A dog tore the wood off the side of the barn to get into the goats. It killed all of them. My pygmies were all pregnant so not running fast, my alpine tried to get away, but couldn't.Some neighbors tried to help me find the dog, but no luck yet. If I didn't see the teeth marks on the wood, I would have thought that the goats kicked it out, trying to get away, but there are dog teeth marks. I just knew you would all sympathize with me and have read many posts put her by myself and my daughter. We will continue building the bigger pen, only I plan to hot wire it and run barbed wire on the outside of the pen, sheet metal on the barn instead of wood. gotta go

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001

Answers

Boy, you got MY sympathy! Nothing like someone's pet dogs to make your life a living hell. I'm sooooo sorry to hear your news, made me tear up. I've got pregnant Angora mammas due in May... my first 'goat grand-kids', so the protective mother in me stays on alert. I hope you find the owner of the dog... don't know what you'd do to prove it, though. At least a coyote would snatch one & run, but a pet dog will kill everything you've got. I stay in a perpetual frenzy about people who move to the country and let their precious little 'Fifi' roam because she'd never do anything bad! Good luck in fortifying your place. This is war. dh in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), March 26, 2001.

Oh Cindy. I am sooo sorry. How terrible. May God give comfort to you and your daughter.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 26, 2001.

What awful, horrible news. No dogs should ever run loose. Gosh, that makes me mad as all get out. Hopefully, the dog will return to the barn tonight and you can get a shot at him! He'll come back now that he found something. Get yourself a good guard dog. I am so sorry this happened to you, I just don't know what to say.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), March 26, 2001.

I'm so sorry to here this .How sad .Are there coyotes in the area or known wild dogs ? I would check with local authorities .Just don't hold your breath for to many answers .I so so sorry for you and your kids and the poor goats .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), March 26, 2001.

Oh my gosh!!! I'm so sorry. I hope you don't let this discourage you to much. Boy is this sad.........Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

I'm so sorry, Cindy. My heart goes out to you.

-- Betsy in NY (sassyweitzel@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

Amber saw the dog first, then myself, it was a white chow/shepherd mix. I called the pound and they are letting me use a trap to catch the dog. I hope I can find out whos dog it is and make them replace the goats, but I don't think that will happen. We are going to put out the trap and hope the dog gets caught, at least we will know that that particular dog is dead. It came back and my husband saw it,but it was running too fast to get away. I am against letting animals run free to begin with...this just really enforces my anger. :-( I appriciate the concern, the kids are really torn up, but have calmed down and are eating lunch now.The kids locked themselves in their room to cry awhile, but at least let me talk to them. Gotta run get the trap, thanks again for the support.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

Cindy, my heart goes out to you. What an awful thing to happen. I would have never thought that a dog would tear the wood off a barn to get into it. If it is any consolation, at least you have taught me something to learn from. I will definitely make sure my animals are as safe as I can make them when I get them. I plan to have chickens and sheep which are both animals that do not have good defenses so I know it will be up to me. Thank you for sharing your tragedy for others of us can hopefully avoid it.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), March 26, 2001.

So sad for you Cindy. What a mess. I would keep a watchful eye on those children while that dog is around. Hope you can catch it and/ or shoot it soon.

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), March 26, 2001.

How awful, this happened to me, but it was my chickens and turkeys that were killed. There were signs of them trying to get to the goats, too. The answer for me was to get dogs again. My queenslands keep the strays away! I hope you can get them to compensate you. The owners of the Rott/mix dogs that came here, were untimate lowlife druggy types and we thought it better not to engage them for the money. I did contact the animal control and they said go ahead and shoot them if they show up again. I was real ready for that, but they didn't return. I got new dogs and changed the gates on the chicken coop. Again, sorry for your loss.

-- Nancy (sonflower35@icqmail.com), March 26, 2001.

Cindy, I am so sorry for you and your children!!!!!!!!!!!!This is always on my mind. We do have one Great Pyrennees and i am leary of leaving goats without him around. My husabnd and I were discussing pet dogs last night and the terror they can bring on a person with livestock. I wish people could see how their "not hurt a flea" pets behaved around helpless animals. Cindy in GA

-- Cindy in GA (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 26, 2001.

All of our worst nightmares. I hope you find the owner and make them pay triple!! After all, it's not just these does you lost but any possible kids. Not to mention time, sweat and effort. Now that I think of it, triple isn't enough.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), March 26, 2001.

You can better believe that when I move to my new place this summer, fencing will be foremost in my mind. By the time I get through with it, it will look like Fort Knox! My dogs will be fenced in, neighbor dogs will be fenced out, NO dogs will be able to get around the goats or chickens... and I don't care how long it takes or how much $$ I'll have to scrape together to do it. Good fences do make good neighbors. dh in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), March 26, 2001.

Cindy, I am so so sorry...what a horrible and senseless tragedy!!! That is so scary when I think of how determined that #@$#% dog was. My two German Shepherds guard my goats by day but I bring them in at night. We have electric high tensile fencing and I close the goats up in their barn every night. But now I don't feel so secure... I hope you catch the dog so you can sleep from now on. Again, I'm so sorry for you and your children.

-- Judy in Md. (trailhppr@msn.com), March 26, 2001.

I am so sorry for this tragedy Cindy, how terrible for your children! The other post that this is everyones worst nightmares are so true! We had a dog (pet from down the street) on the place the other night, he got the worst of it, but my only guardian is now nursing wounds instead of guarding! Scarry thought with spring and increased coyote noise. You can always tell it is a pet dog or stray when it is just savage killing. Coyotes will eat their prey, you seldom will even find the carcass, just a calf missing from the property behind us. With Morgan out of commission for at least a week, we have stepped up the finding pups that we had hoped to put off till after summer and our lives calmed down. A good guardian breed of dog may be your answer also. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 26, 2001.

Cindy.... I am so sorry to hear that...... stuff like that just makes my skin crawl and me angry. My prayers and thoughts are with you and your family. Hotwiring the fence would help, however, i would also consider getting a good livestock guard dog.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

Cindy, I'm so sorry this happened to you. If you find out whose dog it is, please take them to small claims court and get back not only the value of the goats, but also the value of the lost milk, and all the feed and hay you put into them. Not so much for the money as to send a message to dog owners that their dogs are a liablilty and MUST be controlled!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 26, 2001.

This a terrible story and can only imagine the pain and anger you are feeling. Do hope you find the dog and also the dogs owner who should be made to compensate for the damage. Nothing can replace animals that are loved by a family. My thought are with you. Gary

-- Gary (ggiles@north.nsis.com), March 26, 2001.

Sorry to hear. We have Angoara goats. I'm just glad that New Hampshire law states that ANY person can shoot ANY dog that is going after ANY other animal. After the local police chief informed people in our neighborhood, we don't see any dogs running around.

-- Daivd in NH (grayfoxfarm@mcttelecom.com), March 26, 2001.

My heart goes out to you. It makes me sick just thinking about it. Secondly, it makes me ANGRY! This dog undoubtedly will be back, I pray you are able to see that it does not ever kill again. As to finding the owners, you might try placing an ad in the newspaper's Lost & Found section. (Even if you've already trapped the dog and turned it over to authorities.) That may be a little sneaky, but if the dog isn't wearing ID (not likely), it might be a way to locate the owner and get their phone number on caller ID or a license plate number if they come out to get the dog. I would also go door to door to all your neighbors and describe the dog and ask if they might know who it belongs to. Don't tell anyone what the dog did, just say it showed up on your place and you're trying to locate the owners. If you catch the dog, or even if you just see it, try to get a photo. You may need it for evidence. I hope you get this dog, and even more, I hope you get the owners. They deserve to be sued.

Anyone that has goats, sheep, etc., and is contemplating building new fence, please invest in the most dog proof fence you can possibly afford. Dogs can get over a pretty tall fence, and they can also dig under one pretty quick. Not even barbwire on the bottom will necessarily stop a dog. We are planning to put up new goat fence before long so I've been trying to think of ways to keep predators out. So far I plan on using 5 foot stock panels, with 3 rows of barb wire above that. Still thinking about how to keep a dog from digging under. Have considered pouring concrete underneath. Also thought about how some folks, when building chicken pens, run the chicken wire on down and bury a foot or so to keep predators from digging under. Perhaps something on that order, using heavier wire. It's a shame when livestock owners have to go to such lengths to protect their animals, not from wild predators, but from "pets" that run loose.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), March 26, 2001.

First... I am sooo sorry for your loss. How horrible.

I know from what you said that its canine... A dog would do that... leave them. But... are you sure its only one dog?? That's an awful lot of destruction for only one dog to be able to do without at least getting hurt.

I wish you all the best in keeping them (dogs) out of your barns, etc.!!! Wish I knew of a bait that would take care of the problem for you without hurting other animals.... Perhaps a gun?

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 26, 2001.

What a heartbreaking tradgedy.We all lose a treasured one from time to time but it,s hard for me to imagine the pain losing them all must be causing you.If you do find the dog's owners please do as Rebecka suggest and send a message to all dog owners.You have my sympathy.

-- JT (gone2seed@hotmail.com), March 26, 2001.

I got out talking to the neighbors that I know, and that don't have the dog. One neighbor said he had seen 4 dogs that run together and they all look alike. He said they come up the back of his property, then across to ours. He plans to shoot them if he sees them. They have a mare about to foal and now are afraid the dogs will get her. We drove around to other houses, looking to see if we saw the dog(S), but no luck. Our neighbors were already asking people if they had seen a dog with that discription without telling them what happened. They have 15 pygmy goats, so are concerned as well. I sure hope to find out who it belongs to and take them to court!!! I am so upset and angry. The animal control wouldn't even come out, we had to go into town to get the trap. I won't let the kids go out for awhile, I am afraid to. What if the dogs decided to go after them? It so easily could have been my oldest son, he is 11 yrs old. He usually gets up first thing in the morning , goes out to check on his dog. He happened to over sleep, he never over sleeps. I am soooooo glad he did!! We are looking into getting a good dog to help watch over any goats we may get in the future. We have the 2 week old doe, thankfully, she was in the house. It had gotten down cold last night and I was worried about her. I want a puppy that can grow up with her. I know this is getting long, but as to the chicken wire. I ran the chicken wire in my bird pen about a foot underground, and so far...have not lost a bird since. Thanks again.

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

Cindy, So sorry to hear of your loss. Don't blame the dogs. Blame the neanderthals who let them loose. Get yourself a shotgun or rifle, learn how to use it and keep it handy. Many livestock owners use the SSS sytem: Shoot, Shovel and Shutup. No need to have to defend yourself in court for defending your farm.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), March 26, 2001.

I must say the SSS gave me a snicker. My husband was saying the same thing earlier today. I will tell him the SSS since he didn't use that terminology.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 26, 2001.

On keeping the dogs from digging under..when I lived in town, I had a champion digger, a wonderful golden retriever. What I did to stop him from digging under was pound rebar into the ground,ever 3 inches. I got rebar that was 4 feet long, pounded it about 3 1/2 feet into the ground. He tried and tried to get out, but couldn't. I did that in a couple of areas around the goat pen too. I am planning on putting a fence around the barn. Had the barn been fenced in, this might not have happened. Since the dogs did not jump over, or did under, they tore the wood off the barn and came in that way. My new pen that we have been in the process of making, will have it around the perimeter as well.

I haven't caught the dog(S) yet, I got some hamburger to put in the trap, maybe that will draw them into it faster.

Thanks again for all the support!

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 27, 2001.

Cindy, I'm anguished over your loss! I know you've helped your children cope with this loss. Use it also to train them about how to act when they see a strange animal of any kind in their yard. You sound like you are taking steps to make lemonade out of the lemons dished to you. Keep going forward after grieving for your sweet goats. And persevere till you trap & kill those savage dogs! You may be saving the life of a child. If you can recoupe your financial loss - great, do it! My prayers are with you and yours.

-- Eve in FL (owenall@lwol.com), March 28, 2001.

Thanks so much. Yes, I have already been telling my children what to do in case of encountering a dog, now I am drilling it into them. I realized today that one of my children had been told wrong by one of my inlaws. I am SO glad he told me that he had been told that. I do not want him running from a large dog, that will make it chase you. We are trying to trap the dog in a trap, but I have seen it sniff the trap and go on. I am looking into setting another type of trap. We plan to get this dog and the others that we have seen with it. We got an Anatolian/Great Pyrenees mix puppy last night. She will be raised with our baby goat that was fortunately in the house at the time. I hope that this will help protect them as well. The kids are very happy about the puppy at least. :-) It takes their mind off things at least.

I have been reading most of the posts to the children. That has helped alot too. They feel like someone out there understands the sadness. THANKS!!!!

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 28, 2001.

Sounds like a good mix , you where lucky to find one so fast .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), March 28, 2001.

Yes we were lucky, thanks to Cindy in KY's post in Death of Lindsay The Amazing Lap-Goat.Thanks for your concern. Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 28, 2001.

Hi Cindy: I, too am so sorry for your loss and the sadness it has caused in your family. I apologize if this has already been discussed; but what about the trap situation? If animal control gave you a live trap - I personally wouldn't bother with it. I don't think you'll have much success with it. If you don't have other animals roaming around that might get injured, I would try a foothold trap (regular steel trap). Are you in the city limits? If so, I guess that might not be a solution after all - don't know about city ordinances. If you can't shoot it or something, you might call your local game ranger and ask him for a name or two of local trappers. If you can get one of them to come trap it, they can do it easy. Especially one that is experienced with coyotes - cause this #$%@$%#$ dog will be a piece of cake compared to trapping a coyote. Just wanted to mention all this cause those live traps are tough to catch anything in. Good luck and may God bless you, Cynthia

-- Cynthia Speer (farmsteader@gvtel.com), March 28, 2001.

I had not thought about calling the game warden!! I will do that!! This is a live trap...I have a cat that gets out, plus the neighbors have a million cats seems like...I am afraid one of them would get in a leg trap. One of my neighbors has a couple traps, but was worried about setting them up too.

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 28, 2001.

Cindy,

You definitely need a good dog! Unfortunately, I've heard the same story from people who have the wrong kind of dog--their own dogs killed the goats. Make sure you get a guardian-type dog, not just a herding dog. Around here, we have lots of stray dog packs and the coyotes are huge (they are wolf-coyote hybrids). Years ago, we tried to buy a livestock guardian dog, but couldn't afford one. We ended up with old fashioned American Working Farmcollies, and they are terrific. We never even lose a chicken, even when all the neighbors routinely lose stock. Our dogs will not tolerate predators and attack stray dogs, coyotes, possums, weasles...even hawks. They are also herding dogs and help keep the animals in the pens where they belong, even when we occasionally have a fence or gate down. I don't think we could operate here without them. I hope you can find a good dog or two. I can imagine how infuriating and devastating it would be to lose stock like you just did!

-- Sandra in TX (goatfarm@peoplescom.net), March 29, 2001.

We got an Anatolian/pyreness mix pup. She is 9 weeks old.We took her outside and one of our roosters was out where she was. She followed that rooster around all over the place. We aren't sure if she just wanted to play, or was checking him out for dinner. I guess time will tell on that one.The dog that attacked my goats looks like a pyrenees/chow mix.The neighbors across from here have seen three of them, but the other two look like pyrenees, where this one looks rounder with short thick fur that sticks straight out. Anybody know of any other type of dog that that might be?

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 29, 2001.

Sorry to hear of your loss. Wish I were closer to help out. My friend lives north of me and she has trouble every spring with bears. Last year they even chewed on the barn to get at the cows and goats. Did kill 3 of her sheep. Dragged them off somewhere. She couldn't find any trace. I have had trouble wiht neighbor dogs chasing or killing animals here as well. THe neighbors just get mad whe nI call for the mto come get their dogs!! G ofigure. Good luck in getting reimbersed for your losses. I would keep bugging them til they paid.

-- michelle (tsjheath@ainop.com), March 29, 2001.

When the forum gets so big with so many posts, I don't always get around to reading everything. With the recent information about FMD and BSE, I just couldn't bear to read another sad animal story online....Took me a while to get up the gumption to read this one. I'm so sorry that I didn't read this sooner!

Cindy, I am so sorry about your tragic circumstances. This is awful!!!!!! (And embarrasing to me, what a whiner I have been about losing one duck.....)

You are in my prayers and I will check out the other thread related to this, and see what else I can possibly do. I'm so sorry to hear about this.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), March 29, 2001.

BEARS? yikes, I am glad we don't have bears.I have to say though, I think I would prefer to just have them come up missing, then to come up on what we saw. Though, to have them come up missing is not good either!!

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

I get behind on the threads too. I understand. I have gone into the archives and saw one that I would have posted on but I over looked it. sigh..it happens, don't worry about. :-)

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

I'm very sorry to learn of your loss.I'll throw $20.00 into the restocking fund.(someone tell me where to send it)I wonder where Soni,Hillbilly,earthmama and the rest of the "Don't shoot the puppy!" crowd are now?

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), March 30, 2001.

Cindy, I'm sorry for your loss. Last year our dogs got out and killed a champion lamb and wounded another. Our renter's insurance paid the owners for their loss. I hope you find the dog and it's owners. We put our dogs down immediately, I understand that once a dog kills and tastes the blood he'll do it again. Take care and God Bless.

-- Cindy (SE In) (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

Ah, greggie dear, not that its any of your beeswax, but I have already emailed privately for the address of Cindy so I can help out, and also, I don't know how I got included in this, since I have never to my knowledge even commented on this subject (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong). It just so happens that I absolutely believe that anyone has the right to shoot a dog that is on their property uninvited! My dogs are not confined, but never leave the property (they have been trained, and we have lots of property) and the neighbors know that if ever they should invade someone else's yard, they will have no complaints from me if they shoot them, although I would appreciate a warning first.

Sorry to distract you from your stereotypes

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

greg, I'm, one of the "don't shoot a dog just because it isn't your's" crowd. If an animal tries to get in to kill my critters, it is toast even if it's a protected species. I do not believe in killing something because it exists. That attitude is no better than the one displayed by the dog(s) who committed this atrocious act. Warning shots usually do just as good of a job as actual kill shots. A guardian dog is the best answer to this kind of horror anyway.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 30, 2001.

Earthmama,I'm sorry if I painted you with an overly broad brush.Mea culpa.I'm glad that you are going to take an active part in helping these people to restock and try again.You once accused me of being an angry person(you are wrong)but I will say that this story did make me see red.I should have collected my thoughts a bit more before replying.To any one else that might think I'm one of shoot it if it moves crowd........I am not.I do feel very justified in killing to protect myself and my property(livestock)I am a steward of my land and I am responsible to protect it.If I am able to find an owner I will do so.In my experience people that are letting their animals run at large are either simply ignorant of what a dog can do given the chance or they are thoughtless oafs that there is no point in trying to enlighten.In the end it is always the animals that suffer.In my case if it is chasing or harming my animals and has no visible collar I shoot it.The posting above should be enough of an explnation why.I hope Cindy finds out who the owner of the animal or animals is and presents them with a bill.I won't respond to any posts wanting to debate the pros or cons of shooting stock killers here.This is Cindy's tragedy and it does not need to be a circus.If you really want to do something send her a couple of dollars in the mail with a letter telling her what a S.O.B. I am.

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), March 30, 2001.

greg, I agree with you on many points, and most particularly that this shouldn't turn into a debate when it is about a tragedy. I didn't mean to make it so, and I do not think you are an SOB.Take care.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 30, 2001.

Greg, apology warmly accepted!

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

Cindy,

I am so sorry for your loss. The words sound kind of shallow, but the sentiment is real. I know how easily and deeply we become attached to our critters. {I cried for the loss of my favorite turkey}

We have addressed the dig-under-the-fence issue with rocks. We are blessed with an abundance. We pile rocks around the edge of our chicken pen. Successful so far.

A woman pulled up in my drive this morning honking for someone to come out. It seems her dogs have been missing and she thinks they are around here. Two adult and two pup pit bulls.

Quote "I know they always go off hunting during the day, but they are really just big babies. Call me if you see them."

Umm....yeah....whatever you say lady.

-- Mona in OK (jascamp@ipa.net), April 04, 2001.

Yikes!! Pit bulldogs??? That is scary! I just don't understand that view point of letting dogs run. If my dogs ran all over the place I would worry that they would get hurt or something. I am happier with them where I know they are ok and not out getting into trouble. It doesn't sound shallow..thank you!!

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), April 04, 2001.