There is no question about the fact that we have the best College level educational system in the world. I teach graduate students. My course is the last formal course that they get before they complete their PhD. Tomorrow, we will be discussing the possible mechanism for the down regulation of an important pathogen gene. These are good students. About half are from the US. A mixture of large universities and small colleges. The other half come from Europe, SA or Asia. These aren't large courses. Usually, me and 10 or so students.

On Monday, I brought up the name of Paul Joesph Goebbels. No one had heard of him. Makes you wonder where history has gone.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Answers

But to be fair, while Goebbels was certainly an important figure in the Nazi regime, most people won't remember the second-tier players. Hitler's name will certainly come up, perhaps followed by the names immediately associated with the death camps (Himmler? Maybe even Mengele).

To prove my point, ask your students to name the past 10 VICE presidents of the USA. Most will be able to name the _presidents_, but not the vices.

(And to make the analogy a closer fit with Goebbels, how many can name the president's press secretaries? I can't even remember Clinton's, and he just left office!!![g])

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

(Joe Lockhart! I just remembered!)

:)

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

To the tune of Colonel Bogey's March:

Hitler has only got one ball.
Goering, he has two - but small.
Himmler has something similar.
And Goebbels has no balls at all!

If school kids and foot soldiers (who sang this little ditty for harmless amusement) were aware of the Minister of Propaganda on a par with Reichs Marshalls Himmler and Goering, then he was a bit more prominent than any Presidential press secretary, don't you think?

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Poole:

You disappoint me. Even you don't know about Paul Joesph Goebbels. Without him and the Berlin Gau, there would have been no Hitler; not to mention the camps.

As a starting point, let me recommend Goebbels by Ralf Georg Reuth, R. Piper GmbH & Co, KG, Munchen 1990; English translation copyright 1993, by Harcourt Brace & Company. Good read.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

By-the-by:

This is soft stuff; I can give you references to harder stuff when you have finished. The infighting between Goering and Goebbels is interesting. In the end, Goebbels won. I guess that is all that matters.

Cheers,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

But Z,

Are we also not permitted to disagree? I don't think that the Nazi Minister of Propoganda was as important as you seem to think. In particular, I am convinced that Hitler would have risen to power quite handily without Goebbels help.

In the early days, the National Socialist Party *WAS* Hitler. Goebbels didn't join until much later (Strasser introduced him to Hitler and Goebbels despised Hitler at first; in fact, Goebbels called for Hitler's expulsion from the party[g]).

I'm not sure what you think I need to "know" about the man. He was an oily-voiced, club-footed, womanizing liar who fed the German masses a steady diet of half-truths right up to the very end. Where we disagree is in the assumption that he was uniquely or specially suited to that task. The Nazis had plenty of liars who could have done just as good a job. Once Josef figured out that Hitler's star was ascending, he flattered and kiss-butt'd his way into a sinecure.

Not knowing about little Josef is one thing. Disagreeing about his prominence and importance is another entirely, I think that's where we disagree.

Shoot, ask any soldier who served in the Pacific who Tokyo Rose was and they could tell you at length. But she was hardly indispensible to the Japanese war effort, and she could have easily been replaced with little material difference in the eventual outcome.

I say the same is true of lil' Josef Goebbels. You can certainly disagree.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Z,

I'll recommend a book of my own: The Life And Death Of Adolph Hitler by Robert Payne. Also, IMNHO, the best overall history of the war is Total War by Calvocoressi and Wint.

And if we're going to delve into trivia, I'll warn you: for some insane reason, WWII has been a pseudo-hobby of mine for years. I can get vicious. :)

(Most people don't know, for example, who Geli Rabaul was and what a critical figure she was in Hitler's rise to power. I'd give her a FAR more important place than Goebbels.)

(But again, you can disagree. That's just my opinion.)

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

"Is History Important?" I think that interpreting history is more important than names and dates and general history trivia. Problem is there is always disagreement on the meaning of history assuming that we can even agree on what really happened in the first place.

Still, it is essential to try and IMO computers and TV help. Call me a lightweight but I think that the filmed history of WWII on the History channel is fantastic.

BTW, it is not only our knowledge of history that suffers. How about our ignorance of science, math, language, literature, the arts, etc.

Somehow we muddle through.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Poole:

Geli Rabaul was and what a critical figure she was in Hitler's rise to power. I'd give her a FAR more important place than Goebbels.)

(But again, you can disagree. That's just my opinion.)

I do disagree. But you may be correct and that is why Geli was chosen to replace Hitler when he committed suicide. OOPS, I got that wrong; it was Goebbels. She wasn't about at the time. Oh well, it was only for a short time. *<)))

Cheers,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Z,

The reason is, I think (and this is just my opinion), part of Hitler's psyche. Some of the new stuff about Geli's relationship to Hitler claims that they had a VERY kinky sexual affair going on. But I don't think so; most of the people who actually knew and worked with Hitler said that, while he wasn't opposed to accepting favors from females, he tended toward prudishness.

In sum, his relationship to his niece was one of unrequitted love. He wanted her but couldn't have her. But he also refused to let anyone ELSE have her; she finally committed suicide. It almost destroyed Hitler and afterwards, those closest to him said that he had changed; he completely lost what little humanity he'd had up to the point.

(Crude example: the pre-Geli Hitler was perfectly willing to leave it at confiscating the property of Jews and forcing them to leave Germany. The post-Geli Hitler wanted blood and bodies.)

There's no doubt that her death haunted him for the rest of his life. Not only did he keep a little shrine to her at Berchtesgarden, when Paulus surrendered at Stalingrad, Hitler remarked to Keitel that Geli had been braver, because she was willing to die rather than surrender.

I know there are plenty who would disagree with me; you're not the only one. Some would even claim that Goebbels, and not Hitler, was really behind The Third Reich, in a sense. I think that's a terrible stretch. I've seen the same claims made for Himmler and Goering. It depends on who's writing the book. :)

By the way (and completely off topic), the best evidence I've seen is that Goering (who was otherwise a near-complete moron) was responsible for burning the Reichstag.

Also by the way, I believe that Bormann was more responsible for doing Goering in than Goebbels. For some inexplicable reason, even as the Third Reich was dying all around the bunker, Bormann wanted power.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Poole:

We could discuss this stuff for hours; unfortunately I am short of time at the moment. One observation which is reflected by many in the movement:

"All the attributes of a superman were ascribed to him, for he never let anyone get close to him, least of all women". [Speer, Inside the Third Reich, 100f] The Nazi's recorded everything. Those records indicate that Goebbels was instrumental in the party coming to power. Then again, because of his position [which was far beyond propaganda], Goebbels, had the power to determine what into those records. So, you could be as correct as me or anyone else. He certainly wasn't one to hide his light under a basket.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Z,

Oh, Goebbels played a major role. I've re-read what I've written and I think I went too far the other way: I didn't mean to imply that he was completely inconsequential.

Besides, we've strayed from your original question and that's MY fault. I'm a trivia buff. :)

(yes: history is important.)

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Sorry to intrude... Poole, pit's true that the Nazi party "was" Hitler to begin with, but perhaps you'll recall the rather unsuccessful "beer hall putsch" arranged by H. himself. Goebbels joined the Nazis before Hitler gained any real power, and, of course, his mastery of propaganda contributed significantly to this "rise" of National Socialism. Before Goebbels, Hitler was a joke.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2001