We want a standard Black paint M camera, they give us five limited edition black paint with limited edition matching lenses. We want the top plate engraving, they give us "Japan Only" half top plate engrave M6. I would kill to have a current version M3, limited M6J. I want them to be daring and introduce a meterless M body, they come up with a Leica O reissue.

I must say that in the lens area, what they offer is exceptionnal and I am VERY VERY please(Think about 28mm Summicron ASPH, 35mm Summilux ASPH, 50mm Summicron and Noctilux, 75mm Summilux...Wow!). Body Aesthetic or choices of finish is irrelevant in the art of photography and I agree but come on! Why are they afraid to listen to us? We are the ones paying for the goods? Did I hear one of you ask for more Platinum/Titanium plated camera? Raise your hand thoses who are ready to buy a limited edition Gold metal flake finish with matching lens kit.

Leica is a great compagny with great products. Love the M6 and the range of lens available. If they want to sell me an extra body (I'm weak, I can sometime give in to temptation even thought I can hardly justify the purchase), they better start listening!

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001

Answers

Eric, have you encountered genuine German service? I suspect all Germans are, deep inside their hearts, bureaucrats, their collective unconscious remembering forever the times when powerful rulers such as Friedrich II. of Prussia could do whatever they wanted. (Up to now dealing with German authorities is a nightmare, even for people who don't want to immigrate--the immigration authorities are openly hostile.) You see? A citizen coming to a Behörde (office of a state institution) wants something, e.g. to have his Bundespersonalausweis extended. A customer, too, wants something, e.g. to have an M6 black paint. These people want something. I.e., they are not satisfied with what the all-caring state is offering. Outragesous!

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), May 28, 2001.

"Does Leica ever listen?" --That's a rhetorical question, right? Because you KNOW they aren't paying attention to anything you're writing right now, don't you? :-) I agree with you completely.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001.

I hear many complaints about Leica, about their product's features or about the lack of them. They generally start with Leica should do this or that and imply that only an idiot could behave as they do. I happen to disagree. Leica is a very small manufacturer with a limited market for its products, limited research and developement resources and a limited capacity for production. Leica at present is also not in very good financial shape. If Nikon or Canon had a model with similar production/profit numbers it would be dropped from the line. It is not unknown for Leica to be out of stock of their very basic items such as a 35/2 Asph! Their main market is not the serious photographer but the seriously rich. The fact they do all they can to make a great camera is wonderful but the fact that their sales disappear when stock markets slump is a reality they cannot ignore.

They make limited numbers of special finish cameras because they sell PERIOD. It is one area that is extremely profitable and, while you and I are not interested, it would be very foolish for them to stop their production. It helps pay for the expensive developement of items we do love (35/1.4A, 24/2.8A, 21/2.8A, 90/2.0AA, 135/3.4A, 28/2A...). Things that would be very small mistakes in other companies almost put Leica out of business (CL, R8).

If I may also comment on some of your specific requests. Leica does not make a meterless M because the difference in production cost is minimal and the market is flooded with meterless M cameras (M3/2/4/4-2/4-P) at prices they could not match. Leica has been unwilling to offer black paint as a regular option because "normal" people complain when their cameras are easily scratched. This generates a warranty and customer satisfaction problem which is why Leica developed black chrome in the first place!

If you want a black paint or engraved finish, it is easily and expensively done. Simply buy a titanium M6 and have it engraved and painted by one of the refinishers out there. If you want an M6J then buy one! I have seen several in the $5000US range. If you really want these features they are out there.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), May 28, 2001.

Amen to John Collier!

-- Jean-David Borges (jdborges@home.com), May 28, 2001.

John as usual hits it on the head. Meterless M? - take the batteries out of your M6. Go ahead - make it _less_ useful!

-- rob appleby (rob@robertappleby.com), May 28, 2001.

Just for reference, here's a quick guide to various European mentalities:

In England, everything is permitted except that which is forbidden. In Germany, everything is forbidden except that which is permitted. In Russia, everything is forbidden, including that which is permitted. In France, everything is permitted, including that which is forbidden.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), May 28, 2001.

John, I'd really like to agree with you about Leica because usually I do agree with you, but in the long term Leica has shown that their response time to the whims of their customers is dreadful. Look how long it took them to put a meter in the things, for instance, and the way they did it nearly killed the company. Or how long they took to develop a second-rate SLR. Or screw mount lenses--is it really all that hard to go back to putting a screwmount on the back of a lens as an option? It only took them 40 years to figure it out, after the Japanese beat them to it and proved it could really sell (yet another time).

Yes, 30 years ago their customers didn't like black paint. Their customers of the time also made station wagons popular, and wore funny clothes. Times change, and there's no reason not to evaluate things once in a while and change with them, even if it means going back to something that was popular before, and then fell out of favor (chrome cameras are one such step they DID take), but that's something Leica's not been too quick to do.

You can argue that Leica is on the edge and doesn't need to be prodded to try something as risky as something different or new--or to retry something old. You could also validly assume that the very reason they're on the edge is BECAUSE they limp along the same old path as long as possible, until the loss of blood forces them to change something or die.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001.

Agree wholeheartedly with John. For all the people that carp about what Leica doesn't make, here's a couple of hints. You want and auto-exp M6 with power wind just like the Hexar. BUY THE HEXAR. You want an R8 that does everything a Canon EOS 1v does. BUY THE CANON. Leica makes a bit of money on a specific use camera that a small percentage of people need and or appreciate. A $6000.00 copy of the Hexar we don't need.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), May 28, 2001.

Michael,

I think that you have legitimate concerns but many of your concerns are a result of Leica's lack of resources. Their initial no expense spared foray into metered bodies (CL and M5) was not a commercial nor qc success (yes they have worked out the bugs "now" but "then" is when it mattered). When the right technology was available they could not afford to do the developement work for such a limited number of units per year. They finally partnered with an Technical University to develop the circuitry for the M6. They spent a heap of money on the R8, which they have not recovered, but at least the circuitry in the R8 has given a new lease on life for the M6TTL (the M6 boards were so obsolete they were having trouble sourcing them) and may allow the mythical M6E to appear (do not hold your breath).

On the screw mount lens front, they have been deleted (I think) as they were slow sellers and can be had for a quite a bargin right now (less than their M mount counterparts) which may indicate they lost money on the offering.

I think your limping along metaphor may be stating things a little strongly but any other company would have dropped the M camera long ago (which they nearly did). I think they have been brilliantly successful in the lens design area and this is probably what has kept them selling their bodies. I too have my wish list but I realise that we form a very small and not particularly profitable minority of Leica's business.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), May 28, 2001.

John,

If I may quote you: "I too have my wish list but I realise that we form a very small and not particularly profitable minority of Leica's business."

I don't agree, I believe that the amateur photographer is the bread and butter of the M system. Like I mention in my first post, I'm VERY VERY happy about the M6 and the current range of lens (What more could we ask? This is rhetorical question people, dont bother anwsering...).

They make extra cash selling limited edition camera to collector, fine with me. If they need to do that to come up with new lens design or avoiding bankrupcy, so be it. I just find it funny that a lot of amateur have a Wish List with the word Black Paint or Top plate engraving and that only the collector get what they ask for. Why not both? We are not asking for Autofocus or Digital M (Silly ideas). We only wish for a finish that was available in 1925 on the Leica I, model A and for a engraving that was standard in 1932, Leica II, Model D. They dont need to put alot of money in R&D to come up with that, they already offer it! (Limited)

About the paint finish durability and warranty issue, it does'nt add up. If I buy a new car and someone scratch the finish, that is my problem, I will have to deal with my insurance, not the warranty. They use to offer black chrome, chrome and titanium finish, why not black paint?

If the idea of offering a standard meterless M in black paint finish with top plate engraving for the everyday user seems like a "dumb" product to some, I wonder what they think about a "gold plated/lizard skin/artificial rarity/display only" camera.

Last thing I'll mention, I'm a user of the Leica M system because I believe that it is the best equipment money can buy for what I need. The issue about finish or engraving is like asking a taxi driver what car color would he like, it is completely irrelevant to it purpose.

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001.

Just want to thanks Olivier Schrinner and Dave Jenkins for their comments. Mentalities can be very strong and does'nt need logic to be justify. This was a point that I didn't consider went I wrote my thread.

-- Eric Laurence (Edgar1976@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001.

Eric, you must realize that what you are asking is impossible. You state that it's the amatuers that keep Leica going, and they should listen to us. You want a nice black finish. You state that you don't want digital or A/F so Leica shouldn't bother with that. But what about the amateurs (or pros for that matter) who do want these features. What about myself that would love to have a CL sized body but with the ruggendness of the M series (which I sort of have in my IIIg). What about the shooter who wants a pseudo-Hexar. If Leica 'listened' to everyone, and tried to react accordingly they'd be broke. You may think Black finish is the cats pajamas, but I for example don't give a wit about it. All Leica can do (as any company does) is do market research and do their best. As John states, I think their best is to continue with the M series, and allow us, whether on an M or an R to use their wonderful lenses.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), May 29, 2001.

As an aside, I recently came across one of the Leica M6TTL Black Paint models that had been returned because the buyer felt the paint was too thin! :-)

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), May 29, 2001.

I feel lucky Leitz decided to do things their own way and not as a response to the big market like many camera companies, if I remember well after the M4 leica was up to give up M cameras and lenses production, but thank´s to some entusiasts Leitz went on, now they make colective models because they sell them, you know I want to be able to use leica M cameras all my life, I don´t know how long I will live, but I´m sure I won´t need an extra body unless mine get stolen, I wish Leica would think like when the M3 was in production, they made the M2 for a cheaper model, now they could make a cheaper M6 model, something like a M4, with out meter or so, to be sell as an extra body for prefesionals, but as they have made all those cameras so well in the past the market doesn´t need it, so as a leica user I can´t but feel as in a paradise.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 29, 2001.

I agree with John. Eric check out some (many) of the posts about "what Leica should do" and you will find many, often to my mind, foolish suggestions. I think the black paint and no meter issue is a classic red herring. It already sells a black paint version at a premium and all sorts of anniversary issues to collectors who are obssessed with the cameras as "art" or whatever. But the fact remains is that most people buy Leicas for the their legendery quality, history and simplicity - they need to maximise production of what professionals and others actually will buy rather than talk about at LUG type meetings. They are aware that too much diversification will kill their profits - they are cautious of change - it is expensive and may not work. They are a little paternalistic, I agree, but this is I think from a deep knowledge of what is really feasable for a small company like theirs to do and what is not. I for one think their concentration on good optics is just fine. The M-body is a success and this is the least of their worries - will the Contax Gs, Konica RF, Voigtlander still be producing their cameras in 10-15 years time? What do you think?

Also from what most people seem to want they look for an auto shutter. Leica did and do all that with the Leica-R, and these models change all the time (albeit slower than the Japanese SLRs). Why fiddle with a classic? If they discontinue the M6 and sell an M7 it would be a brave move. It is possible, but any improvements in an M7 are bound not to be controversial.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), June 01, 2001.

They'll listen when people stop buying their products. However, I don't know if eventually it will really be good for us, the consumers.

It took Mercedes Benz a while to realize that not a lot of people were buying their cars because they were building them too well. The last well-made Benz was the 123 body (300D, 280E, etc.), which stopped production in 1985 to make room for the more plastic 124 bodies and E classes thereafter. They thought that people didn't really need that kind of quality in cars, so to cut cost they favored the consumer-oriented approach into their automobiles. They're still expensive, but people are not paying for the same quality as they did back when. Try telling Rolls Royce to do the same thing. They just won't listen until low-sales and bankruptcy comes knocking at their door.

It's the same with Leica. They make special products that's just not that consumer-oriented because it's more catered to the consumers who can afford to and are willing to pay a fortune for whatever they dish out. For those who aren't willing to do that, there's always the second-hand market.

-- Ron Gregorio (rongregorio@hotmail.com), June 07, 2001.