Hi, I've been sitting on an offer for the last several months. I've got this guy who is willing to sell me an M4 Black Paint Body. The serial number checks out, everything seems to be original. The camera is working perfectly (Original seal is gone). He is asking 2000.00$ US (In fact, he is really asking 3000.00$ CAN). The condition is 9/10. Vulcanite is OK, no dents, bottom plate is 75% brass. I'm currently using an M6 Classic with a 35mm Summilux ASPH (use to own 50 an 90 but sold them both because I never use them). I dont really need a second body, I'm not sure what to do. What would you do? What about the asking price?

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 20, 2001

Answers

If you don't want it, send him my way -- I'll buy it!

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), May 20, 2001.

I am not a collector per-se. I still have my M4, use it only to keep it from gumming up, and with a 21 S/A when I shoot landscapes with my Hasselblad as I'm already dealing with a handheld meter. In your position I would want a second body as a backup (and a few more lenses!)but it would be another M6, for significantly less than the black paint M4, which I would rather see in the loving hands of a collector who would appreaciate it for whatever collectors appreciate brassy old cameras for.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 20, 2001.

Eric - you've just reduced your kit to the practical minimum - I applaud your self-discipline and awareness of your real needs. So why go and recomplicate?

You don't _need_ second body unless you're a professional user, and with only one lens, what are you going to do with the M4? It's a pretty but impractical thing to have.

Stick to your minimal kit. I wish I could. Less is more.

-- rob appleby (rob@robertappleby.com), May 20, 2001.

I was just thinking about the tendancy to acquire things we don't really need--I am unfortunately guilty of it as well. I'm not sure exactly what the enjoyment of wherehousing an item like a camera is, and it is obvious that past a certain point, you can't really use any more cameras. A friend of mine told me he thought nice cameras and polished coated glass were like jewelry for men--and one look around a camera swap or on line chat forum sort of confirms this. Maybe its that extra chromosone at work-who knows.

I ended up with a few nice old roll film folders and a Rolleifelx 3.5 F that I hardly ever use, as well as an extra 4 or 5 Nikkor lenses that mostly sit in a camera bag. I find when I first make a purchase of "something I always wanted" (but don't need), I use it for a while, and then it becomes a nice looking paperweight sitting on a shelf. Eventually, I end up selling the stuff. At least these days with e-bay, I can try just about anything I want out, and sell it later without losing a bundle. I think that may actually be the reason I buy stuff now that I wouldn't before--I know I can always sell it without a loss later.

-- Andrew schank (aschank@flash.net), May 20, 2001.

Andrew - on the jewelry for men aspect - a friend of mine who owns a camera shop here in Modena told me he had a guy come in with an M4 over his shoulder - looking for batteries for his digital camera! The M4 was unloaded and unused, the digital camera sat in his pocket until he wanted to take a snap.

I'm not comparing Eric to this kind of thing, of course - as I said, I applaud his ability to get rid of unused stuff.

I recently looked through my gear - which is pretty limited - to see if there was anything I could in all conscience get rid of. The rapidwinders - had I ever got a shot just due to the fact of having them on the cameras? The accessory 35mm viewfinder - could I really do without it? The softies? I admit to my shame that I still have it all. ;-)

I often dream - and I think Leica has this appeal - of just one body one lens. But it's not practical. If Eric can do it and not need anything else, then he's a better man than I am.

-- rob appleby (rob@robertappleby.com), May 20, 2001.

Compare to most of you guys, I'm pretty "new" to photography (I've started in 1995 with a Pratika and a 50mm!). In less than 6 years, I've made 3 years of studies in Professional Photography in a college, 2 1/2 years as a manual enlarger tech in a color lab and I've just been accepted at University to do a BFA in photography.

When I started everything, I didn't know squat about photography (technique and style) and equipment. I learn it all reading books, trial and error and experiences. I bought 4 Linhof (Master Technika, Super Technika 3, Baby Linhof 6X9 and Kardan Super Color, 3 Schneider lenses and a Voightlander Apo-Lanthar 135mm), 5 medium format (Rolleiflex 2.8 GX, three 500cm, one Bronica SQ-a , lens and back) and countless 35mm camera (3 M6, 2 M4-p (one black and a 1913-1983 Kit), a Black Chrome M4 ELC, and more than 10 lenses, 4 Nikon and lenses ranging from 24mm to 180mm and acces.).

Only after all that I realise that I could do everything I wanted with a 35mm Summilux and a M6. I also have a Hasselblad 500cm with a 50mm CF FLE, 80mm CF and PME viewer for the rest of my work. I dont do any contracts or "professional" work. This give me the chance to really concentrate on my personnal need (And money for other hobby!).

The reason I started the thread about the M4 Black Paint is the following; How many of you are hitting their head for not buying a 1960 Fender Jazz Bass (Stacked Knobs) or a 1957 Fender Precision bass while they had the chance? I've just turn 25 and I'm wondering if I should'nt jump on this occasion while it is there. It is only a question of "point of views" (Hope it translate properly, my english is far from perfect!) and every inputs you can give me is appreciate.

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 20, 2001.

For God's sake, BUY IT, Eric! It's a fair price. You can always resell it, but if it makes you happy, keep it; it ain't that much money...

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), May 20, 2001.

Eric: You have made very clear that you don't need the camera. So, since you post this question I think that assuming that you just want it is not too unsafe an assumption no matter why you ask (need ..?) an advise or somebody elses's opinion. If that were the case, I can only pass the same advise I got from Shutterbug a while ago and which I already posted somewhere here before. It has to do with the presentation Otha C. Spencer makes of McKeown's Price Guide to Antique & Classic Cameras and McKweon's Law: "The price of an antique camera is entirely dependent upon the moods of the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction" and its corollaries: (1) "If you pass up a chance to buy a camera you really want, you will never have that chance again" and (2) "If you buy a camera because you know you will never have the chance again, a better example of the same camera will be offered to you a week later for a much lower price". If it were of any interest to you I can tell you what I do: If I want the camera and can afford it (even if scarcely)I just buy it though I know I already own more cameras than I can really use in the spare time I have (though not as many as you own). I always think that I can sell it later on if necessary or convenient, though I seldom do. At least, from a financial point of view and given the economical conditions here, the camera (a Leica, I mean) will be worth more than the same money in the bank at any given time, save of McKeown's Law. In short: Do you really want the camera? If you do, buy it. That is what I would do. Concerning the price: follow McKweon. Regards and best of luck, Eric.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 20, 2001.

Actually, Eric, you do need a second Leica body. You just don't realize it. Right now I have Kodachrome 64 in the M2 and Fuji 400 in the M6. And of course, one might need color in one camera and B&W in the other. Or two different B&W choices.

It's just a question of knowing how to rationalize properly.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), May 20, 2001.

Eric, please forgive my presumption, but judging by what you say, the expense associated with the purchase may not be of concern to you.

Buy it-its a collectible classic (though I'm not a collector), its a good price, and you can always flog it for about what you got it for.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), May 21, 2001.

You are a professional photographer. If things work out, you might get famous, in which case the very rare Black M4 becomes a very very rare, black M4 once owned by Eric Laurence.

Think of how much poorer the camera collecting world would be if David Douglas Duncan hadn't got Leica to engrave his black M4's.

It is your duty to do this, to give future generations of camera collectors something to lust after. (After they have retrieved Neil Armstrong's Hasselblad :)

-- Mark Wrathall (wrathall@laudaair.com), May 21, 2001.

Thank you all, I feel less guilty already. I'm gonna sleep on it for about a week but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna buy it. If I ever change my mind and decide to sell it, I will post a thread in the For Sale.

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 24, 2001.

I have seen M4´s cheaper around, so if what you need is an extra body is very understandable, but at that cost!,you could add a good lens to your system, on the collectr´s point of view can be interesting maybe, a M4 most be a joy to handle, so an M2 or 3 at a fraction of that cost. Talking about extra bodies, I feel is better to have similar bodies when using more than one, the feel of a M2,3,4 or 5, is so diferent than M4-2,M4P or M6, switching from one kind to another in hurry situations can disconcentrate,

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 25, 2001.

R Watson,

About your reply, I did own several lens in the past (Two 35mm Summicron and One Summilux Asph, Three 50mm Summicron and One Elmar, One 90mm Elmarit and a Tele-Elmarit and also a 135mm something something) and dont need no new "good lens". The Collector point of view is was appeal to me at the moment, I can hardly justify the purchase but the temptation is there. I disagree with you about the smooth transition between M2, M3, M4 and M5. To me, they are very differents from each other. Going from M6 to M4P, M4-2, or M4 is quite natural indeed (I use only the 35mm, I dont use the light meter in the M6).

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 25, 2001.

I own few M bodies, but I work with one at a time usualy, and 35 is my favourite lens, on asignments I like to have three lenses on three bodies, usualy two M4P and a M3, and always have to get use to the M3 when switch to it, the M4P with a 35 and a 28 are the most demanded, when using the M3 for long time it happens the same that with M4P, maybe the winding feel or chrome body, well it is "easier" to hold one body and stay with it.I begun to buy extra bodies when few years ago I got paranoic of Leica close down, now I can´t get rid of them, but use them all.

-- R Watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 25, 2001.