So what´s wrong about shoptalk, I don´t know if Leicas has any special reason to talk about them, but for sure the Q&A I´ve been following here for the last months, have been the most interesting I´ve read and talk about the intruments that I use to do what I love the most, there are for sure among us people with diferent reasons why to like or dislike Leicas, some collectos can be, I don´t have any thing against them (to be onest), but for sure this place is full of people sharing experiences about the use of their cameras, and yes M leicas users can be a very select group, and not because of the cost of it, after all we can buy a M for the same money we can buy an EOS, (of course not a new one); what can make us diferent is the radicaly diferent way to performe a craft when using a leica M and when using a SLR, and I´m not saing better or worst, but there are a lot of things that you as a photographer must develop when using a rangefinder that don´t need when using a SLR even an earlier one. And is that what we try to talk about here, it is a SHAME that such a fact can´t be easily understood by other "LEICA USERS", that seem not to have any thing to say about this simple craft.When I used a SLR system I was clear I needed a large bag, so there was not a diferent point, when usind a Leica M, I want to be ligth to move, so I apreciate the solutions other photographers have for this, is not a matter of fashion.Well i don´t know what else to say, just wanted to share to you the reasons why I like this place, hope we don´t have to go other places because of season bugs.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 24, 2001

Answers

No Mate, I'm not ashamed of the talk about the gear, it's use, and the creative/tech talk that goes with the M. But freedom of speech, like any freedom, must be protected. We also have to protect that freedom from abuse, overuse, and just plain bad manners.

I suppose everyone has a right to say what they think, but if every one talks at once, you have a cacophony. Generally, this forum has been very circumspect in it's subject matter, and good manners. I hope it stays that way. And when it doesn't, well, you can always vote with your feet! Some forums degenerate into slanging matches, with contributors venting their anger at one another. That hasn't happened here. And if it does, we should all get on the horn and ban the culprit that is bringing the level down. P Nelson

-- Paul Nelson (clrfarm@comswest.net.au), April 24, 2001.

I have followed this forum for the last few months and I must say that I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Being about to talk and read about other people's experiences with the Leica cameras is a joy to me.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea.....but I now find that I need my daily fix.

thankyou to all.

Tommy

-- Tommy Chung (dr_tommychung@hotmail.com), April 24, 2001.

I very much enjoy owning and using my new M6/50 'cron. It was expensive, yes, but not as much as other photo gear. For example, a Nikon F5 and 28-70/2.8 AFS is considerably more money. So, Leica users aren't necessariy about owning the most expensive gear. I think it is the quality feel and function. The highly precise optics. The simplicity of the instrument. The lack of technical features. They are just a joy to own and use. Deep down, I think all those who love photography want/should own and use a Leica sometime during their life. (And, I think they should also experience their own B&W processing to complete the experience). We are lucky that Leica still makes these cammeras, as they are a thing of a years gone by, a thing that perhaps only the German culture could propagate. And to talk about them, well that is way to expend the pleasure of owning and using the camera with others that share my feelings about it. Its a club of sorts, not unlike other clubs where people share other similar experiences. I think those that criticize Leica the most are those that secretly want to join our club.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), April 24, 2001.

I have been tuned in to this forum for about three months now, and I have grown to respect and look forward to the level of exchange that takes place here. In contrast, I tuned in to the LUG page at about the same time -- I then signed on for about one week, only to grow weary of the excessive bantering one had to wade through to glean any usefull information or novel ideas; so I signed off LUG, never to return. I'm very happy with this group. We seem to deal quite handily (and yet, politely) with the odd off-course post ourselves, so I don't think we need make any moves towards censorship. I alternatively think we should look at such posts as opportunities to differentiate ourselves from the norm in web-forums, as we seem to be doing currently.

As for our choice of camera... It seems that almost all of us have migrated to the M (and also the R) from some other SLR system. For me it was from Nikon. I still have my Nikons, but to be sure, the size of the outfit has dwindled, and will likely continue to do so until I reach the minimum of Nikon gear needed to accomplish what I cannot do with the M -- Probably down to one body, the 80-400 VR and 24-85 zooms. The reasons? For starters, I feel more in control of the image; the optics are exceptional; the mechanical quality is second to none; stealth; weight; and did I mention image quality? In many respects, I think our plight is similar to that of many wine lovers -- after you've gently carresed a fine Bordeaux in concert with a well prepared meal, you have a difficult time returning to jug wine and cheeseburgers!

Humbly honored to be part of this group,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 24, 2001.

Hi, For people willing to spend mega bucks pursuing perfection, who cares, I enjoy it after hard working, not to mention the audiophile group, willing to spend $500 for a WE300B tube or a pair of $2K speaker cables. But if you've listened to a good tube amp sing, you'll understand. Just like Leica, if you're able to see the difference, just enjoy it and be proud of your ability to appreciate the difference. It's a lot better than spending in the casino or cigarettes(health issue only).

-- Fred O. (yo5454@yahoo.com), April 24, 2001.

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that has been said in this thread. One thing I'd like to add though. I left the Leica homepage forum because there were a number of people posting who obviously were not Leica users but had clued into the fact that most Leica users will defend to the death our 'oddness' :-) The forum regularily sunk to low levels as we were baited, and then (myself included) vigorously (too much so) defended ourselves. I think the humour which has been shown in the few recent baiting posts on this forum is exactly the way to handle these incidents. Light humour is not what these people want, and will, I hope, usually send them on their way.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 24, 2001.

I find this lug much more interesting then the Leica User Group. I monitored it and found that it wasn't for me. I like that I can ask questions here and not have to wade through a huge amount of e-mail. As for the Leica M, I am now officially a true believer. After many years of using SLR's I sold all of my Canon gear and purchased Leica M cameras and I'll never go back. For the work I do the camera is wonderful. There is a learning curve but as time passes I get increasingly more confident with the system and the lenses simply can't be beat. I love the Leica look. I am also fascinated with the cameras history and marvel at how many memorable, significant and just plain great photos that were and still are made with M cameras. I have also had the pleasure of working with one of the photographers on this list who in my humble opinion is one of the best Leica photographers I've seen. He helped me really see the virtues of the camera in practice.

T. Gallagher

-- T. Gallagher (tgallagher10@yahoo.com), April 24, 2001.

I agree about the comments concerning the LUG. I find it of little value and inhabitated by some very rude egocentric individuals as well. This forum is relaxed and very informative. I look forward to reading the posts here.

-- matt veld (mahv@xtra.co.nz), April 24, 2001.

We are lucky that Leica still makes these cammeras, as they are a thing of a years gone by, a thing that perhaps only the German culture could propagate.

One should think carefully before making statements like this. In fact, the culture in which Leica evolved, one in which it, like many other German industries, chose to be part of, propagated the Third Reich. Leica made no effort to employ Jewish people, to protect them, or, like many individuals and a small number of people, to help Jews, Gypsies and others who were slaughtered. Germany is different now, but the Germany in which much of Leica's innovation took place in is not one that should in any way be celebrated.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 24, 2001.

Good point, Jeff. Certainly the Leica is about perfectionism. At its best, perfection can be about peak performances, such as Galina Mezentzeva and Constantin Zaclinsky dancing a perfect Giselle. Doing something as well as humans can do it. Eisenstadt's shot of the sailor kissing the nurse in times square. Leontyne Price as Carmen. Renoir's painting of the little girl with the watering can. Meryl Streep as Sophie Zawistoska. At its worst, it can be about wishing to build a master race, and exterminating everybody who doesn't meet the standard. Or Hiroshima. Every person exhibits a best and a worst side given enough time. This appears to be true of nations, too. Germany seems to be kinder and gentler these days.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), April 25, 2001.

We are lucky that Leica still makes these cammeras, as they are a thing of a years gone by, a thing that perhaps only the German culture could propagate.

The above seems to me to be a statement of opinion, maybe even fact. To deny that the Leica evolved out of the Germany of the 1920's and 30's is to deny that this period existed. The old 'we are doomed to repeat that which we choose to forget'.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 25, 2001.

Jeff Spirer wrote:

>>> Leica made no effort to employ Jewish people, to protect them, or, like many individuals and a small number of people, to help Jews, Gypsies and others who were slaughtered. <<<

Jeff, can you substantiate this statement? I had heard the opposite was true and I'm not in a position to determine which is closer to the truth.

-- Douglas Herr (telyt@earthlink.net), April 25, 2001.

"Be careful", sage advice indeed. However, I wasn’t trying to invoke any prejudice.

At the end of WWII, industrial nations converted from wartime to peacetime industry. Respecting photographic gear in particular, many excellent rangefinder camera systems were developed and introduced. The Nikon M and S cameras made in occupied Japan, for example. Canon, Contax, Kodak, and many other makers were active in this area. During the 1950’s the rangefinder ranked supreme in the market.

In 1954 (nine years after the war ended), Leica introduced the M3 in an effort to catch-up with its competition. A successful camera indeed. But the competition continued and in 1959 Nikon introduced the F series SLR, a huge success by any measure. During the 1960’ and 1970’s the SLR came to dominate the market and most rangefinder models were discontinued. Leica attempted to modernize the M line with the M5, which failed. Then, reverted to the M6, which continued through the 1980’s and 1990’s. When I spoke of the German culture propagating the quality of Leica generally and the rangefinder specifically, I was thinking about the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s (and now the 00’s). All the other rangefinders had fallen victim to the market, Leica persisted. Good for us!

As far as an innocent victims go, I propose that recent history has demonstrated that during the "propagation" period I discussed, one has been far more like to die from an American, British, Israeli, Iraqi, Iranian, Russian, etc., and etc. bullet than a German bullet.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), April 25, 2001.

I'm new to this site and joined it in order to talk and learn about Leica Ms. I think it is not crazy to assume that mostly everybody else who is here has similar reasons so that I 'd like to make a sugestion: lets talk and learn about our matter of interest and just don't ever never answer messages which are away of this line of thinking. Simple and potentialy efective to keep the site clean of contents that belong somewhere else.

-- Ivan Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), April 25, 2001.

But, Ivan, the connection between the Leica and the events in Germany in the 30's and 40's are bound to occur to all of us Leica users at some point. These anxieties are relevant, and real, and one should feel free to air them here when they come up. There's no virtue in being in denial.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), April 25, 2001.

To criticize Leica for having survived the 30s and 40s is pointless. You might as well condemn every other German company that managed to do so. I'm not aware that Leitz/Leica has any skeletons in the cupboard from the Nazi era, which, after all, lasted little more than a decade. Leica products and the excellence thereof are a tribute to German engineering, not politics.

Ray Moth

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), April 26, 2001.

"But, Ivan, the connection between the Leica and the events in Germany in the 30's and 40's are bound to occur to all of us Leica users at some point. These anxieties are relevant, and real, and one should feel free to air them here when they come up. There's no virtue in being in denial."

They've never occurred to me and I don't see them as being at all relevant. After all, when I buy a Palm V organiser I don't agonise about the 2 million or so Vietnamese civilians slaughtered by the USA during the 60's and 70's. Does that mean I'm in denial? I don't think so.

BTW, I'm German myself, which probably explains my indifference to the shadow of the past.

-- rob appleby (rob@robertappleby.com), April 26, 2001.

the Leica is an instrument, but what we run through it, is for certain our entire culture, is great we can have a place for that too, I belive what we see through our finders is not what´s phisicaly in forn of us, but our most hidden past.I most admit I stopped seeing my analist since joint this room, photographers tendt to keep things in our minds for long, great place for psicoanalisis, at least for me.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 26, 2001.

Yes, a Leica is a camera only, an instrument that was created with talented engineers, and as for me, NOT any politics, nazism, nationalism, communism, racism and any other words like these, the worst human race contrived.

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), April 26, 2001.

Victor, easy enough to say that you don't worry about politics if you live in comfort in a free nation, which of course I am assuming you do. But if you live in, say Bosnia, for example, the politics of everything becomes suspect. A matter of perspective, I'd say.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 26, 2001.

Jews played an important role in the development of German camera industry, for example, Dr. Emanual Goldberg, as head of R&D at Zeiss played pivotal role in the development of Contax rangefinder camera and the technique of microdot photography.

Another prominant Jewish inventor is Walter Zapp, who invented the Minox spy camera.

It is dubious logic to associate German camera with "Nazi culture"

A few years ago, I read somwhere that Ernst Leitz and family were sympathical to Jews, and protected them during the Nazi era. However, I cannot recall the source.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), April 26, 2001.

Well, the Ur-Leica was designed in 1913, and the Leica I was produced in the 1920s. Oskar Barnack was therefore really a man of the Second Reich and the Weimar Republic not the Third Reich, I therefore do not see that Leica are particularly tainted with the crimes of that regime, but they did continue to operate during the war and during the Nazi era. Many (most) Germans did too. The crimes of the Third Reich are not particularly concentrated in Leica if at all, excepting the fact that they were part of the industrial complex of that nation. They cannot be compared with such giants as Krupp/Thyssen- Krupp, Volkswagen, or IG Farben/BASF who undoubtedly participated in the active rearmament of Germany and/or the Final Solution or used massive amounts of poorly treated slave labor. Germans do share a collective guilt of that era it is true, but the spirit of Leica seems to me to have little to do with anything particularly Nazi - unless, of course, camera and optical excellence are intrinsically evil.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), April 27, 2001.

The sins of the fathers shall not be visited on the children.

It has indeed been a long time since the war, and we are talking about the grandchildren of wartime Germans who are producing the grandchild of a camera originally made after the war.

The moral link between Leicas and Nazis is tenuous indeed. Why resuscitate and amplify the evil of the latter by using the former as a reminder?

That being said, there is a certain neo-Nazi/totalitarian nostalgia sub-culture that celebrates Nazi-ism, the German war machine of WWII, efficiency, and Germanic machinery such as Panzers, Mercedes Benz and Leica. Sherry Krauter, a used Leica repair and spare-parts outfit, reportedly sells Nazi paraphernalia, and may well be an example of such an attitude.

But attack and destroy the attitude, not the inanimate objects it attaches to, especially when those objects (cameras) have such an innocent use, namely amateur photography.

For me, my Leica reminds me of the thousands of happy pictures of my (beleagured!) family that I have taken. And, BTW, my Nikon does not remind me of the Japanese war-mongers of yesteryear either.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 27, 2001.

In the above post I state

"Sherry Krauter, a used Leica repair and spare-parts outfit, reportedly sells Nazi paraphernalia, and may well be an example of such an attitude".

I have had no contact with Ms. Sherry Krauter, and have repeated what I have read¡¡in the internet.

Similarly, I have also read that Ms. Krauter is a superbly talented Leica repairperson-of-last-resort.

Based solely upon my own reflection on the matter, wish to withdraw my comment without reservation.¡¡

The rest of my post stands as is.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 27, 2001.

I have a sentimental reason to feel part of what went on in europe during WWII, my Grand Grand Mother, wife of the British vice-consul in my hometown in mexico, was from her youth a close friend of Mr. Winston Churchill, they never return to England, but we keep some letters from those years, so my attitude against Nazism is clear, on the other hand about Mrs.Krauter I can only tell she did a magnificent work on one of my M4-P´s, at a reasonable price too, I remember her as a very kind person from her mails.I am planing to send a M3 that needs of her tender,soon.Hope she doesn´t take this personal any way.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 27, 2001.

To Bob Todrick: In my 54 I pretty know that nobody in this world, even a child, is free from politics and other worst words and problems which human race contrived. Please, be advised that I am living in the country that hard to call as free country, there are a great corruption and beggary here, journalists are killed (Gongadze and others I know), there is no independent press here, and so on…..but what? There are enough places for me everywhere, but this forum, to fight these horror things. I think that there are tiny beautiful islands in this great ocean of problems to spend a short time, and one of such islands is this forum, as for me. Of course, this forum is open for any discussion and for everybody, and this is great.

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), April 27, 2001.

Rob, what I meant was, we probably all have one day out of the year when we wonder if our cameras are, as Robin put it, "tainted with the crimes of that regime." If this has never troubled you, fine. But it apparently troubled Jeff, as it has me at times. And I think this is an appropriate forum for such a discussion.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), April 27, 2001.

h ttp://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010428/pl/nazi_files_9.html

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), April 28, 2001.

The original posting has gone off on an interesting and thought-provoking tangent. The issue of Leica's involvement with the Nazi regime was raised in a letter to PopPhoto, sometime last year. If I can find it, I'll quote it. According to the magazine, Leica DID actually make efforts to help victims of the Reich. It did not use slave labour for example. I cannot confirm this, but perhaps someone else could find the original response in PopPhoto or has some more information? Obviously Leica made military-issue cameras emblazoned with the swastika, but then the British army also used Leicas during WWII according to one book I read. It is true that Germany has a long established tradition of producing high-quality finely tooled products of all sorts, made by "Feinmechaniker". This is a fine tradition I believe. I think, however, that associating any product with a country's worst excesses is fallacious. Products are tainted by association but it is not they that are at fault, whether they are Volkswagens, Mercedes or Leicas from Germany, or Toyotas and Mitsubishis from Japan. Surely the actions of people and the use to which products are put are more important. Put another way: how much better off the world would have been if Hitler had just devoted himself to building autobahns and Volkswagens - and encouraging the makers of Leicas, Contax et al - instead of invading Poland and launching World War II!

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), April 29, 2001.

In 1943, the Royal Air Force put up an ad requesting people to hand in their Leica and Contax cameras, "It will help the country and the war effort"; and also promised to pay the highest price for them. "The R.A.F needs your LEICA or CONTAX NOW" it said.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), April 29, 2001.

General Motors, Standard Oil, Ford, ITT, and other US corporations contributed more to the Nazis than Leica.

-- John Fleetwood (johnfleetwood@hotmail.com), April 29, 2001.

If people read what I wrote when I did take this off-topic, it is the German culture that was referenced in the posting I commented on. This started because one poster made an obviously positive comment about the culture in which Leica (and other cameras) arose. The fact is that the German culture in which Leica thrived was pretty ugly yet someone chose to make a positive comment about it without any reservations.

The US industrial participation in the Third Reich, and the government's post-war participation in employing Nazis in the armed forces is well-documented, and irrelevant to the point I was making. Why people feel this justifies Leica's non-opposition to the Nazis is beyond me, it's ridiculously faulty thinking.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 30, 2001.

It isn't necessary to refer to me as "one poster", it is clear that I am Dan Brown.

I don't think that the German culture (the collective activities of the majority of German people) is "pretty ugly" at all. My feeling is that the atrocities of the Nazi regime were the responsibility of a relatively small segment of the German population, the hard core Nazi's, their greedy henchmen, and young German men inducted into the armed services in a wave of rhetoric and propaganda. As reprehensible as these acts were, they were propagated by a few, and I don't believe they reflect the sentiments of the majority of German people, then or now. But how and when do you give your life for your principles in time of war? When the German miltiary orders cameras from your factory? When the SS comes and takes the Jewish employees from your camera factory? When you first hear of the atrocities committed by your govenment? When you strongly suspect so?

Many of the atrocities were committed at gun point (actual or constructive). I wonder how I would respond in such a situation? I hope I would take a bullet rather than commit such acts. I hope my Christian resolve would be so strong.

One thing that is certainly unfair is to condemn the German people of today for the acts of their fore-fathers.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), April 30, 2001.

At this point the casual observer might be wondering about Sherry's good name. Has anyone talked to her lately?

-- Jim Shields (jim.shields@tasis.ch), April 30, 2001.

The rise of fascism and all its attendant evils in the 20th century was (and is) a global phenomenon, not the product of one people's culture.

-- John Fleetwood (johnfleetwood@hotmail.com), April 30, 2001.

Racism is still going very strong allover the glove, nations and cultures, not only in the first world, here in Mexico we are suffering very badly from our political culture heritage, seems like every day is for us more dificult to see our similarities and judge ourselves mostly for our diferences, when we do such a thing out of a craft, can be even constructive, when is done as a way of judge people, it becomes chaos.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 30, 2001.

To me, German culture is Goethe, Schiller, Heine, Kant, Bach, Beethoven, Gauss, Planck, Heisenberg a brilliant culture

The new generation has already draw a line from the past, they had pay and pay huge amount of compensations to the victims, build momuments and they have not glorified the past event in WWII in their history text books their students in school, and their politician do not visit Nazi shrine.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), May 01, 2001.

Please, folks, let's get a bit of perspective in all this. Martin's talking about famous people who contributed, collectively, to the German culture over hundreds of years. That is far more important and has made a far bigger impact than the depraved "Third Reich" that lasted little more than a decade! IMHO here is far more to be admired in German history and culture than there is to be despised.

Regards, Ray Moth

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 02, 2001.

and Mr Barnack put in our hands a clever instrument, latter Mr Stain (if i´m rigth), gave us the M´s, we can add them to that list, and if we think of optics, well I don´t remember names, but nice optics they gave us too. Yes for me they are a nation of sensible people.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 02, 2001.

While we're talking about different cultures: apparently the world's biggest rangefinders were made by Nippon Kogakyu (now Nikon) to sight the big guns of the WWII Japanese battleships. Does that mean you shouldn't buy Nikons? Mitsubishi Zeros bombed Pearl Harbor. Don't buy Mitsubishi cars?

It really does seem naive to link culture and politics. Camera-making had nothing to do with Nazism. Atrocities do provoke understandable emotion though. My mother, whose family was oppressed by the Soviets, once "got rid" of a Russian camera I believe. Mind you, I don't know how good it was....

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), May 02, 2001.

Following my own reasoning I didn't want to participate in this discusion any longer. But I read the thread again today and my conclusion was that most participants are doing a honest effort to clarify what they have somewhere in their minds regarding War attrocities and how they could be (though lightly) related with their love affair with Leicas. But lack of real sound information on real facts that could help us clarify Leica's position during war time doesn't help to make that honest effort fruitful. Now coming to the cultural issue, which has become the most important one in this forum to my best understanding: I live in Chile, I'm 53 and lived through Allende's and Pinochet´s eras. I have also read Erich Fromm's "Fear of Liberty" (I assume that would be its english tittle, I don't remember having read the original one but the Spanish version "El Miedo a la Libertad") and believe me: the book is the most clever explanation I have come accross regarding the way societies can get into such a mess and involve so many otherwise nice and considered people in activities they feel ashamed of later on; to the point they will hardly recognice that what the newspapers say is true and that killed people are dead at all. As a consequence I believe that it is not fair enough to blame chilean or german people of acting the way we did: any other culture would, if the "proper" circumstances arise in their history. Remember what happened during the French revolution, the Spanish Civil War, the military regime in Argentina, or so many other examples that could be easily (sadly) pointed out. It is not to germans or chileans. Unfortunately it is to us humans, may be. What to do? I can only think of raising our children in the ideal of respecting others to the same extent we want to be respected ourselves. No matter whether they are germans, jews, blacks, native people, Catholics, Baptists or whatever. Even nazis? I know it's hard to do. Even within our families things get hard to manage when these circumstances flood our society. I have seen my children cry trying to understand what happened here and had them read the same book. That is on the "technical" side of this subject (I'm an engineer): On the human side, good education on substancial subjects like philosophy, religion, logics (no kidding), history, literature and art (here is where my Leicas come helpful, even if to the most modest extent) could help. Those disciplines train people to think in a way which is most possibly helpful when nothing else around is. I hope ... Sorry for this long "speach". I didn't intended to do it when I began writing. But I suspect that I'm a slave of my own history myself. Regards and thanks for your patience if you did come this long through this. Ivan

-- Ivan Barrientos (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 05, 2001.

This question end up in a diferent topic, I was asking about some agresive postings and answers we had had here before, of course complaining about the lack of respect for this forum, we end up talking about nizism, but I belive in the end everything is related and relative.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 05, 2001.

To last R. Watson's observation: Yes, indeed . . .! Best regards Iván

-- Ivan Barrientos (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 05, 2001.