So let’s narrow this down to something that we are familiar with. Ezboard and this site. Phil works out of MIT. Associated with this site is photo.net. It is probably the most visited photo site on the net. It always seems to work. The software on this bb is about the best that I’ve seen. In contrast, Ezboard is not running 24/7. It appears to be running 2 or 3/7. In the past, when it was up, it wasn’t always doing this well.

So we have a comparison of private enterprise and public sites. Why do we see this difference? Then look at the job Seattle did public money [which has been dropped from the budget] to prepare for quakes. Good job by the government. Most of the damage is in private companies. Who is better at this stuff?

Just kicking-up a little sand.

Cheers,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Answers

Until recently, I'd never had a problem with EZ Board (I post regularly to an EZ Board forum that is NOT TB). Their problems (of late) are due to merging with another company and upgrading their hardware at the same time; the new employees didn't have the first- hand knowledge (or so their explanation went, anyway). Frankly, I've had more trouble with the Greenspun fora over the past two or three months. Seems like they load slower and slower these days, and there have been a number of times I couldn't get in at all.

I don't know that you can fairly make the disaster comparison, Z. It was mandated that Seattle was going to prepare for the inevitable earthquakes. The money was specifically earmarked for that. As to private businesses, they usually aren't going to spend any money on things that don't directly produce a(n) ROI, unless legally-bound to do so.

As to the larger question, though, it completely depends on the situation. In some things, government is obviously more efficient, possibly because the initiatives are more targeted (and there is -- in theory, anyway -- more stringent accountability). In others, private businesses are better and more efficient, and that can be for the same reason(s). Depends on the circumstances I guess.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

I don't think it's an EITHER/OR situation. SOME things are better suited for government, while SOME things are better suited for private industry.

Thanks for the reminder, however. A while back I heard folks criticizing Al Sharpton. I didn't know who he was, so asked around. SO's brother sent me an article about how the Edison Company [under the direction of a Chris Whittle, former publisher of Esquire] was in the process of privatizing some public schools in N.Y. The Edison Company had asked Sharpton to engage in the negotiations, feeling that he had constituent support in the area. The teacher's unions are up in arms over it, but it seems that the Edison Company had gained a contract for a N.Y. suburban school and couldn't deliver the books in time. I don't know how it will turn out in the end, but it's something I'll keep my eye on. Education interests me, regardless of who is at the helm.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

Trish,

As to the larger question, though, it completely depends on the situation.

That's what I think. There are a few cases where governments can do things better, because business DOES look for return on investment. But ... WHEN there is a potential ROI involved, business usually blows any government attempt away.

Z,

As usual, things aren't all that clear; you have to consider all the factors involved. I will say this: a look at the OVERALL track record indicates that private industry *usually* does things better, but like Trish said, that's not necessarily true across the board.

This forum HAS had a lot of problems in recent months, though I'll grant that it's certainly better than InsideTheWebs, where I started out. But as it turns out, ITW's problems were money-related. It has apparently been losing money for some time, and I got my email notice a few days ago that they were turning out the lights and going home. ITW is dead.

Few things run worse than a business which is struggling for money. :)

And just for the record, if you LIKE this forum and find it better, go read what Phil has to say about how it works. He's using AOLServer -- which was developed by a for-profit enterprise.

On the other side of the coin, you could look at Linux, which is doing remarkably well as a collaborative labor of love.

Further, I could argue that small government entities, such as local water and sewer boards in very small towns, are run very much like businesses. They aren't large enough to become politicized, so I don't know if the comparison is valid THERE, either.

I agree with Anita. I don't think this is "either-or" and I don't think you can make such comparisons a priori; you have to consider all of the factors in each case.

Da wadders is muddy on this one. :)

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

Some interesting "sand", Z, worth a bit of discussion. I used to look at the "private" vs. "government" debate, but now I see it more in terms of "individual" or "small group" inititive vs. "big government" or "big corporations." Basically, when the organization grows to more than 200 or so people (someones principle, maybe Lemmings?) things get overly bureaucratic and inefficient.

So, Phil Greenspun did this thing on his own, with a couple of servers at MIT, hence, individual effort suceeds well here! Had this been an actual government program, the studies would still be underway at a cost of millions.....and we would be typing on Smith- Corona's.....

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

David,

Basically, when the organization grows to more than 200 or so people (someones principle, maybe Lemmings?) things get overly bureaucratic and inefficient.

Boy, you've got that right! This touches on something that I brought up back during the Great Y2K Debate. The REAL miracle wasn't that large corporations could survive Y2K; the REAL miracle was that they survived switching on the lights every morning. Most large companies make three (3) truly dumb decisions by lunchtime each and every day. The miracle is that they survive them somehow.

No, I don't know how. I wish I did. :)

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Uh, you've apparently never worked for MY company wherein it's three an hour. On a Tuesday. All of which absolutely, positively, under penalty of death MUST be implemented by Friday (Thursday, if you work OT).

(I do, of course, aim to change all that. Ha.)

"How they survive" can initially be attributed (in public companies, anyway) to greedy investors. (After that, it's anyone's guess.)

Then when the stock price goes from $60 to $5 in between July and August, they get angry when they don't become Instant Overnight Gazillionaires. Then they file what the company's PR arm calls "ridiculous lawsuits" because said company (GASP!) actually lied in their "optimistic forward-looking statements".

Then said company decides to change their strategy and (you just aren't going to believe this one) focus on their customers!!! (In order to accomplish this lofty goal, they slash the Customer Service Department in half and lay off approximately 200+ more workers -- all of whom are based in LV.)

(smacks forehead) What A Concept!

All the while this is happening, they spend millions on a Brand- Spanking New Headquarters Building in Rochester, NY (the company was founded and had been based in Las Vegas). The reason the HQ was moved? The new CEO lived there and didn't want to move his wine cellar. (LV homes don't have basements, for the most part.) Wow. I just can't wait 'til I get to that point in my life.

Over the next few months, several key departments are moved from LV to Rochester (employees are given the "option" to re-locate in some instances -- yeah, right; as if Rochester was actually an "option"). The Rochester HQ staff is treated to a holiday party whose bill surpasses $15K. LV? A "catered buffet" (by the single worst "Mexican" restaurant in which I've ever eaten) and a one- man "band" (the fun never ends). This occurs on a Wednesday from noon to three PM (Rochester's was in a banquet-type hall on a Friday night).

And almost quietly in the background while all of this is going on (thank heaven for the "insider trades" section), certain LLCs and individuals who "own a percentage of the company" are mysteriously selling off millions of shares (at a profit; simply amazing). But the CEO states, in every single quarterly conference call -- which I could write at this point in time -- that "WE ARE NOT BEING SOLD!!" Uh, no s&&t, Sherlock. Who'd want to buy this dump?

The "miracle" of all of this is not only how they remain operating, but how they still manage to hire senior management at $1 million plus per year to replace the smart ones (almost one per quarter) who've decided to "move on to better things".

Heh, and I haven't even touched on the plethora of software and consulting services purchased that have ..... just sat there. Or the twelve (count 'em -- TWELVE) Priority One Projects running concurrently with five project managers. Or the SW packages (with consulting services) that were purchased and do exactly the same thing as every other SW package purchased (with consulting services) (I'm currently working on one of those implementations -- as I said, the fun never ends). (At least three in the seven-figure range, at last count; mine's under half a mil.) Oh yes, one more slightly important little tidbit -- every one of these "initiatives" has been decided upon by senior management; not once did they consult the people who would actually be using the software and/or equipment. Not once did they look into what we already had prior to making these decisions. And every time we get a new member of the upper echelon (almost one per quarter), a new multi-million dollar initiative becomes Priority One.

You can't make this up. Yeah, I suppose it is a miracle.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Heh, heh. Heh. Trish, that was good. But you forgot the part about TEAM SPIRIT! Don't forget the (T)ogether (W)e (A)chieve (M)ore stuff! You know, the posters from HR Dynamics and stuff? :)

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

One last thing (if only).....

I notice that Republicans consistently complain about "government waste". Frankly, the government has nothing on "corporate waste" because corporations get to write it all off as "the cost of doing business". They do, of course, find bazillions of dollars to fund these "initiatives" and give handsome "severance packages" to departing execs (in the form of "guaranteed contracts). An exec can come into the company in January, be given his "walking papers" in March, and still get his year's salary (and this has happened in my company). But the little guy gets told "there's no money for raises" and "besides, your salary is in line with industry standards".

Yeah, if you work in the fast-food industry.

It makes for an amusing story but, sadly, I suspect that my company is indicative of what goes on in the corporate world. Not amusing at all.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

In my place, Stephen, the employees are Empowered.

We're not quite sure for what, though.

(My last manager -- I've had six since I joined the company in June -- told me I was "empowered" to do something. I told him if I hear that word again, I just might "go postal". We had a good laugh over that one. If there's one thing I absolutely cannot deal with, it's "buzzwords". Keep 'em to yourself; just get the stupid job done.)

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

No, Trish, you hit the nail on the head. Smaller (privately owned) businesses HAVE to be careful with their money. A dumb decision at a Mom and Pop might literally mean that someone goes hungry that week.

But once a company goes public, assuming it succeeds, you have zillions of shareholders pumping money into it and, as the old saying goes, "capitalization hideth a multitude of sins."

I've told you guys stories of my stint with the Big Company several years ago. Same thing as what you're experiencing. In fact, the project that I was doing for them (a relatively simple thing, too) never DID get completed, last I heard ... they had dumped tons of money into the thing, too.

It would have been cheaper to have hired MICROSOFT to custom-write a version of Windows to do what they wanted done. :)

This all ties together with some other stuff I've been pondering (I'm experiencing epiphany here). I may generate a Patented Poole Screed(tm) about this.

(You have been warned.[g])

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Patricia, some very good commentary on Corporate America. From an Orwellian point of view, I can see Big Brother on one hand as Big Government and as Korporate Amerika on the other....

Basically, power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I read that SOMEwhere...;)

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001