read.

Obviously I don't have any real advice since I'm in the same boat you're in, but I will tell you my approach: I'm doing this for fun and, well, self-improvement, I guess. It's not part of some larger career objective or to please my parents or to put off the real world for another couple of years, which makes this a completely different experience from college and law school. I intend to be pretty tough on myself in terms of studying and grades, but that's just my self- flagellating personality; I feel like I have to atone for all the time and money I wasted in college (I got a degree and a decent GPA, but I sure didn't learn much).

But the big thing is, it's all for me. No one else cares how I do here. It won't change my life after it's all over (or at least, that's not the plan). So there's a whole level of stress that just isn't there this time around.

It'll be FUN, Gabby. I'm glad to hear you're thinking about it, because you definitely strike me as someone who's happiest when she's learning something.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

As opposed to me, who's happiest when he's absorbing life wisdom from King of the Hill with a cold Bass on hand.

~

I've always said that the only formal education I'll ever pursue will be after I'm self-sustaining and can afford a year or two in Edinburgh or St. Andrews, to work on a master's in philosophy.

I wonder if I should start forging my recommendations now, as I can't think of a single professor who could write "committed to academia" with a straight face when it came to me . . .

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

I just started graduate school this fall, after taking three years off to do something totally unrelated. It's definitely a mental shift being a full time student again, but in general I'm enjoying it. I find that my classmates who did take time off, even if it was only a year or two, have a much better perspective on things than those who came straight from college.

As far as GREs/recommendations go, I was organized for once in my life and got that done before I graduated, so that if I ever did decide to go back I'd have them. For those of you still in college, I HIGHLY recommend doing that, even if you're not sure what your plans are. It doesn't take that long, and you can keep the scores and recommendations on file. Other than that...the GRE really isn't that difficult. If anything, the math section was easier than the SAT. There are always those prep classes, and they make computer practice tests and review sections. I bet you could even find those at the library if you want to go cheap. Recommendations might be harder, but if there was a professor who knew you at all you can probably get them to write at least a generic letter for you. I think most schools will let you ask employers to write some of the letters too. You can always call up the program you're applying to and ask for their advice - I'm sure it's not the first time they've been asked.

What I'm really liking about grad school, now that I'm here, is that in a lot of ways it's pretty low key. There are fewer requirements, at least in my program, and more room to take classes that interest me. People are less focused on grades, and more excited about exploring new ideas. I feel like I can pace myself...I need to catch up on a bunch of missing prerequisites, and so far that's been working fine. Obviously every program is different, but I haven't found it as overwhelming as I worried I might.

Whatever you both decide, good luck!

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

University of Chicago has about the best Classics program in North America - I always used to dream about doing my Ph.D. there.

I am not heading back to Grad school, although i think about it all the time - mostly because like everyone else, I can't imagine how I would ever find an academic reference. My sights are much lower than Gabby or Beth's - I am looking for spanish classes in Chicago that won't cost me thousands of dollars (goodbye, Northwestern!). I thought they might be helpful, living in the States. I am recently tempted to start on a masters of Computer Science though. Until I saw how much it would cost.

You probably already know this Gabby, but if you are really getting into Classics, all major universities with Classics departments have digs going on around the world - many classics profs have their own side projects, and if you are looking for a hands-on intro to Classics, these digs are great fun to work on, and you get course credit, and you can suck up for an academic reference.

Ex: http://www.arts.ubc.ca/cnrs/stymphal/

Bonus - if you sign up through a Canadian U., you pay in American funds, ie many thousands of dollars less - plus, the credit cost of Canadian schools is much, much cheaper anyway. There are tonnes of these programs out there, and usually huge binders of them available in the secretary's office of the department.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

I took off 6 years between undergrad and grad school and it was amazing how easy it was to fall back into the academic world. I also thought the GREs were easy. I think the only studying I did for them was taking one practice test and I scored better than I did on the SAT. If you have a decent vocabulary (which you clearly do) and basic math skills, you'll do fine. Actually, your math score probably won't even matter if you're applying to classics programs. I think most graduate programs just use the GREs to screen out totally hopeless cases--it's not really used to evaluate people as the SATs are for undergrad admissions.

Recommendations can also be a problem, but I think at most places you can have non-academics write many of them (e.g. former employers).

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

I just finished grad school in May of 2000, and I do miss it so. I went straight away after undergrad, because I'm a lazy, slothly fool.

I wouldn't worry too much about the GREs. Just a souped up version of the SATs, with the analytical part thrown in for good measure (which really were all just like word puzzles - I liked them a lot). My experience was that the grad school had to accept them (for some kind of organization certification), but it was mainly up to my program to accept me into the ranks. The grad school "rubberstamped" the decisions of the program, so to speak.

Also, recommendation wise - non-academics are good, too, as long as they can evaluate how you'd do in an academic environment. I only had one academic reference in my app, and I got in and survived just well.

Several other ideas - one of my friends applied to a program and got conditionally accepted - she had to take a couple of classes part time before getting accepted full time into the program. Another friend of mine worked at a university and was able to take a grad class here and there for free, and by the time she finally applied, she was familiar with the program and the profs. She got in, no prob.

Good luck. I loved grad school. I loved even more that my program didn't require a thesis. Woo Hoo!

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

As far as Spanish courses in Chicago - I don't have a copy on me, but I always see ads for language schools in the Reader. Also, given our enormous Latino population, I bet you could advertise for a native speaker to tutor you and get solid responses.

I circle around the U. of C. like a nervous butterfly. It and I have a long and mythical relationship. It rose up out of the mysts during my junior year of high school and after negotiations and interviews and nerve-wracking essay writing and visiting, I was wait-listed, then admitted - but I couldn't afford it. There are few places in this world with which I have fallen in love; U. of C. is one.

The info packet from the Classics Department arrived two weeks ago. Ai yi yi. Incredible. So I'm on my own self-study course to catch up. I've got the literature (although it was all in high school) and I'm about to get cranking on Latin. It's simply that Chicago looms large in the intellectual mythos, you know? I am a mere ant in its presence.

My coworker said that his wife had an in with a faculty person (at the school she did her grad work at) and managed to get out of the GRE, as she'd been in the work force for several years, out of the range of yon ivory tower. That sounds pretty good to me.

Next step is to send away for my college transcripts and find out if they ever fixed my grade from the Lit Theory course I took in Scotland. At the time, I presented the info, explained the error, but didn't need to follow up as I wasn't going anywhere it mattered.

As for the why - I want to be a teacher, and a night in a bar with people who, for reasons I can't begin to fathom believe in me, helped me see that I'm an idiot to not carpe diem. And I had the most fun in high school in my Great Books classes - had my life changed. I'd like to return the favor

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

My only advice on the recommendation front (as someone who got an MS after being out of college for five years) is that you shouldn't assume that various professors won't remember you, or be willing to write you a recommendation even if they only vaguely remember you. I got in touch with two of my professors who I was SURE wouldn't remember me, and both of them did, and were willing to write recommendations. It can't hurt to ask, and if you preface it with, "I'm not sure if you'll remember me, but...", you've given the person an out if they don't remember you. One of my profs asked to see samples of my work at the time, which I luckily still had.

And I agree with what a lot of others said here -- the GREs just aren't that hard. Try a few sample tests and see how you do. I had to study up a bit on the math, because it had been years since I'd done any of that, but the English and especially the analytical were really, really easy.

Then again, it all depends on how competitive the program is. I found grad school kind of refreshing because most of the students had spent some time in the workforce and were there because they wanted to learn something, not because their parents were paying for it, or because they thought they had to be. It was a very different (and much more rewarding) experience compared to my undergrad years.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

I went to grad school two years after I graduated college, and I did it then because I wanted recommendations to be fresh. One was from someone I worked for. My experience was different because I went to a professional type program. If you have someone who knows your writing that might be good too. Don't be shy about asking old professors. Send them an email, send them copies of your old papers. You paid for college. They know its part of the obligation. If they don't, they should be reminded :) You might want to see if the college you went to has any suggestions for alumni. Also remember: people go to law school 20 years after they graduate college. They get recs from their profs. Just ask! Especially since you plan to go into something as academically high minded as classics, people might be eager to help. You might want to have your personal statement written in advance. I think the GRE is easier than the SAT, personally, plus they have those fun logic puzzles in the third section (well, I thought they were fun). It is a total drag, though. The study books are worth it.
I think Kristin's idea about the dig is excellent. You can probably find a way to go for 2 weeks and get an idea of what is involved with that.
The only suggestion I have about grad school is *not* to be awed by it. Take the bull by the horns. If you are not happy, say so to someone in the department who is in charge of student affairs. Bother your professors. Try to get the classes you like, not whatever you can get. Be pro active. I would say that about undergraduate education too, but I was too immature to dig it at the time.
RE: Spanish classes in Chicago: UIC? there are also city colleges in chicago that I'm sure would be fine for learning spanish.


-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

The verbal portion of any ETS test will be a snap. The math and analytical, however, are out of the question. I've looked at them and I don't understand them, at all. I recall the math portion of the SAT as being a nightmare (I got a 480, I think) - I had never seen math like that before in my life, and I was in pre-Calculus at the time, 3 1/2 years of high school math under my belt. As for logic, I can't do those kind of problems - and I've tried. The way I understand things does not match the way ETS would like me to understand things.

As a rule, I am not good at standardized tests.

However! I found the U. of C's Graduate Student at Large program last night, where I can take courses for credit and a grade, without enrolling as a full time student. So this is very good news indeed - because if I can get a few real Classics courses and grades (with the option to transfer them toward a degree later), it will make up for the poor performance on the GRE if I have to take it.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

The GRE was easier than the SATs, I thought. I got the Princeton Review book and worked through it beforehand. I should have done some more work on the logic puzzles, because I ran out of time on those, but journalism schools only care about the verbal score and that's what I was taking it for. I later learned that some grad schools use the GREs to award first year financial aid, since it's the only "standard" tool they have to compare people from different departments and different backgrounds. I did not take any subject GREs.

Recommendations were a problem after seven years but I used bosses for two of them and the one professor I'd kept in contact with for the third. Again, this was journalism school, and one reason I chose it was fear of having to find three academic recommendations, especially since I went to engineering school and most of my classes had hundreds of people in them.

And if you haven't looked at your undergrad transcript since graduating, do. I found one of my Bs had changed back into an Incomplete. Luckily the professor was still alive and there was also a nice guy in the Dean's Office who had a record of the B and was able to get the record fixed.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Good for you, Gabby. But you might not be lost on the GRE; that kind of analytical difficulty with logic problems can be overcome. I had the same problem with the multiple choice questions on the bar exam the first few times I took practice tests. The trick is to do a ton of sample questions, and when you compare your wrong answers to the correct answers, force yourself to stop focusing on making the answer make sense in the real world (i.e., the way it makes sense to you), but instead focus on making it make sense in the world of the exam. Treat it like studying a foreign language. Eventually you'll grasp the logic patterns at work, even if they still seem insane to you.

At least, that's how I deal with standardized multiple choice tests. I don't do well with multiple choice, but if I treat it like a code or a foreign language, I can work it out.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Well, i'm not exactly in the same situation - i'm not going to grad school, mostly because, uh, i never went to university. For some reason i decided that it was more important to work, and i have long regretted it. Here in Quebec we have college before university, which i did so i am caught in the limbo between high school and university. It has translated to random work and low salaries - lower than i know i deserve.

So i'm going to school too, as of May 23rd. I can't wait. It's a private college in the Travel and Tourism industry - Tourism has interested me for years but for some reason it never sank in that maybe my interest should translate into "DO IT!"

I'm doing it. And i'm scared. I'm only 26 but i was 19 the last time i was in school. It's been a long time since i had to read anything other than a magazine or fictional novel. My Geography days, though they were good, are long past. I don't know if i remember how to take notes, how to study, how to learn. I'm terrified of the homework, the quizzes, the tests, the midterms and finals. I'm scared of not being as smart as i think and hope i am. I'm equally scared of getting all A grades - and that's a ridiculous fear because that would obviously be a Good Thing.

I'm so scared of this looming change, but at the same time it's the first thing i'm excited about for ME in a long time. Lately i've been excited over someone else's good news, or stuff like my engagement which is more "we" than "me". This schooling, this new career path, that's all me. It's mine, and i practically tremble when i think about it because i'm ecstatic and i can't wait.

But the fear thing is definitely there, so reading about the rest of you and your worries are helpful to me too, even if it's a far cry from grad school.

Thanks for the shared encouragement.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Beth, you're going to Grad School? That's awesome (or, dare I say, wicked awesome!). See what I miss out on not being on this mailing list?

I've thought about grad school now and then. When I was an undergrad I was convinced that I was going to go right to grad school as soon as I got my B.A. (and I don't mean Baraccus). I don't know why I didn't. I think I never really had my shit together as far as college went, I didn't really know what I was doing and I never went to one of those small schools where they hold your hand. I had (and still have) no idea what the process is for applying to grad school, so I just never did it. Finally in my last semester I decided I would work for a year to save money and pay off my debts (still hasn't happened), join the peace corps for two years, then come back and go to school.

That was in 1996. I'm still working my career job.

There's a part of me that still thinks about going back, but as my life is now I have tons of projects I can't seem to make time for, and I live paycheck to paycheck with a career job. I can't fathom how I would either continue to work full time and throw classes and papers on top of that, or give up my salary to be a full time student.

That and I have no idea what I want to study. My degree is in anthropology but I don't want to go to grad school for that. I'm really interested in economics but it seems like more and more economics programs are becoming business programs, rather than an analytical science.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Gabby, you and I are soul-sisters on the whole "what the hell is this math?" thing. I waited to go back to school after the kids were in grade school and the GRE scared me witless. I hated math (and I'd placed out of two levels of college undergrad math through total luck, I think). I got one of those big GRE study books (actually, I got two, and went through both of them) and by the time I had to take the math, I didn't do horribly. Luckily, since I was going into programs (I did one masters and one MFA) where the emphasis was on verbal / writing ability (and analytical for the philosophy, which I loved)... they neither of them much cared what the math score was as long as my other ones were high enough and the math wasn't totally in the gutter.

And it wasn't, surprisingly -- after that much studying, it really did improve.

But mostly, I wanted to say how much I loved grad school. I didn't really ever feel like I was learning something that would advance me toward my goals (and the MFA was supposed to have done that), but I *did* thrive with the intellectual interaction and I miss it. I was just telling Dora (from Words Diminish) not long ago that my brain is already starting to turn to total mush -- and this is just after being out for four years. I know I learned a lot (I was a slacker in undergrad for the first couple of years and finally kicked in gear and made up for that, but the GPA suffered... so it was a real point for me to do a 4.0 in grad school, which wasn't as hard as that sounds)... but like Beth said above somewhere, I sure as hell don't remember most of it. I've been reading a lot, lately -- and like Beth, want to start pulling out my old history books.

Hope all of you considering it have a ball.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Just wondering: how important are math scores on the GRE for schools when you have no intention of doing anything remotely math-related in school? I know there is absolutely no way I could pass the GRE because I was so horrible at math I never got past algebra 2.

Okay, realistically I know I can't go to grad school 'cause I'm so dumb, but I'm curious.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2001

Well, according to my copy of Kaplan's guide to the GRE (which I bought last night), actual scores in each of the 3 sections matter much less to schools than the percentile ranking of your score as opposed to (per ETS' ranking methods) how your score compares to other scores from randomly selected tests over X number of years.

This is to say that a perfect 800 on the verbal section may rank only in the 94th percentile because a high number of other test takers from those randomly selected tests also scored 800, thus making it impossible for anyone with an 800 to rank above the 94th percentile.

Sound like bizarre voodoo math to you? Yeah, me too. But I have come to view the ETS as a group of transplanted witch doctors.

As an aside, _The Big Test_ by Nicholas Lemann is a fascinating look into the history of the ETS and standardized testing.

Also, while at Borders last night, I discovered that the SAT has been radically altered. There are two of them now. Great Ceasar's ghost, I'm glad I'm out of compulsory school.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2001

This is so timely for me. I've gotten a book to brush up on my verbal skills (and, gasp, math! the horror.) for taking the GRE. For some reason I think that 10 years to get an undergrad isn't enough in school... now I'd like at least a master's. (pay attention to that *at least* part.)

But I have a question. For those who didn't choose a school that simply for location (close by), what's the best way to choose/research programs? Is there some secret handshake I need? Any advice? (I've been to embark.com, but the site takes forever to navigate.)

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2001

Granted, my choice is limited (I want to study Classics, and stay in Chicago - this leaves me with 3 schools), but here's how I still compare and contrast:

1. Go to the school's web site and find the department home page. I look at the faculty for the department, where they got their degrees, what their interests in the field are, what they've published, whether it jibes with my interests (e.g., is this a liberal or conservative department?. If they're really on the ball, they have homepages for courses so I can read the syllabi and get a feel for the profs' teaching style. Better still, those rare instances of students with homepages about their field of study.

2. Check one of those handbooks for programs in your field. I found a bunch from Peterson's last night - from Nursing to Social Sciences. These contain the cold hard facts: percentage who apply, percentage accepted, percentage enrolled; GRE scores; number of people in the department (students and faculty).

3. I also pick up something like the Insiders Guide to the Colleges - though aimed at undergrads-to-be, it helps give you a feel for the vibe of the campus: party crazy or study intensive?

4. See if you can get ahold of current students or recent graduates of the program and/or school you're looking at. Talk to them, take 'em out to lunch, send email if you don't know them. I'm guessing that people who get Masters Degrees are hardcore about their work - love what they do.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2001

Thanks Gabby... I've been doing those type things, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track.

BTW - I by no means meant my earlier post to in any way say that going to a grad school for location is not a good thing. The most important thing is that you get to get the extra knowledge.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

I've never heard of not having to take the GRE if you go part-time - bully if there are such programs out there. I had to take the GMAT to get into B-school, even though I'm going part-time, as well.

I took six years in between undergrad and grad school. I decided to go because I was hitting that ceiling pretty damned quick. Even just GOING to school while working has given me career bumps up the ladder that I would not have achieved otherwise.

The biggest change for me is the self-discipline. After-work and weekend time has not been truly my own for three years. I honestly don't know what I'll do when I graduate this December, except perhaps take a week off to read books for pleasure...

And Beth, I admire you for taking on Chaucer et al. I can't stomach that stuff. (Except for Shakespeare. Love Shakespeare.) I remember having to read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight back in 8th grade and just not being happy about it...

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Now see, you shouldn't be admiring me for the Chaucer and whatnot. I love Chaucer. This is fun. You can admire me if I ever sign up for a course covering the complete works of Stephen King or something, because then I'll be suffering for the pursuit of knowledge. Or something like that.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Well, having just finished grad school, I would recommend it. I decided to go because I wanted to use my brain again, and use it on things I was interested in (instead of things my various employers were interested in). I had to take the GREs and do okay on the math because I was going to an economic history program at a pretty highpowered economics place, so you have to look like you'll do decently in economics. At least that's what everyone told me --but when I got there I was suprised at the low level of math and economics skills in my fellow students.

anyway, I had a great time. I am back in job-search land again, and it's okay, but I will surely be gong back for a phd eventually. I love research and writing and I would like to teach (I think) as well.

survival tips: do the readings. really do them. in undergrad lots of people don't and then cram for exams, but the best part of grad school is either the reading list or (if you're lucky) the chance to discuss readings with smart fellow students. Also go to the library of your school and look at the journals in your field and at least check out the article titles and maybe the abstracts of things that look interesting. do this regularly, or as a break from your required readings.

other than that I think my best tip is to eat well. take time to prepare (or buy if you can) good food. I neglected mybody something shocking at times, because i was too busy with my brain. but then my brain would get cranky.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

How do most of you folks support yourself through grad school? Do most of you work full time and take one or two night classes a semester? Are you on scholarship or loans? Did you just save up and pay for it? Did you have to take a huge cut in your standard of living?

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

David,

I've been doing my grad work -- just as I did my undergrad -- the really, reeeeally sloooooooow way: One class (maybe two) at a time.

As for how I handle it financially: I work. Full-time. Full-time plus, in fact. In an earlier post, someone mentioned not having evenings or weekends -- that's exactly how it is. Your time is not "your own," as we usually understand it. No movies. No eating out, random hangings-out with friends. Definitely no weekend jaunts, or just "sleeping in." Every moment is precious...and there's always, ALWAYS something you're behind on, something you should be doing.

But-- It can be exhilirating, too. What's so exciting about endless free time, anyway? In my case it only tends to get taken up by television anyhow (right now the big thing is BBCA -- "EastEnders" three times a week, "Monarch of the Glen" from Scotland, "Eureka Street" from Ireland). Time spent reading Dickens is NOT a punishment!

Finances-wise, yes, I work -- and my boyfriend of 12+ years does, too, so we manage to do okay. (We have enough to support my expensive British toaster-buying, for example, or the new Gaggia grinder imported from Italy that just arrived this morning). Money-wise, we're doing okay -- but I think the area where we feel the impact most is in free time, as in time available to spend with each other.

And that's it, the point I didn't know I was going to make until now: If you're going back to grad school, fantastic! Only...it's so, so much easier, if you're part of a couple, if your partner supports you in it. I don't think I could do it, otherwise.

Sei

P.S. I believe you about the forum, Beth. And I'm going to start updating again soon, really I am. ^_-

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Part of the reason I'm doing this is to help Jeremy out. He's been working full time and going to school in the evenings for years now, and it's really, really hard when all of your friends are out of school. There are times when he really needs to stay home and study, but he gets talked out of it, or I'm lying around on the sofa eating bonbons, or I want to go to a movie, or I have the TV on, or I just want to chat. It's hard for him. Our hope is that if I'm studying too, we'll get into a busy student schedule and be more resistant to peer pressure from folks who aren't in school.

Even just the last few days have been good, because I'm reading all the time. That makes it a little easier for him to shut himself up in the kitchen and do calculus.

Since we'll both be in school at night, we're already making plans to meet after class for Vietnamese food or coffee/studying before we go home. We're also going to have to break down and get cell phones, since we'll be trading off on dog duty.

I just don't see it as a terrible burden, though, in terms of time or not having a life. I see it more as an excuse to get some reading done, and not feel like I'm slacking on something I should do instead.

Oh, and as for paying for it: that's the other reason I'm going to a state college; for part time students it's only about $650 a semester.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

From Beth: I just don't see it as a terrible burden, though, in terms of time or not having a life. I see it more as an excuse to get some reading done, and not feel like I'm slacking on something I should do instead.

From Me: You gots it, girlfriend. It's not a "burden" at all -- it's a privilege. And I really do believe it -- even when it's finals, or even when I have 30-page papers due that I haven't even started. I can honestly tell you that SPAN 101 class I took a few semesters ago was a joy...and how many things can you say that about? Certainly not many TV shows.

More Beth: Oh, and as for paying for it: that's the other reason I'm going to a state college; for part time students it's only about $650 a semester.

More Me: Yep, you got it. Go-o-o-o-o-o, California State University System...! Would I like to be able to say I went to an Ivy League university? Absolutely. But would I want to go to...? Probably not. I wouldn't fit in. I'd feel class-conscious. And I definitely don't think the intense competition of that environment would be good for me.

You're to be admired, Beth -- even more so for your reasons. Since Jeremy's already "in that groove," so to speak, I think you'll find yourself slipping into it with him very, very comfortably. Although I think Lucy (Aries Moon) has given up on CSU because of the prerequisites, I'm so happy to have another journaler- friend in my same university system. ^_^

Sei

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

I wish there was a creative writing MA program that was part time and didn't involve the GRE. That'd be the only grad school program I could do, I think.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Yes, I have given up on CSU for my undergraduate degree because they rejected all but 9 of my 81 credits. Two private universities, on the other hand, said they'd take virtually all of those credits, and I wouldn't have to take Statistics to boot because I'll be an English major. So it's student loan time for me, but I haven't given up on the state system. I am definitely hoping to go to grad school at a state university. You can't beat those prices.

I like all that olde Englishe stuff, Beth. I particularly loved Medieval Lit., and of course I go for anything 18th century in a big way. I'm totally looking forward to all my courses right up to the 20th century and then...ew. I struggle with the contemporary stuff. That's what sounds so great about grad school -- the chance to concentrate on what really interests you.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Regarding paying for graduate school: I headed into grad school without thinking much about how I would pay for it. That meant, for the first few years, a combination of student loans, scholarships, and working for the university. At first it leaned heavily toward the loans, but everyone I have known gradually moves toward getting almost all their money from work. I finally started using my head, however, a few years ago, and ditched most of my teaching and research work at the university for part-time consulting. My masters degree, despite my lack of attention, is in a practical field and I make far more money outside the university than I ever did working for professors -- enough that I can both pay for school and pay off my loans (more than half the total so far.)

I've been most productive working while going to school, so I recommend that. If you are considering this path, be careful about going to a graduate school in the boondocks, where there's no place to work but the university. Saving up money is great if you can pay for it all, but you won't get any aid if you have money saved -- it is annoying to discover that 22 year olds who head directly into graduate school are eligible for more scholarship money than you are, simply because they were too scared to enter the job market right away (I overgeneralize, but in my program, this is a common phenomenon) so they have, on paper, a greater need.

I have pulled down a lot of scholarship money over the years, but if you attempt this strategy, you'll quickly realize that it is sometimes more constraining than working. A lot of grants have conditions like "we'll award you this grant for $600 a month and if you or your spouse earn any more than that or if you get any more grants you have to give it back to us, because certainly a grad student can do research on such a generous stipend." This kind of money is great if you're doing research in Bulgaria or Vietnam, but it stinks if you're working in the U.S. or Western Europe.

Targeted grants are good grants -- travel grants, language study grants, research materials grants. The best money of all, however, is money you get from writing research proposals for foundations and the government (e.g., Pew Charitable Trusts, The Ford Foundation, The National Science Foundation, the State of California, the AFL-CIO -- a few of the groups I've snagged money from). You can exclude sneaky conditions about your maximum income, give yourself a decent salary, you can often write in materials costs (like a computer) and if you're smart, you end up getting money to do research you had to do anyway. Also, it looks great on your CV to say that you were a principal investigator. Employers like people who know how to raise money. I've combined this kind of income with part-time consulting for the past few years, and while it makes progress through graduate school slow, it all goes on my CV, and I don't have to live like a pauper, either.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

I took a Master's level English class because I was bored. It was about a year and a half after finishing college, and I was working in my profession but suddenly realized I missed being in the classroom and talking to people who were passionate about something. About two and a half years later, I ended up with a Masters in English, emphasis on technical writing.

It was a great experience. I wasn't a brilliant college student - it even took me two tries to get through calculus! I didn't make the best grades in the world, though I did okay in my major and minor. I wouldn't have thought I would make it through grad school and never planned on going. Like I said, I got bored.

But grad school is so much different than undergrad. Suddenly you're studying things that truly interest you, thing you don't mind spending hours researching. And I love being around others who are also interested in the same things.

Grad school is about what _you_ think about something, not just about memorizing what others thought. It's easy to be a good grad student as long as you're not afraid to form, and prove, your own opinions.

You will enjoy it, I promise!

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

I'm really lucky...my various employers have paid for my grad school tuition and books. Good thing, because two classes runs about $3,000 per trimester.

However, I'm thinking of changing jobs now with five classes left. I'm hoping for a salary bump so I can just pay for school myself and not have to negotiate with the employer, since most employers require that you be an employee for six months or something before they start paying.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Heya Gabby

My advice is pretty simple, based on my sob story, which I will include beneath my actual opinions on the subject.

When you go back, either commit FULLY to school, work part-time only to pay for your books, get an assistantship WITH A STIPEND, parlay your work experience outside into a job in your department, anything, but do not, do not, work full-time and go to school full-time unless your job is way cushy and isn't -really- a full-time job. Or, do what Beth's doing. Part-time school, full-time work, and work at your own pace, doing either one or two courses per semester only.

And when it comes time to write that thesis ... get a part-time job that will cover the rent and get a grant. There's money out there if you can find it. Research the grant money it's muy importante.

Get to know the campuses you're interested in, the professors you want to work with. I didn't pay that much attention and went where the money was and got seriously burned.

Go someplace you're going to like being at, rather than somewhere that's going to be a chore to get to.

You're going to be seeing a lot of the same faces for the next few years once you get started, because grad departments are much much smaller than undergrad. The last thing you want to do is wind up stuck somewhere you hate and it's much harder to transfer as a grad student unless you're in a consortium city than it is as an undergrad.

The GRE isn't that big of a deal. It's common sense really. I didn't study and I had the flu and hadn't slept the day of the exam and while I didn't do magnificently well, I scored in the same ranges that I did on my SATs back in high school. If you're worried about it, take a prep course though ... it's all about knowing how to answer that TYPE of question. Silly logic puzzles, grammar you learned in jr. high and probably use every day. Yada yada yada.

Recommendations ... anyone you forged a relationship with in undergrad who might remember you is a golden key. Draft letters to profs, bringing up key elements from courses you took with them and ask them if they can comment.

If you've been out a while, get an employer to write one. Look at what sorts of skills you've used in the working world and relate them to what you'll be doing in a Master's program and make an outline of salient points to help guide your employer-recommender. Most schools will accept 1 out of 2 or 3 requested recs from an employer or colleague if you've been out of school for X number of years. Check the policy in your application booklet to see if you qualify for that.

And now the sob story:

... you were there when I was tearing my hair out over ColdFusion in training in Chicago 3 years ago and trying to balance all that with grad school.

I was insane. Completely insane to try to go back to school and work and be a research assistant all at once.

Completely and total mental meltdown.

At that point, I was only 2 years out myself, so finding people to write recommendations was pretty simple, I got my advisors from undergrad to do it and I'd taken the GRE during my last year as an undergrad and the scores are good for something like 5 years, so I had no problem there either.

The bigger problem was money, which I 'dealt with' by going to the school that offered me bucks to be a research assistant.

Which carried its own load of problems quite neatly in a pretty little bow-wrapped packaged, called time.

I was still carrying debt from undergrad and had to work in order to pay that. I did not get a stipend as a research assistant, so while my -tuition- was paid in full, I still had to work in order to help sabs pay the bills. In order to keep assistantship, I had to carry a full courseload ... you see where this is going.

As long as I worked at my first job out of school, I was just holding on by my fingernails mentally and emotionally. But my last raise at that job was a sneeze and I still had to pay for books, so I took a better-paying job (which sent me to Chicago to learn ColdFusion) that involved more hours and more concentration ... which took time away from classes ... which took time away from sleep ... which ... well .. you get the picture.

The mistake I made, was believing that I could balance everything. That I could study on the fly the way I did as an undergrad. The standards are much much higher in grad school. You can't just give things a lick and a polish the way you can in undergrad and get away with it. You actually have to read what you're assigned, understand what you've read and be prepared to say something intelligent about it.

Grad school is not easy. So IMHO, I'd be damn sure about wanting to be there, before going. That said ... even on the bad days, I had a lot of fun in several of my classes and enjoyed the heady rush of being in an intellectual atmosphere again. I miss it keenly and now live three blocks from one of the most well-known schools in the nation and every day I watch those students walking up to campus and long to be among them, but know that I've blown my chance because I didn't prepare adequately 3 years ago.

So be careful ... and research, research, research so that you walk into this with your eyes wide open.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

One more note ... My new sneaky plan is to get a job at UC-Berkeley and get in the back door.

Check the U of Chicago HR web site and see if you can find an on-campus job. BIIIIIG discounts for employees. Biiiiiiig.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Grad school is a good thing, but before we over-romanticize it, let's just note that for many people it is professional school and usually contains just as many requirements of dubious value and just as much mindfucking as any other kind of professional school. Typical hazing barriers include: assignment of amorphous projects (the dissertation being the major one if you continue for it), forced dependence on a single boss, and systematic withholding of feedback and praise. If I could choose a grad school again, I think I'd pick one where the students have a good community, rather than concentrating on who the professors were. Senior professors die off but your age peers can be in your life forever.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Ah, part-time grad school. Satisfying? Sure. A hassle? You betcha. I work 8 hour+ days and go to school 45 minutes away 4 nights a week. My days start at about 6 or 6:30am and don't end until 10:30pm. I have no time to myself. But, I'll have a nice law degree when I'm all done.

I got one recommendation from my old employer and all the schools seemed fine with it. One rec was from a professor I did research with (the 'legit' one) and the third was just a professor I happened to have had for two classes. All wrote very nice things about me and I got in everywhere I applied.

I also took the GRE and the GRE Psychology Subject Test during my senior year in college alongside the LSATs, just in case I end up deciding to go back into the field I studied as an undergrad, but I doubt that will happen.

Oh, and I'm sure that time off helps you get a good perspective, but so does being a night student. I'm only a year out of college, but since I work full-time and have to balance so much, I feel I'm a lot more appreciative of my learning than my full-time counterparts.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

From today's e-mail, the answer to a prayer. --Damn! I could be "Doctor Shonagon" by St. Patrick's Day...!

Sei

> UNIVERSITY DIPLOMAS > > Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power, > and the admiration of all. > > Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited > universities based on your present knowledge > and life experience. > > No required tests, classes, books, or interviews. > > Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD) > diplomas available in the field of your choice. > > No one is turned down. > > Confidentiality assured. > > CALL NOW to receive your diploma > within days!!! > > 1-212-465-3248 > > Call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, including > Sundays and holidays.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

I love that--"prestigious non-accredited Universities."

Why am I wasting my time at this stupid accredited one where it will take me at least another 3 years to get my Ph.D.?

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

I don't know why you'all waste the time - I myself am a Ph.D. from a place I think is called "University of the Pacific" - I haven't actually hauled out my 'degree' in a long time. A friend bought it for me as a gag gift, years ago.

Illustrious alumni, other than myself, of course, include John Grey, of Mars and Venus fame.

Seriously - the on campus job is a life saver, tuition wise, and also just for knowing what is going on in the uni. community. I could never have gone as far as I did without mine.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Hey, now, there's a real UOP here in California, and it's a real school. I think it's in Stockton. McGeorge Law School here in Sacramento (where Justice Kennedy used to teach, and where many of my coworkers went to school) is part of it.

On to other things ...

Anyone planning to take the GRE, get thee to the ETS home page and cough up the $15 to use the diagnostic evaluator (or else just find a sample test, I guess). I am no longer afraid of the GRE, because I just scored 100% on the verbal section questions they have here. That test was WAY easier to understand than your average Scalia opinion.

-- Anonymous, March 08, 2001

I just went through GRE hell a few months ago. But I'd been out of school for a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time - last GRE was taken in 1985 so I had to take it again for obvious reasons. The thing is, studying for it made a huge difference and I was amazed at how "awake" I felt after a few weeks of serious beavering away at it. I did better than I'd hoped on everything but the logic games, but even I even got better at those after lots of practice.

As to old profs writing letters of rec - there is a time limit on this. Fifteen+ years is too long, I found out. "Who the fuck remembers that long ago?" was about the response I got.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do now that my plans to do grad school in England have been derailed. UCLA I suppose (close by,) but I'm reluctant for many reasons. I'm going to hunt down a couple UCLA profs at our professional meeting this year and talk to them about starting a part-time program next year. While working full time. Yarg.

Still, it is (mostly) a joy to be working hard on something I love. As I think Sei said up there, what do I use my free time for anyway?

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Hey - I just got into a Master's at UC Davis!!!

I have, as yet, NFI as to whether I'll accept or not. Argh.

It's such a commitment - moving countries, for one, and giving up my work, for another. And then there's the puppy ...

Argh.

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2001

Congratulations, Anna! Whether you decide to attend or not.

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2001

Thanks, Beth.

I'm leaning against it at the moment, but it's nice to be wanted (now doesn't that sound pathetic?).

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

G (my long term fella) and I have been discussing our geographic future and our professional futures.

Once we've determined to leave the area in which he's doing his residency (up in the air right now, since he's still torn about doing a fellowship, i.e. specializing), I'm going to go back to school. And the school decision will help form the basis of the where to live decision.

I feel terribly lucky, in that I'll be able to rely on him financially and only work part time. And yes, that's damn lucky. His choice of profession (physician) lifts some financial worries. I feel sort of weird saying that, sort of traditional house-wifey, on the other hand, we're a team.

At any rate, I'm shopping for MFA (creative writing--emphasis creative non-fic and poetry) programs. And classes in which to flex my now-flaccid academic muscles (hence my earlier post on picking up a foreign language). I've noticed that low-residency programs are on the rise. Does anyone have any experience with low residency writing programs?

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

I got my grad degree a few years ago. my undergrad was in marketing/advertising. I thought I wanted to do research. once I was in the field I decided it was NOT for me. I started writing and editing brochures and newsletters, then I started doing the layout. I decided graphic design was the path for me. so I went back and got my masters in publications design.

it was really tough! I had a 40+ hour full-time job, and it took me three years at night to finish the program. I didn't do much but work and school work. my only break was happy hour on friday nights. during my last semester I did school work after regular work until almost midnight and 8-9 hours a day on saturdays and sundays. I even had to work on easter! but the hard work paid off. my group's final project urbanspace won two first place awards. (not only did you have to do the work, but you had to compete against others in your class!) it's a cool thing to have on your resume. especially when the program is so well respected in the area.

and I did love every minute of it. I love school. I could be a professional student if I had the time and money. the school where I got my MA just began a Phd program for communications design. I have seriously thought about it, but I work in an advertising agency now. things are too chaotic. the hours are too long. I'd never be able to dedicate myself like I did before.

my husband and I first started dating a few months after I graduated. I kid with him now that if we had tried to date while I was still in school, we wouldn't be together now.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2001

Arrggggghhh. Just trying to sign up for my fall courses (yeah, I'm going to try to do this, if I don't tear my hair out first). But they've only conditionally admitted me, because my English degree from UCLA did not include an upper degree course in advanced composition. This is because UCLA assumes you get your advanced composition down in your regular literature courses and seminars, I guess. But CSU requires it, so I have to take an undergrad composition class and pass it with a B or better. I can start on the MA in the meantime, but I have to take the comp class in my first semester.

It can't be challenged. And the course is designed for undergrads so it isn't offered in the evening.

Fuck, this might be a deal breaker. Now I understand why Lucy was so frustrated with the CSU admission requirements.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

Hey, I got into NYU as well. What a pity the Aussie dollar is only 50 US cents ... I really can't afford $30,000 US for a year's tuition, as much as I'd like to think I could afford it. Stinky.

Good luck, Beth, but I've never had much luck with bending university admission rules before. I hope you do.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2001

Anna -- student loans, baby!

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

I recently discovered that I have only $9k and some change left to pay off on my undergrad student loans. That made me extremely happy and makes the thought of procuring more loans for grad school much less fearsome.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001