I am interested in an M6 and will never use flash with this camera. Does the M6 TTL have any advantages other then the flash TTL metering? If not I would go the slightly smaller slightly cheaper "classic" route.

-- Hank Graber (hgraber@narrativerooms.com), April 26, 2001

Answers

The TTL version has one advantage over a "Classic" (not an official Leica term, by the way): The TTL versions are available at Grey Market prices NEW (around $1600 or so at Delta International). A scratched up used Classic will some times cost you more. Why bother with used?

Just ignore the TTL feature; the rest of the camera is the same, (just a tad taller). =^)

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), April 26, 2001.

Another couple of advantages to the TTL: the meter is slightly more sensitive; there's now a central "proper exposure" dot between the over- and under-exposure LED's; the shutter speed dial can be turned easily with the index finger of your right hand.

If you need a lens, Leica has apparently just announced a new U.S. rebate plan (through August 2001) -- $200 off an M6TTL and M lens. Wait for a "Leica Day" at your favorite dealer, get another 10 percent off and you're doing pretty well -- plus you get the 3-year U.S. Passport Warranty.

Downside to the M6TTL(This is potential flame bait, I know): The film advance mechanism of every M6TTL I've ever handled feels flimsier than the one on the M6 "Classic." I've not heard of any wind head/clutch failures on these cameras, but I wonder. . . .

-- Robert Schneider (robslaurat@earthlink.net), April 26, 2001.

One other advantage to the M6TTL... The shutter speed dial, aside from being larger and easier to change with just your trigger finger, rotates in the OPPOSITE direction of all the previous M's, which means the LED arrows in the viewfinder now point out the correct direction to move both the aperture ring on the lens AND the shutter- speed dial for correct exposure. (With the M6, you must turn the shutter dial in the opposite direction of the metering arrows to get correct exposure.)

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 26, 2001.

Regarding the feel of the film wind: I have owned both the M6 "classic" and the M6TTL. I prefer the feel of the M6TTL film wind over that of the older classic. There is a difference, and apparently it's a subjective matter as to which is "better".

Regarding the shutter dial and viewfinder LEDs, I feel these are also improvements over the older M6.

I don't use flash much either with the M6. Disregarding the TTL feature, I still prefer the newer camera.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), April 26, 2001.

The dial only turns the wrong way if you are thinking of the direction of the front surface of the dial edge: the direction in which your finger is moving. But if you reverse your thinking to visualize the direction of the back edge of the dial, then it's going the same direction as the LED's.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), April 27, 2001.

I have learned to envision the shutter speed dial of my M6 as a light valve. As this valve is turned counter-clockwise, it seems to be opening something (like a gas valve), therefore adding more light to the exposure. If the subject light is on the bright side, I then tighten down, by turning clockwise, the shutter speed "valve." I can also do this with my single left index finger as I am holding the camera to my right eye. A larger dial would be nice, but I'm not sure how easily I would adjust to the dial having to be turned in the opposite direction for exposure adjustments.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 27, 2001.

Yes, but if you buy an old IIIg like I did this all becomes irrelavent :-)

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), April 27, 2001.

Bob/Tony:

I understand, and agree with both of your points (as well as Bob's re the IIIg!), but with the M6TTL, setting the exposure is intuitively correct right out of the gate, as opposed to having to "learn" the idiosyncrocies of a system.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 27, 2001.

Some points which may or may not have significance for some individuals: The rotation of the TTL's shutter dial is now in keeping with the R cameras. But for anyone who uses Nikon (F-F4, FM2, etc. with "real" shutter dials") as their SLR and switches back and forth the M6TTL is backwards. The M6TTL will not fire *any* kind of flash from the hot-shoe if the camera batteries are dead. The M6TTL has been reported to have a greater battery consumption than the non-TTL. Anyone who has or might someday want an earlier M body, the shutter dial direction could be annoying. Anyone who uses or might want a Visoflex, will need the VISO III or at least it's prism, as the VISO II prism will not clear the taller top plate of the M6TTL. As to the other issues, the increased low-end meter sensitivity and central "null" meter LED are advantages to the TTL; the TTL flash itself is probably the least of its advantages IMO. Internal quality is something only someone who has disassembled them could tell. New techniques and materials have made cost-cutting and quality improvement possible simultaneously. Whether that's the case with the TTL I can't say. I own 2 "classic" M6's, the only reason I'd get a TTL would be for the 0.58 finder which isn't available in a classic, and more than likely I'd get a second Hexar RF rather than the 0.58 M6. But if I were buying into Leica today I'd get a TTL, for no other reason than the prices are close and the TTL's are newer and less likely to need a CLA any time soon. And of course a new one would have a warranty.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 27, 2001.

The classic seems for me a perfect Leica if you´re not using flash, and there most be places where you can find them new.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 27, 2001.

What is it that makes us Leica owners/users so adverse to change? Some pine for the "old" M3, others, me included, wish for a new one with all the trimmings but sized like a 3F or G. In this rather pointless issue of TTl vs Non-TTL, should we not rather consider that TTL is a feature not offered heretofore that does not lower the camera's capability but enhances it. Use it or not that is your choice, but isn't it nice to have IF the occasion presented itself? Yet some of us still, while decrying those so-called advances, praise the Hexar for all its electronic doo-dads that purport to make it easier to use. Like it or not, TTL IS progressive. Will we blast an inclusion of more electronics from Leica in the yet to come M(7) as it is bound to happen? Let's face it we, as a group, are rather anachronistic in our hands on approach to photography. The world is moving on, though...we still have choices, thanks to Leica, Konica, Cosina et al.

J-D

-- Jean-David Borges (jdborges@home.com), April 27, 2001.

J-D:

Of course you are correct, but in the original question Hank specifically asked if there were any reasons OTHER than TTL flash metering for choosing the TTL over the classic.

Regards,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 27, 2001.

Jack, In the strict semantic sense, of course you are absolutely correct. But then, isn't TTL reason enough to opt for the most current design? :-)

J-D

-- Jean-David Borges (jdborges@home.com), April 27, 2001.

Thanks for the comments. I didn't mention I was interested in the .85x finder - the premium that commands in used pre-TTL cameras together with the advice posted have made my choice a no-brainer, the M6 TTL.

-- Hank Graber (hgraber@narrativerooms.com), April 27, 2001.

My how things just seem to go around. Back in '95, I traded my M3 in for a M6. When Leica came out with the TTL, I felt like I had been cheated a bit, as I didn't have their best, top shelf! Only to find out that I now have a "classic"!!! I've been taking photos with my little old classic, and .... well, if you wait long enough, things just seem to go your way. Isn't it funny, how...

-- Paul Nelson (clrfarm@comswest.net.au), April 27, 2001.

I use manual SLRs in addition to the M6. All have a shutter speed dial which turns in the traditional clockwise direction to increase shutter speed. If I got an M6 TTL, I'd have to mentally "switch gears" every time I used it, not exactly what you'd call "intuitive".

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), April 27, 2001.

Guys, trust me... I also used to shoot with old manual Nikons that turned the other way... Compared with what I needed to learn to become proficient with the M, the metering direction of the shutter dial was intuitive!

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), April 28, 2001.

Other thing that comes to my mind when buying "new designed items" is if they are going to be as good as old already known ones, and for certain, electronics and that kind of stuff makes me nervous, I would wait some time to heard coments on it´s performace and then make a desition, I dont own a M6 yet but for sure my first one will be a used classic, it has a lot to do with budget too.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.