Hi, how important is registered stock? Right now I am looking for milk goats for personal use, not sure what I will do with the babies yet, we do have brush we want to work to clean up though. I am looking at a less expensive non-registered nubian bred to a 1/2 boar buck and a alpine/nubian cross bred to the same buck. One is fresh the other is due to freshen end of April, both are yound does. I am also looking at registered nubian does, 1, 5 years old, just fresh and a yearling due to freshen in June. I also have the added expense of fencing and new equipment. I haven't had goats for about 8 years, so I am starting over on a new farm, my last goats were all Alpine, no papers and I didn't care for the milk, so I definiately want Nubians this time around as I like the milk better. PLEASE HELP!

Thanks, Toni in Idaho

-- Toni in Idaho (fourseasonsfarm@sandpoint.net), March 08, 2001

Answers

Toni - Neighbor!! (I live in ID, too... Moved here in Dec. from IL)

I personally don't hold too much stock in registration - even of my purebreds. (Had goats, chickens, horses, dogs etc. most of my life, but starting over here with just the dogs n bunnies.)

Unless you think you might sell off the kids, I wouldn't worry about it. Better that you like the milk and such. If you are going to sell off the kids as milkers, breeding stock, or whatever, that will be more of a reason for registration. can't register most half breeds anyway, that I know of.... if so, sorry - like I said... not up on it.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 08, 2001.

Hi Toni, this is one of those two sides to everything questions. At least you are asking the question before you purchase. Purebred and American (very much of a lesser degree in American Nubian) costs more than unregistered stock, and if bred to a buck of equal value, gives you kids who are valuable. But what you have in unregistered stock is no ancestory. Surely wouldn't be wanting to purchase does who are not in milk with no history, she could milk a cup a day. Registration is also only as good as the ethics of the person filling out the paperwork, though it does take some smarts to cheat. If you are happy with half breeds, especially boer crossed to anything dairy, than registration means nothing to you. However I prefer to breed up. You can't find good accurate information on bucks who do not have pedigree, so once again breeding to him is a crap shoot (well more so than it needs to be) you have no idea what he truly is going to improve. When folks say they "don't want show stock" you really are fooling yourself. Nice feet and legs, gives you does who can really forage in the woods, yet you keep hoof trimming to a minimum. A nice udder tucked high in the body, makes for much less udder injury especially if they are eating underbrush as part of thier diet. And the price you can sell registered stock for compared to unregistered is remarkably more. You do have to go about it as a business, since even with registration papers, and animal that is skinny, hooves overgrown, horned, wild, with uneven udder, is still a 50$ animal. I am talking dairy goats of course. I was just having this conversation with someone else last night, someone who is so unhappy that she is only getting 50$ for her kids out of her beautiful Nubians who she bred to boer. 5 to 6 times less than the going rate in our area, for purebred Nubian kids. What a shame!

After you decide about registered (which means paperwork in your hand not some veiled promise of papers that I can't find right this minute, with tattoo's that match the paperwork) vs unregistered read the threads on CL, CAE and Johnes. Disease is a cheap one to test for, 6$ tests plus pulling the blood. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 08, 2001.

I have found that my registered stock is not as "sturdy" as my unregistered, meaning that they get ill easier and seem to have more problems in general. I have managed to weed out the stock that isn't tough and have a few registered does and bucks left, but I no longer register any of the babies. It is too much trouble.

I have one goat that is part Saanan and part Nubian and she is the best goat I have. The Nubians milk quite well and I love them to death. I am decreasing my herd down to 3 or 4 does and one buck.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Toni, if you live in the panhandle of Idaho as your address suggests, please e mail me privately. I know a reputable breeder who has her nubians in test so it is proven how much they produce, and she is very conscienteous about disease. I think you would be very happy with a goat from her and they are not too high priced for what you would be getting.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 08, 2001.

Hi Toni,

If I had it to do over again, I would buy only registered goats. I am thinning out my goats with no papers, and concentrating on adding registered Alpines, but only keeping my best milker Saanens, the ones I know for sure are full stock. You really never know what mixes of goats in the un-registered ones. People say it is full stock, but then when the babies come, the ears are floppy or something else that you know it isn't.

If you are going to put out all the care and money for their upkeep, why not have kids worth more when you sell? Plus like Vicki said, you know the history and medical info. I would spend a little more money now, and you will have allot more in the long run. Plus, there are so many neat goat clubs and things you could join with your registered goats, and make a lot of goat friends in your area.

Around here, mixed doe babies sell for 35, but I can buy Registered Alpine babys for 75. I'm not buying any more mixed ones. I think the Saanen milk is fantastic, as it is low butterfat. Our Saanens milk is sweet, no goaty flavor. Have you ever tasted it? I haven't tried Alpine milk yet, I froze Violets milk in case I need it later, but I will try some this week. I hope I like it as well as the Saanen milk. I'm sure I will always have at least a couple Saanens just for drinking milk.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), March 09, 2001.

Toni:

I agree wholeheartedly with the pro-registration replies above. Reputable breeders of purebred-registered animals have a vital interest in perpetuating sound genetics and keeping their herd disease free. A breeder will not keep a good reputation for long by passing off unfit or diseased animals. Even if your only interest is in milk for the homestead, there are several advantages to investing in a purebred-registered doe from an ethical breeder: First, you have pretty good assurance of good milk production; Second, if bred to a registered buck of good quality, you will have kids every year of real value that you can sell for profit. Our Nubian kids sell in the range of $250 to $400 each this year, depending on the pedigree and how the dams have been able to demonstrate ribbon winning qualities. Kids from first fresheners do not command as high a price as those from seasoned does, even within similar lines.

You are right about the Nubians giving the best quality milk. There are some very good breeders in the Idaho panhandle and in the Deer Park area north of Spokane. Many of them have websites. Go to www.cybergoat.com to look them up.

Skip Walton, Sunday Creek Nubians, Stanwood, Wa, www.sundaycreek.com

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), March 10, 2001.

My alpine is just newly milking and her milk is so rich and creamy!!! YUMMY!!! I am currently getting 6 cups of milk a day, I hope that improves, but her milk is so good!!

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 10, 2001.

I agree that registered stock is the way to go. We had goats for about twelve years with most of them unregistered, some were unknown ancestry. They mostly milked pretty well, some quite well, but the kids were not too saleable, and there wasn't a lot of quality. This time we are getting registered, good-quality Nubians -- I started out just getting a couple for house use, and even then I wanted the papers and the quality. Now I'm working on setting up a commercial dairy, so the papers and the quality are even more important. I do think that if you know your animals are worth something, that they are good quality animals, then that's an incentive to be more conscientious in their care. Often, when people don't feel like their animals have any particular value, they are a little careless and can be even neglectful of them. (Though I've also seen a couple of young registered Arabians sired by stallions with $10,000 stud fees that had been kept their whole lives cooped up in small uncleaned stalls, their hooves untrimmed, and only given food and water when someone happened to remember they were there -- so even value is no guarantee of good care. But it helps.) And having had every breed I agree that Nubians have the best tasting milk. Just my two cents worth.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), March 12, 2001.

Hi As mentioned earlier, registration papers help to get the information you might need to improve lines, production records if the doe was on milk test and other information. I would say a good papered doe would sell for say 150.00 up to a thousand depending on your goat interests. I raise alpines, had raised nubians in the past and think that how you milk determines the taste and what you feed rather than so much the butterfat. although nubian is higher in fat. Hope this helps.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 12, 2001.

Personally, I don't hold much stock in registering my goats. I know that there are two sides to the issue...but, I agree with those that have stated that registered goats seem to fall ill more often, etc.

None of our goats have ever been registered, but, we do keep records. They are all written down in a binder. We have everyone's mother and father. Who owned them (if we didn't), the breed, the color, the year they were born, if the died, we have the date, if we sold them, we write in the date, and the name of the buyer.

One girl who went to school with my sister wouldn't buy any of my sisters does, because they weren't registered, and she was trying to start a goat dairy. Well, about a month and a half ago, she brought in a handful of new, registered milking does....and had them die off, along with about 35 of her original does. We have since found out that the new group she brought in had abcesses....and the one doe who had visible signs was told to be in PERFECT health....

So....you have to do what you want. I prefer to not register (I save money not having to pay registration fees), and I don't have to charge people as much when I sell (tho I have upped my prices in the past two years). Our family has a good reputation for selling, healthy, sound, friendly, well-mannered animals....and we intend to keep it that way :) Mostly, we raise them for fun...so if all you are interested in is personal use, and selling off or butchering the extra....I don't think you really need to concern yourself with registering.

-- Sarah Wilde (gilded_lily_1@yahoo.com), March 22, 2001.

Illness and registration have nothing in common. 35+ goats don't die of abscess, and anybody who comingles new stock with old stock without a quaranteen period is asking for problems. When you bring in stock to your farm, they have different levels of antibiodies to different disease, and honestly most of the time we see the persons old stock being killed off by the new bugs, worms, and cocci levels brought onto the farm by the new stock. Not vice versa. I always preach quaranteen of my bloodlines, think about that a doe you purchased from me would have colostrum at birth from a doe who is 11, along with several 8 and 9 year olds. They have been through and lived through, years of showing, a pasturella scare, contagious icthima, they are all immune from sore mouth, but if your goats have never had any of this, whos' goats are going to get sick? Add to this folks on the internet talking about worming monthly with more and more wormer, who would want to buy stock that is infested with super worms that will contaminate your place? Just a thought.. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 22, 2001.