Since the Supreme Court has ruled that you can be jailed at the officers discretion for littering, or supposedly having a license plate light go out, I am really completely seriously considering forgoing all of their bleeding permission slips and destructions of personal liberty and considering getting a horse and a cart. Really. What do you think?

I am so incredibly saddened and angry over this decision. I think they should have just said that we are now in a police state and had better learn to love it. US CONSTITUTION ****VOID***** where prohibited by law.

Can they just stop you and jail you for driving a horse and cart? Like if the horse's bridle is a different color than the cart? They don't like the looks of the horse? Can you actually go down the road unmolested with a horse? I'm really wondering about it. Thanks!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), April 24, 2001

Answers

Here in Pa. the rules of the road are the same for buggies as for cars.They must have lights at night and slow moving vehicle triangles by day.As for cop harrasmnet .....well you can lose your drivers license for drinking a beer while wearing roller skates.WE DO LIVE IN A POLICE STATE! You just can't "teach" freedom to people that have never had it.

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), April 24, 2001.

Ha! Ha! You don't even have to have a license plate light go out. You don't even have to be in the car. In fact you don't even have to own a car. If they want to hassle you they are going to find a way to do it and a justification for doing so, even if you are just walking down the road. I have seen so many of these scenarios that I can tell you exactly how it goes. The officer stops you for some silly reason. Then he asks for your ID. If you do not have some kind of ID you can bet you are going to jail right now. If you ask what is his probable cause for questioning you, the reply is usually that they need to ascertain that you are not some kind of criminal. (Guilty until proven innocent). If you do not comply with all the oficers questions he arrests you for obstruction of justice(now there's a bad joke). When you get to jail they want you to comply with the booking procedures. If you do not, including giving your fingerprints, you get no trial. You also get no regular cell, unless you begin spreading discontent by informing the other prisoners, in which case they will put you far,far away from them, maybe in solitary confinment. You get no phone call to alert your family why you haven't come home yet, or that you need something. Anything you had in your pockets, including money, may or may not be returned to you after you get out of jail. At this point it is a waiting game. They tell you that you will be in there indefinitely until you comply with booking procedures because they just want to make sure you are not a mass murderer or something like that. The fact is that if you consistently refuse to cooperate they will get sick and tired of you and let you out within a few days. If you break down after a few hours or a day and give in, you have just made it harder for the next guy with principles. They can steal your fingerprints and photo(make a grotesque face)but unless you sign them they are not valid. And when you get out you should read the newspaper account of what happened! You will be amazed! It is VERY important to decide what your principles are,why you feel this way, and what you will and will not do BEFORE you get stopped by a policeman. Then stick to it and do not be swayed from your convictions. You should visit the Embassy of Heaven website.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 25, 2001.

I am just trying to come up with a method of moving myself about that they can't try to claim authority over....Man, it's really sad. Rebekah, I have visited their site and I know they have had similar altercations with the law as Waco, Weaver, Baptist Temple, the Grays, and more. Heard something awhile back about another church in CA that was being seiged as well.

This is just really, really bad, that the "Supreme" court can't even comprehend the 4th is quite the indictment, isn't it? Ah nuts. Guess there's no escaping it, but it still makes me sad.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), April 25, 2001.

I didn't mean to make you more depressed Doreen! Sorry, guess I am just cynical, partly because of our location and former experiences. The really sad thing is tha many cops have little knowledge of the constitution and what is and is not legal!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 25, 2001.

I didn't mean to make you more depressed Doreen! Sorry, guess I am just cynical, partly because of our location and former experiences. The really sad thing is tha many cops have little knowledge of the constitution and what is and is not legal!

On a lighter note, have you considered the bicycle? They are very efficient, improve your health, very easy on the environment, and very economical, even if you get a good one. For years this was our main transportation and still is to a large extent. You can get chains for winter use. Cops really don't even think about hassling a bicyclist unless you are doing something absolutely crazy.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 25, 2001.

Rules of the road for horses are interesting...

First off... You won't be littering!! Most harnesses come with a 'tail bag' for just that purpose. However, you might want to really check out the horse before taking him home - he might asphixiate (sp??) you!!! Most horses under harness find that the best time to s**t and f**t. Doesn't matter breed, sex, or when they were fed, either!!

You have to have lights on it if you travel past dusk. One on each side, mounted in the front of the carriage. You have to have one of those flourescent 'caution' plates (don't know what they are called - the bright orange triangles). You must have some form of breaking system.

You are required to be as far off of the road as possible, so as to affect motorized vehicles as little as possible. And, you still must have liability insurance. Sorry... I don't know how the Amish and Mennonites get away without it. I don't know if you are required to have similar coverage to motor vehicles, though... We did, but we had a business, too.

I drove part-time for a friend of mine. We did city tours in Elmhurst, and many parades as we were a part of a Civil War reenacting unit. I've wanted my own horse and buggy since I was a teenager. So, I've got plenty of experience with cops, laws, etc etc. I intend to give up the auto in the drive for a horse and buggy just as soon as I can!! They are a lot cheaper than cars no matter how much insurance you have to get!

Some cautions - get your horse as used to loud and sudden noises as you can!! We didn't have a problem because our horse was used to cannon fire... Haven't met a car horn yet that could compare!! Also, make sure that they are about as fearless of every little thing you can think of. If he steps on a can, you don't want him diving for cover into the traffic!

In buying a harness, make sure that ALL of the leather and stitching are in excellent condition. This applies to new as well as used. Some harnesses are made more for photo shoots than actual driving.

Buggies: the longer the tongues, the larger the turn. Get one with cutouts for the wheels to turn under the carriage... Almost tipped one with flat-bottomed sides. Also, they are harder to back with wheels that won't go under.

I would suggest that even if your horse has already been trained to drive, find an Amish farmer willing to train him more. They are trained to voice commands, and I have never seen a better-behaved animal than one that has spent a few weeks with them. We had one that nobody could break of a couple minor bad habits... Came back as close to a real angel as a horse can get!! And, they don't cost you a fortune either... we had it done for $300, and the horse was boarded, groomed and worked daily, trained, fed, played with ,etc for three months.

If you need any more info, just ask!!

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), April 25, 2001.

Thanks so much, Sue! I guess I will call my insurance agent and ask about it. I would just ride regular old western style to move ME, but to haul stuff, I need a buggy or wagon. A travois would woek for some stuff, but not everything.

Rebekah, you didn't make me more depressed, I knew all of that stuff, I just wanted to fantasize a little bit, like "they won't bug me "if", and I don't know how these goofy fools who call themselves the highest (well, maybe that's it!) court in the land can read this that way. Not your fault at all!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), April 25, 2001.

Oh, bicycling is great, but I have roached kness and that causes a bit of a problem from time to time.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), April 25, 2001.

I'll throw in my two cents, for what ever it is worth, although Sue has had much more experience with it than I have. I think it depends on where you are about the liability insurance. My friend drives in Oklahoma, appearing in parades and just plain old using the team and wagon as a means of transportation. He doesn't have to have liability insurance. You do have to have the reflective triangle on the back, and lights on it if you are driving after dark. You don't have to have brakes, as he drove old Buck with the buggy all over several counties and buggies don't generally have brakes. His didn't. The horse is the brake. When he stops or slows, the buggy pushes against him. Also, they don't require tail bags, although most large cities do. It is a local thing, not a state thing as far as I can tell. I don't believe Texas requires tail bags or brakes or insurance, although it might be a good thing to have. The world is law suite crazy. Also, my friend prefers the new nylon harness if you are not going for the "old" look. He says that you never have to worry if it gets wet, just take it off and hang it up to dry. You also don't have to oil it. If you are using collars, which is recommended if you are going to pull much of a load, the collars will be leather and have to be oiled. I'm still hoping to get a horse drawn vehicle of some type, preferably a wagon, but the rig and harness is too much for me to come up with just yet.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), April 29, 2001.

The last time I owned a buggy, I lived in a state that required it to have a license plate on it, I don't live there any more.

Doreen, get yourself a nice Missouri Foxtrotter to ride and a couple of pack mules or those really cute burros for hauling the groceries home. don't we all want to live near a town that has horses tied up in front of the general store?

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), May 02, 2001.

Hi doreen this is the first time at this site and i like it! any way i cant tell you what the rules are where you live but i'd like to say that iv given up cars altogether dont even have a lic. anymore and its the best thing iv done i think im getting healther for it iv been riding a bicycle and iv used my horse under sadle and with buggy and there isnt anything more pleaserable then to ride down some quiet country roads with your horse, allthough you my find your self wondering just what you were thinking when its the middle of winter. but i wont be getting a car non to soon :-)

-- Ray S (no1cowboy_is@hotmail.com), June 11, 2002.

I didn't eat them!

-- vooo (duct_tape@hotmail.com), June 11, 2004.