I see several refences to keeping dogs in pens, is there some advantage over the old collar and chain method? I don't mean weeks of neglect on a six foot chain.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), April 05, 2001

Answers

Besides usually just being more uncomfortable, dogs on chains in rural areas can easily become "bait" for large predators, including packs of dogs.

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), April 05, 2001.

concrete floor,, is easy to clean,, can choke itself try to get at things,, or wrap itself up. If you think about it,, a pen is nothing but a small fenced in yard

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), April 05, 2001.

I wouldn't have a dog if I had to keep it on a chain or in a pen, and I never have.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

The pen is safest for the dog and strange children {aren't they all} .Some also think chaining a dog can lead to aggression .Myine are kenneled when i am not out for there own safety.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), April 05, 2001.

I have a dog that has to stay with me a fair amount that kills my birds. No choice for him but a pen.If he was on a leash he could still attack my birds. He's not my dog or he'd be outta here. I have a dog that is mine that goes whackadoodle when it thunders and rips off the screens and doors to my house, either he stays in the pen when I am gone and there is a chance of storms or I have put him down. Since he is a wonderful dog the rest of the time, I'd rather pen him from time to time than kill him. The rest of my dogs stay in the yard when I'm not home and are great deterrents to illicit shoppers.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), April 05, 2001.

IMHO chaining a dog leaves both the dog and children unprotected. My dog is either with me, at my side or in my sight, or in a safe kennel, pen situation.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

Yep wouldn't have a dog I had to chain or pen. Though I do use a pen for my dog when we have folks over with very small children (she is large, very active and simply wags her tail too hard or knocks the kids over walking by), our dog is trained not to go off the property. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 05, 2001.

Around here if dogs are not in a fenced area they can be easy prey for coyotes and wild dogs.

Dogs SHOULD NOT run loose because no matter how big of a pet they are and how much you think they are special they WILL chase small calves if they can; break into chicken pens; kill other small animals, etc. I watched a DOG come here last Feb. and kill one of my rabbits. It was before I had my rabbit barn finished andthe dog broke into the hutch, and drug the rabbit out and broke his neck before I could get to a gun or anything. It was awful to watch...and it was basically a REALLY NICE DOG that someone was just letting run loose....

I have a news buddy who has a dog that goes everywhere in his truck with him when he's working on the farm, goes to the feed store, etc. He was letting her run loose some because she is "such a good dog and wouldn't ever chase another animal." UNTIL she chased and almost killed one of his own calves!

So unless you're with your dog 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (which is impossible) dogs should be constrained. A leash is dangerous, for the reasons I've said before, and a fenced area, the larger the better, is best.

-- SUzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

My parents live in rural yet townish sort of area--we had a dog we kept on a run. She didn't seem to mind it at all, dug all sorts of holes etc. She was very aggressive towards other dogs, so they stayed away. Their newest dog, an enormous Mastiff/Akita mix, feels very vulnerable tied. So he has a little pen with a concrete floor which he can lie on to cool off (it's in the shade). Most people seem to prefer the kennel idea, but a run might not be bad, depending on where you live.

-- Betsy in NY (sassyweitzel@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

John:

We own five dogs and run a small boarding kennel. My wife does some obedience training on the side and has studied canine behavior. Chaining is the worst way to confine a dog. It is psychologically frustrating for the dog and can cause physical injury as well for an overactive dog. Cables can break or become tangled. Imagine the force on the dog's neck and spine when he runs full force to the end of the cable. As others have said above, it also makes the dog vulnerable to attack from other dogs.

In my semi- professional opinion, dogs should never be allowed to run loose in any setting, unless they are a working dog on task, such as a guardian or herd dog. I've never known a dog who wouldn't break training when the right temptation crossed his path. We keep our pets in the house at night and when we are gone from home. Otherwise they have the run of a large fenced yard. The Great Pyrenees are confined in the goat pastures. Anything a full grown buck in rut can't get out of, the Great Pyr can't get out of either.

Kennels are a great way of confining a dog for periods, but don't leave them there 24/7. Actually, dogs are den animals and do well when confined (withing reason) in a covered kennel with a dog house inside. Many people use the crate method to house train puppies. That's exactly what a mama coyote or wolf does in the wild. Her pups are confined to the den at night. Give your dog a "den" with enough play room attached and regular social times with you and he will be happy and well adjusted. Dogs need exercise and stimulation.

The only use for a collar should be to have someplace to attach tags and a leash for walking.

I'm really at a loss as to why some people fence their livestock, but think it is essential that their dog be allowed to roam free. My neighbor's dogs roam free and one of these days he's going to be searching the shelters for them.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 05, 2001.

Our puppy loves her kennel and will go in there sometimes when Mommy and Daddy are scolding her too much!

-- Betsy in NY (sassyweitzel@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

I pen our dogs because I know I would rather sit in my yard then have Lynn chain me to a tree or stake in the yard. Why should I expect less for my dogs? They are part of my family and work our place as I do.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), April 05, 2001.

Many of the child-mauling incidents that I am aware of have involved dogs who were chained, and a child wandered too close. A dog on a chain (for extended periods) is a frustrated animal, who can become so fanatical about their tiny bit of "turf" that they will attack anyone who ventures onto it. Well, maybe not ANYONE, but any stranger or child or other dog. A miserable way to keep an animal, if you ask me.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), April 05, 2001.

I have heard that dogs on chains get frustrated. Well, I don't know about them... but I sure got frustrated when we chained our dogs in the past. We had a dog that would wind itself up in the middle of winter and freeze, I was huge and pregnant, would waddle out and undo the cord in below zero temps. If we used cable it kinked and broke in the cold. I went inside and not ten minutes later I would look out and he would be wrapped up again! If I let him off he would run wild like a puppy, and at the time we lived by a busy road that already claimed a much loved pet of three years. Well, we moved. But I will tell you the chain wraps up twigs or rugs you give them for warmth and leaves them with hardly any moving space. It tips over water dishes, it ruins trees, it breaks most metal holders with the force they use, it can choke them if they jump over a nearby fence, etc. I let him off, only to have him get in the trash or going at the chicken coop constantly. Dogs do get bored and farm animals prove to entertain with fluttering, etc. Needless to say, we gave him to a farmer without chickens and moved somewhere further off the highway. We now have a real great dog. I think she is more responsive because she is with us in the house all the time. (kennel at night when she was little) She is more in tune with the kids and they play much more with her since she is accessable to them. Just my opinion, but I think a dog needs to be a house pet. :) However, a pen would be better than a chain.

-- Brenda (brenclark@alltel.net), April 06, 2001.

OK! Thanks for all the responses folks.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), April 06, 2001.

My husband and I also 'crate trained' our dog when he was a puppy like someone had mentioned before, and it was wonderfull. He too, would go into his crate when he was in trouble for being naughty!!

-- Nancy (weebeesix@netzero.net), April 06, 2001.

I unintentionally submitted my answer when I wasn't done, so here's the other part to my response! Our German Sheperd is now too big for his crate, yet he is only 2 1/2, so still very puppyish at times, and like others, we need him to be confined when we have company that has small children or simply are uncomfortable around a dog such as ours. Does anyone have any recommendations { yes.....I realize how silly that question is on this forum!! } as to what we might look for in purchasing a dog pen? We have problems with him 'running free' too often. Where we live is rural, with 10 wooded acres for him to get deep into mischief with. I'm busy enough keeping an eye on the kids, and can't always watch him when he's out. How much $$ is TOO much to spend on one?! We've never chained him, but after the incedents of him bieng off on one of his misadventures and not being within calling distance, we are ready for something. Any ideas would be great;maybe stretch this thread a little further?......... Thanks!

-- Nancy (weebeesix@netzero.net), April 06, 2001.

Several of the chain home improvement stores (Home Depot for example) sell kennel panels so you can build your own. 6' x 12' is a decent size for what you need. The only thing I would suggest is that you put an undiggable floor in it. My two would dig under in a couple hours and off they went. They unfortunately are chained now...until I can get the front yard fenced off for them. Not the best situation but I don't let my dogs run. Enjoy your life.

-- Deborah (bearwaoman@Yahoo.com), April 07, 2001.

Another reason for a kennel is to keep females in season from being bred unless you want them to be. I know the fad now is to spay or neuter everything in sight, but some dogs need to be left intact for future breeding, and I want to be the one who decides when, or whether, our female farm collie gets bred. And it's a safe place to put them when we can't be outside with them, but for whatever reason we don't want them in the house right that moment, either. I'm thinking of building ours out of cattle panels, two high -- and with a roof over the whole thing.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 07, 2001.

Nancy, we just put up a 4 foot chain link fence around our propane tanks. Maybe 25 by 25. It is very shaded, and she will go in there, well 99% of the time, with just "Morgan in". I started with treats, usually an egg. We use the pen very rarely, mostly when very young kids are here, or very old. Some folks I use (like when Doreen visited) to test her. She failed miserably, though she is very protective of me with men around, she simply would let a women rob me blind! To many goat lady friends that she has become way to used to! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 07, 2001.

I recently finished building my yard fence. I started building the fence the day after one of my dogs was killed and partially eaten by coyotes in the front yard. (Our other dog is old and was inside that night.)

The fence surrounds three sides of the house and encloses every exterior door. It's a fairly large yard - about 1/8 acre of grass and trees. Anytime we go outside, we are in the yard. Our remaining dog, an old female named Pebbles, tried industriously to get out of the fenced yard at first, and slipped out the gate with me one evening as I took out the trash. When the coyote chorus started up she wanted BACK IN!

I built our fence out of combo cattle panels wired to t-posts. I used standard chainlink gates though. I bought 5 foot chainlink-type gate posts, cut off 6 inches with a hacksaw, and slid them over t-posts on each side of the gateway. The blade on the t-post kept the gateposts from sinking into the ground. I used standard chainlink gate hardware and put caps on the sharp tops of the gateposts.

NOTE: Don't count on combo cattle panel to keep out "visitors" if your female dog comes into heat! The smaller dogs can wriggle through.

-- dmtaylor (dmtaylor@fanninelectric.com), April 08, 2001.

To answer what size pen for a German Shepherd and how much is too much. A pen should be big enough for the dog to stand in and turn around without touching the sides or top, and small enough that it's cozy. I'm sure this will be WAY too much for most folks, but a shepherd size pen from PetSmart here in the city sells for $100 to $150.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), April 10, 2001.

We purchased a roll of chain length fence and the posts and rails seperately and then built our kennel that way. It is less expensive and easy. Add it on to the side of a building and you only need three sections.

-- Marie (imacountrygirl4ever@yahoo.com), April 12, 2001.